Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Rizen]

And T lost to Tsu 2-0
Beat Diddy to lose to Rage Anubis
what a game

?

 

[Das Koopa]

bad hitbox rage bull**** dog is a good character

 

[|RK|]

bad hitbox rage bull**** dog is a good character

I genuinely think he's top tier. But I'll let y'all sleep...

(also Link is also a good character, but the 4BR probably won't reflect that)

EDIT: WAIT. TSU BEAT ABA? Who was it saying Mewtwo was Lucario's worst MU again?

 

[-Tornado-]

?

Yeah, sorry lol

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I genuinely think he's top tier. But I'll let y'all sleep...

(also so is Link, but the 4BR probably won't reflect that)

EDIT: WAIT. TSU BEAT ABA? Who was it saying Mewtwo was Lucario's worst MU again?

Lucario I can somewhat understand the reasoning behind, even if I disagree with it.

Link though? You'd have a lot of explaining to do to sell me on that one, which I am open to hearing so long as you're also open to potential criticism in return.

 

[Nobie]

I'm just wondering since this game is decently old now and all of this would have been worked out ages ago at this point, is there any reason why being a default or even large Mii Fighters would be beneficial?

I know the small miis are optimal with better movement speed, better jumping, and if memory serves correctly better frame data.

Do larger Mii fighters hit harder, have more range, or live longer?

Sadly I know hitting harder means significantly less when better frame data and more movespeed allows longer and more damaging combos. And even if larger miis are heavier worse air speed and worse jumps would probably make then die sooner anyways but.. You guys know more about this kind of stuff than I do.

Fun Mii Swordfighter facts:

The taller the Mii is, the longer the range on the sword itself (meaning more disjoint).

Mii Swordfighter's Falcon Kick Down B (whatever it's called) travels further the taller the Mii is. This makes it a more reliable kill option from a greater distance (there's a sweetspot on the early hitbox that is especially strong).

 

[|RK|]

Lucario I can somewhat understand the reasoning behind, even if I disagree with it.

Link though? You'd have a lot of explaining to do to sell me on that one, which I am open to hearing so long as you're also open to potential criticism in return.

Lol, I edited my post. I was caught up in the hype, and I meant to say that Link is also a good character. Not top tier haha :x

 

[Das Koopa]

https://clips.twitch.tv/gooshigaming/InexpensiveSkunkPraiseIt

****

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

As an olimar player:

Pikmin why
Aura why
;-; I like tsu but shuton BibleThump

 

[blackghost]

If you are gonna call location a high tier you need to provide some evidence for that claim.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

For the list of accidental kill moves, Shulk's up tilt can count since it kills early. If you in add smash art it can kill earlier.

 

[Gunla]

A bit late, but here's a Frostbite 2017/locals pre-Frostbite thread:
https://smashboards.com/threads/the-frostbite-2017-discussion-thread.445848/

 

[Aaron1997]

Some > KEN 2-1

With this included
https://clips.twitch.tv/gooshigaming/PowerfulMooseMingLee

 

[Aaron1997]

Smashfield Weekly 78 (107 entrants)

1. Tsu-
2. Shuton
3. Some
4. KEN
5. Kameme
5. Komorikiri
7. Nero
7. Abadango
9. Advo
9. T
9. Smasher1001
9.SlamSHADY
13. Nebula
13. taranito
13. Nom
13. Zinoto (Lost to T and Abadango)

DQ's
MKleo
Ryuga

 

[TDK]

Smashfield Weekly 78 (107 entrants)

1.
2.
3. Some
4. KEN
5. Kameme
5. Komorikiri
7. Nero
7. Abadango
9. Advo
9. T
9. Smasher1001
9.SlamSHADY
13. Nebula
13. taranito
13. Nom
13. Zinoto (Lost to T and Abadango)

DQ's
MKleo
Ryuga

...

Cheater.

To give this post actual substance, Lucario's high Aura Bair is a top 3 move in the game.

 

[L9999]

https://clips.twitch.tv/gooshigaming/InexpensiveSkunkPraiseIt

****

I love how Tsu and Shuton are so casual about it.

