Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[The-Technique]

Guys, it's not that hard to spell "Zack" >.>

You mean *the* Bayo plyr Cp Zk?

 

[JB333]

TRAINING ROOM - open season (96 entrants, Mexico)

1. Rox
2. Nanon
3. Chota ?
4. Daimy (possibly)
5. Dozi
5. SC-MikerZs
7. P ?
7. CO~KRAKEN?

if anyone knows the characters for P, KRACKEN, or Chota let me know cause idk.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Chota is a Little Mac main, not sure if he changed characters recently.
Kraken iirc is a Captain Falcon, but don't quote me on that.

 

[Y2Kay]

I remember you saying that the corrin Greninja mu was bad for Greninja a while back, so I didn't know you had a change in opinion also there was Ryuga beating istudying at UGC

That's the wrong ninja. I've never said the likes of that. I've always believed it was even.

I'll fight 10 Corrins before fight another dang Sonic.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Wow that PR chart is great. Love seeing all the Lucas, Ness, and Shulk players I did not know of.

 

[Omastar]

Bowser getting rocked because he couldn't land, was getting camped, and was playing someone with mu experience? What a surprise! /s

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The real shame was that a couple of those juggles could have been broken with a Bowser Bomb.

I know its not a very good move but it could have saved him out of a couple of those juggles where Komo started the Up Air early.

 

[Jaguar360]

In non-Frostbite news, XenoSaga VII happened today with a solid entrant count and a crew battle of the NYC boroughs (which Brooklyn managed to take over Long Island).

http://xenozero.challonge.com/xs7s
XenoSaga VII (84 entrants, NY)
1. Angel Cortes
2. Vinnie
3. KPB | Ho3K | John Numbers
4. Ho3K | Dill
5. FP | Kogarasuma
5. iQHQ | Raptor
7. UtopianRay
7. HBA | Wraith
9. DKwill
9. Ice
9. DA | Sinji
9. Waldo
13. Ken109
13. iQHQ | Dio
13. FS | Frozen
13. Vivi

Koga's run should make the Lucina supporters proud with wins over Sinji, NickC and Gen, all of which tend to do incredibly well in NYC.

 

[JB333]

Tampa Never Sleeps Top 8:
Winners:
Childvs. Wormynugget
dyrvs. Manny

Losers:

DJ Jack vs. 8BitMan
Cashmere vs. saj

Notable players eliminated:

Mew2king 9th
Ryo 13th
Dath 25th (dang)

 

[blackghost]

Pretty sure that's most characters though.

not really. how many ways are there to play link, diddy, ganon, dk, bowser, or metaknight. i mean if you block out the names could you tell nairo zss from mars zss? without names you can 100 id salem or zack bayonetta or void vs mr. r shiek.

 

[Nu~]

not really. how many ways are there to play link, diddy, ganon, dk, bowser, or metaknight. i mean if you block out the names could you tell nairo zss from mars zss? without names you can 100 id salem or zack bayonetta or void vs mr. r shiek.

I'll give you everyone but link on that list. There are quite a few differences between every link.

Some are far more defensive and neutral game focused while others are flashier and try to sink their teeth into the advantage state more often. A character with that many tools can't be linear.
Metaknight and the grapplers tho...oh I could have a field day talking about their one-trick pony-ness.

I think this can lead to an interesting discussion though. What characters do you guys feel have the most potential to branch off into different playstyles? What characters do you think are the most linear in the game?

I know I definitley don't think Mega Man's toolbox is being abused as offensively as it can be...

Sheik and bayonetta are givens for most versatility. Meta Knight, I think, is the most linear character smash 4. Shame considering how much I love the kirby series (Meta Knight being my favorite character in said series :,[ )

 

[The-Technique]

Tampa Never Sleeps Top 8:
Winners:
Childvs. Wormynugget
dyrvs. Manny

Losers:

DJ Jack vs. 8BitMan
Cashmere vs. saj

Notable players eliminated:

Mew2king 9th
Ryo 13th
Dath 25th (dang)

Damn, the two Florida kings not even in top 8? Looks like people leveled up.

