Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Skeeter Mania]

And here we are with another ZeRo video:

 

[Yonder]

During the stream I heard from the commentators that Elegant went all Ganon this tournament, with him lamenting his decision while on the mic, which is likely why he placed lower than usual.

Now...Sky Williams placing 9th? THAT is unexpected.

Question is: WHY did Elegant go all Ganondorf? Not like he is better than Luigi, and I don't think Ganondorf is really in his player history...He goes like 95% Luigi, 2.5% Fox, others.

Most people upgrade not downgrade characters.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Question is: WHY did Elegant go all Ganondorf? Not like he is better than Luigi, and I don't think Ganondorf is really in his player history...He goes like 95% Luigi, 2.5% Fox, others.

Most people upgrade not downgrade characters.

Eh, we all like to mess around sometimes.

I went all Zelda once at my weekly for fun.

It was indeed "fun".

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Question is: WHY did Elegant go all Ganondorf? Not like he is better than Luigi, and I don't think Ganondorf is really in his player history...He goes like 95% Luigi, 2.5% Fox, others.

Most people upgrade not downgrade characters.

In more recent tournaments, it is not untypical for Elegant to use other characters. In a previous one (believe it was WNF 1.2), he used Ness and Charizard.

Not sure if this is considered sandbagging or not, though.

 

[Laken64]

9th:

DNG | Kameme ,

Also on a side note about Frostbite it seems to me that Kameme has been using more and more nowadays, do you guys think we'll be seeing his sheik on a more consistent basis since the has been thoroughly understood?

 

[Das Koopa]

His Sheik is on its way to being a pretty high level one. It didn't work vs. tsu or Ally but Sheik's kit is probably more suited to beating either of those characters than Mega Man is. I'm curious as to where Kameme's MM will go in the future: It's a good anti-Diddy pick, it works well against people who don't have match-up knowledge (See: MKLeo) but he's clearly done a lot worse in and out of Japan since EVO.

Match-up knowledge is a really big thing, though. It's easy to list a large number of sets that were at least partially determined by a player being completely unprepared for a specialist mid-tier/upper tier player. Speaking of Kameme: He had no idea how stupid Pikachu is on Lylat and agreed to fight ESAM there game 1 and predictably got annihilated. But he wouldn't have any particular reason to know this because even Japan lacks many, of any, real high level Pikachus.

 

[blackghost]

Das Koopa do you have the link to that set?

 

[Lord Dio]

2nd: Ranai

what

Elegant apparently went

WHAT
What in the world am I seeing?
I guess Frostbite left people in th emood for mixing things up.

 

[Das Koopa]

Das Koopa do you have the link to that set?

Kameme remarked later that he didn't know about Pikachu's platform cancelling stuff. Presumably ESAM striked to where it was available, Kameme didn't ban it, and they ended up on it. AFAIK MM has a bad match-up against Pika anyway so nothing really went Kameme's way here.

 

[TDK]

what

WHAT
What in the world am I seeing?
I guess Frostbite left people in th emood for mixing things up.

Komo and Ranai went Marth vs Lucina in Winners Finals. Ranai got 2-0'ed (And yes, in large part because of some Tipper Kills), switched to Shulk, and was promptly sent to losers. He did pull out Lucina in Grands to take some games off of Komo's Cloud, however.

 

[Gunla]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Wintermelon43]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Oh god........

 

[FullMoon]

I was about to say that today is still the 28th and then I remembered we're in February.

 

[Lord Dio]

Komo and Ranai went Marth vs Lucina in Winners Finals. Ranai got 2-0'ed (And yes, in large part because of some Tipper Kills), switched to Shulk, and was promptly sent to losers. He did pull out Lucina in Grands to take some games off of Komo's Cloud, however.

.......
is this the real life
Is this just fantasy
Caught in a landsldie
No escape from reality

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here....we.....go!

 

[TDK]

Ah, that new tier list smell.

