Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Yoshister]

Something to note about Lucas' nair is that if you read SDI your opponent will not escape.

SDI does not guarantee escape.

 

[Y2Kay]

Pit's anti airs are some of the best of the game. Pit having no stand out strengths is a meme (and untrue).

I personally feel that Pit is very capable of being a high tier character, but being upper mid is not a very ludicrous idea.

 

[TDK]

Defiantly high low tier, Roy is too fast and powerful to be any lower.


Just freaking pick up Mario!!!! How hard is that to pick up as a secondary? I'm not saying that all characters have the same learning curve, but there are lots of easy to learn characters that would have better MU spreads and therefore make better theoretical secondaries. Pit, Kirby, or DK are all easy to pick up and have more even spreads. Why make it harder on yourself?

Because I primarily play this game for fun and want to use the characters that I get the most enjoyment out of? Again, -1 isn't that bad in this game, in comparison to say, brawl, where a -1 vs Ice Climbers was the equivalent of play perfectly or lose your stock, as an example. Roy has a lot of -1s, but he can still win, and a losing matchup in this game isn't a death sentence in the slightest unless it's -3, and those are very, very rare. The only ones I can think of are maybe Sheik/Rosa/Bayo vs Ganon.

And in general, I don't come here to complain about bad matchups, I come here to help innovate ways to move my characters forward and maybe change those matchups.

Well what game are you comparing with Smash 4 that shows the lack of strictness within the matchups? I agree with your point on playing the characters differently but I think if you're gonna choose Roy based on the fact that he has a -1 MU against someone that your main has a -2 MU against, you might as well pick a character that has a better MU if you can. If Roy is your best bet, fair enough but really you should probably have a secondary that covers the bad MUs that your main has.

A big example would be ICs and MK in Brawl, where a -1 meant play perfectly or lose your stock (ICs) or you're outplayed in neutral 90% of the time and he'll kill you faster with safer options (MK)

 

[Murlough]

Pit's anti airs are some of the best of the game. Pit having no stand out strengths is a meme (and untrue).

I personally feel that Pit is very capable of being a high tier character, but being upper mid is not a very ludicrous idea.

What are his stand out strengths that set him apart from being another mid tier? Educate me (and the rest of us. There seems to be a consensus that Pit isn't anything special).

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Pit's anti airs are some of the best of the game. Pit having no stand out strengths is a meme (and untrue).

I personally feel that Pit is very capable of being a high tier character, but being upper mid is not a very ludicrous idea.

*looks at Charizard* hmm, better anti airs, better mobility, also has grab combos and mixups, better kill throw, edgeguarding is on par or better, frame data is slightly worse... mid tier at best

 

[arbustopachon]

Pit does have more jumps than Zard, better air accel, better walk accel and a way slimmer hurtbox tho. Oh and lower jumpsquat, can't forget about that.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Pit does have more jumps than Zard, better air accel, better walk accel and a way slimmer hurtbox tho. Oh and lower jumpsquat, can't forget about that.

And also pits Dair is a great landing option

 

[TheGoodGuava]

And also pits Dair is a great landing option

Charizard can burst full screen while in super armor without a chance of the opponent punishing him unless its someone like Fox. His dair also works out as a solid landing option with a good sized hitbox that lasts 8 frames. Hes also got nair, fair, b reverse flame thrower, and rock smash. His aerials all have around the same amount of landing lag as Pit's aside from dair and again, a hitbox that lasts 8 frames is great for landing even if its not as good as Pit's dair

 

[nannerham]

remove this

 

[LRodC]

People at his launch used to say that Cloud's down smash can be teched and escaped, but I haven't seen it or heard it mentioned since. Is this a thing still?

 

[Djmarcus44]

People at his launch used to say that Cloud's down smash can be teched and escaped, but I haven't seen it or heard it mentioned since. Is this a thing still?

Yes. Usually it doesn't happen very much because it isn't common knowledge. It is also pretty hard to time the tech properly (I've heard that the opponent has to DI downward after the first hit in order to tech the move).

 

[FeelMeUp]

Definitely the most realistic MU chart I've seen from a non top tier main in a while.

My opinion on Ness's match up spread currently pic.twitter.com/a14vWggy3X

— NAKAT (@darknakat) August 31, 2016

 

[PK Gaming]

Pit's anti airs are some of the best of the game. Pit having no stand out strengths is a meme (and untrue).