 

[vegeta18]

when is this tier list going to be updated? this one seems incredibly outdated

 

[Nemesis561]

Damn, the two Florida kings not even in top 8? Looks like people leveled up.

If you're referring to M2K and Ryo, they've definitely been passed up by several people in Florida. Ryo may not be top 5 in the state and M2k barely plays smash 4 (he's still amazing).

Guys be on the lookout for Wormynugget (Josh), child and cashmere. These are the up and coming top players from Florida who aren't really known nationally yet.

 

[ARISTOS]

I'll give you everyone but link on that list. There are quite a few differences between every link.

Some are far more defensive and neutral game focused while others are flashier and try to sink their teeth into the advantage state more often. A character with that many tools can't be linear.
Metaknight and the grapplers tho...oh I could have a field day talking about their one-trick pony-ness.

I think this can lead to an interesting discussion though. What characters do you guys feel have the most potential to branch off into different playstyles? What characters do you think are the most linear in the game?

I know I definitley don't think Mega Man's toolbox is being abused as offensively as it can be...

Sheik and bayonetta are givens for most versatility. Meta Knight, I think, is the most linear character smash 4. Shame considering how much I love the kirby series (Meta Knight being my favorite character in said series :,[ )

Sheik and Bayo are definitely up there, as well as Mewtwo, Cloud, Sonic, Rosa, and ZSS. Lower down, Olimar, Peach, Pikachu, Greninja, Duck Hunt, Shulk and Villager all seem to be playable in a variety of ways.

MK, the grapplers, and Luigi all seem to have incredibly linear game plans.

 

[Luigi player]

Not gonna lie I really feel like Kirby is secretly a hidden counterpick character.

Did anyone forget Mr R vs Kid Goggles? Since then it was pretty clear this character had at least some use.
Kirby KOing off grabs and threatening with bairs while having so many jumps is super scary. It's also hard to approach and hit him if you have no leeway in case you mispredict. Kirbys uthrow is also much scarier than Charizards since it'll KO earlier.

Kirby also has some obnoxious stuff against some fastfallers at low % with utilts/grabs and stuff.
Kirby ducking in neutral is kind of a threat. You could run in and try to powershield a dtilt, but he could grab you himself or just walk away. It can also be pretty scary having to land against him because of his strong smashes.

Imo Kirby seems to do ok to well against: Sheik, Fox, Luigi and Mario at least, possibly against ZSS as well since she doesn't like small characters too (that's for high+ tiers).
vyQ (Mario main) and me have started complaining about Kirby since like a year ago.

I guess it's bad for Kirby that you can ban both BF and DL at the same time now with the recommended ruleset, since the top platform makes his uthrow so much more scary below it, but like I said, if you have some other characters that make your opponent ban something else, Kirby could be a decent CP character, though probably not too worth it if you don't like playing him since there are different choices that could be better and easier to use/learn that might help you in more situations/MUs.

 

[Guido65]

What characters do you guys feel have the most potential to branch off into different playstyles?

Sheik is easily the most versatile character in the game and most likely has the most potential to branch off into different playstyles. Her versatility is due to the sheer number of options she has at any given moment and the fact sheik has an option for mostly anything and excels at the 3 m's in a fighting game: mobility mind games and mixups(these reasons are also why sheik is still the best character in the game but that's a discussion for another time).

Fox also has a bunch of potential to branch off into different playstyles. From Larry's aggressive rushdown to nakat's very patient playstyle there's definitely a lot of room for him to grow.

What characters do you think are the most linear in the game?

For the most linear characters in the game I think DK and bowser are 2 of the most linear characters in the game. Not because they don't have options but because their gameplans are homogenized around one option.

Corrin is another character who is incredibly linear but not to the same extent as dk bowser and luigi. Corrin however like dk bowser and luigi is heavy centralized around one to three very powerful tools in his fair nair and side b.

Meta knight is also a very linear character in that he heavily revolves around his punish game.

There are quite a few differences between every link.

Some are far more defensive and neutral gamefocused while others are flashier and try to sink their teeth into the advantage state more often.

