Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[L9999]

Ignore this.

 

[Nu~]

No offence meant. I'm sure you are aware but an example to make the point is always good to have. Otherwise things don't make a whole lot of sense. Anyway I think we're confusing each other a bit with what the other means.

"Zoning" is ambiguous, broad and isn't really a playstyle per se. Neither is "bait and punish". They're gameplay concepts used to describe interactions. Some characters are better at it then others, hell some characters rely on it, but all characters do it consciously or otherwise. Zoning with Mii Brawler is absolutely possible and in fact necessary for him to accomplish anything. There's aggressive zoning and defensive zoning, which brings me back to my original point I made in the post. Playstyle is fluid depending on what you can or can't do when. I understand characters have strengths and weaknesses but lumping them into "playstyles" imo is not such a good idea and is constructing artificial limitations as to how a character "should" be played "optimally".You will find that just because two players are playing the same character slightly differently, they're still basically playing the same game. Whether it's Link or a "linear" grappler character or anyone really, same objective, similar means of achieving that objective, ultimately the same gameplan despite differences in approach taken by players. Which is why saying they branch into differing "playstyles" doesn't sit right with me. To fulfill a different role, to me, would mean a straight-rushdown Link, for example. But a straight-rushdown anyone is not going to end very well.
I would say more but I need to catch a train so apologies for the brief response that doesn't add a whole lot. Please don't take anything I say personally. As it stands I won't say any more on the matter unless you really want some clarification because I'm clearly not conveying what I mean very well.

Oh ****, I think we're arguing a similar point.


I said nearly this exact thing a few months prior to this convo.
Got a post right here on my though

I think the bolded part is what speaks to me the most here. I can't explain to you how much it pains me whenever someone says "X isn't optimal" or "You're a scrub if you don't pick exactly X option"

What do you mean by optimal? There are a wide variety of options you have in every situation that can lead you to a vast number of different goals. Optimal in terms of what? Damage, stage control, positioning?? How do we define what is best absolutely...

Or are you trying to tie them all together into this one vague concept of perfection?


To condense all of your options down to one "absolute and correct end goal" limits player creativity, freedom, and cleverness. It gives the false assumption that we are all robots trying to calculate that one algorithm for perfect smash gameplay.

20XX vibes...


tl;dr: ...I feel ya homie






But I meeeeaaaan hey...

Spoiler: Censored for sacrilege

I'm down for talking about custom moves again . All those juicy options and ideas to play with.

I understand your point that playstyles are fluid and characters don't fit into neat boxes. We agree.


Where I disagree is when you kinda wash over the nuances in gameplans. Yes, the same objective goal is to win the game, but the nature of different character's tools allow the player room to go about that in different ways.
I misspoke when I said "roles", I meant to say gameplan.

A Marth isn't going to box as well as a Mario, an olimar isn't going to rush down as well as a falcon. While all characters can switch their play styles mid match, some can do so far more effectively than others. The nuance matters a lot here.
"Fulfilling a different role" to me, means being able to slip into to a different gameplan well (not concretize there) when necessary. Sheik can camp well when she needs to, and rush down her opponent when the time calls. Bowser can keep opponents out well with his intangible limbs until he gets that grab, but how well can he rush down when the time calls?He doesn't exactly have the frame data to dip his toes into that play style comfortably. Hence why projectile zoners can ruin his day.

It's a matter of relative play style fluidity that makes characters different from one another.

Game plans are built around how well characters can switch between playstyles mid match, and how well chars can profit off of certain play styles compared to other chars imo.


If we're in a one hundred door room, where every room is filled with different types of treasure (bear with me here...hope this makes sense lol) and there are angry monsters chasing us...
if my toolbox can allow me to open three doors quickly, but every other door will take an hour, while you can open three different doors easily, but the rest take an hour...(geez lol)
then our toolboxes are geared towards opening different doors than the other, correct? (Relative playstyle fluidity)

Then we find different treasure to embellish our clothes (different gameplans).

Obviously this isn't a perfect analogy, but I hope the central point hits home.