I personally feel that Pit is very capable of being a high tier character, but being upper mid is not a very ludicrous idea.

Oh man

"Pit has no real strengths or weaknesses" is one of the laziest, thought terminating phrases I've heard in regards to the character.

He has some very, very obvious strengths, and some clear weaknesses! It's turned into a pet peeve...

 

[Rizen]

Oh man

"Pit has no real strengths or weaknesses" is one of the laziest, thought terminating phrases I've heard in regards to the character.

He has some very, very obvious strengths, and some clear weaknesses! It's turned into a pet peeve...

Please expand on this. Not saying I disagree, just curious what you think.

 

[PK Gaming]

Please expand on this. Not saying I disagree, just curious what you think.

Well, just from playing him / watching him compete at higher levels, he has some clear, discernible strengths:

• Very solid neutral
• Some amazing tools like dash attack and arrows for edgeguarding
  
• Great dash attack
• Good range, combo & grab game

Like, this isn't a character who isn't "unremarkable." Earth does so well because Pit's foundation is genuinely solid.

 

[vertime]

A big example would be ICs and MK in Brawl, where a -1 meant play perfectly or lose your stock (ICs) or you're outplayed in neutral 90% of the time and he'll kill you faster with safer options (MK)

Ah, alright, fair point.

 

[Murlough]

Oh man

"Pit has no real strengths or weaknesses" is one of the laziest, thought terminating phrases I've heard in regards to the character.

He has some very, very obvious strengths, and some clear weaknesses! It's turned into a pet peeve...

Its sooo obvious that two people have referenced these great tools Pit apparently has without even telling us what they are. Seems like a lazy, thought terminating statement with no substance.

EDIT: I scrolled down. Arrows are decent of course but characters higher than him still have much better tools. Arrows aren't Pit's banana.

 

[Nu~]

Its sooo obvious that two people have referenced these great tools Pit apparently has without even telling us what they are. Seems like a lazy, thought terminating statement with no substance.

EDIT: I scrolled down. Arrows are decent of course but characters higher than him still have much better tools. Arrows aren't Pit's banana.

Well comparing arrows to possibly the best item in the game is unfair

 

[Murlough]

Well comparing arrows to possibly the best item in the game is unfair

Fair enough. Lets compare Pits advantages to other high tier characters then.

Pits arrows are good for edgeguarding. He also has multiple jumps that can help with edgeguarding as well. He also has a flexible recovery.

Kinda reminds me of Mewtwo on paper. Good projectile, good edgeguarding, and flexible recovery. However, there are very clear differences in what each character can do.

Mewtwo has fantastic options such as dtilt and fair. Pit doesn't have much else to compare. You may say once again that this argument is unfair. Fine.

Lets compare Pit to Bayonetta then. Bayonetta has a flexible recovery, fantastic edgeguarding potential, her projectile can be great in certain matchups.

But Bayonetta, like Mewtwo, has fantastic options that Pit can't compete with. Witch time, her ability to rack up great damage off a little mistake. The ability to kill off the top at low percents.

My argument here is that high tier characters are insane. They have abilities that lower tier characters wish they had. Pit is good, but he doesn't have the same power as the likes of Mewtwo and Bayonetta. This is why I don't think Pit is high tier. Top of mid at best in my opinion.

 

[Nu~]

Fair enough. Lets compare Pits advantages to other high tier characters then.

Pits arrows are good for edgeguarding. He also has multiple jumps that can help with edgeguarding as well. He also has a flexible recovery.

Kinda reminds me of Mewtwo on paper. Good projectile, good edgeguarding, and flexible recovery. However, there are very clear differences in what each character can do.

Mewtwo has fantastic options such as dtilt and fair. Pit doesn't have much else to compare. You may say once again that this argument is unfair. Fine.

Lets compare Pit to Bayonetta then. Bayonetta has a flexible recovery, fantastic edgeguarding potential, her projectile can be great in certain matchups.

But Bayonetta, like Mewtwo, has fantastic options that Pit can't compete with. Witch time, her ability to rack up great damage off a little mistake. The ability to kill off the top at low percents.

My argument here is that high tier characters are insane. They have abilities that lower tier characters wish they had. Pit is good, but he doesn't have the same power as the likes of Mewtwo and Bayonetta. This is why I don't think Pit is high tier. Top of mid at best in my opinion.