This is the key difference between T and the other links. He will often go for a bold read and he also is more aggressive and has a much stronger advantage state then the other links.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Speaking of characters with different playstyles, what about someone like Pac-Man or Yoshi?

 

[InfinitySoul]

Pit is currently played defensively as everyone is followinig Earth's style.

But Nairo showed that aggressive Pit is a possibility.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

What about Sonic? Namely SGK's being naturally more aggressive than campy?

 

[PK Bash]

I'll give you everyone but link on that list. There are quite a few differences between every link.

Some are far more defensive and neutral game focused while others are flashier and try to sink their teeth into the advantage state more often. A character with that many tools can't be linear.
Metaknight and the grapplers tho...oh I could have a field day talking about their one-trick pony-ness.

I think this can lead to an interesting discussion though. What characters do you guys feel have the most potential to branch off into different playstyles? What characters do you think are the most linear in the game?

I know I definitley don't think Mega Man's toolbox is being abused as offensively as it can be...

Sheik and bayonetta are givens for most versatility. Meta Knight, I think, is the most linear character smash 4. Shame considering how much I love the kirby series (Meta Knight being my favorite character in said series :,[ )

IDK, "linearity" and "playstyles" as theoretical concepts are arbitrary and in games, quite often fluid. Usually it's reactive to:
-the matchup,
-what your opponent is doing or what you expect them to be doing and/or the situation at hand,
-your relative advantage/disadvantage,
Things like that.
E.G. Let's say I'm playing as Fox, fighting a Mewtwo on BF. The match begins. Mewtwo sits on Battlefield platform charging SBall, my options are I could run up to him and pressure, or I could hang back and just shoot him with lasers. The former is perhaps most in line with what would broadly be considered an "aggressive" playstyle and the latter a more "defensive" playstyle. But in this scenario, the "defensive" playstyle is wrong. I'll run through a potential scenario that stems from the aggressive option first. Let's say I run under the platform and Mewtwo is still on it, I have options. I can either shield where I am, expecting him to drop through and attack, or I can jump up and hit him if I expect him to jump or keep holding charge. Again, one seems aggressive and one seems defensive. As it happens both favour Fox. But shield is the best option. If he drops down and attacks my shield I get a punish and maintain advantage. If Mewtwo holds shield, I can safely pressure the shield. If he jumps I can pressure his landing - the most significant advantage Fox can hope to get. But if I continued to be aggressive and didn't shield, my advantage could have evaporated instantly if he shield-dropped and fair'd me. In fact, Mewtwo would have gained a large advantage simply by switching from "defensive" pressure (charging SBall) to aggressive pressure (striking with fair).
If I stayed back and laser camped at the start, i.e. stuck to a "defensive" playstyle, and let him charge, I would have ****ed up royally because you don't let Mewtwo charge for free in this MU, it skews the match firmly in his favour. This gives Mewtwo an advantage already. Additionally I would have completely lost the chance to gain an early advantage myself.

I've simplified it obviously, but hopefully this illustrates how players may be classed broadly as an "aggressive" player yet still won't necessarily go for the most aggressive option, and vice versa. The game is more fluid than that, thankfully. You see this in matches all the time, whether it's relieving pressure or applying pressure players have to switch between offensive and defensive play, otherwise they will just lose. This is even evident in games involving "linear" grapplers such as Ness or Luigi. You may have a preferred approach but if you stick to just one "playstyle" like dogma then you are just going to get straight-up bodied. If you don't keep aggressive play in check then you will find your advantage slipping away, and it's also important not to concede advantage to the opponent by using intelligent defensive play, but it's also important to keep the opponent on the defensive and subsequently how to capitalise on it with sensible aggression. In the end, it comes down to situational awareness and how well your character deals with said situation.
As a general, but not absolute, rule, the linear characters are usually the bad characters.

Personally I disagree with your assessment of Meta Knight as the most "linear" character but I've let this run long enough. Sorry guys, thanks for making it this far. Hope it wasn't a complete waste of anyone's time.

