Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

@PK Gaming Murlough Nobie

Shulk in no way wins the Mewtwo matchup, but it's not an outright bad matchup for Shulk. I used to play Mewtwo myself, so I can give some sort of leverage.

Shield Art has its uses in the MU, but it's not very good against M2 because yes Shulk does become prone to being Shadow Ball camped. Best way to do it is to prolong Shulk's longetivity. People also seen to forget his shield HP increases in the Art.

It's a matchup that's a slight disadvantage for Shulk, or if I were going to go the optimistic route even at best. Shulk has the mobility to catch up with Mewtwo thanks to Speed and Jump. He has to play patient against Mewtwo and exploit openings the best he can or he gets blown up, especially with how awful his disadvantage is in Buster or Smash. Shulk loses the matchup for the same reasons Mewtwo beats every swordie (except debatably Cloud, but that's another day). Although with that said, Purge and Smash up tilt are two things Mewtwo has to respect pretty hard.

This is a good set that showcases the matchup well, I advise you three to watch it.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I realize I'm a bit late to the party and haven't been around much lately, but I have a few thoughts regarding our boy...

He remains a somewhat controversial character in terms of tier placement and potential. The general consensus seems to be that he is low tier; as you can see in the BRTL, he is 6th worst. This is in part due to the backwards design of the character alongside his lack of results. With all that said, we've heard several voices expressing that he is in fact very overlooked and has potential in places we haven't bothered to look. It's not uncommon to see individuals place Roy in the midst of the mid tier but without results or proof, these claims generally get swept under the rug.

Not that it matters. I think it's safe to say we'll never really see a Roy solo main really ever get exceptionally far in a noteworthy tournament. However, it's not unlikely that we'll see a Roy pop up as a counterpick character. As a matter of fact, we already have.

For those who aren't aware, both Ryo and Spark (aka Heero/StaticManny/All Might/the english Dictionary) have both utilized Roy in recent sets. And they weren't against no names, Ryo pulled his Roy out against Abadango (Pound 2016 Champion) forcing him to switch to Rosalina from his widely renowned Mewtwo. Spark used his against Anti's Cloud (CEO 2016 Champion). Ryo took it to game 5, using Roy every game except game 1 before losing in a last-hit situation, whereas Spark ended up two stocking Anti's Cloud before switching back to Sonic. Notice the prestige of the defeated characters who were listed.

Now I ask you, why did it work? Some may be quick to exclaim the lack of MU knowledge played a part, others may argue we really did underestimate Roy, or maybe it was simply due to the opponents not being 100% at their best. It's safe to say that all three of these played a part in the results.

So what can we take away from this- what does this mean for Roy? For the character on his own, it really doesn't mean much, but as a counter-pick, Roy may be a highly overlooked pick. The character still boasts significant strengths such as decent mobility, various combos, great pokes, throw mix-ups and kill confirms. Alongside the lack of MU knowledge, Roy isn't a particularly bad character to throw out from time to time.

I have no intention of persuading anyone to bump Roy up in their personal tier lists. As a matter of fact, on his own he's still not that great given his poor disadvantage state and questionable design. But I do think his viability as a counterpick character is widely unexplored along with several other characters who find themselves in the category we know as: Low Tier. In a game as balanced as this, a character we tend to call "bad" is still capable of situational greatness.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I for one think the Mewtwo matchup is in mewtwos favor because he can exploit shulks disadvantage state very well and rack up huge damage on him. However Shulk can use shield are as previously mentioned to extend his life span and smash to kill at ridiculously early percents. Shulk can space moves well with buster to tack on hefty damage on Mewtwo(as well as having the risk of getting bodied by mewtwos combos in this state) but Shulk has to be wary of mewtwos Dtilt which beats out all of his moves except jab. Shadow ball can pose a threat for Shulk but back air beats out small shadow balls. Not to mention shulk kills insanely early with his jump art 50-50 as early as 71%. I still believe Mewtwo has the advantage here because of his ability to rack up damage insanely fast and edging out Shulk in neutral, but this matchup isn't bad by any means as shown by Nicko vs rich brown sets at FAD weeklies.

EDIT: feel covered the points well, so no need to listen to me lol

 

[meticulousboy]

Dark.Pch Don't worry. The damage on hers is stronger anyways.

