Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

Lucario: the only character in the history of Smash with bad hitboxes, frame data, and mobility specs but the ability to beat any top or high tier character played at even skill levels.

His mobility isn't bad! He has great initial dash speed, above average airspeed, and Aura Sphere Charge to dance around in the air.

 

[Bowserboy3]

And with absolutely impeccable timing considering the past days of discussion, ZeRo swoops in with an analysis video I actually agree with for once.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I honestly feel like at this point marth/lucina should be turned into a red topic. This was already discussed to death multiple times.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I honestly feel like at this point marth/lucina should be turned into a red topic. This was already discussed to death multiple times.

Perhaps, but nothing ever seems to get agressive/heated.

 

[IPML]

And with absolutely impeccable timing considering the past days of discussion, ZeRo swoops in with an analysis video I actually agree with for once.

Worth noting ZeRo has a much larger "top tier" than 4BR, as he says in the video when he says she might be 17th and top tier- a placing I don't think is too crazy. He also mentions she might be 9th which seems high since her meta isn't as developed as the top tiers in the game (I have no idea about her potential tbh I haven't seen a Lucina in quite a while).

 

[L9999]

And with absolutely impeccable timing considering the past days of discussion, ZeRo swoops in with an analysis video I actually agree with for once.

Since ZeRo came here sometimes to flamebait I'm under the suspition he lurks the thread to troll us. The video is legit nonetheless.

Perhaps, but nothing ever seems to get agressive/heated.

I know certain people here who get super aggresive if you say Lucina is super good.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Perhaps, but nothing ever seems to get agressive/heated.

I swear, ZeRo is not helping things recently.

I know certain people here who get super aggresive if you say Lucina is super good.

Of course this is absolutely nothing compared to what you'll see on r/smashbros.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I honestly feel like at this point marth/lucina should be turned into a red topic. This was already discussed to death multiple times.

Eh, there's not an obvious answer to the question and it's relevant. I see little reason for banning it. I think over time more and more people will side with "Lucina is almost as good as Marth" and there'll be less need for discussion.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Eh, there's not an obvious answer to the question and it's relevant. I see little reason for banning it. I think over time more and more people will side with "Lucina is almost as good as Marth" and there'll be less need for discussion.

Or better yet, exclude Lucina from discussion to not fuel as much controversy because we can't agree on a decision for the life of us.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Or better yet, exclude Lucina from discussion to not fuel as much controversy because we can't agree on a decision for the life of us.

I believe that we'll eventually find somewhat close to a consensus. It might take months or years though. At least few people are putting Lucina 20 spots lower than Marth these days.

Anyway, instead of discussing whether or not we should discuss Lucina/Marth, why not just bring up some new subject to discuss?

 

[TDK]

Hey guys, did you know Pikachu has a kill confirm out of his up throw?

 

[Goombo]

Anyway, instead of discussing whether or not we should discuss Lucina/Marth, why not just bring up some new subject to discuss?

When do we ban Cloud from doubles?

 

[Y2Kay]

When do we ban Cloud from doubles?

Same day we ban bayo from singles.

 

[Frihetsanka]

When do we ban Cloud from doubles?

I think some European tournaments have talked about doing that, though at the moment they seem to be leaning more towards banning double-Cloud rather than outright banning Cloud.

I'm not sure if we're allowed to discuss this subject in this thread though. It's a yellow topic at best (Rulesets), and a red topic at worst (Ruleset preference discussion).

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Hey guys, did you know Pikachu has a kill confirm out of his up throw?

Insert obligatory Slowpoke meme here...

 

[Guido65]

Same day we ban bayo from singles.

So we never ban them?

 

[Rizen]

So we never ban them?

Let's not fool ourselves, Cloud and Bayo aren't going anywhere.

 

[teddystalin]

Anyway, instead of discussing whether or not we should discuss Lucina/Marth, why not just bring up some new subject to discuss?

Wanted to ask this for a while... In light of Aba breaking out MK to beat Zinoto and take ZeRo to game 5*... What's holding Meta Knight back? He's small, high-mobility, oozes high-damaging combos and kill setups. He's shown consistent ability to overcome perceived checks through sheer punishes, but unlike Ryu (another character who does just that and whom MK consistently matches results-wise), he's seen less as a character with potential and more like a character settled in place as a high-tier floaty counter. This despite struggling far less with campy play and being much more difficult to edgeguard. Is the shadow of the uair nerf really so long?

*=On top of that, Ito has a winning record over Zinoto and Tyrant does well against K9.

