Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ShadowGuy1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyQJlckvgnE

ZeRo's next tier list bit:

Spoiler

Notable absentees:
I do love that ZeRo seems to be one of the only top players that thinks of Marth and Lucina as the same character. Lucina isn't Bad Marth, she's safer, less rewarding at maximum spacing Marth. That doesn't make her Bad.

Thing is their case is not like Dark Pit and Pit. Both have different combos and a different game plan. Major Pit players use Dark Pit in doubles or as a secondary for some matchups, but you don't see that with Lucy. By no means is Lucy bad, but them taking the same spot is eh to me, losing tipper is also a reason, but yeah. She would be, in zeros case, high tier in my opinion. The gap should be no more then like 6-7.

 

[Goombo]

Well, ZeRo has his high tier out.

Lol Zero considers himself as a top 3 Sheik.
</****post>

 

[|RK|]

I don't care how many jank-*** 40% rage aura kills he gets on ZeRo, Lucario doesn't belong anywhere near top tier. And Lucina, seriously?

I said this elsewhere, but IMO, I can see Lucario being top tier for the same reasons pre-patch MK was top tier. If you have a factor that allows you to make up for bad MUs that easily, it can be hard to place you.

Also, before anyone says it - I don't know why people keep saying he has bad mobility. His run speed is middle of the pack, his walks speed is below average (but not excessively so), and his airspeed is top 20 (literally 20th). He has decent mobility.

 

[Amadeus9]

Before you rip on lucario, consider the fact that he can safely pressure shield with nair AND bair with no aura (nair +3 on shield, bair -1), which complements his strong grab data (and ridiculous command grab) and reward which allows safe options to condition shield and grab fishing at any point. Which is the main reason why Diddy is such a good character. Nair actually begins to combo into grab on shield at low amounts of aura.

I said this elsewhere, but IMO, I can see Lucario being top tier for the same reasons pre-patch MK was top tier. If you have a factor that allows you to make up for bad MUs that easily, it can be hard to place you.

Also, before anyone says it - I don't know why people keep saying he has bad mobility. His run speed is middle of the pack, his walks speed is below average (but not excessively so), and his airspeed is top 20 (literally 20th). He has decent mobility.

Also lucario's walk acceleration is very high, and he has one of the best and most usable crawls in the game, lucarios ability to bait in neutral using strictly movement is extremely good

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Lucina is not safer than Marth is, speaking from the perspective of how much harder it is to punish Marth as MK strictly because of how good tipper is on shield. Literally tips (no pun intended) the mu towards a potentially Marth favored mu.

Also what's with the Lucario hate? That character is good. You dont get away with his safety/grab data/grab reward/top tier projectile/general stupidity in aura without being at least high tier, anyone who says otherwise is just wrong.

I do admit to having lucario hate, its mainly because I feel like lucario is lazy. Say I'm wrecking a lucario, until I take that stock it doesn't matter that I got you to 130% in the time that you got me to 40%, one aura sphere and you win... It's frustrating. But that's why he is up so high, he can clutch any game as long as he can avoid a KO option from his opponent. That and once he is high % the MU completely changes, his side special is like a freaking shotgun. his aura charge is so hard to get in on and you can't just let him charge because then he gets a free spirit bomb aura sphere.

 

[Alexander1583]

New part on zero's tier list, with marth and lucina not in high tier, they are probably going to be on top tier. Where did i leave my popcorn?

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

New part on zero's tier list, with marth and lucina not in high tier, they are probably going to be on top tier. Where did i leave my popcorn?

what makes marth/lucina good? As a pikachu I don't really have trouble with them so I'm wondering what all the hubbub is. I would have put marth and lucina as mid tier at best, but maybe there is somthing I don't know and the Marth at my local suck. His recovery seems easy to intercept and I would have guessed that zoning would be hard for him to get around. Also who are the best marth mains?

 

[TDK]

what makes marth/lucina good? As a pikachu I don't really have trouble with them so I'm wondering what all the hubbub is. I would have put marth and lucina as mid tier at best, but maybe there is somthing I don't know and the Marth at my local suck. His recovery seems easy to intercept and I would have guessed that zoning would be hard for him to get around. Also who are the best marth mains?

For mains, Leo, Mr. E, and Pugwest are the best, with Mr. E even beating ZeRo at EVO. I'll leave your first question to the marth/lucina mains in this thread.