I...think I made my point. Please reply, when you have the time, if something doesn't make sense. Also, I like to learn, so I'd like you to explain why Meta Knight isn't linear in gameplan.

 

[Y2Kay]

this more or less supports that Some is the best Greninja period

3-2 Zack, 3-0 Fatality

Highest placing Greninja/Lucario ever at a Major. Tsu similarly proved he's better than Day lol

Some was always in the running for best Greninja imo opinion. He has the best technical skill and game sense of the shinobi, but he had never taken part of an ultra competitive USA tourney. I really needed to see how well he could do once Japanese inconsistency goes away and how he stacks up against the Americans.

 

[BunbUn129]

Meta knight being a fairly successful character despite his linearity highlights how effective a few of his options are--namely dash attack/grab, up b, and f smash. They're all among the best of their kind, and the vast majority of characters would give up maybe half their movesets for just one of those.

Starting in mid-2015, his results and tier status have been better than the quality of his options, especially during his peak early last year. He lacked the strong all-around mobility, autocancels, range, and varied combo set-ups that other top-tiers had. Yet at one point he was a contender for top 5. I always found it strange to say MK was a top-tier, because most of his tools were merely average.

The ability to seal stocks consistently goes a long way. It's the goal of the game, after all. Threatening someone with death from midrange and in the air starting at 30%--sometimes much earlier--and with confirms working until beyond 100%...the community fears Ryu's KO power, even though MK's win condition was stronger and arguably still is.

There are two extremes in successful character design. Marth I believe is one extreme, having strong base options and thriving off of forcing others into tough spots and beating out their options with his range. Rather than aiming to capitalize on winning an interaction, Marth succeeds off of winning the interactions themselves. Meta knight is the opposite. With low range, damage, and mediocre spacing options, he will generally get the short end of the stick in a neutral interaction. But through strong true combos that give way to further trap situations and resets, only ZSS, Bayonetta, and Ryu rival his ability to capitalize on any one mistake.

It explains why MK dropped a tier while Sheik remains in the top 4. He had a few incredibly powerful options that made up for his comparatively lacking base tools. It's actually why I slowly switched off the character for Marth: having multiple safe options to space with both on the ground and in the air gives me a breath of fresh air. I'm not forced to constantly fish for the same moves.

This was long but I hope it shows how interesting it is that predictability and linearity can be overcome when the options themselves are rewarding enough.

 

[|RK|]

Not gonna lie I really feel like Kirby is secretly a hidden counterpick character.

Did anyone forget Mr R vs Kid Goggles? Since then it was pretty clear this character had at least some use.
Kirby KOing off grabs and threatening with bairs while having so many jumps is super scary. It's also hard to approach and hit him if you have no leeway in case you mispredict. Kirbys uthrow is also much scarier than Charizards since it'll KO earlier.

Kirby also has some obnoxious stuff against some fastfallers at low % with utilts/grabs and stuff.
Kirby ducking in neutral is kind of a threat. You could run in and try to powershield a dtilt, but he could grab you himself or just walk away. It can also be pretty scary having to land against him because of his strong smashes.

Imo Kirby seems to do ok to well against: Sheik, Fox, Luigi and Mario at least, possibly against ZSS as well since she doesn't like small characters too (that's for high+ tiers).
vyQ (Mario main) and me have started complaining about Kirby since like a year ago.

I guess it's bad for Kirby that you can ban both BF and DL at the same time now with the recommended ruleset, since the top platform makes his uthrow so much more scary below it, but like I said, if you have some other characters that make your opponent ban something else, Kirby could be a decent CP character, though probably not too worth it if you don't like playing him since there are different choices that could be better and easier to use/learn that might help you in more situations/MUs.

Quick notes (I like your post) - Charizard's uthrow is stronger, Kirby certainly loses to Luigi (but we're working on that), Mario is still slightly losing as well. Honestly - unpopular opinion, but I think Kirby only slightly loses to most top tiers. Save for Rosalina and Sonic, naturally.

But slightly losing is still losing.