 

[|RK|]

So, one thing I found interesting from ZeRo's video is that he said Marvin's potentially goes even with Bayonetta... why? It feels like at the top level, we make MUs arbitrarily close because it's a match between two top tiers (unless you're Mario). As for Marth vs Bayonetta... doesn't Marth do literally everything Bayo enjoys (outside of being a fastfallers)? His gameplan is focused around attacks over grabs, he has a tall frame, he has issues landing. He has no projectiles, his recovery is relatively linear... what makes this good for Marth other than "top players can overcome bad MUs"?

Maybe I'm crazy and missing something there, but I'm curious about everyone else's thoughts.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So, one thing I found interesting from ZeRo's video is that he said Marvin's potentially goes even with Bayonetta... why? It feels like at the top level, we make MUs arbitrarily close because it's a match between two top tiers (unless you're Mario). As for Marth vs Bayonetta... doesn't Marth do literally everything Bayo enjoys (outside of being a fastfallers)? His gameplan is focused around attacks over grabs, he has a tall frame, he has issues landing. He has no projectiles, his recovery is relatively linear... what makes this good for Marth other than "top players can overcome bad MUs"?

Maybe I'm crazy and missing something there, but I'm curious about everyone else's thoughts.

His grab game is really good despite not getting OMGCOMBOZ, he has a good trap game on her landings, he is light so SDI can help him escape, he has a lot of movement so he can punish her Special Landings, and thanks to his long-ranged pokes he isn't very vulnerable against Witch Twist.


But the part that really can turn the tables on his favor is edgeguarding. His sword is bigger than Bayo's attacks, can rack a lot of damage off of a single edgeguard, and he can even just Counter on her recovery attempts since she lacks any sort of invincibility.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

So, one thing I found interesting from ZeRo's video is that he said Marvin's potentially goes even with Bayonetta

Finally a hidden character to counter bayonetta. Marvin is the future of smash 4

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Finally a hidden character to counter bayonetta. Marvin is the future of smash 4

Pardon me while I rethink my life.

 

[BunbUn129]

Wanted to ask this for a while... In light of Aba breaking out MK to beat Zinoto and take ZeRo to game 5*... What's holding Meta Knight back? He's small, high-mobility, oozes high-damaging combos and kill setups. He's shown consistent ability to overcome perceived checks through sheer punishes, but unlike Ryu (another character who does just that and whom MK consistently matches results-wise), he's seen less as a character with potential and more like a character settled in place as a high-tier floaty counter. This despite struggling far less with campy play and being much more difficult to edgeguard. Is the shadow of the uair nerf really so long?

*=On top of that, Ito has a winning record over Zinoto and Tyrant does well against K9.

Meta Knight's low damage-per-hit and range often result in poor trades, and his physics and lack of a frame-3 aerial make him combo fodder. Both these things partially negate the usually high damage granted off of a single confirm. His mobility isn't all good: being a fast-faller with mediocre air speed makes landing tough vs faster characters, and he isn't good at giving chase in the air (though his ability to punish landings is strong). As good as his combo game is, it isn't very consistent, mostly because Shuttle Loop behaves erratically at high percents. Ledge camping is a big problem since MK's combo-starters send diagonally, and with DI down-away there often isn't a true follow-up on fast-fallers from strong dash attack and d throw, sometimes even at 0%. Relating to this, his reliance on up b for KO's limits where he can threaten his opponent with death.

There's nothing really obvious holding MK back. It's just several subtle issues that you can't fully understand the effects of without extensively playing the character. I've said it a while back: making Shuttle Loop more consistent would bring MK back into the top-tier. The up air nerf just exacerbated the move's linking problems.

Ryu is viewed more highly because 1) his kill set-ups are much more consistent, and 2) his design is more unorthodox with his tilt variations and Focus Attack, creating the illusion that he's overtuned. He's been overrated, though he is still a few spots better than MK.

 

[TDK]

Speaking of Doubles, Dark Wizzy made a tweet on what he thought the best teams were (Assuming in order)

Spoiler

- Double Cloud
- Double Peach
- Mario Cloud
- Mario Peach
- Lucario Lucas
- Sonic Cloud
- Sheik Cloud
- Mario Mewtwo
- Mario Yoshi

 

[Aaron1997]

Just something I'll throw out. Its Geared towards Shulk but other character might be able to do something like this.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

TDK Why Mario/Yoshi?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Speaking of Doubles, Dark Wizzy made a tweet on what he thought the best teams were (Assuming in order)

Spoiler

- Double Cloud
- Double Peach
- Mario Cloud
- Mario Peach
- Lucario Lucas
- Sonic Cloud
- Sheik Cloud
- Mario Mewtwo
- Mario Yoshi

Not to shocked see Mario on so many teams. His back throw is ridiculous in doubles and guarantees a setup or followup move for your teammate if it does not get interrupted. What makes Peach so good in doubles though?