Let me move on to another topic of discussion. What exactly makes Cloud top tier since his addition in the game? Is it the fear factor? The Up Air? Limit?

 

[Kofu]

Since when was his Fthrow like that. I don't recall it being like that.

It's been one of the strongest FThrows in the game since release, along with Bowser and Wario. It has a slightly worse angle than Peach's though (45° to 140°).

 

[Krysco]

Few things I wanna comment on but held off till now since I was at work and would rather not make long posts on mobile.

First off is in regards to the post asking if anyone else was surprised about Ike's placement. I was thinking of making a similar post when I got home but saw someone else did first. Ike was one of, if not, the first character to be changed by patches in a big way. Like, at release, Ike was deemed a dysfunctional character and after just a patch or two, was being argued to be the best of the FE cast (granted, there was no Roy or Corrin and Marcina and Robin were in their pre-patch iterations too). Yet now, Ike is 2 spaces away from being a low tier and the only character between him and low tier is a character many believe should be higher since she's so similar to a high tier.

Second off is Mewtwo vs Shulk. If vanilla Shulk is in the kill percent for uthrow or slightly before it and enters Shield Monado, I don't see why Mewtwo couldn't just run away to wait out the timer with possibly some small potshots here and there. Shield Monado decreases the damage and knockback Shulk delivers allowing Mewtwo to live slightly longer too and with the garbage mobility Shield provides, it's not like Mewtwo has to fear a run up up smash from double jumping to the other side of the stage or something. That being said, the Jump Monado's increased fall speed would likely also increase uthrow survivability and that's a more offensive MA that I feel Mewtwo would fear.

Thirdly, both forward and backward killing throws have their uses. If you've got a Ness cornered on the edge of a stage, his grab is a lot more threatening than if he's the one who has you cornered. Peach's bthrow is better for having less stage control and punishing a mistake while Pit's is better for having more stage control and getting even further in with a grab at the right percents.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I never recalled that for some reason. Oh well, I was wrong about her Bthrow being stronger then his Fthrow. The rest of the point still stands as I was saying before

Ya but that's my point, pit has an amazing forward kill throw and that's what gives pit the slight advantage in edge guarding, pit is higher in the tier anyways so come up with whatever you want. peach is too inconsistent to reasonably be placed higher as well.

 

[Murlough]

@PK Gaming Murlough Nobie

Shulk in no way wins the Mewtwo matchup, but it's not an outright bad matchup for Shulk. I used to play Mewtwo myself, so I can give some sort of leverage.

Shield Art has its uses in the MU, but it's not very good against M2 because yes Shulk does become prone to being Shadow Ball camped. Best way to do it is to prolong Shulk's longetivity. People also seen to forget his shield HP increases in the Art.

It's a matchup that's a slight disadvantage for Shulk, or if I were going to go the optimistic route even at best. Shulk has the mobility to catch up with Mewtwo thanks to Speed and Jump. He has to play patient against Mewtwo and exploit openings the best he can or he gets blown up, especially with how awful his disadvantage is in Buster or Smash. Shulk loses the matchup for the same reasons Mewtwo beats every swordie (except debatably Cloud, but that's another day). Although with that said, Purge and Smash up tilt are two things Mewtwo has to respect pretty hard.

This is a good set that showcases the matchup well, I advise you three to watch it.

Thank you. I wasn't saying Mewtwo crushes Shulk. We absolutely do need to respect his options at all times.

My argument was that we didn't lose the MU.

 

[Deleted member]

I realize I'm a bit late to the party and haven't been around much lately, but I have a few thoughts regarding our boy...

He remains a somewhat controversial character in terms of tier placement and potential. The general consensus seems to be that he is low tier; as you can see in the BRTL, he is 6th worst. This is in part due to the backwards design of the character alongside his lack of results. With all that said, we've heard several voices expressing that he is in fact very overlooked and has potential in places we haven't bothered to look. It's not uncommon to see individuals place Roy in the midst of the mid tier but without results or proof, these claims generally get swept under the rug.

Not that it matters. I think it's safe to say we'll never really see a Roy solo main really ever get exceptionally far in a noteworthy tournament. However, it's not unlikely that we'll see a Roy pop up as a counterpick character. As a matter of fact, we already have.