 

[TDK]

Okay, I've got a question for the Sheik mains.

What's the difference between VoiD and Mr. R when they play Leo? R's record is something like 2-14 but Void's is somewhere around 3-1.

What does VoiD do that Mr. R doesn't?

 

[FamilyTeam]

Perspective of the Marcina side:
Void doesn't forget Marth is carrying a sword around, that's a big plus for starters. He can also exploit Marth's disadvantage and Leo's habits much better than anyone else in the game right now. He knows ow to get into Marth's defences and make his poor point blank range game show.
That's not something that should be specific to Void - that's just how you play this matchup.
I could stake the fire on the Marcina subject here once again, but I won't. This never goes well.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Okay, I've got a question for the Sheik mains.

What's the difference between VoiD and Mr. R when they play Leo? R's record is something like 2-14 but Void's is somewhere around 3-1.

What does VoiD do that Mr. R doesn't?

1. He takes kill opportunities more often instead of focusing on neutral wins.
2. His style of neutral and ledgetrapping have much less shield usage, which is very important against Marth. A lot of Mr. R's losses come from getting Lucario'd. He's winning the game, dies to a rage whatever, gets shield broken at 30 and loses.
3. Better at edgeguard setups using bair and fair.
4. Overextends less at high %s. Mr. R has a big issue with throwing out raw BF/Usmash "reads" once the opponent hits max rage, while VoiD instead chooses to abuse MK Leo's bad habits in disadvantage. Namely attacking off ledge too much and spamming airdodge.
5. Using needles instead of constantly approaching. Gives him more mixups and combo opportunities.

 

[L9999]

FeelMeUp Speaking of VoiD, I was discussing with a guy that IMO he is better than Mr R, but the guy said VoiD was hype combos and nothing else, and I responded that Mr R has the ever neutral syndrome and gets Smash 4'd. I agree that VoiD aggro gets him Smash 4'd too, but then the discussion ended in something interesting: VoiD playstyle might be more optimal in some MUs and Mr R's in others. What do you think about it?

 

[Luigi player]

Quick notes (I like your post) - Charizard's uthrow is stronger, Kirby certainly loses to Luigi (but we're working on that), Mario is still slightly losing as well. Honestly - unpopular opinion, but I think Kirby only slightly loses to most top tiers. Save for Rosalina and Sonic, naturally.

But slightly losing is still losing.

Actually, just tested again to make sure, and in training mode I'm KOing Mario with uthrow on BF omega at 159 % with Kirby and 159 % with Charizard.
Top BF platform: Kirby 133, Charizard 135.

I've also noticed Charizards uthrow can bring Mario into the spinning animation sometimes, while Kirbys uthrow never did (in my testings right now). The spinning in Marios case helped him survive even 1 % longer, though that differs depending on character I think.

I actually found out you can vector Kirbys uthrow as well which made me able to survive until 158 on omega BF. Otherwise I always died at 158, but with vectoring it seems to help 1-2 % lol.
Obviously it helps a loot to DI and vector Charizards uthrow, which otherwise seems stronger.

But even though it's so close, I thought the difference was just a little more, like 5 %, so in this case of 0-3 % it's almost not mention-worthy.


"Kirby certainly loses to Luigi"? I really don't see it. I mean no MU is truly even except dittos, but in any case the most Luigi would have is a small advantage. Unless there's some secret technique which I don't know about that shifts the MU enough in Luigis favor. It definitely was in Luigis favor prepatch where Kirby didn't have a killthrow and Luigi had free combos.

What is Luigi supposed to do against a ducking Kirby in neutral? Only thing he can do is trying to powershield a dtilt to get jabs or a grab in. But you have to time it perfectly which is difficult unless the Kirby is spamming dtilt in the same rhythm lol.
Everything else is useless or unsafe since Kirby can shield any aerial for free and doesn't care about Fireballs, while threatning with dtilt trips and utilt combos.

