Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_3NH5vu104

ZeRo's analysis is on Corrin...

Just as the discussion was about Corrin.

 

[mountain_tiger]

It's not much, but I think a solid recovery that can kill and that has setups to kill, a kind of bruiser-type playstyle that can rack up damage quite well and kill early with the right decisions and wise usage of her options in neutral could truly make her a much better character than what she is right now. I like hanging out with the Zeldas sometimes, I watch the Zelda Discord's streams and I love theorizing stuff about her (but not practicing, I haven't played Smash much this month and when I do, it's Lucina). I believe she could be better than she is right now.
I admit this might be bias stemming from my always present lowkey affection for her, but still, she's a character I'd love to see optimized and grow, even if a bit.

Zelda's biggest strength by far is her edgeguarding and ledge trapping game. When edgeguarding, she can afford to go out far deeper than many characters can, and can consequently put some opponents into an unwinnable position where even if they guess right, there's still a good chance that they won't be able to successfully recover from it. Obviously when they guess wrong, it means they'll be eating a Dair, which when sweetspotted equals death at practically any percent.

For those characters that are super hard to edgeguard in general, her ledge trap game is also really good because her DTilt is one of the easiest tools to 2 frame with, and it leads into more powerful attacks like DSmash, FTilt, Lightning Kick (if you're feeling daring!) etc.

The problem, of course, is that she has very little opportunity to actually utilise either of the above, thanks to having easily the worst offensive neutral in the game, the most polarising set of aerials that don't mesh together well at all, generally poor frame data where the move has either too much startup lag or too much ending lag (with the notable exceptions of DTilt, UTilt and DSmash) and surprisingly poor range on a huge chunk of her moves (including the aforementioned DTilt, UTilt and DSmash, which are three of her most reliable tools). Actually opening opponents up and pressing any of Zelda's strengths ends up being an uphill struggle to borderline impossible most of the time.

In all honesty, the only character I would comfortably say is definitely worse than Zelda is Jigglypuff, and there are only three others I'd say are debatably worse, those being Ganondorf, Mii Swordfighter and Mii Brawler, assuming 1111 rules apply.

As odd as this may sound, Zelda is in many ways an antithesis to Sonic who is nevertheless trying to follow a similar game plan as him. By this, I mean that Zelda wants to get that early lead and then use her decent defensive game to let the opponent hang themselves, much like Sonic. The main differences being:

a) Sonic is far better at getting that lead than her thanks to an actually functional neutral game
b) Sonic actually has mobility and frame data on his side to keep his lead intact
c) Sonic has a substantially better (i.e. not practically non-zero) chance of making a comeback even if he does fall behind

And you know what? Even close to two and a half years on, it's still almost physically painful to me that they made the decision to give Sheik one of the best down Bs in the game, and Zelda one of the worst. A big part of me wishes I could swap those two moves around!

 

[TDK]

First major upset from Frostbite:

Black Yoshi 2-0 Abadango

 

[Laken64]

And here goes people going on the meme bayonet carries players lol. But tbh every bayonet has a unique play style so aba was probably thrown off by that since he's fought salem the "neutral" of bayo and Captain Zack the "follow-up master". The sheer amount of playstyles and flexibility of bayo is astounding to see.

 

[Flux0r]

First major upset from Frostbite:

Black Yoshi 2-0 Abadango

Uhm, what? How did this happen?

Black Yoshi never sparked me as the most solid bayo.

 

[blackghost]

Uhm, what? How did this happen?

Black Yoshi never sparked me as the most solid bayo.

he plays wadi every week. he knows the mewtwo mu very well. each of his two witch times were great one was a hard read on m2 dtilt and the other was a big mistake from aba. if bayo is standing on a platform there is no reason to use nair. its too east to witch time. aba should have short hopped and used the command grab m2 has. black yoshi struggle when wadi slows te game down aba was too offensive and that plays into blak yoshi's style.
i think this point was mentioned above but bayo is one of very few characters (shiek and cloud also) with multiple sucessful playstyles. from zak offense to salem neutral.

 

[TDK]

Uhm, what? How did this happen?

Black Yoshi never sparked me as the most solid bayo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFUW3RtzjWs

Black Yoshi kept up with Aba long enough to Witch Time him to take the set.

Second major upset at Frostbite:

Blacktwins 2-1 DarkShad

 

[Fenny]

Abadango overextending when he really didn't need to

He was pressing too many buttons even though he had the lead, and against a Bayo who was in disadvantage, whose Down B is like our emergency reversal button. To the point that Black Yoshi managed to Witch Time him twice in like 5 seconds. Black Yoshi knows the M2 matchup since he fights WaDi almost weekly. And WaDi actually plays the MU properly; he slows the game down to his pace, keeps her away with Shadow Balls and Confusion, and only ever really goes for what he knows he can get. Aba got too greedy and BY killed him for it.

 

[-Tornado-]

Komota 2-1 over Ally
EDIT: Updated with characters - it was Kirby, yeah.

 

[ARGHETH]

Komota's a Kirby main, apparently.

 

[Omastar]

Team Ally in shambles

 

[Flux0r]

Yay, komota less go.

So, how did THIS happen?

MU inexperience? Kirby does not do too badly?

 

[ARISTOS]

Practice your grounded movement y'all

 

[FeelMeUp]

Pretty sure Kirby gets washed by Mario, actually.
We'll wait for one of the resident Kirby mains to respond though.

 

[Vyrnx]

Well, that's good news for T.
Edit: rip T lol

 

[blackghost]

learn. your. matchups.at this point the ony character you can get away with not knowing anything about is mii swordfighter.

 

[L9999]

Komota's a Kirby main, apparently.

Was it recorded? If not, Ally most likely approached when he didn't need to (the whole game).