For those who aren't aware, both Ryo and Spark (aka Heero/StaticManny/All Might/the english Dictionary) have both utilized Roy in recent sets. And they weren't against no names, Ryo pulled his Roy out against Abadango (Pound 2016 Champion) forcing him to switch to Rosalina from his widely renowned Mewtwo. Spark used his against Anti's Cloud (CEO 2016 Champion). Ryo took it to game 5, using Roy every game except game 1 before losing in a last-hit situation, whereas Spark ended up two stocking Anti's Cloud before switching back to Sonic. Notice the prestige of the defeated characters who were listed.

Now I ask you, why did it work? Some may be quick to exclaim the lack of MU knowledge played a part, others may argue we really did underestimate Roy, or maybe it was simply due to the opponents not being 100% at their best. It's safe to say that all three of these played a part in the results.

So what can we take away from this- what does this mean for Roy? For the character on his own, it really doesn't mean much, but as a counter-pick, Roy may be a highly overlooked pick. The character still boasts significant strengths such as decent mobility, various combos, great pokes, throw mix-ups and kill confirms. Alongside the lack of MU knowledge, Roy isn't a particularly bad character to throw out from time to time.

I have no intention of persuading anyone to bump Roy up in their personal tier lists. As a matter of fact, on his own he's still not that great given his poor disadvantage state and questionable design. But I do think his viability as a counterpick character is widely unexplored along with several other characters who find themselves in the category we know as: Low Tier. In a game as balanced as this, a character we tend to call "bad" is still capable of situational greatness.

Very well written post.

My viewpoint of Roy has lightened up in recent times. I still think he can't be any better than low tier because of his issues, but I don't think he's irredeemable trash like I believed myself to think he was for the longest time. I looked at the character the wrong way.

Ryo and Spark's sets that you mentioned were great showcases of Roy's kit. I feel like that if Sethlon were allowed to travel often or Ryo and Spark used Roy as a consistent counterpick or secondary, his perception would improve notably.

If there's one thing Roy has other low tiers ( and I don't consider low tier, but that's another story), it's mobility. Having a top 15 dash speed and decent walk is nothing to slouch at, even if his poor air acceleration means he has to commit a large amount in his aerial approaches. Jab, nair (!!!), DED and ftilt are also all still beautiful buttons.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Very well written post.

My viewpoint of Roy has lightened up in recent times. I still think he can't be any better than low tier because of his issues, but I don't think he's irredeemable trash like I believed myself to think he was for the longest time. I looked at the character the wrong way.

Ryo and Spark's sets that you mentioned were great showcases of Roy's kit. I feel like that if Sethlon were allowed to travel often or Ryo and Spark used Roy as a consistent counterpick or secondary, his perception would improve notably.

If there's one thing Roy has other low tiers ( and I don't consider low tier, but that's another story), it's mobility. Having a top 15 dash speed and decent walk is nothing to slouch at, even if his poor air acceleration means he has to commit a large amount in his aerial approaches. Jab, nair (!!!), DED and ftilt are also all still beautiful buttons.

You mention if Ryo or spark used Roy more often as a counter pic... Who would be worth using Roy against? Where would you use Roy that you wouldn't just use Lucinda or Marth? Idk his MU spread so I would be curious as to what you feel Roy counters.

 

[Yoshister]

You mention if Ryo or spark used Roy more often as a counter pic... Who would be worth using Roy against? Where would you use Roy that you wouldn't just use Lucinda or Marth? Idk his MU spread so I would be curious as to what you feel Roy counters.

I don't think Roy and Marcina are that comparable.

Despite having similar looking animations on numerous moves, Roy has different sweetspot locations, higher dash and airspeed, and different combos (That's not to say they're not similar at all).

 

[TDK]

Ya but that's my point, pit has an amazing forward kill throw and that's what gives pit the slight advantage in edge guarding, pit is higher in the tier anyways so come up with whatever you want. peach is too inconsistent to reasonably be placed higher as well.

"Character X is higher on the tier list therefore their tools are automatically better"
This isn't true. You can't look at a tier list and say that it's automatically fact. For instance, following your logic, I could say that Pit has a better combo game than Luigi just because he's a better character, yet Luigi has a better combo game, both on average and at max potential (Luigi gets a garunteed 27% and up to 97% if you know how to follow DI). A tier list looks at how each character is overall, and being a "better" character does not equate to being better in every regard (otherwise you could say that Ness has a better recovery than Greninja because Ness is higher up on the tier list, and that's just flat out wrong.