Luigi can't really catch landings from Kirby because of his multiple jumps and trying to catch him is taking a risk, because bair is threatning. So getting in usmashes is suuper difficult and needs reads when both are in shield or something. The other way around it's super scary having to land with Luigi because of his bad airspeed and nonexistent airmobility.

Luigis dthrow combos also don't work too well, because Kirby is so light and floaty. So he's mostly just getting one fair or uair in. He also struggles to get the KO - usmash and bair are always risky because Kirby could use one of his jumps and punish hard with dair into a smash, bair or anything (and even if he doesn't, Kirby is just super hard to catch either way).

Luigi and Kirby often go about even until high %s in my experience, but this is where Kirby has the advantage because of his grab KOs. While Luigi may be able to land easier on stages with platforms, they also help Kirby getting uthrow KOs earlier which is just super scary since they help the throw a lot.

At first I thought Kirbys recovery is super free to intercept, but it's actually not easy if the Kirby plays it well. Last time I played the Kirby in my scene I wasn't able to hit him at all, even the upB. Having all these jumps really just gives him a lot of options and you need to read airdodges and stuff to do something about it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Dabuz's Jab Cancels on Sheik have been super good in his set with VoiD.

And that Bair edgeguard in the last game was great.

Looks like sticking with the waifu has worked in his favour so far. Hopefully it was just a phase for him.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Shuton's success gives me faith for high-mobility mid-tiers like Toon Link, Lucas, and Pit.
Can't say he gives me hope for characters like ROB, though.

 

[Fenny]

Shuton 3-1 Ally

PLANTPEOPLEBOIZ

 

[Frihetsanka]

Incoming: Possibly Top Tier - Olimar Analysis (1.1.6) - Super Smash Bros Wii U - ZeRo

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

The second shuton won 4 people joined the olimar discord saying they wanted to play olimar because of shuton lol

 

[Deleted member]

Shuton's success gives me faith for high-mobility mid-tiers like Toon Link, Lucas, and Pit.
Can't say he gives me hope for characters like ROB, though.

TL is considered mid tier? Since when?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Shuton's success gives me faith for high-mobility mid-tiers like Toon Link, Lucas, and Pit.
Can't say he gives me hope for characters like ROB, though.

Thanks for the boost in confidence.

 

[-Tornado-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u70Qopv2uFY
Well, it's not Olimar, but we got a Peach analysis from ZeRo.
(this was uploaded mid-set lol)

 

[Fenny]

AURA IS SO DUMB FJEWCBKLAE;RLFNfkml/ewav

 

[Frihetsanka]

Incoming: I Hate This Character - Lucario Analysis (1.1.6) - Super Smash Bros Wii U - ZeRo

 

[|RK|]

Everyone who told me that Lucario wasn't top tier has until the end of the next set to rescind their statements :^)

Also, as someone in the other thread pointed out... Bayo has issues killing, confirmed. Again.

 

[nannerham]

Everyone who told me that Lucario wasn't top tier has until the end of the next set to rescind their statements :^)

Also, as someone in the other thread pointed out... Bayo has issues killing, confirmed. Again.

Caaaaalm down there friendo, I'm as happy as the next guy that tsu is in top 3 but it'll be awhile before lucario is proven a top tier.

 

[FeelMeUp]

just stop trying to place characters like ryu and lucario
it's pointless
pretty pointless to put them in mu charts as well unless your character has a very one-sided matchup against them

 

[Nah]

can we not do that thing where one player has a good run at a tournament and then half the people are like "omg i told u that the character was secretly amazeballs!!!1!!!!11!!" for like the zillionth time

especially in the case of

new aura+rage is dumb as **** is all

 

[|RK|]

I been saying that. ZeRo's been saying that. Mr R, Leo, etc. People just don't listen because they see neutral played at a level below top and assume it applies to the top.

This isn't Ryu, eternally 9th - this is TOP 3. And if you can't see the difference between that and a hype run that ends before top 8 or even top 16... IDK what to tell you.

EDIT: Then again, ESAM exists...

 

[Nah]

I been saying that. ZeRo's been saying that. Mr R, Leo, etc. People just don't listen because they see neutral played at a level below top and assume it applies to the top.

