Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Cutie Gwen]

Lucario does well in Japan semi-consistently, seeing multiple top 8s at their majors there. Look up Tsu. Recently he managed 7th in a tournament where the likes of Abadango and Nietono didn't make top 8. He has some under the radar but good placings in the US as well. At Evo Day got 13h. At SSC Day also took out Zero finishing at 17th.

Lucas is a similar story. Plenty of top 8s at majors in Japan thanks to Taheita who also got 17th at SSC.

Huh. I thought this was just bull. Then again, I hear Japan's got a different meta. I want to know why those characters are deemed good (AKA more than results), because I remember Lucario always getting flak

 

[Fatmanonice]

It's really hard to argue that Cloud is second best when this summer was a testament of Cloud mains getting repeatedly shut down and Cloud pockets having luke warm success overall aside from CEO. Doubles? Yes, an argument could definitely be made there but I can't see it for singles. Top ten? Sure. Top three? I think that's a stretch given what we've seen as of late. Maybe M2K was onto something when he said that Cloud's nerfs were much more relevant than we originally thought.

I'd also argue that Villager is better than Pikachu and Metaknight but since you can only count relevant Villager players on half a hand and one of them has consistently humiliated a good number of the best players in the world, there's not enough data to really push this idea. Ranai's in a whole different league and Villager has yet to get the kind of boost characters like Megaman have gotten.

 

[outfoxd]

DH gotta win a major to move anywhere.

Not that I'm real surprised or bothered, there's just three guys consistently doing stuff with him so I can't get the pitchforks out over it.

 

[meticulousboy]

Last time, Peach was higher than Lucario. What do you think caused Lucario to be higher than Peach this time around? As a Peach main and Lucario secondary, I'm curious.
Gunla

 

[Luigi player]

Suddenly: a new Tier List..!

My opinions on it:

Looks pretty good overall! Definitely more accurate to the current metagame than the previous one.

I don't see Diddy as first, but probably top 3 (it's really hard to say, but there is no indication for any character to be the best it seems. Though it still "feels" like Sheik could take the cake).

A few letter-shifts I'd make:
Lucas from E to D.
Explained: Taiheita doesn't "suddenly" bring in (really great) results for Lucas. He has done so for quite a bit. Often gets top 8/5 at big, stacked japanese events, so I think he's better than the ones below him. Taiheitas results are consistent and good enough to warrant that. Although it seems like he's the only one doing work with him, so it might be a bit difficult to judge. And from experience (against a german Lucas named Clade) the character can really do work. He's great at zoning and at CQC, where he has so many fast and quick options that you have be ready for all of them all the time or else you'll get grabbed and eat a lot of % or could get hoo-hah'd from his kill-confirm. His (especially) standing grab has so little lag that it's not even free to punish him for it.

Olimar from E to D.
Explaination: It looks like Olimar is doing a lot of work lately. Dabuz pulls him out more and more. Shuton's been doing work with him in Japan... the character seems like he still has some potential that is overlooked by many (not too surprising since not many people are even playing him). Though it's probably safe to put him where he's now for the time being.

Roy from G to F.
Explaination: Roy seems to be underrated by many. He's definitely not a great character, but I really don't see him being "superduper bad" like most people seem to think. I see him as being a letter above the one he's currently dwelling in.


That's probably it. I could think for quite a few "maybe this one could rise too", but not every character can be in the same tier/letter, so it's hard to say, lol.
Imo I'd say everything until G is viable to some degree. With G and below being pretty bad..
(so I guess you could say I'd move the letter F up to Mid Tier).

I also think Mewtwo is overrated by many people since Abadangos Pound? win. Mewtwo is a good/great character, but definitely not a flawless one. I'm sure Mewtwo players know the restrictions that it holds and how it can sometimes feel playing it. I would probably put it at the top of B tier, but I'm not sure, the 10th place it now has isn't unwarranted, but I really don't see it being better than that (10th).