Oh I understood where you were going just clear, it just feels rather unfair to compare one of pit's decent tools to one of the best tools of a top tier character. Remember, the argument is between pit being a high or mid tier, no one is arguing that he's within the top 10 (I hope...).

While I agree that pit is a mid tier character, I'm gonna play devils advocate here for the sake of generating more ideas. The reason why pit mains think their character is a surefire high tier (besides the blind fanboyism I see now and then) is because he has "a tool for every situation". They agree that his tools are mostly average, and overrate some tools like his Nair IMO, but say that his sum is more than the total of his parts.

Criteria for high tier to them is a character that can handle any matchup decently without having any crippling matchups. Arguing that high tiers have more powerful tools overall won't make them budge because they think the versatility is what counts the most.


A question for the thread: what defines top/high/mid/low/bottom tier? I think a difference in definition is one big reason (out of many...) that we can't seem to decide whether a character like pit is a mid tier or high tier.

 

[Krysco]

Going by the categorization the current tier list uses, and are all top tiers. High tiers being and 3 of those characters were ones LancerStaff originally questioned being higher than Pit. Mind you, the notion that Pit could be high tier doesn't seem too far off since he's only 2 spaces away. That's of course assuming that the current tier list is accurate, at least for Pit's placement and I think it is. I highly doubt Pit will go the way of Brawl Zelda.

 

[Nu~]

To be honest, I think & should be chilling in mid tier too.

I don't agree with the current tier list

 

[blackghost]

Going by the categorization the current tier list uses, and are all top tiers. High tiers being and 3 of those characters were ones LancerStaff originally questioned being higher than Pit. Mind you, the notion that Pit could be high tier doesn't seem too far off since he's only 2 spaces away. That's of course assuming that the current tier list is accurate, at least for Pit's placement and I think it is. I highly doubt Pit will go the way of Brawl Zelda.

i'm pretty sure m2 and bayo are high tier as of now. the difference being they dont have the track record of diddy. but we can't simply assume they will move up there yet.
as for the pit discussion its clear to me pit suffers from being remarkably fair. he (ironically) suffers the isues ryu does in most street fighter games or taskmaster and captain america do in marvel: there are simply better options. look at his kit:
recovery (no hitbox and in straight line but slow startup. rosalina and villager both have better versions rosa's being faster and villager being able to stall and vary his recovery.
side b: yes it kills but look at what cloud, bayonetta, lucario, diddy and others do to and they are safer and/or stronger.
down b: the reflector has uses for gimping thats great but as a reflector its slower than most others and the recovery frames after its use are absolutely bad.
neutral b: his tool and they dont kill they annoy and potentially gimp. villager has an alternative option and its a NORMAL and it kills.
pit doesnt have anything that scream "cheap" and in a fighting game thats an issue. characters below him on the tier list have those bowser has high kb on everything, dk has ding dong, ike has crazy damage, robin has super strong aerials, game and watch has windboxes on command and nine, and palutena hasair attacks that cannot be challenged and dont trade.
pit can be solid but trying to give him a boost into recognition will take a lot of victories in tournament.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Bayonetta has more than proven herself to be a top tier by now. She has such a solid kit between her unstoppable recovery, above average damage output and combo game, and absurd punishes thanks to witch time. She can't be lower than top ten in my opinion.

It's often cited that her grab game is poor. True, she gets little reward off of grabs. But if she needs to ever throw it out, be it out of shield, dash grab etc, then the fact is that she still has a reliable shield beating option that comes out before frame 10. That is more than any of us pitiful Yoshi/Samus/Pac players have at our disposal and it's something we'd kill to have. It's why Fox and Cloud are still top tier despite having no grab reward; they still have that quick & essential shield-beating option when they need it. "Fox/Bayo/Cloud loses to shield" is a meme that needs to die.

 

[Crystanium]

I don't feel Nintendo nerfed Bayonetta enough. I'm still getting caught in her original 0 to death combo and barely just getting out. So much for R.I.P. for $5.99. Her tier placement is fine.