This isn't Ryu, eternally 9th - this is TOP 3. And if you can't see the difference between that and a hype run that ends before top 8 or even top 16... IDK what to tell you.

The exact placing does not matter. One result, no matter how good, does not prove (or disprove) anything. It's one data point. One data point cannot be used to draw conclusions or see a pattern. This is something that everyone should keep in mind in particular when it comes to volatile characters like Lucario.

Lucario is basically Russian Roulette, except you're playing it with Smash Smash Bros. for Wii U instead of a revolver with one bullet, and no one has to clean blood and brains off the floor afterwards.

So we need more results like this in order to actually be able to legitimately say that Lucario is top tier or some such. Otherwise, what reason is there to not just chalk it up to Tsu happening to not lose the roulette and shooting himself, or just happening to have a good day?

 

[HoSmash4]

> Aura and strong kill power because an opponent cant seal the stock is cheap and lucky.
>said opponents have oppressive neutrals but they're ok.

???

 

[|RK|]

By the way, my offer has expired :^)

EDIT: ZERO YOU GOD

EDIT 2: NO TAKEBACKS

 

[Frihetsanka]

Incoming: I Hate This Character - Lucario Analysis (1.1.6) - Super Smash Bros Wii U - ZeRo

This might actually happen. Tsu is amazing!

 

[FeelMeUp]

> Aura and strong kill power because an opponent cant seal the stock is cheap and lucky.
>said opponents have oppressive neutrals but they're ok.

???

you don't see the difference between killing someone for outplaying them once vs having easier tools for outplaying someone 30 times in a row?
i could take a random stock off of ZeRo with Lucario or Ryu because of rage.
a good neutral won't allow that.
one lends to skillful interactions while the other lets you get random janky kills and undeserved wins.

 

[Peppermint1201]

just stop trying to place characters like ryu and lucario
it's pointless
pretty pointless to put them in mu charts as well unless your character has a very one-sided matchup against them

can we not do that thing where one player has a good run at a tournament and then half the people are like "omg i told u that the character was secretly amazeballs!!!1!!!!11!!" for like the zillionth time
new aura+rage is dumb as **** is all

Landing kill moves isn't a coin flip. I think it's A) counterproductive and B) disrespectful to look at someone who's mastered Lucario's style of getting to and abusing his high-percent advantage and say that their victories are so luck-based that there is little/no matchup or character viability data to be extrapolated from them. Tsu isn't getting by on gimmicks and "the Smash 4 factor." These are best of 5 sets. This is a very long bracket run. Don't reduce a grueling journey to Grand Finals down to a random pools upset. Even on a bigger scale, Lucario has pulled decent enough results in the past that we would really be mistaken to dismiss this as a flash in the pan.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Landing kill moves isn't a coin flip. I think it's A) counterproductive and B) disrespectful to look at someone who's mastered Lucario's style of getting to and abusing his high-percent advantage and say that their victories are so luck-based that there is little/no matchup or character viability data to be extrapolated from them. Tsu isn't getting by on gimmicks and "the Smash 4 factor." These are best of 5 sets. This is a very long bracket run. Don't reduce a grueling journey to Grand Finals down to a random pools upset. Even on a bigger scale, Lucario has pulled decent enough results in the past that we would really be mistaken to dismiss this as a flash in the pan.

You get used to it when you read this thread enough times. Sometimes it's better to sift through and just let it blow into the wind, y'know?

 

[HoSmash4]

you don't see the difference between killing someone for outplaying them once vs having easier tools for outplaying someone 30 times in a row?
i could take a random stock off of ZeRo with Lucario or Ryu because of rage.
a good neutral won't allow that.
one lends to skillful interactions while the other lets you get random janky kills and undeserved wins.

Are you suggesting Tsu's run through two top sheiks, and a top cloud/bayo/diddy was all luck? Granted today seems to be a better day for him but Tsu is deserving these wins.