 

[-Tornado-]

Was it recorded? If not, Ally most likely approached when he didn't need to (the whole game).

Yeah, it was on stream.

 

[ARGHETH]

Was it recorded? If not, Ally most likely approached when he didn't need to (the whole game).

Yup, it was on stream.

 

[-Tornado-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Xx0BK5WuQ < Video of the set, for those who want to see how they played.

 

[Laken64]

Ok so zero lost to a Duck hunt, nario lost to Robin and Ally lost to Kirby SeemsGood.so all of the top 3 have embarrassing losses now, But Ally's is going to stick till civil war, or probably the rest of the year R I P

Speaking of the match tho, Kirby is a literal fly for Mario, ducking under grabs floating everywhere and upsmash is the fly swatter lol, Ally probably underestimated the buffs or hasn't played the mu in a while or something but before we fool ourselves Kirby is still low mid/mid regardless

 

[|RK|]

Pretty sure Kirby gets washed by Mario, actually.
We'll wait for one of the resident Kirby mains to respond though.

Depends on who you ask. I - and Dark Wizzy - think it's 55:45 Mario. Others say 60:40 Mario, but I don't agree with that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pretty sure Kirby gets washed by Mario, actually.

No character gets actually washed by Mario in smash 4.

 

[-Tornado-]

And Seagull Joe 2-0 over Komota
rip the dream

 

[NotLiquid]

No character gets actually washed by Mario in smash 4.

I dunno about that, FLUDD washes up Cloud pretty well....

 

[|RK|]

Aaaaand that's why Sonic is our worst MU. Komota seems like he knows the MU, but he still played too much approach instead of catching approaches. As MikeKirby says, when played right, the matches should always take near 6 minutes.

Also, Komota has a dair problem. Dair isn't even that good to be spamming it. But most Kirby players start doing that in panic situations. Nair is better tho.

 

[MistressRemilia]

No character gets actually washed by Mario in smash 4.

?

 

[TDK]

Before anyone tries to claim T was overhyped, I'm going to point out he lost to two of the best players of two of Link's worst matchups.

That'd be like FOW running into Falln and then VoiD, for example.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

TDK I wonder what makes Mario so bad besides his ability to combo Link?

 

[Guido65]

Before anyone tries to claim T was overhyped, I'm going to point out he lost to two of the best players of two of Link's worst matchups.

That'd be like FOW running into Falln and then VoiD, for example.

and are links worst matchups. Just be thankful he never had to fight VoiD. T going fd against seagull joe was also a very poor decision as it gave him more room.

To clarify why going fd vs sonic was a terrible decision is that it gives him more breathing room. Him platform camping sonic and making him approach from the air was a pretty good strategy against sonic and he can't do that on fd for obvious reasons.

 

[|RK|]

TDK I wonder what makes Mario so bad besides his ability to combo Link?

He's faster than Link, makes him think twice about projectiles, and outbuttons him up close. On top of the combos.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I dunno about that, FLUDD washes up Cloud pretty well....

 

[|RK|]

And Tsu beats Tweek - why is today so perfect?

 

[ARGHETH]

Tsu 2-0'd Tweek.

 

[TDK]

and are links worst matchups. Just be thankful he never had to fight VoiD. T going fd against seagull joe was also a very poor decision as it gave him more room.

To clarify why going fd vs sonic was a terrible decision is that it gives him more breathing room. Him platform camping sonic and making him approach from the air was a pretty good strategy against sonic and he can't do that on fd for obvious reasons.

Given T's record vs the Japanese Foxes, I think he could have beaten or had a very good chance vs a fox. T himself also thinks Mario is Link's worst matchup. I'm so happy he didn't fight VoiD, that would have been disastrous.

 

[Das Koopa]

Top 48

Winners:
ZeRo v Ned
Dabuz v KEN
Nairo v WaDi
Mr. E v Captain Zack
MKLeo v Kameme
VoiD v tsu
Seagull Joe v Shuton
komorikiri v Salem

Losers:
Rayquaza07 v Abadango
Blacktwins v ZD
Rich Brown v LOE1
Komota v smasher1001
Tweek v Myran
SuperGirlKels v Deathorse
Zinoto v Mistake
tatanito v DarkAura
Kirihara v DarkShad
Black Yoshi v Chrim Foish
Ranai v Ally
MVD v Ozone
NAKAT v Nom
Ryuga v xane
Fatality v BreaD
Some v Zephyr

Notably out:

T (49th)
IcyMist (49th)
JJROCKETS (65th)
Dark Wizzy (97th)

Aba's answer to Diddy is MK, btw. Beat JJ with him, beat Zinoto with him.

 

[The-Technique]

Hot damn, Nairo/Zero and MK Leo/Ally both sent to Loser's.

 

[Yikarur]

AGON ONE DAY (61 Entrants)
25th February 2017
Germany, NRW, Neuss
1. Purple~H
2. Light
3. LoNg0uw
4. Yikarur
5. wusi
5. Jaller
7. SpechtTV
7. Vuralol

Das Koopa

 

[Baby_Sneak]

he plays wadi every week. he knows the mewtwo mu very well. each of his two witch times were great one was a hard read on m2 dtilt and the other was a big mistake from aba. if bayo is standing on a platform there is no reason to use nair. its too east to witch time. aba should have short hopped and used the command grab m2 has. black yoshi struggle when wadi slows te game down aba was too offensive and that plays into blak yoshi's style.
i think this point was mentioned above but bayo is one of very few characters (shiek and cloud also) with multiple sucessful playstyles. from zak offense to salem neutral.

Pretty sure that's most characters though.

 

[TDK]

Guys, it's not that hard to spell "Zack" >.>