 

[Krysco]

i'm pretty sure m2 and bayo are high tier as of now. the difference being they dont have the track record of diddy. but we can't simply assume they will move up there yet.
as for the pit discussion its clear to me pit suffers from being remarkably fair. he (ironically) suffers the isues ryu does in most street fighter games or taskmaster and captain america do in marvel: there are simply better options. look at his kit:
recovery (no hitbox and in straight line but slow startup. rosalina and villager both have better versions rosa's being faster and villager being able to stall and vary his recovery.
side b: yes it kills but look at what cloud, bayonetta, lucario, diddy and others do to and they are safer and/or stronger.
down b: the reflector has uses for gimping thats great but as a reflector its slower than most others and the recovery frames after its use are absolutely bad.
neutral b: his tool and they dont kill they annoy and potentially gimp. villager has an alternative option and its a NORMAL and it kills.
pit doesnt have anything that scream "cheap" and in a fighting game thats an issue. characters below him on the tier list have those bowser has high kb on everything, dk has ding dong, ike has crazy damage, robin has super strong aerials, game and watch has windboxes on command and nine, and palutena hasair attacks that cannot be challenged and dont trade.
pit can be solid but trying to give him a boost into recognition will take a lot of victories in tournament.

I'm simply going by what word they're put under in the op of this thread and it says 'top'. Anyone is free to put them under whatever name they wish, the official tier list is not set in stone obviously and everyone has their own view of what being top tier means vs being high tier. The whole Pit discussion was started I believe by LancerStaff mentioning how Pit, a higher end mid tier, is below that of 3 lower end high tiers. It's a lot more believable for Pit to potentially surpass Greninja, Marth or Corrin in the future than it is for him to surpass Bayo, Mewtwo or Diddy.

I'm personally not giving my input any further than believing Pit is around where he should be, partly because I don't know every in and out of the character. I don't think he should skyrocket up to be with the likes of Diddy but I also don't think he should plummet to the depths with Ganon. I will say that you bring up valid points. If Pit ends up having to use up b rather than his jumps and side b, it'll be a bad time especially if the opponent has a meteor. Side b as an attack is meh, it's the one thing his dark doppelganger is considered to have better and in terms of kill power, I believe Falcon's is also better (lacks the super armor though). Down b is also meh. It can reflect but is kinda slow, can gimp already bad recoveries and can potentially allow for safe landings. Neutral b seems to be one of the qualities often mentioned in high regards for Pit. It's a projectile that allows Pit to hit anyone from nearly anywhere on the entire stage. It's slow enough and weak enough that one can easily react to it either by outprioritizing it with an attack or shielding or dodging it altogether but it does make you have to react or else you take some damage which is never a bad thing for Pit.

As for Pit lacking anything cheap, he also lacks super exploitable weaknesses hence why he's higher than Bowser or G&W or Palutena. I do agree that if the majority of people are to see Pit as a better character, he'll require more high placements at tournaments but then that's true for other characters too

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ike has more than just high damage output. He can potentially 0 to death half the cast with footstool loops which most people don't seem to realize. They just think "oh high damage attacks and grab combos" when that's not all there is to it

On the Pit thing. I can't see Pit surpassing Greninja. I can however see Greninja move up. Greninja has a much higher damage output, probably the second best overall mobility in the game (comparable to zss), a better projectile, a better recovery, lower landing lag, he can pop out of combos with a great anti jank tool, footstool oos is underdeveloped, etc. He still has potential and if his players keep developing him he's only going to get better

 

[Lorde]

You have to DI in towards Bayonetta for dABK to have its pre-nerf angle. If you're nearly getting 0-deathed by her in 1.1.6, then that's on you.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

To be honest, I think & should be chilling in mid tier too.

I don't agree with the current tier list

How so?

I'm not familiar with MU's a whole lot but he has had really good results even aside 2nd at EVO and any character that is able to do really well either has fairly good MUs or lacks good counterplay and I'm inclined to believe the former.

But with he might not have alot of good recent results but he has had solid placings historically. He has good to even MUs against most of the characters placed below him while not doing so well against most of the characters above him. I think he's a little higher than he should be but still a high tier.

 

[FullMoon]

If Ness doesn't do well against most of the high and top tier characters then that likely means he's not high tier himself and more like some upper mid gatekeeper.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Thats sorta how he is placed now. I personally would put him below Marth and Corrin in that 18-20 C tier midhigh range but what are two spots away really?

 

[|RK|]

Well, ZeRo has his high tier out. Notable chars missing are Marcina annndddd... Lucario. So, top tier then.