 

[EternalFlare]

It's really hard to argue that Cloud is second best when this summer was a testament of Cloud mains getting repeatedly shut down and Cloud pockets having luke warm success overall aside from CEO. Doubles? Yes, an argument could definitely be made there but I can't see it for singles. Top ten? Sure. Top three? I think that's a stretch given what we've seen as of late. Maybe M2K was onto something when he said that Cloud's nerfs were much more relevant than we originally thought.

I'd also argue that Villager is better than Pikachu and Metaknight but since you can only count relevant Villager players on half a hand and one of them has consistently humiliated a good number of the best players in the world, there's not enough data to really push this idea. Ranai's in a whole different league and Villager has yet to get the kind of boost characters like Megaman have gotten.

A lot of characters only have 1 or 2 reps at top level. So that isn't much of an argument for results not mattering. Without Abadango, most wouldn't consider Mewtwo to be top 10 material.

As it stands Villager has great results. 2 different Villagers have made top 8s in Japan multiple times and Ranai got 5th at Evo. That's definitely way better than what Pikachu has done in months.

As for Cloud I agree he's a bit overrated and probably isn't top 3. Plenty of players have pocket Clouds. Komokiri and Leo have used Cloud for big wins but don't solo main him. And as far as solo mains go, no player is really consistent with him. That shouldn't the case if he really was a top 3 character.

I mean just look at Diddy and Sheik. Multiple different players are very consistent at the highest levels with them solo. They don't need to switch off. The same can't be said for Cloud. I definitely think we need to see someone do well at a couple of super majors going all Cloud before we can call him top 3.

 

[EternalFlare]

Suddenly: a new Tier List..!

My opinions on it:

Looks pretty good overall! Definitely more accurate to the current metagame than the previous one.

I don't see Diddy as first, but probably top 3 (it's really hard to say, but there is no indication for any character to be the best it seems. Though it still "feels" like Sheik could take the cake).

A few letter-shifts I'd make:
Lucas from E to D.
Explained: Taiheita doesn't "suddenly" bring in (really great) results for Lucas. He has done so for quite a bit. Often gets top 8/5 at big, stacked japanese events, so I think he's better than the ones below him. Taiheitas results are consistent and good enough to warrant that. Although it seems like he's the only one doing work with him, so it might be a bit difficult to judge. And from experience (against a german Lucas named Clade) the character can really do work. He's great at zoning and at CQC, where he has so many fast and quick options that you have be ready for all of them all the time or else you'll get grabbed and eat a lot of % or could get hoo-hah'd from his kill-confirm. His (especially) standing grab has so little lag that it's not even free to punish him for it.

Olimar from E to D.
Explaination: It looks like Olimar is doing a lot of work lately. Dabuz pulls him out more and more. Shuton's been doing work with him in Japan... the character seems like he still has some potential that is overlooked by many (not too surprising since not many people are even playing him). Though it's probably safe to put him where he's now for the time being.

Roy from G to F.
Explaination: Roy seems to be underrated by many. He's definitely not a great character, but I really don't see him being "superduper bad" like most people seem to think. I seem him as being a letter above the one he's currently dwelling in.


That's probably it. I could think for quite a few "maybe this one could rise too", but not every character can be in the same tier/letter, so it's hard to say, lol.
Imo I'd say everything until G is viable to some degree. With G and below being pretty bad..
(so I guess you could say I'd move the letter F up to Mid Tier).

I also think Mewtwo is overrated by many people since Abadangos Pound? win. Mewtwo is a good/great character, but definitely not a flawless one. I'm sure Mewtwo players know the restrictions that it holds and how it can sometimes feel playing it. I would probably put it at the top of B tier, but I'm not sure, the 10th place it now has isn't unwarranted, but I really don't see it being better than that (10th).

Abadango has been really consistent since then. It's not like he won one major then failed to make top 8 ever again.

In fact, going purely off results Mewtwo is more consistent than any other DLC character including Cloud. No Cloud, is nearly as consistent at nationals.

With that said Abadango does not exclusively use Mewtwo. He's used MK for crucial matchups. I don't know if Peach or Rosalina are bad for Mewtwo so it's hard to say how he'd fair without MK.

Regardless if Rosalina is still considered top 5 despite her best tournament rep also using Olimar in several matchups, then Mewtwo is definitely fair game for at least top 10.

