Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm I think zard will be on the middle of low tier, though I do believe he should be at bottom of mid-tier simply due to his results. Either way he's not bottom ten. Probably 39th but I think he could be a touch higher, between 35-38. Though that might be seriously generous...

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Am I alone in that I would not say Bayo in really in the top 3-4? I mean she could possibly be in theory and yea a good number of pro players do consider her the best or top 3. Bayo's results and consistency has not really been top 3 level. Still I would place her around #5-7 in the list at least myself.

Yea ZeRo said she is the best in the game. But he also said the same about Ryu and Rosalina in the past and look how that turned out.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Given that bayo hasn't been getting consistent results I'd actually agree with you there but then the question becomes who takes her place...?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Erm, okay?

Double Standard Gheb is strong in this one.

Leave the trolling to people who are good at it please. You're not even funny.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Link's pseudo rise being overrated af is starting to annoy me.
Do you realize that this character hasn't done much if you look closer, especially on a global scale?

I mean, look at the best players of this character:
- Cat & Izaw can't get consistent results in EUROPE. Enough said
- Scizor does decent at MSM and some Socal locals, and that's it. On a tournament of bigger scale, i've yet to see Scizor break Top 32, which is a significant spot that every Mid Tier character should have reached once.
- EspeonCH's pretty good but stuck in British Columbia as of now. Got good wins recently, on Captain L.
- T is inconsistent and has more mixed to bad results than good, even though recent events say otherwise, but not by much, T is still very much able to drown to no names or mediocre players ( Seagull )

I don't see it honestly. Ass matchups against every Top tier but Mewtwo ( & Villager ) , results that don't live up to the expectations of their player ( who usually tend to massively overrate their character ) , and overall, the recipe for a character that doesn't deserve to be ranked anywhere close to DH or G&W Imo.

 

[HoSmash4]

Predictions:
1. Sheik Bayo Diddy cloud top 4 in whatever order
2. Rosalina/ZSS drop off
3. Heavy Marth rise
4. Olimar/Lucario low which will lead to complaints by people not aware of when voting finished

Overall there hasn't been too many shifts in the mets game from v2 to v3 and all the established threats and cannon fodder have been realised.

Mid tier could be anything, ness probably dropped hard to be honest because of lack of top ness activity.
You know it kinda rude to call a player who cosnistently gets around top 64 of a supermajor 'mediocre'. It irks me to see players like Nakat or Seagull treated like that.

 

[money1246]

@Emblem Lord During Frostbite, Tsu used Ryu (another Ryu beating Shiek...). Trela also said a couple months ago that he has begun to pick up Lucario again instead of using Mewtwo. What is it that makes players want to use the Ryu Lucario combo? What does that say about the player's personality and playstyle?

 

[Fenny]

Am I alone in that I would not say Bayo in really in the top 3-4? I mean she could possibly be in theory and yea a good number of pro players do consider her the best or top 3. Bayo's results and consistency has not really been top 3 level. Still I would place her around #5-7 in the list at least myself.

Yea ZeRo said she is the best in the game. But he also said the same about Ryu and Rosalina in the past and look how that turned out.

In Brawl, the quality of Snake's results were second only to Meta Knight, but he's rank 6. Results don't paint the whole picture.

In the case of Bayo, her drawbacks are far and between compared to her positives. Most negative bracket placements for her are down to the players and bracket luck for the most part.

 

[L9999]

Link's pseudo rise being overrated af is starting to annoy me.
Do you realize that this character hasn't done much if you look closer, especially on a global scale?

I mean, look at the best players of this character:
- Cat & Izaw can't get consistent results in EUROPE. Enough said
- Scizor does decent at MSM and some Socal locals, and that's it. On a tournament of bigger scale, i've yet to see Scizor break Top 32, which is a significant spot that every Mid Tier character should have reached once.
- EspeonCH's pretty good but stuck in British Columbia as of now. Got good wins recently, on Captain L.
- T is inconsistent and has more mixed to bad results than good, even though recent events say otherwise, but not by much, T is still very much able to drown to no names or mediocre players ( Seagull )

I don't see it honestly. *** matchups against every Top tier but Mewtwo ( & Villager ) , results that don't live up to the expectations of their player ( who usually tend to massively overrate their character ) , and overall, the recipe for a character that doesn't deserve to be ranked anywhere close to DH or G&W Imo.