I can practically taste the salt already.

 

[Luco]

I mean I dunno about *you* guys but where I am it's March 1st sooooooo....

Also figures that within a couple days ZeRo would chuck up a Tsu / Lucario video lul.

 

[L9999]

Komo and Ranai went Marth vs Lucina in Winners Finals. Ranai got 2-0'ed (And yes, in large part because of some Tipper Kills).

Can't disagree on that, getting dumped on by the same moveset at the safest range feels insulting. I rather play Ness against Marth than playing Lucina.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

The commentators for MSM that night said Elegant agreed to a ganon ditto with another player who used it as a bracket match instead of friendlies. Take that as you will or it may have been a joke.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Can't disagree on that, getting dumped on by the same moveset at the safest range feels insulting. I rather play Ness against Marth than playing Lucina.

Can't say that's a better match up by any means but player preference is a thing of course.

Ness:Marth really is not an amazing match up. Marth really just kicks the crap out of Ness.
And I love it, it's so much fun.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So.

Who's ready to rock the boat?

Charizard for mid tier.

For real though I expect this to be a pretty radical change. Last tier list seems like ages ago.

So much has happened since then.

 

[ARGHETH]

inb4 Lucario's #1

 

[Gunla]

inb4 Lucario's #1

Voting concluded before Frostbite began.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Is there an ETA within the day?

I may or may not be putting a low tier event tournament page for my scene today depending on if the list is up before my computer's out of reach for the week.

Also curious if Robin will be ranked 31st for the third tier list in a row.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's the 1st now where I am.

Gimme!

(but yes, when can we expect to see it today?)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

My predictions:
Charizard not in bottom 5
Marth top 10/15
Lucina not low/mid tier
Lucas at least in the same tier as Ness
Bowser high tier
Falco bottom 5
Ryu drops out of top 10
Bayonetta is top 4
Corrin stops being over rated af and put in mid tier where (s)he belongs

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Actually, the Bayo MU has been heading in the other direction for a long time. Having to face Zack isn't good bracket luck. It's still only one set, but Some winning is pretty big.

Some may not have run into Sheik or Sonic, but he did have to get through two of the best players of two top tiers. And bear in mind Some has no issue with Sonic. So "relatively kind" really just means "avoided top level Sheik".

So yes, it was lucky for him to avoid that, but he hardly had a free ride to 9th and "non-trivial" amount of luck is debateable when we're really talking about avoiding one character.

Adding to this I don't think having to face Zero in pools can ever be considered bracket luck.

OK so now guys are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

A bracket run of Falcon -> Bayonetta -> Mewtwo is a relatively favorable one for Greninja. Period. Would you have preferred Some to run into Komorikiri's Cloud/Sonic instead of Captain Zack [both placed 17th] or MKLeo instead of Wadi [both placed 13th] ... ? He could've met Ranai's fate and run into Ally super-early and placed 33rd. Heck, he could've run into Ranai early. There's at least 4 different theoretical constellations Some dodged in which he easily could've placed lower than 9th, possibly as low as 33rd.

And had that happened -Some going out early to Zero and Ally, placing 33rd- you guys would've been the first to rightfully point out that Some had some really bad bracket luck even though Diddy Kong and Mario both are not considered to be bad matchups for Greninja. So don't tell me that Fatality / Falcon -> Zack / Bayonetta -> Wadi / Mewtwo wasn't among the better brackets Some / Greninja could've gotten. In addition to avoiding some of the absolute top players he also didn't run into any of his fellow japanese players who have considerably more matchup experiene against Greninja - until he ran into Shuton, whom he got taken out by quite solidly with no real chance of winning the set at any point. That's certainly a solid deal of bracket luck, whether you like it or not.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Ok then, last minute predictions:

in top 3, likely 1st (I personally don't believe she's 1st, but I respect the fact that lots of people do).
in the upper half of the list. Close to high tier, if not in high tier.
will not be 8th from bottom, if even bottom 10.
will not gonna be top 3 anymore.
will stop being overrated, will be mid tier (likely close to if not at the top) until further notice. Can 100% be high tier but until he proves himself more worthy I see mid tier more likely.
potentially move up a little, similar to Bowser but I think to a lesser extent, if mainly due to how relevant the grapplers have become in recent times.
for bottom tier, if even just near the top of it. What notable does this character have to his name these days in terms of rep and results?
still last - rip.
in a similar case to Bowser - likely one of the best mid tiers if not high tier.
will be either the best high tiered character, but I see most likely somewhere in top tier.
on the other hand I feel will sadly still get the shaft based on some of the opinions I've seen on people who I know have voted on the list. If she rises into high tier it will still be incorrect IMO (should be beside Marth), but I'll be thankful for small mercies; it's better than her current placement.
might drop slightly, now that most of the hype surrounding him has died down a little. Still likely in high tier.
might also drop similar to Mega Man. Wouldn't be surprised to see him somewhere close to the top of mid though, a bit closer to , if even I think it's wrong.
is going to rise a little, but less than he arguably should seeing as Frostbite is omitted.
will also rise a little; she deserves it. She will likely rise up past characters that deserve to drop below her, such as /, and (a little less likely) potentially .
will probably drop into the lower portions of high tier due to less rep and results nowadays; pull your finger out ESAM!
might rise into the higher echelons of mid, rather than being in the lower side.
's gonna drop down a bit; I agree she doesn't deserve top 4 anymore, but I feel she's going to drop more than she deserves because of the rise of newer character like Marth taking the spotlight. Should definitely still be in top tier somewhere, but I have my worries...
will likely rise to be one of the best low tiers, if not somewhere low mid; opinion on him seems to have changed a fair bit.
should also drop into the high tier, but we'll see; people still cling onto that "potential", whether it really is right or not. Ideally should be in the upper half of high tier IMO.
might drop to lower high tier due to the rise of others and still being relatively inactive compared to some characters around him.
I feel is going to be in the same boat as Rosalina; she's going to get the short end of the stick when she really shouldn't. Like Rosalina, should 100% still be top tier, but again...

Then misc. characters like , and who I expect to see minor rises. They at least deserve it IMO out of the lower tiered characters. Characters like may vary based on where the voters are from; there are some good Shulk's in certain areas.

And considering Frostbite is not included in the voting, I sadly expect to see drop, when he really shouldn't be and should be rising. It's sad to think some of the tier list will already be invalid from day 1.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

for bottom tier, if even just near the top of it. What notable does this character have to his name these days in terms of rep and results?

AC's 7th finish at Midwest Mayhem Saga (even though he also used MK, he notably 2-0'd 6WX using only Falco). Then again, it's not a lot.

 

[Bowserboy3]

AC's 7th finish at Midwest Mayhem Saga (even though he also used MK, he notably 2-0'd 6WX using only Falco). Then again, it's not a lot.

Forgot about that actually.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

will not gonna be top 3 anymore

I actually feel very confident that he will be. I'm personally expecting a Diddy / Cloud / Bayonetta top 3 in no specific order.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I actually feel very confident that he will be. I'm personally expecting a Diddy / Cloud / Bayonetta top 3 in no specific order.

Interesting.

I'd personally go Diddy / Sheik / Bayonetta, but I do feel Cloud could be one of the next characters.

It becomes a bit of a sh*tstorm past the top 3 IMO; lots of characters could fight for any order after that, such as Cloud, Mario, Sonic and ZSS.

 

[Deleted member]

I actually feel very confident that he will be. I'm personally expecting a Diddy / Cloud / Bayonetta top 3 in no specific order.

Cloud failed to prove his worth as a character at super majors a few times now but all the tier lists I've seen recently, including those that will be used to add up the 'official' tier list, have Cloud in top 3 or close to it and ZSS considerably lower - often outside of top 10 altogether.