 

[soniczx123]

What about Sonic? Namely SGK's being naturally more aggressive than campy?

SGK is more aggressive than most Sonics, but she isn't aggressive in it of itself (if that makes sense)

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Watch the Mr. E vs Captain Zack set when it's uploaded if you want to see why Marth does well against Bayonetta.

 

[Deleted member]

Watch the Mr. E vs Captain Zack set when it's uploaded if you want to see why Marth does well against Bayonetta.

I agree. Mr. E is extremely proficient in the Bayo MU as well, Marth mains best be taking notes from his vs. Bayo sets.

 

[soniczx123]

I agree. Mr. E is extremely proficient in the Bayo MU as well, Marth mains best be taking notes from his vs. Bayo sets.

Which is funny cause he's the most pessimistic of the Marth mains in regards to Bayo MU, calling it the one of his worst.

 

[Goombo]

Just waiting here for blackghost to call the matchup a losing one for Bayo and "what is she even supposed to do?"

 

[Deleted member]

Just waiting here for blackghost to call the matchup a losing one for Bayo and "what is she even supposed to do?"

Or you know, you could've not been a total asshat.

 

[Nah]

the report button is a wonderful thing y'know

But anyway, since I'm abhorrently lazy when it comes to watching tournament sets, could someone explain what possibly makes it so that Marth does alright against Bayo?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

the report button is a wonderful thing y'know

But anyway, since I'm abhorrently lazy when it comes to watching tournament sets, could someone explain what possibly makes it so that Marth does alright against Bayo?

Solid grab confirms, good at catching her landings and chasing her down, better neutral, is one of the few characters in the game that can actually edge guard her.

 

[soniczx123]

the report button is a wonderful thing y'know

But anyway, since I'm abhorrently lazy when it comes to watching tournament sets, could someone explain what possibly makes it so that Marth does alright against Bayo?

One factor is that he can actually edgeguard Bayo thanks to Counter and strong disjoints.

 

[Nu~]

IDK, "linearity" and "playstyles" as theoretical concepts are arbitrary and in games, quite often fluid. Usually it's reactive to:
-the matchup,
-what your opponent is doing or what you expect them to be doing and/or the situation at hand,
-your relative advantage/disadvantage,
Things like that.
E.G. Let's say I'm playing as Fox, fighting a Mewtwo on BF. The match begins. Mewtwo sits on Battlefield platform charging SBall, my options are I could run up to him and pressure, or I could hang back and just shoot him with lasers. The former is perhaps most in line with what would broadly be considered an "aggressive" playstyle and the latter a more "defensive" playstyle. But in this scenario, the "defensive" playstyle is wrong. I'll run through a potential scenario that stems from the aggressive option first. Let's say I run under the platform and Mewtwo is still on it, I have options. I can either shield where I am, expecting him to drop through and attack, or I can jump up and hit him if I expect him to jump or keep holding charge. Again, one seems aggressive and one seems defensive. As it happens both favour Fox. But shield is the best option. If he drops down and attacks my shield I get a punish and maintain advantage. If Mewtwo holds shield, I can safely pressure the shield. If he jumps I can pressure his landing - the most significant advantage Fox can hope to get. But if I continued to be aggressive and didn't shield, my advantage could have evaporated instantly if he shield-dropped and fair'd me. In fact, Mewtwo would have gained a large advantage simply by switching from "defensive" pressure (charging SBall) to aggressive pressure (striking with fair).
If I stayed back and laser camped at the start, i.e. stuck to a "defensive" playstyle, and let him charge, I would have ****ed up royally because you don't let Mewtwo charge for free in this MU, it skews the match firmly in his favour. This gives Mewtwo an advantage already. Additionally I would have completely lost the chance to gain an early advantage myself.