Link-Sanic is a bad MU, Seagull obviously was going to win, the dude has a lot more to his name than people give him credit for. On ranking, I can believe you, he always had results in Japan, a clearly established playerbase (You3, Brood and Raito, with Tamushika joining recently) and for those naysaying Japan results the DHD trio did alright in America. But ? This character has gone down the drain. Regi also loses to "no names", relies on secondaries to get past bad MUs because GnW has a lot of bad MUs, (compared to T who solo mains Link) and hasn't placed very hot recently. KOSSissmoss has some decent results but not fantastic. I also think rage dumps on GnW hard.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Link-Sanic is a bad MU, Seagull obviously was going to win, the dude has a lot more to his name than people give him credit for. On ranking, I can believe you, he always had results in Japan, a clearly established playerbase (You3, Brood and Raito, with Tamushika joining recently) and for those naysaying Japan results the DHD trio did alright in America. But ? This character has gone down the drain. Regi also loses to "no names", relies on secondaries to get past bad MUs because GnW has a lot of bad MUs, (compared to T who solo mains Link) and hasn't placed very hot recently. KOSSissmoss has some decent results but not fantastic. I also think rage dumps on GnW hard.

Way to spread wrong information, my dear.
Regi has been doing poorly lately, it is true. To the point where KOSSissmoss is our best player as of now i'd say. Regi has a Corrin for the Sonic matchup, as well as a possible counterpick for any other matchup that he could lose as G&W or, rather, when he loses a game as Game&Watch. This just demonstrates that Sonic's a huge issue for the character, but outside of that, help can be appreciated but isn't mandatory. Thus, G&W actually has a much stronger matchup spread than a fair amount of characters above him, with niche matchups against characters like Mario, Lucario, Pikachu & Villager. Everything else ranges from pretty close to losing but doable ( Diddy & RosaLuma would maybe fit right there ).
The thing about G&W is that you've got to look outside of a pretty weak playerbase to see that this character just has a lot going for him, even though his glass cannon nature makes everything harder. One of the best advantage states in the game, with guarranted combos that can deal up to 50% and start off of grab & UpSmash ( at low% ) which happens to be another one of G&W's stronger tools & a very strong anti air, as well as strong offstage presence thanks to Bair's ability to frame trap airdodges & has long range, our ability to bait low recovery edgeguard & use our UpB to snipe a high one is also quite something. A respectable neutral that can be rather commital but certainly doesn't lack in tools to combat the opponent, with pretty good range all around. A fairly good disadvantage, G&W isnt the most combo food character out there, landing is alright thanks to a great air speed, recovering is obviously good. All around, i just see G&W as a much stronger character that will surely get its peak one time, like Regi's accomplishments early on the metagame ( 17th at EVO 2016 which isn't that old of an event, i can say with that in mind that despite inconsistensies, Game&Watch's peak as of now has been stronger than Link's )

You may think Link may peak at a major once, much like i do with G&W as of now, thus thinking he's better. But with these arguments in mind, i consider G&W to be a better character than Link.

 

[my_T]

People still overrating Bowser and underrating Corrin I see

 

[Aaron1997]

Top 3 for sure
Still very good but will fall
Top 5 most likely
I'm not sure where she's going since there's mixed feelings about her. Maybe around Mid Top tier
With all the craziness of Dabuz possibly dropping her. She might drop some
Moving to high tier but I think he's overrated
Moving up boyz
Probably not moving up to much since everyone probably voted before Frostbite
Going down
Also going down. He's a little overrated. Kameme is a god
Going up
^
^
^
So sad to see mah boy drop this far. Most likely bottom of low tier.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Its kinda funny that it was after Dabuz said he was considering dropping her that he ended up performing quite a lot better using mostly Rosa a Major than he has been in a while. It think it would be in his best interest not to drop her completely since he shown he can still do very well with her looking at his performance at Frostbite

Then again voting was done before Frostbite so maybe she will drop a bit.

 

[Gunla]

Is there an ETA within the day?

I may or may not be putting a low tier event tournament page for my scene today depending on if the list is up before my computer's out of reach for the week.

Also curious if Robin will be ranked 31st for the third tier list in a row.

Within the next few hours, with a new thread coming to fruition later this evening (US times).

It's sad to think some of the tier list will already be invalid from day 1.

It's important to note that the Tier List also primarily has functioned as a snapshot of the game's meta from a period to another period, in addition to a reflection of the current meta. Do recall the circumstances that v1.0 and v2.0 were released; v1.0 was released just after Bayonetta and Corrin released, and v2.0 was after Super Smash Con (and voting was before it ended). It's worth noting that Super Smash Con was one of the major events that was looked at for V3, and I can say with utmost certainty that V4 will also take Frostbite into account.

The high frequency of Smash 4 events can make it rather difficult to schedule out content releases, and things will often come up without any warning or advance notification, as well. While Frostbite was something that we were aware of, we ultimately decided to have Genesis 4 be the last major that was looked at for V3 in late 2016.