 

[Yikarur]

This tier list looks good to me overall. But Sheik is clearly above Cloud at least.
It's a bit confusing that Cloud is really placed at second.
Looking at the data Clouds average placing was 2.18. and the standard deviation is the second lowest, which means he's relatively close to having been voted as the best character even though he's lacking results at majors (which can be explained with a lack of represention as we saw this weekend)
but I like the list overall. It's my personal Top3, but I didn't really expect Cloud to be voted that high.

 

[EternalFlare]

Huh. I thought this was just bull. Then again, I hear Japan's got a different meta. I want to know why those characters are deemed good (AKA more than results), because I remember Lucario always getting flak

I'm no Lucario expert but I'll try to explain what makes him good.

Lucario is one of the worst characters without aura. He lacks mobility and has poor hitboxes that aren't very safe on block and has very low unreliable kill power.

But with aura+rage (which stacks) he becomes one of the scariest.

The way shield stun works in the game is it's based off damage. So when his moves start doing more damage they do way more shield stun and thus become much safer on block (more shield damage+it takes longer to act out of block). He destroys shields in general with aura which makes people reluctant to try to block against him which opens them up for stray hits and neutral B. Not only this but his range on some moves becomes way better in general.

So as long as Lucario can live long enough to make aura a big factor (which isn't hard as he's quite heavy), he becomes a major threat. Basically Lucario is never out of it, he can be down a ton and then kill you at 40. At a human level a character like this is always going to put up results because no one is perfect, everyone is eventually going to get hit and his reward just becomes so absurdly high at the right percents.

That's not to say there aren't other characters with moves that kill at absurdly low percents. But with them their super early kill moves are generally very unsafe. If you get hit by a Bowser/Ganon Fsmash, you can hardly complain. But Lucario's safe and fairly fast moves are what end up letting him kill just as early if not earlier (bair, uair, side B, shadow Ball etc).

His disadvantage state is decent as well. He has an excellent B-reverse and counter to help mix up his landings with. His up B has no hitbox (for the most part) but unlike Rosalina's he can slightly curve it and it gains way more distance with rage+aura.

 

[BJN39]

We'd finally gotten Zelda's place right on the first try and now she's not last what r u doing 4br

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Swap Cloud and Mario's placements, and I'm good with it. There is some wiggle-room in the S-A tiers, but it's pretty solid as a whole.

 

[Fenny]

I think this tier list is a hot mess in general tbh.

What is Cloud doing in 2nd when Sheik has almost regularly outperformed him since he was released?
What is Ryu doing in 9th as if he's done as consistently well as anyone in A tier?
Why are Pikachu and Ness so high when both have fallen off results wise, especially Ness?
Why is Marth below Corrin when Marth is far more dominant in top competitive play?
Why is Lucina seventeen places below Marth when the only diff between them is the tipper?

I can go on, like Lucas' placement in comparison to Ness' or Roy being ridiculously low, but if I go into detail about it all I'll be here all day.

 

[blackghost]

if this tier list is really centered on results then bayo,cloud, and ryu are all too high. everyone gets pitchforks for pika lack of results but these three (especially ryu) aren't exactly impressive either. also what warrants falcon being that high?

 

[EternalFlare]

I think this tier list is a hot mess in general tbh.

What is Cloud doing in 2nd when Sheik has almost regularly outperformed him since he was released?
What is Ryu doing in 9th as if he's done as consistently well as anyone in A tier?
Why are Pikachu and Ness so high when both have fallen off results wise, especially Ness?
Why is Marth below Corrin when Marth is far more dominant in top competitive play?
Why is Lucina seventeen places below Marth when the only diff between them is the tipper?

I can go on, like Lucas' placement in comparison to Ness' or Roy being ridiculously low, but if I go into detail about it all I'll be here all day.

You've summed up nearly all my issues with this tier list. Thank you.

I'd also add Megaman should be a few spots higher. He has insanely good results that rival all of the characters in top 10.

