Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

What is this notion of Marth being inconsistent? It doesn't make sense in this time, right now. Perhaps way back when it did, but.....like, for real, what more does the character have to do to prove his consistency? Like, what else he gotta do, win 5 supermajors? Also yes she has OBJECTIVELY less options, 1 vs Marth's 2 (sour + tipper) per move. You can argue subjectively, but objectively? There's less. Like, I'm gonna be real:

Marth as inconsistent is an excuse. If you as a player prefer Lucina in certain matchups (whether it is empirically better or not), go ahead and argue that, but Marth as inconsistent shouldn't even be an argument anymore.

You completely missed the point. I never said Marth was inconsistent. We're talking about the consistency of kill options.

Seems like you're missing the point entirely or are purposely trying to keep things going fruitlessly by spinning a semantics argument.

Sheik's ftilt kills at like 200% with rage. We don't really talk about it as a kill option, although it is.
Just as nearly everything is a kill option in sudden death.

Thing is, sudden death conditions are 0% of competitive play.
Sheik not killing you until ftilt works is a minuscule amount of the time, 5% at most (at top level similar player skill, like never?).

How much longer are Marth's kill options relevant in comparison.
It's significant.

You are also completely missing the point, sadly. Yes, Marth's kill options become relevant earlier. But that does NOT mean Lucina is *lacking* kill options. The person I quoted gave specific examples of *removed* options. It is not a semantic argument. Please read that in conjunction with my response.

EDIT: Your example doesn't take into account anything that Lucina gains. It's basically "it is removing a kill option because it kills later at the tip." And that's great and all, but it's disingenuous IMO.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Can we honestly stop this argument? Why was this revived?
I already stated quite boldly this discussion doesn't go anywhere because it doesn't want to go anywhere. That is, of course, implying any discussion here doesn't basically resume to circular logic, but atleast the other circles end up being more productive than this.
Can't we talk about something maybe healthier? I was thinking Zelda, my favourite character from the bottom half of the cast. I think she has potential to atleast make it out of Bottom 5.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You completely missed the point. I never said Marth was inconsistent. We're talking about the consistency of kill options.

Ok, so....what is inconsistent about Marth's Aerials (specifically Fair and Uair, Bair works but meh, you generally prefer forward facing with him), his Ftilt, and his Utilt? These moves all kill pretty well raw (even better with optimal positioning) and so long as you, well, space them properly (which isn't excessively difficult to do comfortably as of now).

Unless the argument is that tippers are inconsistent which...I find to be a questionable statement.

 

[|RK|]

Ok, so....what is inconsistent about Marth's Aerials (specifically Fair and Uair, Bair works but meh, you generally prefer forward facing with him), his Ftilt, and his Utilt? These moves all kill pretty well raw (even better with optimal positioning) and so long as you, well, space them properly (which isn't excessively difficult to do comfortably as of now).

Unless the argument is that tippers are inconsistent which...I find to be a questionable statement.

Basically just saying her kill power is consistent along the blade instead of being separated into sweet spots and sourspots. Literal description.

 

[L9999]

Ok, so....what is inconsistent about Marth's Aerials (specifically Fair and Uair, Bair works but meh, you generally prefer forward facing with him), his Ftilt, and his Utilt? These moves all kill pretty well raw (even better with optimal positioning) and so long as you, well, space them properly (which isn't excessively difficult to do comfortably as of now).

Unless the argument is that tippers are inconsistent which...I find to be a questionable statement.

Tipper and sourspot mechanics are labeled as inconsistent because no one is a robot to get what they want at every particular second. It is exaggerated because with skill you can overcome it but it doesn't mean it has some truth on it. But discussing this is pointless, because neither of us will agree to anything.