 

[jet56]

Leave the trolling to people who are good at it please. You're not even funny.

Or maybe he was pointing out the fact you were contradicting yourself.

Mac is going to be close to bottom for sure. While this new stagelist is by far very generous and favorable for mac, people in general still have a very strong idea that his crippling weaknesses hold him way back despite some of his strengths (which they do). His results haven't been there at all, and you pretty much never see a mac get far at a major or even get on stream except for the occasional local or pools play. While a mac can indeed take a suprise win here and there, his design will always keep him as an inconsistent mid tier at best (which is where I see him)

 

[BSP]

So sad to see mah boy drop this far. Most likely bottom of low tier.

Maybe. At the end of the day though, what people think he can/can't do doesn't matter. It's what he actually can do. At King of the Springs, I pulled him out in some friendlies vs some Luigi players and showed them why the trampoline is a big deal.

The Pac players still need to work on fundamentals. Once they do, he'll probably end up around mid tier.

 

[PK Gaming]

So with the next tier list on the horizon, anyone want to reflect on the past 6 months? So much has changed since the release of v2.0, and unfortunately I kind of fell out of Smash towards the tail end of 2016.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Or maybe he was pointing out the fact you were contradicting yourself.

Statement 1: I think Cloud's results don't accurately represent how good a character he is because he has a massive, skilled playerbase that inflates them. It's easily possibly that ZSS is a superior character to him.

Statement 2: I think Cloud is going to be in the top 3 of the next tier list.


Seriously people, it's not that hard to get lol

 

[ARGHETH]

Statement 1: I think Cloud's results don't accurately represent how good a character he is because he has a massive, skilled playerbase that inflates them. It's easily possibly that ZSS is a superior character to him.

Statement 2: I think Cloud is going to be in the top 3 of the next tier list.


Seriously people, it's not that hard to get lol

It's basically
1: I think Cloud is overrated [because of his results]
2: Cloud will be overrated [by the backroom]
Oversimplified, of course.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Maybe but the way people read it is..
1. Cloud won't be in top three.
2. Cloud will be in top three
Overly simplifying myself there could be other interpretations.

 

[Zelder]

Oh my God, guys. There's only one way through this complete inability to understand Gheb's insanely simple point...

Who's better at dodging Pikachu's upthrow Thunder, Marth or Lucina? Please show your work in the form of a matchup chart.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

No more Marcina debate we already went through that whole can of worms five pages back! Marcina comparisons are off the table unless it's specifically about their placement on the tier charts! Which if I had to guess would put Marth at high/top tier and Lucina around high middle or lower high tier.

 

[Luigi player]

... the new tierlist (-thread) can't come soon enough. People don't know what to talk about anymore.

To stay a bit on topic:

When looking at tierlist stuff, I think the highest possible place for Luigi would be 13th atm. Concon recently said he thinks Luigi is top 12 in his stream.
He'll probably rise in the upcoming tierlist since Elegant did amazing work with him lately, but likely not too much. He's currently place 29, so I'd guess he'll be around 25th.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Maybe but the way people read it is..
1. Cloud won't be in top three.

"People" needs to learn reading then.

 

[jet56]

Statement 1: I think Cloud's results don't accurately represent how good a character he is because he has a massive, skilled playerbase that inflates them. It's easily possibly that ZSS is a superior character to him.

Statement 2: I think Cloud is going to be in the top 3 of the next tier list.


Seriously people, it's not that hard to get lol

And it also doesn't help when you are passive aggressive in your posts to understand it any better. I'm not going to pretend it might have been misinterpreted, but maybe if you had lead with this post in response, people wouldn't have been so confused. Also, please no marcina talk, at least until after the tier list comes out.

 

[Zelder]

No more Marcina debate we already went through that whole can of worms five pages back! Marcina comparisons are off the table unless it's specifically about their placement on the tier charts! Which if I had to guess would put Marth at high/top tier and Lucina around high middle or lower high tier.

Also, please no marcina talk, at least until after the tier list comes out.

Jokes, what are they?





We just don't know.


Anyways, I predict that Rosalina will be far too low on the incoming tier list.

 

[L9999]

Oh my God, guys. There's only one way through this complete inability to understand Gheb's insanely simple point...

Who's better at dodging Pikachu's upthrow Thunder, Marth or Lucina? Please show your work in the form of a matchup chart.

Marth because tipper.


(If Luigi didn't rise in 3.0 I will be surprised.)

 

[Nemesis561]

No more Marcina debate we already went through that whole can of worms five pages back! Marcina comparisons are off the table unless it's specifically about their placement on the tier charts! Which if I had to guess would put Marth at high/top tier and Lucina around high middle or lower high tier.