Smashfield Weekly 78 (107 entrants)

1.
2.
3. Some
4. KEN
5. Kameme
5. Komorikiri
7. Nero
7. Abadango
9. Advo
9. T
9. Smasher1001
9.SlamSHADY
13. Nebula
13. taranito
13. Nom
13. Zinoto (Lost to T and Abadango)

DQ's
MKleo
Ryuga

Well, Some got past a bad MU against KEN of all people and T exceeded my expectations. Does anyone knows who Taranito had to play?

 

[Das Koopa]

Smashfield Weekly #78 (February 23rd) (Midwest) (107 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st:

tsu
2nd:

Shuton
3rd:

Some
4th:

KEN
5th:

2GG | komorikiri
5th:

DNG | Kameme ,
7th:

LG | Abadango ,
7th:

Nero
9th:

T
9th:

SlamSHADY
9th:

Advo ,
9th:

smasher1001 ,
13th:

Zinoto
13th:

taranito
13th:

Nom
13th:

Nebula

 

[Y2Kay]

Some > KEN 2-1

With this included
https://clips.twitch.tv/gooshigaming/PowerfulMooseMingLee

Why does Some make this match up look so easy T___T

 

[Red Stache]

https://clips.twitch.tv/gooshigaming/InexpensiveSkunkPraiseIt

I lurk a lot, so I hope I'm not too far off base looking at this.

I'm not sure what Shuton was thinking.
Shuton jumps TOWARDS Lucario, and using Pikmin Throw...

I mean why?
Shuton has the stock lead (and then he had the percent lead when stocks were even.)
Why didn't he just slow down and wait for Tsu to come to him or make mistakes? Olimar has Pikmin to help him camp it out.
There was no reason for Shuton to play aggressively in that situation.

And no surprise, that he runs headlong into Lucario's smash attack. It's not like he was standing far away and Lucario then managed to accidentally tag Olimar with range-increased aura; where it probably be chalked up "jank", or Shuton not knowing the aura ranges/matchup.
But, he runs right at him. With a move that shouldn't be used when that close to the opponent...
Should've played much more defensibly against Tsu.
There was no reason he should have been taking such risks in that situation, especially against Lucario.

Maybe I'm missing something or misunderstanding, but that is what I see in this situation.
I'm also not trying to take away any praise from either player either. Both Tsu and Shuton were playing great.

 

[T4ylor]

Y2Kay Do most Greninja think it's bad? Saw that both KEN and Some think it's potentially even. Perhaps it's just hard to get the play style down?

Red Stache Shuton is the hype Olimar, he doesn't camp out match ups from what I've seen. He's really aggressive for someone with his character.

 

[Floor]

Not exactly pertinent to the topic of the thread, but why was MkLeo DQ'd? and ryuga for that matter

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

The person who talked in stream chat for the GooshiGaming twitch account said that apparantly MK Leo got held up at immigration. So he was not able to make it.

They posted that before the tourney started and when friendlies were on the stream. Since he was not on stream, something must of came up or he arrived late. I have no clue beyond what the streamer said in twitch chat.

 

[BunbUn129]

Bolded is a topic that I've been mulling over for a while. "Accidental" kills are the kind of thing that can catapult characters up tier lists, and it's instructive to think about which Smash 4 characters this applies to. Obviously, when you get your opponent to high percent, you start looking for an opportunity to land the KO strike, whether through strings, confirms, edge guards, or whatever else. Characters that are "good at killing" make it more dangerous to be at high percents against them, but they often do so in different ways.

The simplest kill option for most characters is the Smash attack, but nearly all of them are punishable on block, to say nothing of whiffs. You'd like to be able to throw out Smash attacks in the neutral, but that's gonna get you kicked in the teeth (for most characters, I'll talk more about the most obvious exception in a moment). If you have to rely on stray Smash attacks to take stocks, your character is not good at killing. So what's next?