Can we honestly stop this argument? Why was this revived?
I already stated quite boldly this discussion doesn't go anywhere because it doesn't want to go anywhere. That is, of course, implying any discussion here doesn't basically resume to circular logic, but atleast the other circles end up being more productive than this.
Can't we talk about something maybe healthier? I was thinking Zelda, my favourite character from the bottom half of the cast. I think she has potential to atleast make it out of Bottom 5.

What do you see in Zelda that will get her out of her reserved chair in garbage tier? Just curious.

 

[FamilyTeam]

It's not much, but I think a solid recovery that can kill and that has setups to kill, a kind of bruiser-type playstyle that can rack up damage quite well and kill early with the right decisions and wise usage of her options in neutral could truly make her a much better character than what she is right now. I like hanging out with the Zeldas sometimes, I watch the Zelda Discord's streams and I love theorizing stuff about her (but not practicing, I haven't played Smash much this month and when I do, it's Lucina). I believe she could be better than she is right now.
I admit this might be bias stemming from my always present lowkey affection for her, but still, she's a character I'd love to see optimized and grow, even if a bit.

 

[ARGHETH]

Can we honestly stop this argument? Why was this revived?
I already stated quite boldly this discussion doesn't go anywhere because it doesn't want to go anywhere. That is, of course, implying any discussion here doesn't basically resume to circular logic, but atleast the other circles end up being more productive than this.

TL;DR someone thought that Lucina was top 10 (they mentioned being better than Mewtwo and ZSS in later posts), other people questioned that, and it turned into the clusterf**k that is Marcina discussion.
I just find it funny that Marcina viability used to be discussed enough that it turned into a meme and yet we unironically started arguing about her anyways.

To keep this on topic, what are the main problems with Zelda? From what I can tell, it's some combination of ground mobility and problems approaching...kind of like Robin without the amazing aerials.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I would not say her aerials are bad, the problem is that they don't synergize well into making her air game good. That Up Air is very strong and Back/Forward Air have amazing properties to them damage and knockback wise, but the way she is laid out kinda limits her options a bit too much. She essentially has 2 knees, or 2 shield breakers as spacing aerials, and that's kind of awkward for her.
I'd rather leave more detailed opinions to the Zelda mains, though. I don't try to act like I know more than their mains.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Do our top tier characters have a multitude of options or just options that covers multiple situations? Who are the most creative players In your guys opinions? Who are the craziest and sporadic players in your guys opinions?

 

[Nu~]

Do our top tier characters have a multitude of options or just options that covers multiple situations? Who are the most creative players In your guys opinions? Who are the craziest and sporadic players in your guys opinions?

Glutonny is easily one of the most creative players imo. Single-handedly developed the aggro style of Wario and has enough fun setups to make even Pac-Man mains jealous.

VoiD is definitely up there too. Labs constantly and finds uses for every one of sheik's moves.


Edit: I should probably add ViceGrip as well. Don't really get to see him all that often but his Ludwig is a treat. Jab locks, Mechakoopa traps, 0-60% combos...so much fun to watch.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The koopalings/junior have a 0%-60% combo? Wish I could do it. Seriously I sometimes get steamrolled by GOOD koopaling players because their mechakoopas just cover so many options. And then there's Z-dropping which can lead into a combo. I wanted to main Ludwig myself but I just don't have the skill to pull that off.

 

[ぱみゅ]

For the record, I did never say Marth had "better kill options", I simply said he can very well kill early while just doing his normal stuff when Lucina needs to either commit to kill as early, or prolong the game which you do not want to do against most Top Tiers.
I do not appreciate the anecdotal evidence and that "I once read something and got a kill at X%".
I kind of appreciate the average kill %, but I doubt the Lucina sample at Top Level play (among two players that know the matchup) is wide enough to provide a fair comparison.

Again, both can play very similarly and have about the same matchup spread, but in Smash 4 more interactions generally means more chances of something stupid happening, regardless of who they may benefit.