You mention if Ryo or spark used Roy more often as a counter pic... Who would be worth using Roy against? Where would you use Roy that you wouldn't just use Lucinda or Marth? Idk his MU spread so I would be curious as to what you feel Roy counters.

I wouldn't say Roy counters any of the top tiers specifically, but Roy has a few -1s or 45:55s with the higher tiers that might make him worth using. For example, let's say your character is -2 against Mewtwo, and roy is -1 against him. He still loses to him, but combined with the fact that most people write Roy off instantly and not learn the matchup and the fact that Roy fares better against Mewtwo than your main does, even if he still loses, makes him worth using. I should post my Roy MU spread sometime...

Also, comparing Roy to Marcina is like comparing an apple to a nectarine. While they may have similar animations, they have different properties and ultimately very different gameplans, which means that they are different characters and should be treated as such.

Also if anyone knows how to delete the image at the bottom of this post that'd be great.

 

[Rizen]

What notable Roy players are there?

 

[TDK]

What notable Roy players are there?

Ryo and Spark/Static Manny/Heero/Static/All Might/Whatever his name of the week is are the two big ones, even if they use him as a matchup-specific counterpick. There aren't many solo Roys that have done well... maybe Sethlon if you want local footage?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Ya but that's my point, pit has an amazing forward kill throw and that's what gives pit the slight advantage in edge guarding, pit is higher in the tier anyways so come up with whatever you want. peach is too inconsistent to reasonably be placed higher as well.

Having a kill does not make Pit a better edgeguarding. Peach has more ways to edgeguard and kill off stage then pit does. Also Peach has been more consistent than Pit. So IDK where you are getting this info from. And don't worship a tier in cases like this. If Ganon was higher then pit on the tier list. I know damm way you would not agree with that. Peach is a better edge guarder and ledge guarder then Pit. So the point you are making is flawed.

 

[Nobie]

Thank you. I wasn't saying Mewtwo crushes Shulk. We absolutely do need to respect his options at all times.

My argument was that we didn't lose the MU.

I should clarify that I thought the matchup might be in Shulk's favor, but could see it being even or even slightly in Mewtwo's favor. Right now I think it's somewhere between -1 and 0 for Mewtwo but could be swayed. For comparison's sake, I think Mewtwo vs. Lucario is between 0 and +1 for Mewtwo, and between -1 and 0 versus Ike.

I don't necessarily think Mewtwo beats all swordies, because it depends heavily on the opponent's range and ability to rack up damage. Mewtwo's down tilt is a really good move for what it is. Frame 6 on an attack that ranged with the ability to create follow ups is super good. However, I feel like Mewtwo starts to have some trouble with characters who can out-range it, because then Mewtwo has to be a lot more careful about spacing than against other characters.

The reason why I think Mewtwo might be advantaged vs. Sheik but might also be disadvantaged vs. Shulk comes down to this. Even pre-Sheik fair nerf, Mewtwo's own fair could challenge it pretty reliably. Though slower, the slight disjoint meant it could whiff punish or even trade more often than not, and the trade would always be in Mewtwo's favor. Post-patch, that balance might even lean in Mewtwo's favor. A character like Shulk, though, can keep Mewtwo at bay thanks to that massive sword disjoint, carrying the potential to just keep Mewtwo straight out. Mewtwo's forward-facing pokes, though good for what they are, end up getting out-ranged by massive Ike/Shulk-sized blades.

 

[Ffamran]

Pit has so many multihit moves. So smash DI might harm him. But I guess it all comes down to who is better at juggling.

SDI isn't as strong as it was in Brawl and Melee. That and going through the Pits' frame data, they don't have SDI multipliers above normal x1.0, instead, the have SDI multipliers below normal SDI like Up Smash's last hit has a x0.0 multiplier, Nair's loop hits have a x0.8 multiplier, and Uair's loop hits have a x0.7 SDI multiplier. This isn't the game where having normal SDI multipliers can wreck multi-hits like Brawl Falco's Fair which itself was a **** move to begin with or moves like Brawl Fox's Uair? and Brawl Marth's Dancing Blade which apparently could be DI'd out normally. If Lucas's Nair had x2.0 SDI in Brawl or Bayonetta debuted in Brawl with 1.1.6's Witch Twist's SDI? They would get destroyed.