50/50s, traps, and kill confirms off of low commitment moves are more reliable than Smashes. Grab confirms are strong for beating shield, but it's worth mentioning that most grabs have a punishable amount of cooldown. Kill throws are similar, often requiring a committal grab and/or high percent on the opponent. Furthermore, your opponent must be within certain percent ranges, or at a certain position on the stage, or be hit with exactly the right hitbox of the setup move, or perhaps a combination of all three. This can be a particular problem if the second half of the kill is very committal, like a Smash attack. If you are just a hair too slow, or you miss your setup slightly, you have to be aware of it, lest you miss the follow-up and eat a punish. The best confirms in the game have lenient windows to execute and do not require finicky hitboxes. (Diddy's D-tilt is a good example. The tilt is fast, non-committal, and confirms into multiple moves. Note that U-Smash does not always connect fully, though, and often U-tilt is the safest option, killing much later.) Reliable, lenient kill confirms are common across the top tier. I perceive Fox as kind of an oddball here, in that a lot of his confirms/traps have tight windows requiring precise hitboxes, but he has a bunch of them, and his moves are universally quick enough that you can never be totally ready for which one he'll try to hit you with.

The third way to be good at killing is through stray hits off of safe moves, and I think this is the rarest variety of dangerous character: the "accidental" killer. To be in this category, a character has to have a fast, low cooldown, versatile, safe move that's a good option in neutral but also starts killing at early percents, relatively speaking. Furthermore, that move can't be the character's only powerful neutral option, or else the opponent will always be on the lookout for it. The simplicity of the accidental kill move is what makes it dangerous: there are no execution concerns, no worries about following DI, and no finicky conditions or windows. Essentially, you skip the advantage/punish state. You play the neutral as normal, and then, on occasion: "Oh, look, I killed them. How about that?" Especially over a long tournament in a high-stress environment, that ease of use is enormous. I said that I think that few characters have this luxury, so let's make a list:

• Mario's U-Smash: The biggest exception to the "can't throw out Smashes" rule. Fast, safe, and very dangerous.
• Marth's tipper F-tilt and aerials: The aerials don't kill obscenely early, but the F-tilt does. A fast, long range move that can start killing alarmingly early, especially near the edge. F-tilt is also notable for being a low-commitment second half of another Marth kill setup, in which it follows from jab. Absurd button.
• Corrin's Lance: Fast, safe, and long-ranged. I think it's harder to kill people out of the blue with because of how much Corrin uses it, and thus how expected it is, but it still catches opponents frequently.
• Robin's Levin aerials: a bit wonky, since they're not always available, so they're not the sort of always-looming threat as others on this list, but they hit like a truck. Not incredible in the speed department.
• Funnily enough, Ganon's U-air, N-air, and B-air: All of Ganon's kills are going to be random kills, but his aerials are actually really good, in terms of range, speed, and kill power. This example is particularly noteworthy, since even the rare trait of "accidental" neutral kills doesn't guarantee a good character.
• Mewtwo's F-air: The one i'm most familiar with. Frame 6, good combo move at early percents, starts killing early, does 13% (God only knows why). Nonsense move.
• Mac's F-tilt: Frame 4, first hit tramples, insane option. Primarily works on the ground, but that's where Mac wants to be anyway.
• Luma: Gets very silly with rage, turns normal moves into must-dodge monsters. Luma is a collection of random kills, but you can also get rid of it, which has started to hurt Rosalina at top level.
• Cloud's U-air: Often stales, and it was nerfed, but still monstrous, particularly for how hard it is to even trade with.
• A lot of Lucario's moves, once he has enough aura, but he doesn't have a lot of incredibly fast options.

I'd like to see what other moves the thread thinks qualify for this status. From the above list, the really threatening characters are Cloud, Rosalina, Mario, Marth, and Mewtwo, all of whom have strong, varied neutrals to surround their random kill move, making it even harder to avoid, and their moves are all quite fast. Maybe Bayo's B-air belongs here, or DK's, but they don't kill super early, to my knowledge. Maybe I'm remembering wrongly. Sheik is antithesis of this kind of character. She has a variety of ways to kill, but she almost never gets "random" KOs, which is part of why she's not as common at lower levels of play. Even her Smash attacks aren't that strong, tipper U-smash aside, so she has no beginner-friendly way to kill.