Also, sorry but Zelda is terrible. She won't make it out of bottom 5 because she is not less terrible than other 5 characters, her ground game is sluggish, has no landing options, has very little safety, has no reliable punish game (I miss her Brawl smashes), has awful grab game, has virtually no aerial game.
A lot of kill power and even some setups into it (dthrow>Uair) but too much of a fragile gameplay, basically a glass cannon too geared towards the glass part.

 

[Luco]

Zelda's never been a character with a bright outlook. With the exception of two unorthodox OoS options which are both incredible punishable and a bit jank, she struggles to deal with pressure, she's *terrible* at approaching especially in this defensive meta, she does have a threatening grab but it's punishable and the throws / combos relies on bad DI and at high percent she *has* to read your DI to kill. Phantom is a good tool except for that part where you commit to it the moment you start it and I don't think we need to talk about the various wonders of Din's Fire. Aerials that cannot autocancel with tiny 1-frame sweetspots, smashes people can still fall out of...

Zelda's a shadow of a character. Her community has all but given up on her. And the worst part? It would be *so* easy to make so much of this work like it's intended to.

I am not a Zelda optimist, sadly (she's a lot of fun though).

Also hi guys! Been a while, internet's been out for 2 months and we juuust got it back. Have we re-accepted our DLC overlords yet?

 

[The-Technique]

People are certainly phrasing their sentences in a way that allows it to be interpreted that she can't.
I think people overreact to Forward Tilt and get way too impressed. Yeah, Jab>FTilt is great and cool looking if you don't know how to DI towards Marth and mash airdodge, but if your sparring partner since childhood is a Marth main that you play with all the time, and you form a nice habits of observing patterns of positioning, you can tell when maybe you shouldn't approach and get FTilted.
I feel like most of these FTilt kills just stem from the exact same problem people have in this MU in general: Stop actually trying to challenge Marcina's range, it doesn't work.

MK Leo lands jab > f-tilt often enough against top players that I'm less inclined to believe its a case of "oh they just aren't skilled enough to DI properly"

 

[L9999]

Also hi guys! Been a while, internet's been out for 2 months and we juuust got it back. Have we re-accepted our DLC overlords yet?

Before all the stage nonsense and the eternal debate of life and death we were still going on about Cloud and Bayonetta. With we discussed that if she was broken why doesn't she win tournaments left and right. We discussed her bad MUs, with being the most prominent, with receiving some mention. we were on the debate whether he was overrated trash or competitive play poison. Evidence presented was a MU chart by Tweek which we discussed, and while there were nitpicks, it was certainly agreeable, and from both viewpoints it is interesting how Cloud is The worst MU of many characters, and even if Cloud didn't exist are next in line to crush dreams of the characters invalidated by him. Next the whole "pocket Cloud iz cancer" debate was discussed heavily and was concluded peacefully thanks to Mr R. Consensus is that pocket Cloud is a lie, end of story. As for the other DLC characters: wasn't discussed in detail IIRC, but just throwing comment out there, I think his meta is slowing down. I guess he is an specialist character but his players aren't moving up by much like in the M2 hype days. hasn't done much. At the very least people are now more likely to list Lucas' own merits as a character instead of validating their opinion by pissing on , who has a shaky meta (get it?) and has nothing to do with Lucas. has made revolutions thanks to Locus' appearance and Trela's return, and we were discussing whether Ryu is good or he is doing well because people aren't willing to play lame. still in low tier but he has gotten a lot of attention thanks to Ryo and Hyper. I guess we adapted well but still iffy on .

