Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

Pit's disadvantage is pretty good against a lot of chars but the ones that I imagine giving him trouble in this regard are those that can pressure him regardless of his multijumps due to one drawback: his actual landing options are pretty bad. I mean there's a really straightforward design reason for it, a multijump char with disjointed attacks and low landing lag in this game would be pretty stupid, so they opted to give him really good ACs that work from neutral and in advantage well. However in disadvantage if you can actually chase him down and pressure him in a scary way and he's forced to land, it gets....dicey. I don't believe there's a single falling aerial he has that strikes me as a good idea when it comes to landing options.

Food for thought I guess.

 

[Illusion.]

Who does Pit lose to anyways?

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I think it's funny how at the beginning of this thread everyone was saying how pikachu is overrated and that he is not worthy of his spot, but then esam gets second at shine lol...

 

[Murlough]

I think it's funny how at the beginning of this thread everyone was saying how pikachu is overrated and that he is not worthy of his spot, but then esam gets second at shine lol...

One victory doesn't make a character high tier...lol.

 

[Das Koopa]

I think it's funny how at the beginning of this thread everyone was saying how pikachu is overrated and that he is not worthy of his spot, but then esam gets second at shine lol...

he didn't have much of a hard bracket and put up less of a fight towards ZeRo than Mr. E

Not to take away from his good result but his hardest opponent that he beat was M2K and I don't exactly expect him to make top 8 at TBH6 or G4.

Shine is most noteworthy because of Dath's run, which was more comparatively impressive than anybody else at the tourney. 2-1 Marss, 3-0 SGK, 3-1 6WX, 3-1 Larry Lurr, 3-2 6WX, with his elimination as a 2-3 to ESAM. The only person who really tore him apart was ZeRo.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Who does Pit lose to anyways?

That's the kinda the big question, he is a really balanced character that doesn't struggle with any particular aspect of the game. Pit can space, pit can edgeguard well, thanks to multi jumps he can land reasonably well, he is hard to gimp without a good meteor, has a good projectile and a kill throw. As a former pit main I feel like his placement in the tier list is pretty fair. Compare his abilities to the abilities to others in D tier, he is the only one of them without a glaring fatal flaw, luigi has trouble spacing, rob is slow and combo food, peach is honestly just difficult to play/learn, dk is combo food and can't land, and yoshi has a bad grab. Pit feels like a more complete set of tools than others in his tier. I just don't see how a character with all these qualities could be lower than upper mid tier...

 

[C0rvus]

Pit loses to Sonic for sure, Sheik Diddy and Rosa at least slightly. I can see Meta Knight, Fox, Ryu and Mewtwo maybe being losses as well, but you'd be better off getting an answer from a real Pit player.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Pit loses to Sonic for sure, Sheik Diddy and Rosa at least slightly. I can see Meta Knight, Fox, Ryu and Mewtwo maybe being losses as well, but you'd be better off getting an answer from a real Pit player.

You can't count rosa as a bad MU because of dark Pitt having a slight advantage over her, Pitt players play both characters and the do have every so slightly different MU spreads.

Prolly should elaborate but dark pit has the lateral hitting side special which is a Luma killer for sure

 

[meticulousboy]

Let me ask something about Pit, then. What exactly makes him higher than Peach? Pit's recovery is more linear and easy to edgeguard than Peach. Guardian Orbitars is only useful in certain matchups, whereas all of Peach's specials are important. Vegetable is mainly used IN NEUTRAL.

Also, my apologies @Joey T.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

That's the kinda the big question, he is a really balanced character that doesn't struggle with any particular aspect of the game. Pit can space, pit can edgeguard well, thanks to multi jumps he can land reasonably well, he is hard to gimp without a good meteor, has a good projectile and a kill throw. As a former pit main I feel like his placement in the tier list is pretty fair. Compare his abilities to the abilities to others in D tier, he is the only one of them without a glaring fatal flaw, luigi has trouble spacing, rob is slow and combo food, peach is honestly just difficult to play/learn, dk is combo food and can't land, and yoshi has a bad grab. Pit feels like a more complete set of tools than others in his tier. I just don't see how a character with all these qualities could be lower than upper mid tier...

well considering his lack of fast get off me options, I can see him losing to characters that excel in up close pressure (Fox, Mac, C Falcon, Sheik, plumbers, etc)

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

well considering his lack of fast get off me options, I can see him losing to characters that excel in up close pressure (Fox, Mac, C Falcon, Sheik, plumbers, etc)

I can see that being partly true, but pit has a great jab and that's how I usually felt with faster oppinents.

 

[C0rvus]

Let me ask something about Pit, then. What exactly makes him higher than Peach? Pit's recovery is more linear and easy to edgeguard than Peach. Guardian Orbitars is only useful in certain matchups, whereas all of Peach's specials are important. Vegetable is mainly used IN NEUTRAL.