(Which, if I'm honest - I'm kinda okay with? But I'm just a random crazy person)

 

[Ninety]

I don't care how many jank-ass 40% rage aura kills he gets on ZeRo, Lucario doesn't belong anywhere near top tier. And Lucina, seriously?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't think I've actually commented on the tier list yet. I think it's overall pretty good, although I do think they should separate mid tier into high-mid, mid, and low-mid. Also, I think F-tier should be considered low-mid rather than low tier. Let's look at the characters in it, shall we?



: Regi is getting some decent results with him. 7th Smash Factor 5, 17th EVO 2016, plus some other results as well. Seems decent enough to be low-mid tier.

: He has fallen off, sure, but I still think he's more of a low-mid tier than low tier. His results aren't that bad.

: Results wise, Little Mac should actually be around regular mid-tier. Perhaps low-mid, rather than low, would be a reasonable compromise?

: I personally think she's low-mid tier rather than low tier, although it is possible I'm overrating her.

: Kirby has serious flaws and lacks results, although he has some pretty good match-ups against some top tiers which might push him into low-mid rather than low tier.

: Duck Hunt has been doing pretty good in Japan.

: Given the recent results, it seems unreasonable to call Link "low" tier.


So, the tier list would look like this:

--------------------TOP--------------------
S:
A:
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B:
C:
-------------------HIGH-MID---------------
D:
-------------------MID----------------------
E:
-------------------LOW-MID---------------
F:
--------------------LOW--------------------
G:
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H:

Do you guys agree that the F tier should be considered low-mid and the D-tier should be considered high-mid?

 

[PK Gaming]

Its sooo obvious that two people have referenced these great tools Pit apparently has without even telling us what they are. Seems like a lazy, thought terminating statement with no substance.

EDIT: I scrolled down. Arrows are decent of course but characters higher than him still have much better tools. Arrows aren't Pit's banana.

Easy now, i'm not trying to call anyone out in particular. I've always just hated the "has no real strengths or weaknesses" descriptor that's always being applied towards Pit. There is no such thing as a character with no real strengths or weaknesses, especially in a game like Smash.

Like, i'm not trying to argue that he's high tier or anything like that. Again, this is just a pet peeve of mine.

 

[Zelder]

For those of you that don't want to/can't watch Zero's video, here's his high tier list:

20-

19-

18-

17-

16-

15-

14-

random observations: lucario is in top tier (tiny scoffing noise), Marth and Lucina are combined and also in top tier, and Corrin is no longer top ten

 

[L9999]

For those of you that don't want to/can't watch Zero's video, here's his high tier list:

20-

19-

18-

17-

16-

15-

14-

random observations: lucario is in top tier (tiny scoffing noise), Marth and Lucina are combined and also in top tier, and Corrin is no longer top ten

So far his most sensible part of the list. Of course he will put Lucario in top tier, he is salty because Goma and Day kicked his butt. Real talk, Lucario is not top 13 material.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyQJlckvgnE

ZeRo's next tier list bit:

Spoiler

Notable absentees:
I do love that ZeRo seems to be one of the only top players that thinks of Marth and Lucina as the same character. Lucina isn't Bad Marth, she's safer, less rewarding at maximum spacing Marth. That doesn't make her Bad.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I don't care how many jank-*** 40% rage aura kills he gets on ZeRo, Lucario doesn't belong anywhere near top tier. And Lucina, seriously?

Lucario is really hard to rate in my opinion due to his rage state being so damn strong. I honestly hate this MU as pikachu because if I don't confirm a kill early then he can kill me at like 40%. Lucario rewards the player for staying alive and clinging to stocks. This coupled with a decent recovery that can be mixed up (attack, ledge, Stage left or right Or to a platform) and good zoning tools at high % makes him annoying to kill sometimes. That and lucario mains are finding some cool ways to abuse the aura charge. I really want to rate lucario lower, but his rage state makes him really hard to deal with especially if you don't know the MU.

 

[Amadeus9]

Lucina is not safer than Marth is, speaking from the perspective of how much harder it is to punish Marth as MK strictly because of how good tipper is on shield. Literally tips (no pun intended) the mu towards a potentially Marth favored mu.

Also what's with the Lucario hate? That character is good. You dont get away with his safety/grab data/grab reward/top tier projectile/general stupidity in aura without being at least high tier, anyone who says otherwise is just wrong.