Lucarios design just goes against the standard concept in fighting games of 'being in the lead' which can be alien to a lot of people. However rage is a universal concept and there really isnt a sustainable lead in this game when max rage smash attacks kill 70%.

 

[SaltyKracka]

there really isnt a sustainable lead in this game when Aura Sphere lets you combo into max rage smash attacks to kill at 50 lol

Ftfy

Like, say Lucario is good all you want, but he's good because his high aura options are mad stupid.

 

[Nah]

Landing kill moves isn't a coin flip. I think it's A) counterproductive and B) disrespectful to look at someone who's mastered Lucario's style of getting to and abusing his high-percent advantage and say that their victories are so luck-based that there is little/no matchup or character viability data to be extrapolated from them. Tsu isn't getting by on gimmicks and "the Smash 4 factor." These are best of 5 sets. This is a very long bracket run. Don't reduce a grueling journey to Grand Finals down to a random pools upset. Even on a bigger scale, Lucario has pulled decent enough results in the past that we would really be mistaken to dismiss this as a flash in the pan.

While I did make mentions of Lucario's volatility and say some stuff about luck, that wasn't really the point I was trying to make.

My point is that literally every single time a character not universally accepted as great gets one good result people kinda lose their **** and start making claims about how the character is secret top/high tier when they shouldn't. Why do we still do this? Like I said:

One result, no matter how good, does not prove (or disprove) anything. It's one data point. One data point cannot be used to draw conclusions or see a pattern.

If there are a slew of good Lucario results, what are they, as I don't exactly keep track of the major results of the entire cast? Are these really enough to say that Lucario is indeed a contender for top tier?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Don't reduce a grueling journey to Grand Finals down to a random pools upset. Even on a bigger scale, Lucario has pulled decent enough results in the past that we would really be mistaken to dismiss this as a flash in the pan.

and don't put words in my mouth. i never did either of these things.
nor did i ever say Tsu won by luck.
what i'm saying is mechanics like rage and aura will make it so that you need to outplay the opponent much less than if you were instead given strong neutral tools.

if given sheik needles/fair or diddy's banana you will have a relatively strong neutral, but a good neutral doesn't allow you to win against people that are better than you.
having a mechanic that allows you to lovetap someone at 40 twice after grabbing them once each stock will.
just like rage stacking on top of things like throw combos or true shoryuken.
you can easily bring a game back against someone that won 300000 neutral exchanges if you touch them in the right spot at the right time.
it's very similar to wobbling, in that sense.

 

[Heracr055]

^ Maybe playing with neutral monsters that can't seal the stock is the mistake these 'better' players are making.

 

[FeelMeUp]

well, that's not really a part of the discussion
his potency begins below the reasonable killing % for most characters; 100-120%.
if his current 120 aura strength was at 140 instead, things would look very different. players get understandably upset at losing to a character that was losing for 99% of the game and won neutral twice to get a stock.
similar to turning in a project you worked on for a month but seeing the guy that started his the day before end up cinching the contract. doesn't sit right with most people.
but alas, tis the issue with a 2 stock meta. people that prefer 2 stock over 3 don't really have a right to whine about rage deaths and low % gimps.

 

[SaltyKracka]

similar to turning in a project you worked on for a month but seeing the guy that started his the day before end up cinching the contract. doesn't sit right with most people.

More like a project you got handed half-finished to you with some leads to go on, while the other guy had to go around and collect his research and make his contacts before putting it all together and landing that contract.

Stop glorifying neutral monsters. Sure, they have to win neutral a bunch of times, but they can do that because they get given the godawfully broken tools to do so easily.

 

[Peppermint1201]

and don't put words in my mouth. i never did either of these things.
nor did i ever say Tsu won by luck..

i could take a random stock off of ZeRo with Lucario or Ryu because of rage.

lets you get random janky kills and undeserved wins.

Also, what else are you saying by calling placing Lucario in a tier list "pointless"?
By calling Lucario inconsistent, you claim that he is unable to hold out for an extended period of time in a tournament setting, and has some sort of inherent luck element to him, both of which are demonstrably wrong