Just a question: where is your idea that SDI harms all multi-hit moves including ones with normal, x1.0 multipliers or moves that aren't multi-hits to begin with like Lucas's Down Smash?

Pit's raw frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/pit.

Let's settle this once and for all. Let me take a look at Kurogane Hammer.

Peach's Bthrow: 11% fresh, 35 BKB, 95 KBG
Pit's Fthrow: 10% fresh, 50 BKB, 150 KBG

I guess Pit has the better kill throw, though Peach is the one that does more damage. So she has that going for her.

Some clarification, it's total damage since a 10% move with that kind of knockback would probably be KO'ing at sub-100%. Most throws have a "special hitbox" or a set-up hit that doesn't have its knockback applied to the launch hit. For Peach, the launch hit only does 9%. For Pit, the launch hit is 4% and if didn't have that kind of knockback, it wouldn't really be good... at all. Treat it as a multi-hit where the last hit if it does around 5%, needs to have high growth or high overall knockback e.g. Captain Falcon's rapid jab finisher, or it would just be pathetic.

Also, Pit's F-throw had similar knockback since Brawl. Smash 4 upped the base by 20 from its old 30 value. Factoring rage not existing and momentum canceling existing in Brawl plus the lower base, they would explain why Pit's F-throw wasn't known for KO'ing in Brawl.

Same deal with Ness; Ness's B-throw was unchanged from Brawl. In Ness's case, having a terrible time in Brawl probably added to Ness just not being there to show his B-throw could do anything.

Brawl Ness's frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitNess.php#grab.

Brawl Pit's frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitPit.php#grab.

What notable Roy players are there?

There's also Neath, a French player. Le roi Roy. The Roy boards and PR directory might be more helpful for this.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Let's settle this once and for all. Let me take a look at Kurogane Hammer.

Peach's Bthrow: 11% fresh, 35 BKB, 95 KBG
Pit's Fthrow: 10% fresh, 50 BKB, 150 KBG

I guess Pit has the better kill throw, though Peach is the one that does more damage. So she has that going for her.

Stop

Pits fthrow is 6%, 4% for a total of 10%. So it's actually:

Peach's Bthrow: 11% fresh, 35 BKB, 95 KBG
Pit's Fthrow: 4% fresh, 50 BKB, 150 KBG

KH has everything on 1.1.5. But I am just as surprised as you.

Also stop

Everything is 1.1.6 on KH

 

[meticulousboy]

I try to factor SDI in everything because I know how game changing it can be if someone were to do it in godlike fashion.
It felt good when I successfully smash DI'd out of Lucas' Nair.

Stop? You see, this is exactly why I hate talking on here.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

"Character X is higher on the tier list therefore their tools are automatically better"
This isn't true. You can't look at a tier list and say that it's automatically fact. For instance, following your logic, I could say that Pit has a better combo game than Luigi just because he's a better character, yet Luigi has a better combo game, both on average and at max potential (Luigi gets a garunteed 27% and up to 97% if you know how to follow DI). A tier list looks at how each character is overall, and being a "better" character does not equate to being better in every regard (otherwise you could say that Ness has a better recovery than Greninja because Ness is higher up on the tier list, and that's just flat out wrong.

I wouldn't say Roy counters any of the top tiers specifically, but Roy has a few -1s or 45:55s with the higher tiers that might make him worth using. For example, let's say your character is -2 against Mewtwo, and roy is -1 against him. He still loses to him, but combined with the fact that most people write Roy off instantly and not learn the matchup and the fact that Roy fares better against Mewtwo than your main does, even if he still loses, makes him worth using. I should post my Roy MU spread sometime...

Also, comparing Roy to Marcina is like comparing an apple to a nectarine. While they may have similar animations, they have different properties and ultimately very different gameplans, which means that they are different characters and should be treated as such.

Also if anyone knows how to delete the image at the bottom of this post that'd be great.

who the hell would bother using Roy as a secondary if your only getting a -1 MU out of it, that's still bad, why not pick someone who goes even or better? I really don't think I'm im being to unreasonable comparing Roy to Lucina, ya they have differences but come on don't be a ****. They are very similar characters.