Also, my apologies @Joey T.

Pit's neutral is better because he's got better ground mobility and burst options, as well as a better projectile and more disjoint. In disadvantage he has multiple jumps, and I think his kill throw is stronger but I could be wrong. It's certainly better because of it's forward nature, which makes Pit's ledge presence pretty threatening. Peach's advantaged state is pretty good, but getting there can be hard. FWIW the two characters are likely of similar ranking, but I think Pit is better.

 

[wm1026]

Just my two sense on Yoshi. I feel like I see him being played as a rush down character most of the time which just doesn't really work for him. Yes he has good frame data but he doesn't have the range or disjoint to just run in blindly. Not to mention that he has no real way to deal with shield. Grab is horrible and even if you get it, you get no reward because of no follow ups AND horrible damage on his throws. Egg lay has to much start up, and down B can be rolled away from. If Yoshi had a good grab and/or good throws then he would be high tier. I'd consider him even higher if so of his aerials were disjointed at all. Yoshi is a bait and punish character. I'd say his best trait is going from defense to offense seemlessly. Right now upper tier works. Maybe low high

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Let me ask something about Pit, then. What exactly makes him higher than Peach? Pit's recovery is more linear and easy to edgeguard than Peach. Guardian Orbitars is only useful in certain matchups, whereas all of Peach's specials are important. Vegetable is mainly used IN NEUTRAL.

Also, my apologies @Joey T.

I mean they are pretty damn close in the tier list idk what your ******** about, heck most people put Pitt and dark pit as the same character and we have two characters I between!!! If that doesn't tell you that D tier is close idk what would.

 

[meticulousboy]

Pit has so many multihit moves. So smash DI might harm him. But I guess it all comes down to who is better at juggling.

 

[Onoh]

I was going to say that I didn't understand why Marth was so high compared to before, (he hasn't changed very much gameplay wise and sure he's great at spacing and getting early kills, but his overall range and lack of kill confirms makes him hard to play) but then I realized C. Falcon kind of does the same thing and Marth has disjoints so I was like "Sure!"

Also seeing Mewtwo so high makes me happy.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Pit's neutral is better because he's got better ground mobility and burst options, as well as a better projectile and more disjoint. In disadvantage he has multiple jumps, and I think his kill throw is stronger but I could be wrong. It's certainly better because of it's forward nature, which makes Pit's ledge presence pretty threatening. Peach's advantaged state is pretty good, but getting there can be hard. FWIW the two characters are likely of similar ranking, but I think Pit is better.

Peach is better an ledge guarding then pit. I made a video talking about where peach should be in the last tier list.I'm gonna have to make a new one with adding why she should be over DK and Lucario.

Go to 0:46. I explain why I think Peach is a better character.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I was going to say that I didn't understand why Marth was so high compared to before, (he hasn't changed very much gameplay wise and sure he's great at spacing and getting early kills, but his overall range and lack of kill confirms makes him hard to play) but then I realized C. Falcon kind of does the same thing and Marth has disjoints so I was like "Sure!"

Also seeing Mewtwo so high makes me happy.

Pre patch Marcina is muuuuuuch worse than post patch, no contest.

 

[Onoh]

Pre patch Marcina is muuuuuuch worse than post patch, no contest.

How exactly? I know landing lag was a problem and they got damage buffs.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Peach is better an ledge guarding then pit. I made a video talking about where peach should be in the last tier list.I'm gonna have to make a new one with adding why she should be over DK and Lucario.

Go to 0:46. I explain why I think Peach is a better character.

Not when pit has a forward kill throw at the ledge...

 

[Dark.Pch]

Not when pit has a forward kill throw at the ledge...

Not when Peach has Back throw near the ledge......

 

[meticulousboy]

Not when pit has a forward kill throw at the ledge...

So...does this mean we need to compare their kill throws just to determine their placement on the tier list? Do note that we have to compare damage, BKB, and KBG.

 

[Nobie]

I actually think Shulk might be +1 vs. Mewtwo.

Shield Monado is a big deal because it all but negates Up Throw as a kill option. So you pile on more damage and run away. Then he switches to Smash and becomes Lucario's weird cousin, except he can reliably kill off of a normal grab, and has a huge disjoint that will kill at like 60% now.

You'd think slow startup Shulk wouldn't be that much of a problem, but smart Monado use is scary for someone so frail.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Not when Peach has Back throw near the ledge......

A forward kill throw is more convenient for kills than a back throw, plus pits throw has more knock back I believe

 

[TDK]

A forward kill throw is more convenient for kills than a back throw, plus pits throw has more knock back I believe

You want a forward kill? Forward air kills about 2/3rds as early as Pit's Fthrow. Oh, you shielded? Well, I'll just float behind you and back throw you. Boom.