From a game design perspective, I'd also like to hear what we think of these moves. Do we like them? Do we hate them? Would we be okay with buffing a lower-tier character's move into one of these options? That's basically what happened with Marth and Mewtwo (Mewtwo's F-air was already good, but made better with a bigger hitbox). Would these options be more acceptable without Rage in the equation? I kinda get the sense that these options are unpopular. We've heard a lot of griping about Mario's U-Smash being dumb. Nobody likes Luma. And when the devs want to make a character better at killing, they often go for grab confirms, which I find sensible. It's a very fine line to walk when giving a character "accidental" kill moves -- they can get very stupid very quickly. I love Mewtwo's F-air, but it's a silly move (13%!). Should killing be hard and/or risky for everyone, or is it okay for some characters to have supercharged kill buttons?

Surprised you forgot MK's f smash.

 

[Das Koopa]

Frostbite predictions.

Spoiler: Pool A

A1: Captain Zack > Kirihara (ZD 3rd)
A2: VoiD > SuperGirlKels (Ksev 3rd)
A3: Kameme > Zinoto (Zephyr 3rd)
A4: WaDi > Ranai (Mystearica 3rd)

Spoiler: Pool B

B1: ZeRo > IcyMist (Some 3rd)
B2: Fatality > Ned (DarkAura 3rd)
B3: Rich Brown > Shuton (Ozone 3rd)
B4: KEN > NAKAT (Nero 3rd)

Spoiler: Pool C

C1: komorikiri > DarkShad (Blacktwins 3rd)
C2: Mr. E > Abadango (Black Yoshi 3rd)
C3: Ally > Seagull Joe (T 3rd)
C4: Ryuga > Dabuz (Zage 3rd)

Spoiler: Pool D

D1: MKLeo > Dark Wizzy (taranito 3rd)
D2: Tweek > tsu (Xane 3rd)
D3: Salem > Rayquaza07 (Chrim Foish 3rd)
D4: Nairo > LOE1 (MVD 3rd)

Upset predictions:

Seagull Joe > T
LOE1 > MVD
Dark Wizzy > taranito
WaDi > Ranai
Mr. E > Abadango
Rich Brown > Shuton
Fatality > Ned
Zage > Myran
Chrim Foish > Colinies
DarkAura > Mister Eric
Black Yoshi > JJROCKETS

-Sonic is an advantageous MU against Link and Seagull has been grinding Link exp against Scizor in preparation for the set. I don't think he'll go in as dumbfounded as Zinoto was, where Zinoto looked totally lost. Not mentioned often, but a Midwest Link main (Slenderman) came close to beating Zinoto at Midwest Mayhem (SoCal Invasion, I think?) a while back.

-LOE1 is a good Luigi and the match-up is scary enough that even ZeRo opts for Sheik against players well below his skill level like ConCon and Elegant. MVD is really inconsistent and has a tendency on getting upset easy.

-No idea how Wizzy is being underrated here. He's really good and I think he'd have a good chance of even making it out of his pool if his opponent wasn't Leo, who uses 2 strong anti-Mario characters and has ten sets worth of Ally experience. I think he'll beat Ness, though afaik his region of New York doesn't have a lot of good Ness players and taranito is probably Japan's best. Could go either way, but I think Wizzy should be the favorite.

-Ranai has a Mewtwo problem, but I think this is more volatile than a simple "WaDi blocks Ranai" conclusion. Rich Brown may have come totally prepared at GENESIS because he gets to train with the best NA Villager and the second best Villager in the world (Aarvark). MD/VA is lower-mid in terms of region skill and doesn't high a high level Villager, so it's possible WaDi won't be ready - but Ranai looks lost against Aba/Rich. It's possible Ranai is taking time to grind the MU with Aba since he knows it's a risky set.

I'm calling the upset but I desperately hope this is streamed since it's one of the most unpredictable sets that's slated and could easily go either way.

-I can't stop thinking about how absolutely decimated Abadango was at G4 during crews by Mr. E. No real reason other than that to call for an upset.