 

[ARGHETH]

Before all the stage nonsense and the eternal debate of life and death we were still going on about Cloud and Bayonetta. With we discussed that if she was broken why doesn't she win tournaments left and right. We discussed her bad MUs, with being the most prominent, with receiving some mention. we were on the debate whether he was overrated trash or competitive play poison. Evidence presented was a MU chart by Tweek which we discussed, and while there were nitpicks, it was certainly agreeable, and from both viewpoints it is interesting how Cloud is The worst MU of many characters, and even if Cloud didn't exist are next in line to crush dreams of the characters invalidated by him. Next the whole "pocket Cloud iz cancer" debate was discussed heavily and was concluded peacefully thanks to Mr R. Consensus is that pocket Cloud is a lie, end of story. As for the other DLC characters: wasn't discussed in detail IIRC, but just throwing comment out there, I think his meta is slowing down. I guess he is an specialist character but his players aren't moving up by much like in the M2 hype days. hasn't done much. At the very least people are now more likely to list Lucas' own merits as a character instead of validating their opinion by pissing on , who has a shaky meta (get it?) and has nothing to do with Lucas. has made revolutions thanks to Locus' appearance and Trela's return, and we were discussing whether Ryu is good or he is doing well because people aren't willing to play lame. still in low tier but he has gotten a lot of attention thanks to Ryo and Hyper. I guess we adapted well but still iffy on .

Also, Corrin's...there. Generally acknowledged to be a good character, but with a lack of results because Ryuga, Cosmos, and Ryo still don't really travel.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

DI in and mash airdodge, then eat a charged up smash because it can be punished on reaction

A lot of characters can be better than they are right now, Zelda isn't anything special in that regard. She lacks the mobility and safety to make it past bottom 5, there are other bottom tiers that have a much MUCH better chance at moving up

 

[L9999]

Also, Corrin's...there. Generally acknowledged to be a good character, but with a lack of results because Ryuga, Cosmos, and Ryo still don't really travel.

Forgot about him/her. She is like Yoshi that when one of their players finally does something with her no one cares, someone says she sucks, and finally the accomplishment gets deleted.

 

[Krysco]

Pretty sure I saw this either mentioned in a post here or in one of Introspecktive's videos that Cloud's nair is able to work as a fair, bair, uair, dair and of course nair very well. If Zelda had an aerial like that, she'd likely be able to get out of bottom 5. It could make up for her essential lack in proper fair/bair. Also, what's so great about her Brawl smashes save for dsmash? Thanks to sdi, both her fsmash and usmash were easy to get out of in Brawl, although staling made her usmash slightly better. I'm not sure on the power or speed differences between usmash and fsmash between Brawl and Sm4sh but they're harder to get out of in this game, making them more consistent and reliable kill moves.

 

[ぱみゅ]

When you managed to SDI out of Fsmash you could still be sent to any wonky direction making it difficult to punish on hit.
Usmash was VERY difficult to escape from though, required TAS-like levels of SDI to do so, making it pretty effective.


But while I am not sure either of the power differences, there is one clear, key difference: In Brawl the hitboxes were bigger.
You could run Usmash to punish a whiff, and Fsmash was an efficient enough walling tool (even if it wouldn't fully connect all the time) that gave Zelda a decent defensive strategy.
With the nerf during the transition (yeah, Smash 4 managed to nerf a Bottom Tier), she was left with no game plan. Sure, the Farore Elevator was cool and Utilt was now a combo move instead of a kill move, but she's nowhere near a coherent character.

 

[Das Koopa]

Sumabato 16 (February 25th) (Kansai) (165 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: SHIG | 9B
2nd: Oisiitofu
3rd: Taiheita
4th: Shogun
5th: Kuro
5th: Earth ,
7th: HIKARU
7th: Edge
9th: Es ,
9th: Compact
9th: ikep
9th: Lickey★ ,
13th: Atelier
13th: DNG | Nietono ,
13th: Chanshu
13th: Corrin

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Sumabato 16 (February 25th) (Kansai) (165 Entrants) (Category 3)

13th: Corrin

Ike? In Japan????

 

[Das Koopa]

i was more shocked that ike existed at all

 

[ぱみゅ]

According Earth's twitter, Kuro used Fox against Lickey★

 

[Wintermelon43]

i was more shocked that ike existed at all

I was even more shocked that someone named Corrin used Ike.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Glutonny is easily one of the most creative players imo. Single-handedly developed the aggro style of Wario and has enough fun setups to make even Pac-Man mains jealous.