 

[|RK|]

Doubles is oversaturated by Cloud only because so few people actually care about the doubles meta. IMO.

 

[verbatim]

Not to shocked see Mario on so many teams. His back throw is ridiculous in doubles and guarantees a setup or followup move for your teammate if it does not get interrupted. What makes Peach so good in doubles though?

All of her aerials set up well for teammates except for forward air, which finishes stocks rediculously early. She's also really good at weaving in and out of stuff.

 

[NairWizard]

"Lucina does well in the same matchups that Marth does"

Uhh, she does? That's news to me.

Think about it this way.

If you took away one kill option from any current top tier that top tier would likely suffer in all matchups down the board and probably fall to high tier. Take away Diddy's d-tilt b-air, or Cloud's limit cross slash, or Sheik's needles -> bouncing fish and you've got a huge, matchup-defining hit to the character.

Now do the same thing for like 5 kill options.

That's the gap between Marth and Lucina.

Lucina gets better edgeguarding, f-smash, and n-air to f-smash confirms in exchange for DB, tipper n-air, tipper up-air, tipper f-smash, tipper f-tilt, tipper up-tilt, tipper b-air, and even tipper f-air lol. Marth has 5 or so more options for killing at reasonable percents.

They shouldn't be close at all. This argument is insane.

 

[|RK|]

"Lucina does well in the same matchups that Marth does"

Uhh, she does? That's news to me.

Think about it this way.

If you took away one kill option from any current top tier that top tier would likely suffer in all matchups down the board and probably fall to high tier. Take away Diddy's d-tilt b-air, or Cloud's limit cross slash, or Sheik's needles -> bouncing fish and you've got a huge, matchup-defining hit to the character.

Now do the same thing for like 5 kill options.

That's the gap between Marth and Lucina.

Lucina gets better edgeguarding, f-smash, and n-air to f-smash confirms in exchange for DB, tipper n-air, tipper up-air, tipper f-smash, tipper f-tilt, tipper up-tilt, tipper b-air, and even tipper f-air lol. Marth has 5 or so more options for killing at reasonable percents.

They shouldn't be close at all. This argument is insane.

This isn't a good analogy, I don't think. Lucina doesn't lack any kill options - she just gets more consistency instead. If you keep viewing Lucina vs Marth as a removal of options, of course you'd think it's crazy. But it's objectively not a removal.

What you're talking about is more akin to removing Bayo's huge punishes in exchange for smaller punishes that are more difficult to escape, or something of that nature. Not removing an option wholesale.

 

[Das Koopa]

Puerto Rico vs. Tampa Florida Crew Battle

Puerto Rico:
DOOM!
Headshot
GatiGod
Excel_Zero


Tampa:
Manny
Rideae
Cashmere
BlitzKING


Manny > DOOM
Headshot > Manny
Headshot > Rideae
Cashmere > Headshot
Cashmere > GatiGod
Excel_Zero > Cashmere
BlitzKING > Excel_Zero

there's a lot of crews happening but this was interesting to watch

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Mk leo is here tonight.

http://www.twitch.tv/mdragon00

Plus Juddy said two japan tournies are tonight and Rizeo and Taheita, both Lucas mains, entered in one of them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This isn't a good analogy, I don't think. Lucina doesn't lack any kill options - she just gets more consistency instead. If you keep viewing Lucina vs Marth as a removal of options, of course you'd think it's crazy. But it's objectively not a removal.

What you're talking about is more akin to removing Bayo's huge punishes in exchange for smaller punishes that are more difficult to escape, or something of that nature. Not removing an option wholesale.

What is this notion of Marth being inconsistent? It doesn't make sense in this time, right now. Perhaps way back when it did, but.....like, for real, what more does the character have to do to prove his consistency? Like, what else he gotta do, win 5 supermajors? Also yes she has OBJECTIVELY less options, 1 vs Marth's 2 (sour + tipper) per move. You can argue subjectively, but objectively? There's less. Like, I'm gonna be real:

Marth as inconsistent is an excuse. If you as a player prefer Lucina in certain matchups (whether it is empirically better or not), go ahead and argue that, but Marth as inconsistent shouldn't even be an argument anymore.