Bayonetta and especially Cloud, who are often complained about, do not frequently live up to their reputation on the biggest stage. Nairo alone has probably already as many top tier wins this year as all the big name Cloud players added together do - and that's not even including Marss [and the few wins Choco or other ZSS players may have gotten] whose results this year I don't actually know about. ZSS to all intents and purposes shoud be considered better than Cloud until proven otherwise because top level results lead to no other conclusion. In the realm of the major international tournaments, ZSS is competing with Sheik and Bayonetta for a spot between 2nd and 4th. If somebody wants to argue that she shouldn't be up there then the burden of proof is on them but I promise you that you will not find five characters in this game that are better than ZSS.

Erm, okay?

 

[Yikarur]

Double Standard Gheb is strong in this one.

 

[Vyrnx]

It has nothing to do with his personal opinion, just the opinion of the top player population, which rates Cloud very highly. That can be the case and Cloud could be top 3 in the new tier list (extremely likely) and someone could still think Cloud is 7-12 or whatever.

 

[Das Koopa]

sorry this took so long, but here's the retrospective of tournies for the week:

Spoiler: Frostbite 2017 (February 25th-26th) (Midwest) (342 Entrants) (Category 4)

1st:

TSM | ZeRo ,
2nd:

tsu ,
3rd:

NRG | Nairo
4th:

RNG | Dabuz ,
5th:

Shuton
5th:

MVG | Salem
7th:

C9 | Ally
7th:

AS | Zinoto
9th:

Some (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
9th:

DNG | Kameme ,
9th:

RvL | Mr. E
9th:

CLG | VoiD
13th:

ECHO FOX MVG | MKLeo ,
13th:

Kirihara
13th:

InC | WaDi (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
13th:

Ahn | Deathorse (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th:

2GG | komorikiri ,
17th:

LG | Abadango ,
17th:

KEN
17th:

DMG | Captain Zack
17th:

Ned
17th:

Pulse | Ryuga
17th:

InC | Seagull Joe (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th:

smasher1001 , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th:

CLG | NAKAT ,
25th:

FS | Fatality
25th:

PG | MVD
25th:

PG | Rich Brown
25th:

Myran (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th:

DarkAura (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th:

Blacktwins , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th:

Black Yoshi (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)

Spoiler: Sumabato 16 (February 25th) (Kansai) (165 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: 9B
2nd: Oisiitofu
3rd: Taiheita
4th: Shogun
5th: Earth ,
5th: Kuro ,
7th: Edge
7th: HIKARU
9th: Compact
9th: Ikep
9th: Es ,
9th: Lickey
13th: Nietono ,
13th: Atelier
13th: Chansyu
13th: Corrin

Spoiler: Tampa Never Sleeps 7 (February 25th-26th) (Florida) (193 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Manny
2nd: Dyr
3rd: Wormynugget
4th: Child
5th: DJ Jack
5th: Cashmere
7th: 8BitMan ,
7th: Saj
9th: 3Fresh Lade
9th: Mew2King
9th: Rideae
9th: RoguePenguin
13th: Ryo
13th: KidG
13th: True Blue
13th: Headshot

Spoiler: Smashfield Weeklies #78 (February 23rd) (Midwest) (107 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: tsu
2nd: Shuton
3rd: Some
4th: KEN
5th: Kameme ,
5th: komorikiri ,
7th: Abadango ,
7th: Nero
9th: Smasher1001 ,
9th: Advo ,
9th: T
9th: SlamSHADY
13th: taranito
13th: Zinoto
13th: Nom
13th: Nebula

Spoiler: Gamer’s Gauntlet Pre-Frostbite (February 21st) (Midwest) (68 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Kirihara
2nd: Kameme ,
3rd: Ryuga
4th: Shuton

Spoiler: The Freezing Point (February 24th) (Midwest) (76 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MKLeo ,
2nd: DarkShad
3rd: Deathorse
4th: Coloinies