VoiD is definitely up there too. Labs constantly and finds uses for every one of sheik's moves.


Edit: I should probably add ViceGrip as well. Don't really get to see him all that often but his Ludwig is a treat. Jab locks, Mechakoopa traps, 0-60% combos...so much fun to watch.

I would also add DKwill, Ryukred for Falcon (though he's only active online), and Poke for Luigi.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-power-rankings-directory-project-2-0.445794/

new Power Rankings directory is complete

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I think people overreact to Forward Tilt and get way too impressed. Yeah, Jab>FTilt is great and cool looking if you don't know how to DI towards Marth and mash airdodge

I mean, you want to eat an up smash be my guest!

MK Leo lands jab > f-tilt often enough against top players that I'm less inclined to believe its a case of "oh they just aren't skilled enough to DI properly"

At higher percents tipper jab makes tipper ftilt unavoidable anyway. But you can react to DI from sour jab. DI in means utilt, usmash, or uair, DI away means fair, bair, or following and applying other means of pressure, or even ftilt still. Or you could be a smart Marth player and mix up your jabs by following them up with jab 1 again, jab 2, or dancing blade, which can also just combo out of jab 1.

 

[FullMoon]

Seems like the Greninjas are coming out of hiding again, Some and Oisiitofu are putting in some nice work.

 

[InfinitySoul]

Spoiler alert : Play from Frostbite

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/LTACYViGHnc?t=4m41s

Cpt Zack's near 0 to death on Kirihara is pretty discusting.

But there was definitly things Kirihara could have done to avoid it.
What DI should he have picked to the two sideBs ?
What options should he have picked to avoid the upB ?

Thank you in advance for your help

 

[Bowserboy3]

Spoiler alert : Play from Frostbite

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/LTACYViGHnc?t=4m41s

Cpt Zack's near 0 to death on Kirihara is pretty discusting.

But there was definitly things Kirihara could have done to avoid it.
What DI should he have picked to the two sideBs ?
What options should he have picked to avoid the upB ?

Thank you in advance for your help

After the first DABK, Kirihara could have merely air dodged - especially at that percent, DABK does not do nearly enough hitstun to be a combo orientated move. That poor DI on hit didn't help his position either, as away DI would have prevented any single follow up, even if it did do enough hitstun.

He could have likely air dodged after the Witch Twist too, but only because one hit connected.

I'm also thinking the confirm Zack got from the DABK at 6:55 could have been air dodged out of too, but at that percent, it's more debatable. I am 100% positive the first one could have been avoided, no doubt.

Awareness, folks.

---

Though as a guy who uses both Rosalina and Bayonetta, and as unneeded/unvalid as my opinion is, I don't think this MU is quite as bad as most people make it out to be for Rosalina. It's a MU that you have to play more defensive than almost any other, but it's possible. I think a 55:45 to Bayonetta would be a fair assumption. Bayonetta being a light character and a fast faller only makes Uair combos easier (ones that can't be Bat Within'd out of with correct timing). Good usage of Rosalina's crawl is key in this MU, as it makes it harder for Bayonetta to use Bullet Climax, as well as hit things like falling Bair, Uair, Fair etc.

Another misc thing that I like about this MU is that when Bayonetta is comboing Rosalina and Luma, if she hits Luma first, the hitlag Bayonetta receives upon hitting Luma gives Rosalina more of a chance to escape; I've escaped many combos because Bayonetta's ABK hit Luma first, which gave me enough time to airdodge out of something that would have otherwise been true.