EDIT: Found Mr. E's game with ZeRo (or at least games 2 and 3 of it, ZeRo is up 1-0. The quality is bad but it's an offstream match so what can you do :/) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=318NGGaR_Ds

 

[Amadeus9]

what makes marth/lucina good? As a pikachu I don't really have trouble with them so I'm wondering what all the hubbub is. I would have put marth and lucina as mid tier at best, but maybe there is somthing I don't know and the Marth at my local suck. His recovery seems easy to intercept and I would have guessed that zoning would be hard for him to get around. Also who are the best marth mains?

Transcendant side b, good data all around frame wise, sweeping aerials that make it hard to return to neutral from disadvantage against him (the reason why all his throws are positionional throws), and exceptional reward/risk ratio. At least for Marth. If you want someone who knows a lot about lucina, ask @ReRaze that guy is a lucina savant tbh

Oh also i cant stress hard enough the "hard to return to neutral" point. Like Marth should in theory keep you in disadvantage indefinitely if he doesn't make mistakes

 

[Alexander1583]

what makes marth/lucina good? As a pikachu I don't really have trouble with them so I'm wondering what all the hubbub is. I would have put marth and lucina as mid tier at best, but maybe there is somthing I don't know and the Marth at my local suck. His recovery seems easy to intercept and I would have guessed that zoning would be hard for him to get around. Also who are the best marth mains?

They have their tricks and can be dangereous (marth for his tippers, and while lucina is weaker her ko power and setups are nothing to laugh at) but i do not see either of them in top tier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

what makes marth/lucina good? As a pikachu I don't really have trouble with them so I'm wondering what all the hubbub is. I would have put marth and lucina as mid tier at best, but maybe there is somthing I don't know and the Marth at my local suck. His recovery seems easy to intercept and I would have guessed that zoning would be hard for him to get around. Also who are the best marth mains?

Try fighting them with a char that actually needs to engage in the mid range.

Not even trying to be an asshole, but your character ignores footsies something other characters cant ignore.

 

[Ethan7]

Can someone tell me when Esam said is the best character? Esam put him at 4th but I think the tiers weren't ordered so I guess 1st-4th (which I think is ridiculous). Do people seriously not realize that his tier list went from right to left (at least if the tier list was ordered)? Did people just skip to the end to see the list and not look at the order he placed the characters? ZeRo also said Esam put in last which isn't really true either.

 

[Amadeus9]

They have their tricks and can be dangereous (marth for his tippers, and while lucina is weaker her ko power and setups are nothing to laugh at) but i do not see either of them in top tier.

Boo! Boo I say! Rubbish, filth, slime, muck! Boo! Boo! Boo!

(mods im exempt from warning cause princess bride reference, ty)

 

[Das Koopa]

Lucario top 13

Hmmm, I wonder why ZeRo thinks that. I mean, I just can't think of any reason...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Lucario top 13

Hmmm, I wonder why ZeRo thinks that. I mean, I just can't think of any reason...

"Potential"

That and salt over his deaths against Lucario. Not that anyone has ever had an over inflated opinion of a character due to salt before right?

I'm still calling it as Corrin 8th and Ryu 1st.

 

[soniczx123]

"Potential"

That and salt over his deaths against Lucario. Not that anyone has ever had an over inflated opinion of a character due to salt before right?

I'm still calling it as Corrin 8th and Ryu 1st.

Corrin was already decided as 16th though...

 

[Ffamran]

Also lucario's walk acceleration is very high, and he has one of the best and most usable crawls in the game, lucarios ability to bait in neutral using strictly movement is extremely good

Lucario's walk acceleration is 0.1 like 90% of the cast. The only character with high walk acceleration is Ryu at 1 walk acceleration. Lucario does have a 0.2 initial walk which is above-average. The only ones who have it higher are Mewtwo and Samus clocking at 0.3 initial walk.

 

[DanGR]

So far his most sensible part of the list. Of course he will put Lucario in top tier, he is salty because Goma and Day kicked his butt. Real talk, Lucario is not top 13 material.

Or you know we could give him the benefit of the doubt that salt aside he thinks Lucario is a top tier threat. (Which I happen to agree with)

 

[blackghost]

You have to DI in towards Bayonetta for dABK to have its pre-nerf angle. If you're nearly getting 0-deathed by her in 1.1.6, then that's on you.

make this a tshirt.

 

[FeelMeUp]

ZeRo tends to heavily overrate characters immediately after having close run ins/losses to them, though.
I don't know why people tend to forget this.

 

[mountain_tiger]

For no particular reason, here's a handful of predictions on how I think certain characters will change tier-wise in the future:

Realistically, this guy doesn't have anywhere to go but down. Strong grab game and kill confirms aside, he simply has too much working against him. Being ultra easy to combo is well-known, and wouldn't necessarily be so awful in itself. However, he's also definitely one of the easier characters in the game to edgeguard - the weakest of meteor smashes can prove fatal, and even if he doesn't die off-stage, he'll be taking a good chunk of damage at a minimum. Critically, he also struggles against disjoints a lot, and struggles to put his good range to much use because of it. I can see him being as much as 10-15 positions lower given some time.