Except Ryu whom he destroys in terms of results and who shouldn't be anywhere near top 10 in the first place. You can't objectively look at Megman's recent results and Ryu's and then conclude Ryu is a better character. It's just not possible.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

i'd rather have zelda's throw game and bad grab than jiggs' decent grab(which isn't even because she has no mixups into grab) and nonexistent throw combos
and zelda has one of the best up b's in the game, can't say jiggs has a recovery with more options.
you know a character sucks when footstooling them repeatedly to death is an actual option.

Just 2 frame it bro

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So as long as Lucario can live long enough to make aura a big factor (which isn't hard as he's quite heavy)

He's not really heavy I'd say tbh, he's below medium in terms of weight iirc

 

[Fatmanonice]

I don't have any major complaints and I give this tier list props for a number of reasons:

1. Admits that Ryu isn't the secret metagame tyrant that people have been trying to suggest that he is for months.
2. Acknowledges that Bayonetta is still pretty damn good and will probably get even better.
3. Acknowledges that Megaman is definitely viable in the right hands.
4. Acknowledges that Palutena really isn't all that bad and is kind of like a low tier Mario.
5. Admits that Roy was overrated as all Hell.

The game's looking pretty good but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping for at least one more patch to buff some of my favorites in low tier and, of course, the OG BAMF Dedede.

 

[Yikarur]

Lucina has less range as well. But I agree that she isn't that far apart. There are most likely match-ups where you could prefer Lucina over Marth.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

He [Pikachu] also loses to Marth, Lucina

No.

 

[Fenny]

if this tier list is really centered on results then bayo,cloud, and ryu are all too high. everyone gets pitchforks for pika lack of results but these three (especially ryu) aren't exactly impressive either. also what warrants falcon being that high?

Even if it was centred on results then top 10 would virtually remain the same, only muddled up a bit. In the case of the 3 you named, Cloud would be below Shiek (where he should be imo), Bayo would be 9th instead and 10th would be a toss-up between Ryu and Mewtwo. In comparison, Pika doesn't reach the standard of 12th at all.

Lucina has less range as well. But I agree that she isn't that far apart. There are most likely match-ups where you could prefer Lucina over Marth.

No, she doesn't lmao.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Lucina has less range as well

Wasn't that literally disproved yesterday?

 

[EternalFlare]

He's not really heavy I'd say tbh, he's below medium in terms of weight iirc

According to this he's classified as a heavyweight:

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight

21st heaviest overall. So definitely well above average in a game with 58 characters.

Even if it was centred on results then top 10 would virtually remain the same, only muddled up a bit. In the case of the 3 you named, Cloud would be below Shiek (where he should be imo), Bayo would be 9th instead and 10th would be a toss-up between Ryu and Mewtwo. In comparison, Pika doesn't reach the standard of 12th at all.

I hope you are joking. Mewtwo has MUCH better results than Ryu. As does Megaman.

These characters consistently place top 5/8 at the most stacked of tournaments. Ryu has yet to even make top 8 once at a major.

 

[Krysco]

Lucina has less range as well. But I agree that she isn't that far apart. There are most likely match-ups where you could prefer Lucina over Marth.

I recall this being discussed recently in the old thread but isn't her range only lesser when it comes to vertical range due to her shorter stature? Namely jab and ftilt not reaching above Battlefield platforms

 

[Ethan7]

Well, I guess all this discussion is going on here now. The number of tiers went down to 9 from a previous 11. Cool seeing my main in 1st and Rosa in 4th. Cloud and Pikachu seem kind of high. Mewtwo rose the most, Roy fell the most.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

According to this he's classified as a heavyweight:

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight

21st heaviest overall. So definitely well above average in a game with 58 characters.



I hope you are joking. Mewtwo has MUCH better results than Ryu. As does Megaman.

These characters consistently place top 5/8 at the most stacked of tournaments. Ryu has yet to even make top 8 once at a major.

In that case he's BARELY a heavyweight. Not exactly easy to keep him alive. I'd also argue that the aura screws with your combos meaning you need to put more memorization in Lucario's combos which can be quite the hassle

 

[EternalFlare]

No.

Pikachu lacks range and has trouble getting in on disjoints. Marth/Lucina have great disjoints+mobility to zone him out with. So they dominate neutral in the matchup.