I've simplified it obviously, but hopefully this illustrates how players may be classed broadly as an "aggressive" player yet still won't necessarily go for the most aggressive option, and vice versa. The game is more fluid than that, thankfully. You see this in matches all the time, whether it's relieving pressure or applying pressure players have to switch between offensive and defensive play, otherwise they will just lose. This is even evident in games involving "linear" grapplers such as Ness or Luigi. You may have a preferred approach but if you stick to just one "playstyle" like dogma then you are just going to get straight-up bodied. If you don't keep aggressive play in check then you will find your advantage slipping away, and it's also important not to concede advantage to the opponent by using intelligent defensive play, but it's also important to keep the opponent on the defensive and subsequently how to capitalise on it with sensible aggression. In the end, it comes down to situational awareness and how well your character deals with said situation.
As a general, but not absolute, rule, the linear characters are usually the bad characters.

Personally I disagree with your assessment of Meta Knight as the most "linear" character but I've let this run long enough. Sorry guys, thanks for making it this far. Hope it wasn't a complete waste of anyone's time.

I'm well aware of the dynamics of battle and adaptations...

What I'm referring to when I say "versatility" is how well a character can fill different roles. I know playstyles arent static, but characters do lean in different ways.

Try zoning with Mii Brawler

 

[blackghost]



Just waiting here for blackghost to call the matchup a losing one for Bayo and "what is she even supposed to do?"

Wow I'm honored people actually read what I write.
Anyway for the people that don't blanket all bayo mains: understand Zack struggles when his opponent slows matches down and spaces him out.
Zack and Salem are almost void and Mr r in terms each player has mastered half the character.
And yes I do believe long term bayo will have some bad mus with Luigi, shiek, and Diddy. I'm in the minority on that but I enjoy projecting where a meta game will go.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I thought it was generally understood that Marth does reasonably well against Bayonetta and that E's opinion was a bit of an outlier.

 

[Goombo]

Apologies from my side. Wont happen again.


---------------

"Greninja kinda functions like a poor mans fox"

I see ...

this is gonna be interesting

 

[|RK|]

So Tsu has beaten the two best Sheiks this month.

 

[PK Bash]

I'm well aware of the dynamics of battle and adaptations...

What I'm referring to when I say "versatility" is how well a character can fill different roles. I know playstyles arent static, but characters do lean in different ways.

Try zoning with Mii Brawler

No offence meant. I'm sure you are aware but an example to make the point is always good to have. Otherwise things don't make a whole lot of sense. Anyway I think we're confusing each other a bit with what the other means.

"Zoning" is ambiguous, broad and isn't really a playstyle per se. Neither is "bait and punish". They're gameplay concepts used to describe interactions. Some characters are better at it then others, hell some characters rely on it, but all characters do it consciously or otherwise. Zoning with Mii Brawler is absolutely possible and in fact necessary for him to accomplish anything. There's aggressive zoning and defensive zoning, which brings me back to my original point I made in the post. Playstyle is fluid depending on what you can or can't do when. I understand characters have strengths and weaknesses but lumping them into "playstyles" imo is not such a good idea and is constructing artificial limitations as to how a character "should" be played "optimally".You will find that just because two players are playing the same character slightly differently, they're still basically playing the same game. Whether it's Link or a "linear" grappler character or anyone really, same objective, similar means of achieving that objective, ultimately the same gameplan despite differences in approach taken by players. Which is why saying they branch into differing "playstyles" doesn't sit right with me. To fulfill a different role, to me, would mean a straight-rushdown Link, for example. But a straight-rushdown anyone is not going to end very well.
I would say more but I need to catch a train so apologies for the brief response that doesn't add a whole lot. Please don't take anything I say personally. As it stands I won't say any more on the matter unless you really want some clarification because I'm clearly not conveying what I mean very well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So Tsu has beaten the two best Sheiks this month.

If you're trying to make the point that Lucario does well against Sheik - that's kind of old news.

 

[Lord Dio]

komorikiri v Salem

.....how'd it turn out for komo?
Also, let's see how fast it takes for a Kirby analysis video.

 

[Das Koopa]

this more or less supports that Some is the best Greninja period

3-2 Zack, 3-0 Fatality

Highest placing Greninja/Lucario ever at a Major. Tsu similarly proved he's better than Day lol

 

[Lord Dio]

Rip the fatality and komo dreams.......