I don't think the full implications of a 'time out' Sonic have been fully realised yet. Played sufficiently defensive, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if he eventually becomes top 3, even.

Rosalina, by contrast, I reckon will settle into #6-10 at some point. Don't get me wrong, she'll always be terrifying to fight against, and can wreak havoc once momentum is on her side... but there are a number of MUs where things can go seriously wrong when momentum isn't on her side, and I reckon that will prove detrimental enough to keep her out of top 5 (she'll always be top 10 miminum though)

Sooner or later folks will realise that there really isn't enough justification for having her more than 5 or so places below Marth. Look at it this way - if Marth wasn't in this game, and Lucina was a standalone character, would she still be ranked where she is now? Somehow, I highly doubt it...


May eventually overtake Ganon and/or Mii Swordfighter. Maybe. (N.B. This one is more wishful thinking than anything else - honestly, Jigglypuff's biggest problem is that Smash 4's game mechanics almost seem custom-designed specifically to screw Jigglypuff over)

 

[sups48]

Any tier list with Mega man not in top 15 is wrong.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Corrin was already decided as 16th though...

Corrin will show up twice.

Nah, I skipped to the end of the video for the list and somehow missed him there. That means Zero's opinion of Corrin actually dropped. Huh. Not expecting that.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Realistically, this guy doesn't have anywhere to go but down. Strong grab game and kill confirms aside, he simply has too much working against him. Being ultra easy to combo is well-known, and wouldn't necessarily be so awful in itself. However, he's also definitely one of the easier characters in the game to edgeguard - the weakest of meteor smashes can prove fatal, and even if he doesn't die off-stage, he'll be taking a good chunk of damage at a minimum. Critically, he also struggles against disjoints a lot, and struggles to put his good range to much use because of it. I can see him being as much as 10-15 positions lower given some time.
on her side, and I reckon that will prove detrimental enough to keep her out of top 5 (she'll always be top 10 miminum though)

By this logic do you think bowser will drop for the same reason? Bowser and dk are awfully similar in their goals and play style, though dk does better due to frame data.

 

[Nah]

IAlso, before anyone says it - I don't know why people keep saying he has bad mobility. His run speed is middle of the pack, his walks speed is below average (but not excessively so), and his airspeed is top 20 (literally 20th). He has decent mobility.

Average or middle doesn't seem to exist in the minds of a lot of people when it comes to certain things for some reason; it's either only one of the two extremes and idk why people think that. I've heard people say that Robin is a "tall" chraacter for example. Robin is not tall, she's of average height. Tall is more like .

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lucario top tier? I can assure you that's not the case. It's true that he does fairly well against Sheik, Diddy and Sonic, which is a massive plus but he also has a few pretty bad matchups in Mewtwo, Fox, ZSS and Cloud and he has a ton of randomly difficult ones like Luigi, Charizard, Mr. G&W, Robin, Lucas, Ike or Wario [who, since just about everybody around him got buffed over time, generally does not do very well against anybody anymore and may actually be the most overrated character right now] .... the list of characters that can make life hard for Lucario is quite long.

He's just a very counter-intuitive character or, as kids use to say these days, he's anti-meta.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

what makes marth/lucina good? As a pikachu I don't really have trouble with them so I'm wondering what all the hubbub is. I would have put marth and lucina as mid tier at best, but maybe there is somthing I don't know and the Marth at my local suck. His recovery seems easy to intercept and I would have guessed that zoning would be hard for him to get around. Also who are the best marth mains?

You use Pikachu, as you said, so I can understand why you think this.

By this logic do you think bowser will drop for the same reason? Bowser and dk are awfully similar in their goals and play style, though dk does better due to frame data.

Bowser is actually threatening. Most of Bowser's kit is actually very good, and there's more to Bowser than just fishing for a uthrow > uair kill. Good command grab, powerful aerials, jab mix ups that can lead to death, good out of shield option, I believe he has a kill throw at the ledge too? not sure which one it is. DK only really has dtilt, utilt, jab, nair, maybe bair, and his cargo uthrow > uair set up going for him. Everything else about DK is really bad. Their goals may overlap sometimes, but if that goal doesn't work out then Bowser still has more options to go for than DK does.