Spoiler: Shulla-Bra IX (February 26th) (Kyushu) (96 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Kome
2nd: Yamanyon ,
3rd: HIDE ,
4th: Suinoko
5th: gucci
5th: Masshu
7th: Mattun
7th: Sa

Spoiler: Tijuana at War (February 26th) (Mexico) (84 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Ito
2nd: Hyuga
3rd: Falln
4th: Ac ,
5th: IC
5th: Wonf ,
7th: BTLC | Laloba
7th: ThatOneRider

Spoiler: Couchwarriors February Ranking Battle (February 25th) (Australia) (83 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Ghost
2nd: Jdizzle
3rd: Snugs
4th: Eternal
5th: Ignis
5th: Boozer
7th: Swithi
7th: Saber

Spoiler: Xenosaga VII (Febuary 25th) (Tristate) (84 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Angel Cortes
2nd: Vinnie
3rd: John Numbers ,
4th: Dill ,
5th: Kogarasuma
5th: Raptor
7th: Wraith
7th: UtopianRay

Spoiler: Showdown 8 (February 25th-26th) (Chile) (105 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: FirehaoJG
2nd: Keen
3rd: MK~Iori ,
4th: Joaji
5th: Harlonga
5th: Benja
7th: Kazuki
7th: Rollo

Spoiler: Mega Smash Mondays 87 (February 27th) (Southern California) (102 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: komorikiri ,
2nd: Ranai ,
3rd: Tyrant ,
4th: Nicko
5th: Aarvark
5th: Scizor
7th: S2H
7th: Razo

Spoiler: AGON One Day (February 25th) (Germany) (69 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Purple~H
2nd: Light
3rd: LoNg0uw ,
4th: Yikarur

Spoiler: Smash at York 15 (February 25th) (Tristate) (89 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Yoh
2nd: FALGOD
3rd: Kevin Wong
4th: Ray Kalm ,

Spoiler: DAT BlastZone 19 (February 25th) (New England) (72 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Afro Smash
2nd: Aperture
3rd: IxisNaugus
4th: J. Miller

Spoiler: Smash n’ Chill 7 (February 28th) (Midwest) (30 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MKLeo ,
2nd: Abadango ,
3rd: Nom
4th: Salem

Spoiler: Galaxy Geek Well Smashed 4 (February 25th) (France) (47 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Elexiao ,
2nd: Greil ,
3rd: Neath
4th: Fire

Spoiler: GGWP 0.9 (February 25th) (Netherlands) (77 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Mr. R
2nd: S1
3rd: quiK
4th: Badr .

Bonus, for OrionRank exclusively;

Spoiler: Season 1 Finale (NorCal) (16 Entrants)

1st: Legit
2nd: KOSSismoss ,
3rd: Rice ,
4th: Trevonte
5th: FuTure
5th: Shaky
7th: Xzax
7th: Sean
9th: Rude
9th: 3xA
9th: Mudomo
9th: ZooM
13th: Vermillion
13th: PairODucks
13th: Inferno Brawler
13th: Zex ]

 

[|RK|]

Tbh, as I said pre-Frostbite... this isn't great timing. I haven't even seen the tier list yet and I know it's probably outdated. It's going to end up being more or less ignored, again. And we'll continue making our own top 10 and such. Main difference is we'll be in a new thread.