 

[vertime]

who the hell would bother using Roy as a secondary if your only getting a -1 MU out of it, that's still bad, why not pick someone who goes even or better? I really don't think I'm im being to unreasonable comparing Roy to Lucina, ya they have differences but come on don't be a ****. They are very similar characters.

I don't think they are that similar. You play them differently to say the least.
I would also like to go on record as me saying I don't think Roy is above Mid Tier but he's certainly at least high low tier.

 

[TDK]

who the hell would bother using Roy as a secondary if your only getting a -1 MU out of it, that's still bad, why not pick someone who goes even or better? I really don't think I'm im being to unreasonable comparing Roy to Lucina, ya they have differences but come on don't be a ****. They are very similar characters.

No, they're not. Roy wants to bait you and/or get in while Lucina plays exactly like Marth, with more safety and less reward at maximum spacing but more reward up close. If you're trying to rush down as Lucina you might as well play Roy, and if you're trying to keep people out as Roy you might as well play Lucina (or Marth).

Also, you phrase it as though it's easy to pick up and use to their full potential every single character in the game. For example, I can't use Olimar or MK like, at all. ZeRo has gone on record saying he is "The definition of ass with Bowser Jr". Additionally, -1 is the equivalent of "play smart and better than your opponent" in this game, not "severely outplay your opponent" like in other games. Matchups are a lot less strict in smash 4.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Stop? You see, this is exactly why I hate talking on here.

The CCI has never been the place for intelligent or well thought out arguments. Don't take it personally, I just correct people when they say things that are wrong regardless of who they are.

 

[Dark.Pch]

who the hell would bother using Roy as a secondary if your only getting a -1 MU out of it, that's still bad, why not pick someone who goes even or better? I really don't think I'm im being to unreasonable comparing Roy to Lucina, ya they have differences but come on don't be a ****. They are very similar characters.

You should tell that to Nairo, when instead of going shiek or diddy kong he used Doc to put down a high level player in tournament.

 

[vertime]

Matchups are a lot less strict in smash 4.

Well what game are you comparing with Smash 4 that shows the lack of strictness within the matchups? I agree with your point on playing the characters differently but I think if you're gonna choose Roy based on the fact that he has a -1 MU against someone that your main has a -2 MU against, you might as well pick a character that has a better MU if you can. If Roy is your best bet, fair enough but really you should probably have a secondary that covers the bad MUs that your main has.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Defiantly high low tier, Roy is too fast and powerful to be any lower.

No, they're not. Roy wants to bait you and/or get in while Lucina plays exactly like Marth, with more safety and less reward at maximum spacing but more reward up close. If you're trying to rush down as Lucina you might as well play Roy, and if you're trying to keep people out as Roy you might as well play Lucina (or Marth).

Also, you phrase it as though it's easy to pick up and use to their full potential every single character in the game. For example, I can't use Olimar or MK like, at all. ZeRo has gone on record saying he is "The definition of *** with Bowser Jr". Additionally, -1 is the equivalent of "play smart and better than your opponent" in this game, not "severely outplay your opponent" like in other games. Matchups are a lot less strict in smash 4.

Just freaking pick up Mario!!!! How hard is that to pick up as a secondary? I'm not saying that all characters have the same learning curve, but there are lots of easy to learn characters that would have better MU spreads and therefore make better theoretical secondaries. Pit, Kirby, or DK are all easy to pick up and have more even spreads. Why make it harder on yourself?

 

[vertime]

Just freaking pick up Mario!!!! How hard is that to pick up as a secondary?

Well, I don't like Mario. I'm not going to secondary someone I don't enjoy playing. Passion plays a big role, my man. If I don't like the character, I'm not going to want to improve as much with them. Tot that MU down to -1 instead of a +2 because I'm a lazy sod who hates the bugger I secondaried because he had a better MU spread.

Also ROY'S POWER HOLY HELL IT'S NUTS, AIN'T IT? FSMASH KILLS AT LIKE 100 AND UP B AT LIKE 110 OOOOH MY GOOOOD.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

You should tell that to Nairo, when instead of going shiek or diddy kong he used Doc to put down a high level player in tournament.