 

[Trunks159]

he didn't have much of a hard bracket and put up less of a fight towards ZeRo than Mr. E

Not to take away from his good result but his hardest opponent that he beat was M2K and I don't exactly expect him to make top 8 at TBH6 or G4.

Shine is most noteworthy because of Dath's run, which was more comparatively impressive than anybody else at the tourney. 2-1 Marss, 3-0 SGK, 3-1 6WX, 3-1 Larry Lurr, 3-2 6WX, with his elimination as a 2-3 to ESAM. The only person who really tore him apart was ZeRo.

Exactly. The absence of Mario and Shiek held a large impact on the results of this tourney. If Dath ran into Ally, Mr. r, or Void, I don't think he'd make it as far. Same with Pikachu.

I think the most noteworthy thing we can take from this tourney is the Robin v. Sonic matchup.

 

[Murlough]

I actually think Shulk might be +1 vs. Mewtwo.

Shield Monado is a big deal because it all but negates Up Throw as a kill option. So you pile on more damage and run away. Then he switches to Smash and becomes Lucario's weird cousin, except he can reliably kill off of a normal grab, and has a huge disjoint that will kill at like 60% now.

You'd think slow startup Shulk wouldn't be that much of a problem, but smart Monado use is scary for someone so frail.

Please don't bring up shield as a vaild option against Mewtwo. He will be catching shadow balls all day.

I can't see it. Even if Mewtwo was at a high enough percent for shulk to kill with Smash monado (Shulk has to actually get him there btw) he has to land the move on a character that out speeds him in every way and has one of the best projectiles in the game.

I get your reasoning but it feels like one of those "on paper" arguments that has no bearing on actual play.

 

[FamilyTeam]

How exactly? I know landing lag was a problem and they got damage buffs.

See it for yourself:
Marth's changelog
Lucina's changelog

Before the last patch that buffed them, both of them were arguably Bottom 15 material. Nowadays, both of them are Top 25 minimum. Some people even rate Marth as Top 15 (me included). So yeah, the buffs were significant.

 

[Nobie]

Please don't bring up shield as a vaild option against Mewtwo. He will be catching shadow balls all day.

I can't see it. Even if Mewtwo was at a high enough percent for shulk to kill with Smash monado (Shulk has to actually get him there btw) he has to land the move on a character that out speeds him in every way and has one of the best projectiles in the game.

I get your reasoning but it feels like one of those "on paper" arguments that has no bearing on actual play.

If Shulk is eating Shadow Balls in shield that plays in his favor in some respects because it means more rage.

It doesn't take much for Mewtwo to be at death percent vs. Smash Monado. This isn't like, oh, you're at 90%, time to get an early kill. This is "Shulk is at Max rage from camping in Shield and now if you misspace fair or dtilt you're getting an ftilt or Vision to the face that kills you at 55%."

Percentages might be off.

 

[PK Gaming]

Please don't bring up shield as a vaild option against Mewtwo. He will be catching shadow balls all day.

I can't see it. Even if Mewtwo was at a high enough percent for shulk to kill with Smash monado (Shulk has to actually get him there btw) he has to land the move on a character that out speeds him in every way and has one of the best projectiles in the game.

I get your reasoning but it feels like one of those "on paper" arguments that has no bearing on actual play.

I figure Mewtwo would just camp out Shield anyway. Literally nothing Shulk can do about it. I don't main either character, but I can't see Shulk winning this one, based on what I know of the characters.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Gonna be the guy that slides in and adds Falcon to "will never touch the stage." Dunno how you forgot =P

I know this is an older post but I just forgot about it until now. Falcon's not amazing at landing, but he's not in that sort of tier when it comes to landing. Falcon's one of the characters that just tries to go back to the ledge or he bairs someone either as he's falling or after an air dodge. It's enough to make landing not too much of a hassle but still not amazing.

I was going to say that I didn't understand why Marth was so high compared to before, (he hasn't changed very much gameplay wise and sure he's great at spacing and getting early kills, but his overall range and lack of kill confirms makes him hard to play) but then I realized C. Falcon kind of does the same thing and Marth has disjoints so I was like "Sure!"

Also seeing Mewtwo so high makes me happy.

Marth does have kill confirms, stray hits just tend to be easier to get. Example, (aerial DB1 >) nair1 > usmash/jab > follow up (f/usmash. u/ftilt, an aerial.) Not to mention he's got a solid enough kill throw and is amazing at edge guarding.

 

[Dark.Pch]

A forward kill throw is more convenient for kills than a back throw, plus pits throw has more knock back I believe

Not it is not, cause all of that depends on stage position. So you bringing up that through does not hold any weight Cause I could play the same game. And my Bthrow has more knockback.