 

[soniczx123]

Lucario top tier? I can assure you that's not the case. It's true that he does fairly well against Sheik, Diddy and Sonic, which is a massive plus but he also has a few pretty bad matchups in Mewtwo, Fox, ZSS and Cloud and he has a ton of randomly difficult ones like Luigi, Charizard, Mr. G&W, Robin, Lucas, Ike or Wario [who, since just about everybody around him got buffed over time, generally does not do very well against anybody anymore and may actually be the most overrated character right now] .... the list of characters that can make life hard for Lucario is quite long.

He's just a very counter-intuitive character or, as kids use to say these days, he's anti-meta.

Explain Lucas, Robin and Wario.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Explain Lucas, Robin and Wario.

Well it goes without saying that Lucas can absorb lucario's side and neutral special... I can reasonably see lucario having trouble with Lucas since he has to play fair. I think Lucas my be underrated as well. But who knows

 

[Mr. Johan]

Kill confirms off things immune to Double Team, being legitimately capable of running away from Lucario for moments at a time with the percent lead, Levin Fair outranging Nair and capable of batting away anything less than a max aura AS, and faster projectiles to keep damage piling on, Robin has the things necessary to keep things his way.

Get a combo in at 0, rack him up to 55-60, then just nickel and dime Lucario until you get the confirm.

 

[Fenny]

Explain Lucas, Robin and Wario.

A Lucas who plays safe is usually in a good position to absorb his projectile jank for tremendous reward and work from a distance to get a kill opportunity on him. Having kill throws really helps him.

 

[mountain_tiger]

By this logic do you think bowser will drop for the same reason? Bowser and dk are awfully similar in their goals and play style, though dk does better due to frame data.

Yes, but not to the same extent.

Bowser has some positive traits that DK doesn't - Fire Breath is very underrated, and he's not as easy to edgeguard as DK is. In fact, I'd even argue that Bowser is (by a very slim margin) the superior character.

 

[adom4]

Yes, but not to the same extent.

Bowser has some positive traits that DK doesn't - Fire Breath is very underrated, and he's not as easy to edgeguard as DK is. In fact, I'd even argue that Bowser is (by a very slim margin) the superior character.

How is Bowser harder to edgeguard than DK?
Even if he has more distance he has almost no protection on his up-B, unlike DK.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Yes, but not to the same extent.

Bowser has some positive traits that DK doesn't - Fire Breath is very underrated, and he's not as easy to edgeguard as DK is. In fact, I'd even argue that Bowser is (by a very slim margin) the superior character.

Mmmmmm I disagree with you there, dk will always remain higher than bowser due to straight up better reward off of grab, being better at landing grabs due to confirms off of down tilt and jab, faster frame data, and slightly better edge guarding. Though I do agree that bowsers fire is underrated and bowsers recovery Is more reliable than dk's.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

You use Pikachu, as you said, so I can understand why you think this.

Bowser is actually threatening. Most of Bowser's kit is actually very good, and there's more to Bowser than just fishing for a uthrow > uair kill. Good command grab, powerful aerials, jab mix ups that can lead to death, good out of shield option, I believe he has a kill throw at the ledge too? not sure which one it is. DK only really has dtilt, utilt, jab, nair, maybe bair, and his cargo uthrow > uair set up going for him. Everything else about DK is really bad. Their goals may overlap sometimes, but if that goal doesn't work out then Bowser still has more options to go for than DK does.

Aerial up b is much better than Bowsers because it works as a combo breaker. Both their recoveries suck but his is slightly better (might be some bias, Charizard and Marth edgeguard Bowser harder). His landing options are also slightly better imo (they still suck tho)

He has a better disadvantage than Bowser and a better neutral overall with much better frame data and spacing options, I still think they're both mid tier at best though
Now Charizard... That's a damn good heavy right there. If only more people played him ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Amadeus9]

Lucario's walk acceleration is 0.1 like 90% of the cast. The only character with high walk acceleration is Ryu at 1 walk acceleration. Lucario does have a 0.2 initial walk which is above-average. The only ones who have it higher are Mewtwo and Samus clocking at 0.3 initial walk.

SEMANTICS

 

[blackghost]

why do i keep hearing commentators ( at multiple scenes) say "witch time setup?" what are those?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So uh, Larry Lurr said this was his top 10 in no order











While saying Rosa is overrated and Corrin has the 2nd best combo game, best 2 framer, and kill set ups.

 

[|RK|]

Regarding Lucario - before we (well, it's too late now) accuse ZeRo of Day bias, it turns out he's not the only top player that thinks this way. Larry thinks he's top 10:

https://twitter.com/LarryLurr/status/771059827296514048

And I hear Mr. R has high opinions of him as well.

EDIT: What timing

 

[sedrf]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Day made a lucario match up list