Also offstage there's no way Pika is edge guarding them consistently, their up Bs come out way too fast with disjoints. As long as they even slightly mix up their up B timings, they are fine. The chances of them getting gimped is extremely low and thus not very relevant.

So please do not bring up some magical off-stage edge guarding BS. The best Pika can't even edge guard Falcon consistently, let along characters with way better recoveries.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Huh. I thought this was just bull. Then again, I hear Japan's got a different meta. I want to know why those characters are deemed good (AKA more than results), because I remember Lucario always getting flak

He's getting flak for being horribly designed.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

He's getting flak for being horribly designed.

Which further makes me confused why the hell he's so high there. If it's true Japan DID have involvement with this list, I think that we should have simply had 2 different lists

 

[Luigi player]

If she doesn't reach as high vertically then yeah, she has less range than Marth... just not overall/horizontally.

E EternalFlare
Abadangos results aren't as good as you seem to think. At least not consistently. He's also been placing top 8 at most big american tourneys since the start with Pacman, Wario and MetaKnight (though to be fair it was with customs and prepatch MK, but still).
Inb4 Abadango doesn't try in Japan...

 

[C0rvus]

Which further makes me confused why the hell he's so high there. If it's true Japan DID have involvement with this list, I think that we should have simply had 2 different lists

I think you're misunderstanding. He's poorly designed, but not in that he's bad. People give aura flak because it's kinda broken. Lucario is very good, and in Japan he does quite well for himself in particular. This list may have undersold him a bit imo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Which further makes me confused why the hell he's so high there.

Pretty sure you missed the point.

Lucario is considered horribly designed because of how rage and aura stack - the effects of both mechanics multiply to the point where Lucario is just straight up rewarded for playing poorly [the fact that a good third of his moveset is just plain useless doesn't make things better].

That doesn't mean that he's a bad character to use in a competitive setting.

 

[Ethan7]

One thing I just noticed.
Why are and not next to each other? They are 3 places apart.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Pikachu lacks range and has trouble getting in on disjoints. Marth/Lucina have great disjoints+mobility to zone him out with. So they dominate neutral in the matchup.

Also offstage there's no way Pika is edge guarding them consistently, their up Bs come out way too fast with disjoints. As long as they even slightly mix up their up B timings, they are fine. The chances of them getting gimped is extremely low and thus not very relevant.

So please do not bring up some magical off-stage edge guarding BS. The best Pika can't even edge guard Falcon consistently, let along characters with way better recoveries.

Pikachu's bair trades with Dolphin Slash and kills Marthcina pretty much instantly. Looks the exact same as bair trading with Firefox.
Stop this lol.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Lucina has less range as well. But I agree that she isn't that far apart. There are most likely match-ups where you could prefer Lucina over Marth.

No.
Lucina has the same range as Marth in a lot of moves, and the only moves that Marth vertically outranges her, the difference is not realistic enough for it to be any use. Marth being able to hit people on BF's platforms with his Jab and Side Smash is true, but it's extremely unreliable, and Lucina can actually do it as well, after I tested it with her enough.
I was the one in the previous thread that showed this:

"Lucina is 29 spaces lower than Marth."
"Wait, how come?"
"She has less range-"

These memes need to die pic.twitter.com/Bne5aiGAt6

— Jonty 🇵🇸 (@Skarfelt_) July 7, 2016

I am also the author of this video that basically shows just how "reliably" Marth can poke people through BF's platforms.

Not only that, those were literally the first times I ever got them. I was testing that all morning that day and those were the only hits I got.
I was also able to hit people in the platform with his jab. The second hit. After the 39th try.
Actually, as soon as I was able to clip people with Lucina's Side Smash on BF's lower platforms, I am actually legit starting to wonder if the vertical difference is even there.


EDIT: Somebody please tell me who is perpetuating the idea Lucina has less range than Marth in late August 2016.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Pretty sure you missed the point.

Lucario is considered horribly designed because of how rage and aura stack - the effects of both mechanics multiply to the point where Lucario is just straight up rewarded for playing poorly [the fact that a good third of his moveset is just plain useless doesn't make things better].