 

[Krysco]

Predicting:
Big rise for Top 4 easily
guessing will end up in the upper part of mid tier rather than the lower end. High tier seems a bit of a stretch to me but it could be possible
out of bottom tier. Probably still low tier though
not second best. Still likely in top 4 though
honestly surprised that people think this character deserves to be in mid tier. Still seems like a high tier to me, if only a lower end one
Quite a ways to go but I often saw people saying that and are worthy of mid tier. At the very least, they probably deserve to be closer to mid tier than and
probably bottom tier sadly
Actually wondering if and will eventually find themselves in low tier. Maybe not in this next tier list but down the road perhaps
If drops at all, he'll be in mid tier since he's currently the lowest high tier. Unless of course all that happens is characters go past him
going up. Still mid tier though
in top tier and in...gonna guess lower high tier
closer to high tier
probably dropping to lower end of high tier
would love to see him out of bottom 10. Not expecting him to be out of low tier this time around but hoping over time he will get to lower mid tier
gets the **** out of top tier
to upper end of low tier

 

[DanGR]

Expecting a character to have a placement on the SBR's list is different from believing it yourself.

Whoops. Didn't see Vyrnx' post. What he said.

 

[bc1910]

OK so now guys are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

A bracket run of Falcon -> Bayonetta -> Mewtwo is a relatively favorable one for Greninja. Period. Would you have preferred Some to run into Komorikiri's Cloud/Sonic instead of Captain Zack [both placed 17th] or MKLeo instead of Wadi [both placed 13th] ... ? He could've met Ranai's fate and run into Ally super-early and placed 33rd. Heck, he could've run into Ranai early. There's at least 4 different theoretical constellations Some dodged in which he easily could've placed lower than 9th, possibly as low as 33rd.

And had that happened -Some going out early to Zero and Ally, placing 33rd- you guys would've been the first to rightfully point out that Some had some really bad bracket luck even though Diddy Kong and Mario both are not considered to be bad matchups for Greninja. So don't tell me that Fatality / Falcon -> Zack / Bayonetta -> Wadi / Mewtwo wasn't among the better brackets Some / Greninja could've gotten. In addition to avoiding some of the absolute top players he also didn't run into any of his fellow japanese players who have considerably more matchup experiene against Greninja - until he ran into Shuton, whom he got taken out by quite solidly with no real chance of winning the set at any point. That's certainly a solid deal of bracket luck, whether you like it or not.

Arguing for the sake of arguing, or just having a different opinion? Great start.

To tell you the truth - yes, I would have preferred Some to run into Komorikiri than Zack. He clearly has no issue with the Sonic MU and I would put the Cloud and Bayonetta MUs on the same level. Whether Komo has more Greninja experience than Zack I couldn't say, but I wouldn't give the edge to Cloud or Bayo in particular; iStudying frequently loses to both. Ranai might be an amazing player, but he also plays a character which Greninja does better against than Bayo.

Running into Ally would hardly have been bad bracket luck. Ally has lost convincingly to iStudying in the past, Mario is a good MU for Greninja (in his favour IMO) and again would have been preferable to at least Zack. Probably WaDi too. Not to mention, had he beaten Ally I expect you would have played the same tune and said that Mario is a very beatable top tier for Greninja - which is true.

No-one is suggesting that bracket luck isn't a real thing, but "relatively favourable" is not the same as getting to 9th with a significant amount of bracket luck. The best luck he had was facing Fatality early; many of the other matchups you mentioned could easily have led to the same result as a Bayo/Mewtwo combo. Downplay it all you want, but this is a solid result for Greninja which could have been achieved via multiple paths - whether you like it or not.

 

[FullMoon]

I don't think anyone is saying this isn't a good result for Greninja, let's not get overboard here.

For the record Diddy is considered a bad MU for Greninja and I'm pretty sure most of us would agree on it, so Some having to face Zero in pools was almost an instant kick to losers unless he managed to pull one crazy upset which isn't impossible I guess. Mario is not a hard MU so I can see Some beating Ally, especially considering iStudying managed to pull it off before.

A degree of luck and bad luck with the bracket is to be expected, Some's losers bracket up to Shuton, who he seems to really struggle against, had him face two even-to-favorable MUs (Falcon and Mewtwo) and a bad MU (Bayonetta) and prior to that he had to face Zero in pools, to me personally that kinda even things out.

Either way, this is a bit of a pointless discussion to have.