-Rich Brown lives in OliFornia. Shuton might be on a different level but after him beating Ranai I'm not confident Shuton can pull it off.

 

[Bowserboy3]

https://clips.twitch.tv/gooshigaming/InexpensiveSkunkPraiseIt

****

This clip confuses me on so many levels.

Firstly, 0 to 44% in merely 3 moves. I will also point out this is on a relatively mobile character, not somebody like Ganondorf or Dedede.

Secondly, said 44% is actually kill percent.

Finally, the Fsmash that killed, that wasn't even the sweetspot hit; it was the damn late hit (which does less damage and knockback)! You can see the delay after Lucario uses the move and Olimar sort of falls into the late hit.

I lowkey love this character (being one of my favourite Pokémon helps), but dang, exchanges like this really play with my emotions. I don't know whether to be hype, excited, laughing, sad, salty, angry...

 

[Das Koopa]

It's true that Shuton sort of jumped into it but what really infuriates me is that absurd hitbox. It just lasts forever lol.

 

[ARGHETH]

Finally, the Fsmash that killed, that wasn't even the sweetspot hit; it was the damn late hit (which does less damage and knockback)! You can see the delay after Lucario uses the move and Olimar sort of falls into the late hit.

Actually, I think that was the strong hit, but it hit the red pikmin, which extended it long enough for Olimar to fall into it. Testing on my 3ds, 100% Lucario does 21% to 40% Olimar, same as in the clip (44%-65%).

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm excited for tomorrow; a Lucas main from the Lucas discord by the name of person is in the same bracket Mkleo has to fight him round 2 if he wins his first match. He's probably guaranteed to be on stream. I hope it will be an upset.

 

[NairWizard]

Lucario: the only character in the history of Smash with bad hitboxes, frame data, and mobility specs but the ability to beat any top or high tier character played at even skill levels.

 

[Das Koopa]

By "bad hitbox" I mean badly designed

Things like Dair > Force Palm, random and stupid Extreme Speed kills, and lingering/enormous hitboxes on his Smash attacks all make him incredibly powerful because his hitboxes are so huge. If I had to call any character "badly designed" it'd probably be Lucario because he's basically a grappler on max with better mobility/recovery and an extremely dangerous projectle with probably the most threatening set of moves of any character in the game when he breaks 80-100%. He becomes a deadly glass cannon that can shred stocks.

You'll notice a lot of tsu's wins are two stocks. He'll clutch the first stock out at high %, the opponent can't return the stock quickly enough, so tsu will just get a grab and absolutely destroy you. All tacked on damage is 20-30% and within 2 exchange he can kill you with Aura Spher > Upsmash, Bair at the ledge, random dumb Smash attack like the one in the clip, etc.

Lucario is fun to watch because he's a walking hailfire of missiles but it's also really frustrating to basically watch a player's neutral exchanges used against him. Once Lucario hits 100-120% and your hits aren't killing him, you're just feeding his Aura/Rage machine and he's only going to hit you harder. It's like watch annoying grappler characters like DK/Bowser except those characters are way more flawed due to their appropriate drawbacks in exchange for stringent % kill confirms off of grabs.

I used to think Lucario was overrated but he's probably a solid upper tier/lower high tier character. Consistency will probably remain an issue since you can just die at high % and waste your opportunities but I feel like that's still more reliable than Donkey Kong or Bowser.

 

[BSP]

@Kung Fu Treachery Mario's Usmash is not safe. You'll see him get dash grabbed all the time for hitting shields with it at higher levels of play.

It's still really good, but let's leave "safe" for things that actually are, like Ganon's Usmash for the most part.

 

[ARISTOS]

Lucario's fsmash hitbox got extended by the Pikmin, which is why it lasted so long

 

[|RK|]

@Kung Fu Treachery Mario's Usmash is not safe. You'll see him get dash grabbed all the time for hitting shields with it at higher levels of play.

It's still really good, but let's leave "safe" for things that actually are, like Ganon's Usmash for the most part.