That doesn't mean that he's a bad character to use in a competitive setting.

I think you're misunderstanding. He's poorly designed, but not in that he's bad. People give aura flak because it's kinda broken. Lucario is very good, and in Japan he does quite well for himself in particular. This list may have undersold him a bit imo.

Ooooooh.
I wouldn't say Lucario is straight up rewarded, because as strong as Aura is, you should at least rack up damage to your foe to make it easier, like in, say, League of Legends in which certain champions benefit in the late game despite an early game struggle

One thing I just noticed.
Why are and not next to each other? They are 3 places apart.

The little differences they have are significant enough to seperate them

 

[Fenny]

I hope you are joking. Mewtwo has MUCH better results than Ryu. As does Megaman.

These characters consistently place top 5/8 at the most stacked of tournaments. Ryu has yet to even make top 8 once at a major.

If I'm permitted to use Das Koopa's dank data collection as basis:

Top 16 Weighted: Ryu #10, Mewtwo #15
Top 8 Weighted: Ryu #11, Mewtwo #10

As of Aug. 17th.

I know this probaby ain't the whole story, but it paints a decent picture. Only thing is, Abadango's being doing this well singlehandedly, and gets very high at majors doing so, which is why I say he should beat Ryu out in this tier list on the basis of both character capabilities that have been displayed at the top level and results.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

[Lucina less range than Marth] No, she doesn't lmao.

Vertically on grounded moves, yes. She's a shorter character.

Pikachu lacks range and has trouble getting in on disjoints. Marth/Lucina have great disjoints+mobility to zone him out with. So they dominate neutral in the matchup.

Also offstage there's no way Pika is edge guarding them consistently, their up Bs come out way too fast with disjoints. As long as they even slightly mix up their up B timings, they are fine. The chances of them getting gimped is extremely low and thus not very relevant.

So please do not bring up some magical off-stage edge guarding BS. The best Pika can't even edge guard Falcon consistently, let along characters with way better recoveries.

1. Calm down and get your emotions out of these arguments.
2. The only word in that post was "No", I don't know how you managed to try and put words in my mouth about edge guarding.
3. Do you use either of these characters? I'm fairly certain pretty much ANY Marth or Lucina user would tell you they lose to Pikachu. Marth and Lucina struggle keeping Pikachu out. Having disjoints against a character that lacks them is not an auto win. Not only that, but this isn't melee, edge guarding doesn't have to happen right next to the stage. You can go way off and hit someone before they get the chance to come back in this game. Did you not consider that you can hit someone before they get close enough to use their up b?

 

[Fenny]

Vertically on grounded moves, yes. She's a shorter character.

I know that, I'm talking about in terms of a difference that is actually relevant.

Relevant enough to dump her this low in comparison to Marth? I don't think so.

 

[teddystalin]

Pikachu lacks range and has trouble getting in on disjoints. Marth/Lucina have great disjoints+mobility to zone him out with. So they dominate neutral in the matchup.

Also offstage there's no way Pika is edge guarding them consistently, their up Bs come out way too fast with disjoints. As long as they even slightly mix up their up B timings, they are fine. The chances of them getting gimped is extremely low and thus not very relevant.

So please do not bring up some magical off-stage edge guarding BS. The best Pika can't even edge guard Falcon consistently, let along characters with way better recoveries.

Don't wanna wade into the theorycraft debate, but it's worth noting that the top three American Marths all thing the MU is even at best and possibly much worse:

-June compilation of MU charts

-Pugwest's updated chart (backwards ratios)

 

[Nah]

It was rather sudden but yay new tier list, one was really needed. It's not perfect but it's not terrible either.

A few minor issues I have with it that I guess I'll voice is that: Corrin is not high tier, and has not proven herself to be the best Fire Emblem character. At this point Marth really takes that title instead. Lucina is a little too far from Marth. I'm surprised that Ike is that far down mid-tier and not closer to Robin.

Oh yeah, also, Lucina's vertical reach is literally like a few pixels less than Marth's, it's negligible in most situations I'm pretty sure.