 

[meticulousboy]

Let's settle this once and for all. Let me take a look at Kurogane Hammer.

Peach's Bthrow: 11% fresh, 35 BKB, 95 KBG
Pit's Fthrow: 10% fresh, 50 BKB, 150 KBG

I guess Pit has the better kill throw, though Peach is the one that does more damage. So she has that going for her.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Let's settle this once and for all. Let me take a look at Kurogane Hammer.

Peach's Bthrow: 11% fresh, 35 BKB, 95 KBG
Pit's Fthrow: 10% fresh, 50 BKB, 150 KBG

I guess Pit has the better kill throw, though Peach is the one that does more damage. So she has that going for her.

Since when was his Fthrow like that. I don't recall it being like that.

 

[meticulousboy]

Since when was his Fthrow like that. I don't recall it being like that.

KH has everything on 1.1.5. But I am just as surprised as you.

 

[Murlough]

If Shulk is eating Shadow Balls in shield that plays in his favor in some respects because it means more rage.

It doesn't take much for Mewtwo to be at death percent vs. Smash Monado. This isn't like, oh, you're at 90%, time to get an early kill. This is "Shulk is at Max rage from camping in Shield and now if you misspace fair or dtilt you're getting an ftilt or Vision to the face that kills you at 55%."

Percentages might be off.

...I fully understand that. My points still stand. All the rage in the world is great but he still has to land a good hit on Mewtwo.

You are also forgetting that more rage means more percent on shulk...while in smash....against a character who excels at killing...

Once again I see your argument but in practice Mewtwo should destroy Shulk unless s/he gets careless.

I figure Mewtwo would just camp out Shield anyway. Literally nothing Shulk can do about it. I don't main either character, but I can't see Shulk winning this one, based on what I know of the characters.

Thats exactly what I'm saying, though.

 

[TDK]

Since when was his Fthrow like that. I don't recall it being like that.

I beleive Pit's Fthrow has always been a stock cap throw.

Exactly. The absence of Mario and Shiek held a large impact on the results of this tourney. If Dath ran into Ally, Mr. r, or Void, I don't think he'd make it as far. Same with Pikachu.

I think the most noteworthy thing we can take from this tourney is the Robin v. Sonic matchup.

Dath did beat ANTi at EVO, so unless ANTi counterpicked him the whole set, Dath would've had to go through and win, which he did.

 

[Ninety]

Exactly. The absence of Mario and Shiek held a large impact on the results of this tourney. If Dath ran into Ally, Mr. r, or Void, I don't think he'd make it as far. Same with Pikachu.

I think the most noteworthy thing we can take from this tourney is the Robin v. Sonic matchup.

Robin's matchup on Sheik isn't notably worse than those against other top tiers. She dies stupidly early to Checkmate.

 

[Makorel]

I know I will sound harsh, but if you cannot add anything more useful to the discussion, you should refrain yourself from posting this kind of thing.

To add to the discussion of the viability of Pit, if I recall correctly, Nairo said he stopped using him seriously because he has no quick "get off me" options when his opponent is really close. Question for the Pit experts, is that so? And it's that big of a deal?

Nair is that move, and one of Pit's best move in general even when it does 0% damage. It comes out quick enough to interrupt Falcon Upair chains and Fox Uptilt chains. Using it as an OOS option is a good way to stay safe and potentially get a punish on someone trying to catch you dropping shield. It allows Pit to hit someone right behind him quickly, something no other move in his kit can do. Throwing out short hop or even full hop Nairs doesn't usually hit anything but it can get something started, so you might as well because it's relatively safe. It can be used to help mix up approaches if dash grab/dash attack is failing. It combos out of Dair. It's another option to help land along with fair, bair, 3 double jumps and if you autocancel you can go right into an offensive or defensive option. If you land with it badly but your opponent still gets caught you can chain it into a downsmash at low percents or upsmash and upair at higher percents. This usually happens for me against a Falcon I know that likes to double jab grab, but recently he's started powershielding my Nair after his jab so I've started jumping out of it.

Nair doesn't work for everything, Shiek Ftilt chains can't be broken, it's easy to take Diddy's Fair the wrong way, you do NOT want to land on Mario with it, and basically certain characters are more easily fought by zoning them, but it's a safe aggressive option against people who like to wait and react and against smaller hitboxes (or non existent hitboxes aka grabs) it can give you some very lucrative reversals.

Also jab. even at frame 5 it does its job well because of its reach. I have clanked with jabs coming from behind me with it but I don't specifically know why that works.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I never recalled that for some reason. Oh well, I was wrong about her Bthrow being stronger then his Fthrow. The rest of the point still stands as I was saying before