Fun fact - Mario's usmash and Kirby's usmash have similar endlag. Thing about Mario's usmash is that it comes out so quickly that by the point many people realize it has come out, it's already well into its recovery. So it's less punishable because of that.

I think at upper levels of play, people just predict it more. But the move can be harder to punish than the numbers suggest sometimes.

 

[verbatim]

abadango finally beats one of his demons, eliminates Zinoto at 13th 2-1

Anyone who was there knows what character Abadango played? I would guess MK but he seems to play a different character everytime he runs into Zinoto or ZeRo.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Anyone who was there knows what character Abadango played? I would guess MK but he seems to play a different character everytime he runs into Zinoto or ZeRo.

I think he was using Mewtwo against Zinoto.

 

[Illuminose]

I lurk a lot, so I hope I'm not too far off base looking at this.

I'm not sure what Shuton was thinking.
Shuton jumps TOWARDS Lucario, and using Pikmin Throw...

I mean why?
Shuton has the stock lead (and then he had the percent lead when stocks were even.)
Why didn't he just slow down and wait for Tsu to come to him or make mistakes? Olimar has Pikmin to help him camp it out.
There was no reason for Shuton to play aggressively in that situation.

And no surprise, that he runs headlong into Lucario's smash attack. It's not like he was standing far away and Lucario then managed to accidentally tag Olimar with range-increased aura; where it probably be chalked up "jank", or Shuton not knowing the aura ranges/matchup.
But, he runs right at him. With a move that shouldn't be used when that close to the opponent...
Should've played much more defensibly against Tsu.
There was no reason he should have been taking such risks in that situation, especially against Lucario.

Maybe I'm missing something or misunderstanding, but that is what I see in this situation.
I'm also not trying to take away any praise from either player either. Both Tsu and Shuton were playing great.

if you actually watch shuton, you'll see that he does short hop pikmin toss a lot. it's good because when you get the pikmin stuck on them, it makes it easier to hit them (in many cases that is get a grab) and you get more damage because they can't get the pikmin off them until after they escape your pressure. if it's a purple then it sets up a tech chase, which is another thing shuton does a lot but isn't relevant in this case obviously. it's also normally quite safe and a go-to way to start up pressure, which shuton wanted to do because he had to get a kill in this situation. he also probably did not suspect the fsmash was coming (big read by tsu-) and even if he did would not have accounted for the hitlag of the pikmin extending the hitbox, most likely. he also probably did not expect to die. tsu- basically threw out a random fsmash in that situation where nothing else would have killed shuton. i do agree that shuton should have played more defensively, but hindsight is 20/20. shuton's play was only bad because tsu- called it out, in many other possible scenarios it was an effective way to start pressure and get toward the stock before lucario got too out of control.

 

[teddystalin]

Anyone who was there knows what character Abadango played? I would guess MK but he seems to play a different character everytime he runs into Zinoto or ZeRo.

Aba used MK against Zinoto, and Komo used Cloud against Aba and KEN. Those were apparently the only off-stream characters from the top 8.

 

[Rizen]

's Utilt and ground upB (frame 8) come out 1 frame sooner than Mario's Usmash (9) and Link's Usmash comes out frame 10. InB4 "all those have terrible endlag": Link's Utilt FAFs 4 frames earlier than Mario's Usmash.

The reason I'm bringing this up is while has a good Usmash, what really sells it is his amazing mid-range burst game. Mario can play slightly outside the opponent's reach and burst in with any number of good options like Bair, dash grab, lingering DA for ledges and Usmash that all cover different areas of gameplay. Fireballs can add confusion, cape discourages projectile zoning and the threat of good Uair strings off grab make shielding dangerous. How can you prepare for all that? You really can't without some kind of read. If you're going to praise Mario, praise his entire burst mobility game.

 

[verbatim]

Aba used MK against Zinoto, and Komo used Cloud against Aba and KEN. Those were apparently the only off-stream characters from the top 8.

Dang, KEN beating the second best Sonic and one of the best Cloud's in the world w/ Sonic is a pretty big feat, even in bo3.

 

[FullMoon]

As someone who lives in a region where one of the best players around uses Sonic, I want Some to teach me his secrets.