I think doc has the advantage against pikachu. As a pika main myself I feel like esam is too optimistic about pikachu's spread. I feel like pika struggles against doc, luigi, Lucas, and lucario despite him saying it's even or pika favor. So that was in my opinion at least +1 for nairo.

Well, I don't like Mario. I'm not going to secondary someone I don't enjoy playing. Passion plays a big role, my man. If I don't like the character, I'm not going to want to improve as much with them. Tot that MU down to -1 instead of a +2 because I'm a lazy sod who hates the bugger I secondaried because he had a better MU spread.

Also ROY'S POWER HOLY HELL IT'S NUTS, AIN'T IT? FSMASH KILLS AT LIKE 100 AND UP B AT LIKE 110 OOOOH MY GOOOOD.

I named other characters as well sir... Make sure u read ALL of what people say

 

[vertime]

I named other characters as well sir... Make sure u read ALL of what people say

My point wasn't "MEEH IM ARGUING WITH YOU MEEH" it was some people might not like to play the people who have a good matchup coverage on their main. You gotta take into account that people won't secondary people they won't like so statements like "Just freaking pick up Mario" is not as easy as you make it sound.

Make sure you understand the main point of an argument before you answer condescendingly.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

My point wasn't "MEEH IM ARGUING WITH YOU MEEH" it was some people might not like to play the people who have a good matchup coverage on their main. You gotta take into account that people won't main people they won't like so statements like "Just freaking pick up Mario" is not as easy as you make it sound.

Isn't the point of a competitive discussion to optimize strategys and try to win? I don't care what your preference is, if you main X character and Y character covers those MUs that X loses, then obviously the optimal secondary is Y regardless of "I don't like them" well great, but others might want to know good solid advise that is non biased.

 

[vertime]

Isn't the point of a competitive discussion to optimize strategys and try to win? I don't care what your preference is, if you main X character and Y character covers those MUs that X loses, then obviously the optimal secondary is Y regardless of "I don't like them" well great, but others might want to know good solid advise that is non biased.

Don't think you're quite getting what I'm saying. I am not saying "Hey I don't like this character so nobody else can"
I'm saying that granted, you can talk about the optimal strategy but saying "JUST PICK UP MARIO" is the wrong way to phrase advice. Advice would be "If you want to cover that matchup, pick up Mario or something that you enjoy that covers that bad matchup" It's about efficiency.

You've essentially just said that strategy and competitive prowess outweighs fun in a video game, universally. Y'know the item of leisure made for fun, however you may decide to pursue that fun.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think doc has the advantage against pikachu. As a pika main myself I feel like esam is too optimistic about pikachu's spread. I feel like pika struggles against doc, luigi, Lucas, and lucario despite him saying it's even or pika favor. So that was in my opinion at least +1 for nairo.

Going based on what you are saying in this thread, he should have went Diddy. I dont know these match ups so I am not gonna speak on that, But Zero tore Esam a new on in grand finals at shine. That looked worst then what Nairo did with Doc.

 

[vertime]

Going based on what you are saying in this thread, he should have went Diddy. I dont know these match ups so I am not gonna speak on that, But Zero tore Esam a new on in grand finals at shine. That looked worst then what Nairo did with Doc.

Oh, dude, that match was harsh, I saw that.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Don't think you're quite getting what I'm saying. I am not saying "Hey I don't like this character so nobody else can"
I'm saying that granted, you can talk about the optimal strategy but saying "JUST PICK UP MARIO" is the wrong way to phrase advice. Advice would be "If you want to cover that matchup, pick up Mario or something that you enjoy that covers that bad matchup" It's about efficiency.

You've essentially just said that strategy and competitive prowess outweighs fun in a video game, universally. Y'know the item of leisure made for fun, however you may decide to pursue that fun.

Agreed, perhaps I should have phrased it the way you put it. I meant Mario as an example rather than a specific go to. Regardless with such a large cast I don't think anyone should have to play a -1 if you don't want too.

 

[vertime]

Agreed, perhaps I should have phrased it the way you put it. I meant Mario as an example rather than a specific go to. Regardless with such a large cast I don't think anyone should have to play a -1 if you don't want too.

Yeah man, I see where you're comin' from.

 

[Ffamran]

I try to factor SDI in everything because I know how game changing it can be if someone were to do it in godlike fashion.
It felt good when I successfully smash DI'd out of Lucas' Nair.