How did you not see the sarcasm in his comment? Lord have mercy

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Sarcasm doesn't always translate well into text and it wasn't so much sarcasm as joking around. Tbf I didn't think it was sarcasm until after I posted and then I started wondering but that's off topic can we stay on topic please?
When's that new tier list going to get here? I know it's today but I don't know when and it's a royal pain waiting.

edit: They just put up the tier list topic. I didn't see who was where but it's starting now.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

>Sees V3 topic is up

>No list, just link to previous tiers

;_;

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I think that topic is a place marker. Once the tier list is announced it'll be put there. Just something to say 'yes we know you want the new tier list. WE'RE WORKING ON IT GIVE US TIME!'

Paraphrased of course.

 

[Mario766]

Advocating for Low Tier events at big events and Ike in low tier so we can go back to old Brawl days.


Please and thank you.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

This thread was fun while it lasted

 

[Rizen]

Link's pseudo rise being overrated af is starting to annoy me.
Do you realize that this character hasn't done much if you look closer, especially on a global scale?

I mean, look at the best players of this character:
- Cat & Izaw can't get consistent results in EUROPE. Enough said
- Scizor does decent at MSM and some Socal locals, and that's it. On a tournament of bigger scale, i've yet to see Scizor break Top 32, which is a significant spot that every Mid Tier character should have reached once.
- EspeonCH's pretty good but stuck in British Columbia as of now. Got good wins recently, on Captain L.
- T is inconsistent and has more mixed to bad results than good, even though recent events say otherwise, but not by much, T is still very much able to drown to no names or mediocre players ( Seagull )

I don't see it honestly. *** matchups against every Top tier but Mewtwo ( & Villager ) , results that don't live up to the expectations of their player ( who usually tend to massively overrate their character ) , and overall, the recipe for a character that doesn't deserve to be ranked anywhere close to DH or G&W Imo.

Cat does have consistent results in Europe like 13th of 320 at Syndicate, Avalon U-II 5/128 - Netherlands, Avalon U-III 7/128 - Netherlands, Avalon-U-IV 9/128 - Netherlands, 17th at Mega Smash Mondays 81 (185 entrants | SoCal), and several smaller events.
Unknown gets results like 13th out of 195 at Paradigm Shift, 5th out of 156 at S@X beating C3P0,
T has several significant wins in Japan like 2 of 224 at Umebura 24, 5/216 at Sumbato, others.
LordXavior gets results like 13th of 189.
Scizor of course gets good results in SoCal like 7th at Mega Smash Mondays 81 (185 entrants | SoCal), 4th of 113, 33rd out of 499 and others.
DrigoToes does work in Chile, which is a smaller scale.

Seagull took a set off ZeRo, he's not mediocre. Link has even MUs vs Mew2, Villager, +1 or even vs Luigi and ZSS and only loses hard as in -2 to Sheik and maybe Fox. Most of his MUs are no worse than -1.

I have to go but you get the idea.
https://smashboards.com/threads/link-tournament-results-thread-25th-october.404196/

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Any thoughts on how the list is going to look? I think middle tier is going to get bloated because so many characters fit there.

 

[ARGHETH]

This thread was fun while it lasted

I mean, we're just going to move to the new thread and go back to normal after complaining about the tier list for a week or two.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

True, i'm not posting there not because I can't stay on topic but because most of my comments have little if no substance....I don't even know what that means....

 

[Zelder]

Sarcasm doesn't always translate well into text and it wasn't so much sarcasm as joking around. Tbf I didn't think it was sarcasm until after I posted and then I started wondering but that's off topic can we stay on topic please?
When's that new tier list going to get here? I know it's today but I don't know when and it's a royal pain waiting.

edit: They just put up the tier list topic. I didn't see who was where but it's starting now.

I think that topic is a place marker. Once the tier list is announced it'll be put there. Just something to say 'yes we know you want the new tier list. WE'RE WORKING ON IT GIVE US TIME!'

Paraphrased of course.

Any thoughts on how the list is going to look? I think middle tier is going to get bloated because so many characters fit there.

True, i'm not posting there not because I can't stay on topic but because most of my comments have little if no substance....I don't even know what that means....

Holy hell, stop dude.


Anyways, in memorian:

I met a poster from an antique thread
Who said: Two vast and trunkless posts of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered html link lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its moderator well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is the CCI Tier List 2.0, king of kings:
Look on my thread, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away

 

[Nemesis561]

Any thoughts on how the list is going to look? I think middle tier is going to get bloated because so many characters fit there.

I mean, for the last few pages everyone has been giving their thoughts and predictions on where characters will be on the new tier list. Go read for yourself

 

[Shaya]

This is the song that never ends
it goes on and on ad infinitum my friend