Still difficult, and still an advantage for Bayonetta, but totally doable. I'm no top player, but I've beaten other good Bayonetta players in my area with Rosalina; in fact, last week, I attended a tournament (which I got 4th at, pretty pleased with that) I had to play one guy in my area who uses R.O.B., and he has Bayonetta as a secondary (a damn good one at that), specifically for the Rosalina MU. I managed to force out his Bayonetta, beat him, and make him switch back to his main, R.O.B...

... I then lost against R.O.B... ripperoni... but it's there though. I totally think the MU is possible.

Meta Knight and Cloud on the other hand... ugh.

 

[Yikarur]

Top8 of a German Regional is going on right now.

Upcoming:

Winners Final:
Light vs. Purple~H

Loser Quarters:
Longouw vs. Jaller
wusi vs. Yikarur

www.twitch.tv/teamcalyptus

 

[Bowserboy3]

wusi vs. Yikarur

www.twitch.tv/teamcalyptus

Hey, I see what you're doing here!

Good luck, rep that Yoshi! Let us know what happens!

 

[Laken64]

Also, Corrin's...there. Generally acknowledged to be a good character, but with a lack of results because Ryuga, Cosmos, and Ryo still don't really travel.

This summer Cosmos will graduate from HS and will be traveling a LOT more since he's freed of school work, not to mention he's the best rep for corrin Imo

Forgot about him/her. She is like Yoshi that when one of their players finally does something with her no one cares, someone says she sucks, and finally the accomplishment gets deleted.

I highly disagree with comparing Yoshi to corrin because the latter does way better when it comes to results and accomplishments in majors than what Yoshi has ever done in this game:
Super smash con : Frozen, Ryuga, and Ryo 17th

Aftershock 2016: cosmos 3rd upsetting samsora and only losing to dabuz and Captain Zack

TBH6: cosmos 17th beating zinoto (one of her worst mus)
Some examples ( would add more but mobile essays are a pain lol)

But overall you simply can't ignore in the meta because
1. Has one of the most broken moves in the game with IP/DL that can single handedly shut down some mus with it's amazing damage output, killing potential with kick or tipper offstage (which kills stupidly early) or 2 frame punishes

2.counters characters like(but once he gets in like any other mu rip)

3. Has a strong string and combo game for a swordy (dtilt, uptilt uptilt, FF fair fair into DFS and bite, fair fair upair)

4. Is basically a walking sea urchin of disjoint

5. Has the strongest traditional counter in the game also DFS can break shields and kill mad early

literally has none of this to make him threating and will make sure he never succeeds, which is why he's irrelevant, but If you decide forget about Corrin, she'll make you remember with a IP to the skull.

 

[Y2Kay]

2.counters characters like

What? Venia has beaten Frozen and John Number's secondary Corrin plenty of times, I don't know where you got this notion from.

 

[Laken64]

What? Venia has beaten Frozen and John Number's secondary Corrin plenty of times, I don't know where you got this notion from.

I remember you saying that the corrin Greninja mu was bad for Greninja a while back, so I didn't know you had a change in opinion also there was Ryuga beating istudying at UGC

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Congrats on the Losers Quarters win! Your neutral is really crisp!

 

[Illusion.]

Data points to Corrin winning the MU. Ryuga has beaten Venia, Strozai, and iStudying. Cosmos always beats Gibus (skill gap being present is arguable) and Frozen and Venia go back and forth.

Obviously, results don't mean everything, but it's something to note.

 

[Laken64]

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=1_3NH5vu104
Ok it happened once but now I'm slightly convinced ZeRo either lurks here or makes hard reads on what's going on in this thread >.>

 

[Nah]

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=1_3NH5vu104
Ok it happened once but now I'm slightly convinced ZeRo either lurks here or makes hard reads on what's going on in this thread >.>

A fair few top level players lurk this thread iirc

What is the video you're trying to link to though? When I click on it it just brings me to the Youtube home page.

Also Dragon Lunge/Instant Pin is certainly a good tool, but is not one of the most broken moves in the game/does not literally take care of MUs by itself, this isn't release week