Okay, but like I said and have asked people about SDI, SDI isn't as strong compared to in past games. Another thing is that there isn't a readily available list of moves that have high or low SDI. For example: Fox's Fair loop hits have a SDI multiplier of x1.3. It's not x2.0, but it's something and yet as far as I know, people don't talk about SDI'ing out of Fox's Fair. Having a list would help as it did for when rapid jab frame data was dropped explaining why some rapid jabs were difficult to get out of such as Fox's having a x0.4 SDI multiplier along with stuff like Palutena's having a hitbox with an angle that pushes you in or Triple D's having 2 hitboxes with 20-ish set knockback. For SDI, Falco and Greninja's are the only one with above normal SDI, x1.2 for Falco and x1.1 for Greninja. Not x2.0 level, but knowing that plus their hit frames, transition frame from jab 2, knockback, and a guess on their hitboxes explains why theirs are easier to get out.

Opinion: A problem with SDI is that I don't know if people are actively SDI'ing out of stuff. It gets talked up about how SDI destroys Lucas's Nair or Bayonetta's everything, but I just don't see it. If they are doing it, then either they're really bad at it or it's not enough as SDI isn't as strong as in previous games. There's gifs of SDI, but it seems like TAS-level SDI which isn't practical -- happened the moment 1.1.6 dropped and there were gifs of Bayonetta's Witch Twist being SDI with stuff like "Bayonetta's dead!" If they aren't doing it, then what the hell? It's not automatic and the game's definitely not going to handhold you, so start doing it then.

Anyway, factoring SDI into multi-hit moves is fine, but it would be helpful if the SDI was known. Just because something is a multi-hit doesn't mean it's automatically susceptible to SDI such as Pits' Nair and Uair having below x1.0 SDI or his Fair which has normal x1.0 SDI. Factoring SDI into "special" moves like Lucas's Down Smash doesn't work when its not a multi-hit, but a single hit. Factoring SDI into everything is probably not that great either unless the SDI is known such as Bayonetta's down Afterburner Kick.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Going based on what you are saying in this thread, he should have went Diddy. I dont know these match ups so I am not gonna speak on that, But Zero tore Esam a new on in grand finals at shine. That looked worst then what Nairo did with Doc.

I don't think nairo cares for diddy... Anyways I honestly think zero is just a lot better than esam. Most diddy mains and pikachu mains agree diddy vs pika is in pika's favor. This is further by esam wrecking MVD and other notable diddy's consistently. Esam choked.

 

[vertime]

Anyways I honestly think zero is just a lot better than esam

AMEN

 

[Murlough]

The CCI has never been the place for intelligent or well thought out arguments. Don't take it personally, I just correct people when they say things that are wrong regardless of who they are.

Never? I mean, I see a lot of silly arguments that go no where. I've also seen people who have absolutely know idea what they are talking about. But never?

Anyway, Pit is the definition of mid tier. He is like Melee Mario. Just THE basic character. Nothing great. Nothing horribly bad. Just basic. I don't think he is better than Corrin or Marth by a long shot.

They both have solid tools at their disposal. Pit's are just average.

I don't even know why we are discussing Pika at the moment. The same arguments we see today are the same we've seen the past few months. Until ESAM gets out of his "rutt," Pika will continue getting nonimpressive results to prove he is anything more than low high tier at best.

 

[Krysco]

Speaking of sdi, it's often mentioned how easy it is to sdi out of Lucas' nair and upon the patch coming out, many thought it was doom and gloom for Bayonetta because of the sdi multiplier being raised among other things. Yet that's somewhat vague. Sdi where? With Lucas' nair, if you sdi right and he's going right would it do anything? If you sdi'd up would you just fall back in? For Bayo, I'm guessing sdi'ing either left or right is the best although down sounds plausible too. I recall reading posts mentioning that sdi'ing Bayo's Witch Twist doesn't matter if she reads it right. She can still get the same ladder combos she got before, she just has to read.

I'm a bit more confident in knowing how to sdi the likes of MK's uair and...R.O.B.s down smash. Pretty sure the uair is sdi'd away since eventually, MK can't keep up with you and the dsmash is just straight up and you pop out before the finisher hits you. Kinda like how Brawl Pika's dsmash worked.