 

[Shaya]

This isn't a good analogy, I don't think. Lucina doesn't lack any kill options - she just gets more consistency instead. If you keep viewing Lucina vs Marth as a removal of options, of course you'd think it's crazy. But it's objectively not a removal.

Seems like you're missing the point entirely or are purposely trying to keep things going fruitlessly by spinning a semantics argument.

Sheik's ftilt kills at like 200% with rage. We don't really talk about it as a kill option, although it is.
Just as nearly everything is a kill option in sudden death.

Thing is, sudden death conditions are 0% of competitive play.
Sheik not killing you until ftilt works is a minuscule amount of the time, 5% at most (at top level similar player skill, like never?).

How much longer are Marth's kill options relevant in comparison.
It's significant.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Hold it right there.
Yes, it's me. Guess you all are so happy to see me again.
I knew ZeRo's video was going to be trouble. This thread's cycle is as predictable as a For Glory's player rolling habits.
It's always like this:

• Something big Marcina related happens in the community;
• Someone tries to discuss the matter with only the best intent at heart;
• It always devolves to misinformation being thrown around like I'm watching politics;
• In the end, people defending Marth essentially call the Lucina apologists conceited bigots for thinking things they don't think. nobody learns anything, people get irritated, and this is why people sympathize with the idea that this discussion should be banned.

This isn't a problem just exclusive to this subject, though, nearly everything discussed here ends up like this, it's just very noticeable with the Marcina debate.
The amount of misinformation, hyperboles and borderline lies spread here about Marth and Lucina borders on insulting to the characters, and it's what makes discussing them largely unproductive.
We're in 2017, almost 3 years after the release of this game and almost 1 year into this same patch and I still find baffling a few of the things said regarding Lucina's KO power. Marth has the tipper, yes, but the way it is always presented here is not as part of a tool in Marth's arsenal - It's presented in a vacuum, as some strange kind of "trump card" to whatever might be said in credit towards Lucina's viability.
If any of you actually played either character for any extended periods of time, you'd know the state of the game is not as binary as this.

Regarding her KO power: Jab>Dancing Blade is true on fastfallers until KO%, and light fastfallers can be true comboed to death with this near the ledge as early as 75% without rage (No DI). Every stage of rage will chop off about 7% necessary for the KO%. This is no KO power to sneeze at. I've personally never even seen anyone KO anybody with either Marth or Lucina using Dancing Blade below 71% on a real match, and the lowest myself I ever got was 81% against a Mario (no rage, either, Duck Hunt).
Neutral Air is both very strong (13% damage fresh) and very powerful for knockback. Neutral Air's main purpose in Marcina's purpose is not even KOing outright: It's used to extend/start combos, stuff out aerial approaches, trap landings and trap ledge options. The knockback of the 1st hit can be used as a combo starter (Nair>FSmash, Nair>FSmash, Nair>USmash, Nair>DSmash, Nair>DB, Nair>Dolphin Slash, Nair>Jab>Grab, Nair>Jab>Dancing Blade, Nair>FTilt, Nair>UTilt are all options you can use out of it), which can be used to get a more direct kill, while Nair 2 is used to push people far out into the stage and reset their offstage situation - making them risk getting edgeguarded or trapped in the ledge again. Both Marth and Lucina's Nair 2 can be used for killing, both will kill very well (don't take credit away from Lucina's Nair 2, but then again, the uncivil manner this tends to be discussed means this is probably pointless to be said), but that's not really its main purpose it is used for.
Lucina's Up Air is extremely versatile. It can be pretty safe on shield, it's by far her best combo starter, deals a lot of damage (very close to 12% fresh, might as well be), and it kills. Very well. A falling Up Air into fullhop Up Air can KO lighweights on platforms being true on mid percents if they don't expect this followup. Other than that, it can still KO very well without a setup. I once caught a Fox's landing on Duck Hunt with Rage 1 and KO'd him at 110% near his shorthop height. I once read a Captain Falcon's DI on 3DS Battlefield and KO'd him at 100% with no rage. I once predicted a Sheik's jump from the ledge and KO'd her at 95% with Rage 2. It's a very strong tool in her arsenal for just about anything, and it does not KO badly in the slightest.
In ledge trapping situations, I often see Lucina mains getting more mileage out of her FSmash than I ever saw any Marth main getting. If you stand at a specific range away from the ledge (about Lucina's entire body lenght + her head), her FSmash will cover every single option except jump and Drop>Jump Back out of reaction. Jump you will need to predict and Fair/Uair/Nair the jump in advance and the second one you can charge FSmash instead of throwing no charge. This is especially useful for her, since she can dance around her ledge and make her intentions far more ambiguous, and always get an extremely good punish off if she lands her FSmash anywhere. Also, while practicing getting 2 frames with her FSmash on regular getups (using my tried and true method of "setting a CPU level to 1 and the timer to infinite), I'd actually notice her FSmash getting people at incredibly early percents: Like 65% on Falcon/no rage, and 77% on Fox with no rage with the FSmash staled 6 times in a row (Only dealing 10 damage). Not only that...
but her Back Air also is definitely not bad at getting KOs. Something Lucinas like to use a lot is RAR Bairs, since the very high base knockback allows her to get a lot of stage control per hit, and can lead to some very interesting conversions and chases (Bair>Fair, Bair>Uair). This can make Lucina be very mobile and dangerous, since her Back Air is her most damaging move aerial sands Dair spike (12% fresh), so she can get a very high amount of damage every time she gets this going. It can KO people on ledge (either via 2 frames or Jumps) even without rage at some respectable percents. I actually KO'd a Sheik once at 80% with Rage 2 Bair after reading a jump from ledge.
Up Tilt is a very underrated KO move from Lucina I hope I'll see more of. Just remember NAKAT once KO'd Void's Sheik at about 115% on ground level with her Up Tilt on Rage 2? That's not power you have the right to complain about. Used as an anti air while mostly fresh, it can KO people more reliably than you'd expect - lightweights always below 130% (no rage) and midweights 140%. This is one of the moves that gets the most mileage out of rage, since with even just Rage 1, Up Tilt basically becomes a "get off me" Anti Air slap that kills lightweights at 120% and Midweights at 130%. Recently on a smaller tournament, I actually caught a Cloud's stock on BF anti airiing him while I was staying at the lower platforms at 100% with Rage 2.

I consider less than 140% to be pretty reasonable percent, especially given that Marcina's Kill Throw can get people roughly at that percent with Rage 1 and how quickly they rack up damage per move.

I'm sorry, but I have to say this: These Marcina discussions happen the way they do because we have too many people who don't actually understand a damn about the characters making conclusions and opinating based only on matches they saw MKLeo say or stuff their friends must've told them. "Lucina can't kill" is the "Lucina has less range" of 2017 apparently. It's the next misconception we'll slowly have to debunk.
If Lucina had so much difficulty killing, I would not have analyzed over 20 matches of MKLeo, Pugwest and Mr. E and found out that the average KO% for the three of them is about 111%, and then analyzed whatever rarities of Lucina matches I could find and found out that her average KO% just so happens to sit at about 116%, a fairly negligible difference.

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm sorry, but I have to say this: These Marcina discussions happen the way they do because we have too many people who don't actually understand a damn about the characters making conclusions and opinating based only on matches they saw MKLeo say or stuff their friends must've told them. "Lucina can't kill" is the "Lucina has less range" of 2017 apparently. It's the next misconception we'll slowly have to debunk.
If Lucina had so much difficulty killing, I would not have analyzed over 20 matches of MKLeo, Pugwest and Mr. E and found out that the average KO% for the three of them is about 111%, and then analyzed whatever rarities of Lucina matches I could find and found out that her average KO% just so happens to sit at about 116%, a fairly negligible difference.

Is anyone actually saying that Lucina can't kill?

The point was that Marth's killing options are both more numerous and turn online earlier.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Is anyone actually saying that Lucina can't kill?

The point was that Marth's killing options are both more numerous and turn online earlier.

Also to add onto that: More of them kill FROM NEUTRAL than hers do. This is pretty big on a set of characters who are both neutral heavy.

This is probably the crux of importance to be honest. She has confirms, yes. They're solid, yes. But in terms of raw aerials/moves that are killing your opponent from neutral (whether it be anti air, air to air), Marth has her outnumbered, it's relevant and worth discussing IMO.

 

[my_T]

Lucinas' consistency in terms of knockback and damage per hit is nothing short of a pro for her.

Marths' tipper/sour spot mechanics is a gift and a curse. People need to stop acting like there are no cons to this design.

 

[FamilyTeam]

People are certainly phrasing their sentences in a way that allows it to be interpreted that she can't.
I think people overreact to Forward Tilt and get way too impressed. Yeah, Jab>FTilt is great and cool looking if you don't know how to DI towards Marth and mash airdodge, but if your sparring partner since childhood is a Marth main that you play with all the time, and you form a nice habits of observing patterns of positioning, you can tell when maybe you shouldn't approach and get FTilted.
I feel like most of these FTilt kills just stem from the exact same problem people have in this MU in general: Stop actually trying to challenge Marcina's range, it doesn't work.