Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[my_T]

I'm not in this debate but I just want to remind everybody that Komo took a set off of Tweeks cloud with Lucina

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If you played Lucina for more than a minute you'd know you're severly underrrating her her. Her pokes do the same thing and are as safe; sheild stun is same - 1 frame iirc. Jab > fsmash is as true with Lucina as it is Marth (pretty sure neither are true though). The only really kill option Lucina has that is particularly weaker is jab > ftilt, which kills as Marth as high percents with rage (i.e. not amazing). Lucina has mad confirms of aerials and her neutral pokes lead to the same things. Lucina does have roughly 40% combos (she has 0-death combos tbh but that's platform stuff that i wont get into). Falling up air and jab and uptilt lead into nasty 40% combos or more dependent on stage and opponent's character.

"She doesn't get to kill you at 60% because she read your ledge getup"
1. Fsmash or nair 1 > fsmash.
2. A little higher than 60% and we got rage bair

I never said ANYTHING about shield safety, I said how safely Marth converts into a stock. How many times do I have to say this? Go reread everything that I posted if you don't believe me.
Marth's jab > f tilt doesn't need rage to kill at 90, and how early it kills isn't the point. What makes it good is that its unpunishable on block and can be thrown out pretty much whenever you want. Lucina's nair 1 is extremely telegraphed and for I think the 5th time now, is not safe.
If were talking about "optimal" combos than lets take a look at the dozens of much less situational 0 - deaths that Mewtwo can pull off, or his infinite.

1. Neither of those things are safe on shield, because of how telegraphed nair 1 is you can usually just powershield it
2. A little bit of rage on Mewtwo and you can make it 40%, what's your point?

 

[Nobie]

The only reasons past games regions have had different tier lists were as follows:

- They had a completely different version of the game
- They didn't travel regularly at all, so each region was its own little bubble
- The internet didn't wasn't widespread and common yet, so people couldn't really see information from non-local areas that well
- Wi/Fi battles didn't exist or sucked

Smash 4 has none of these things. It's extremely global and should be treated as such.

You can't say that different regions don't or shouldn't produce different tier lists when different regions literally produce different meta environments.

Yes, nationals/super nationals are when everyone gets together, but in a way they're their own meta, much like how a round robin is a different set of parameters.

Smash 4 has a very robust mid tier, and depending on your region what it takes to cut through the throngs of players will differ depending on circumstances that are beyond logic. There will be some mainstays, your Clouds and Diddy Kongs, but take New York, for example. Not only is one of the best players a Wii Fit Trainer and another a Pac-Man, but there's also an unusually high concentration of skilled Kirby players. It shapes how people play and learn, even when they have ready access to other regions' streams, because what it takes to win in NY is going to differ from what it takes to win in Florida.

Different players can also influence their regions by playing the same character differently. You'll sometimes see a player from Region A think they have a handle on a certain matchup due to their experience fighting that character, but they actually mainly have experience fighting a specific flavor of that character. Key example: Ranai has I believe a winning record against Abadango, but still lost to Rich Brown.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can we stay on the subject on how different regions produce different metagame environments? I find that to be interesting. I know Michigan has a Smash scene, what about certain regions in the EU?
I'm not getting into the Marth vs. Lucina debate...way too close to flame bait for me.
On an off topic note watching the unboxing of the Nintendo Switch from Nintendo Minute.

 

[Floor]

I never said ANYTHING about shield safety, I said how safely Marth converts into a stock. How many times do I have to say this? Go reread everything that I posted if you don't believe me.
Marth's jab > f tilt doesn't need rage to kill at 90, and how early it kills isn't the point. What makes it good is that its unpunishable on block and can be thrown out pretty much whenever you want. Lucina's nair 1 is extremely telegraphed and for I think the 5th time now, is not safe.
If were talking about "optimal" combos than lets take a look at the dozens of much less situational 0 - deaths that Mewtwo can pull off, or his infinite.

1. Neither of those things are safe on shield, because of how telegraphed nair 1 is you can usually just powershield it
2. A little bit of rage on Mewtwo and you can make it 40%, what's your point?

Not really telegraphed if you play her like she's supposed to be played and do empty jumps, tomohawks, mixups, full hop fair, ect. Nair 1 is something you strike with when the time is right. Just cause she's in the air at nair range doesn't mean she's going for it.

"... if you read a getup option"
>discredits fsmash and nair for a punish on reads.
??? the point of a read is that you predict what option they chose and capitalize on their vulnerability. Not like you can be on ledge 1 frame and next frame by standing in shield, there's some vulnerability there and it's called a read.

Lost me on how Marth's kills are safer when Lucina's do the same thing after one or two more hits. Lucina has just about every kill option Marth has and it's just as true basically.

My point has long since been lost though and nothing is getting done; our ears are both shut and we've scared away others. This is precisely why Lucina can never be discussed anywhere and it's pretty irritating. As for me, I'm going to continue trusting ZeRo and Tweek's judgement and continue my day having a different yet valid opinion. I've spent too long here when I need to be studying for my exam tomorrow anyway so don't expect a reply tonight if at all

 

[Y2Kay]

I personally keep Lucina right next to . Both are solid swordsmen that can place well when picked, but there are generally better choices.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

How do you feel about dark pit in comparison to pit? Roughly about the same or is one better than the other?

 

[Floor]

An actual important update. Sinnyboo is saying listmakers have instructed tierlist 3 makers to not include Dark Pit and Lucina
........what the heck?
?????

Not sure how I feel about this...

 

[TDK]

Putting Lucina next to Pit on a tier list is insulting to the former.

I put Lucina right next to myself, and within the top 15, if mostly based on potential until she gets more results (They are picking up though)

 

[ARGHETH]

An actual important update. Sinnyboo is saying listmakers have instructed tierlist 3 makers to not include Dark Pit and Lucina
........what the heck?
?????

Not sure how I feel about this...

I figure it's because it's due to the lack of results resulting from being similar to their counterparts meaning that most people won't really know what to do with them. Dark Pit gets put next to Pit usually anyways, while Lucina gets put anywhere from low to high tier because people have no idea how to rank her.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

An actual important update. Sinnyboo is saying listmakers have instructed tierlist 3 makers to not include Dark Pit and Lucina
........what the heck?
?????

Not sure how I feel about this...

Not doubting you but where did you hear this? Source?

 

[Floor]

Not doubting you but where did you hear this? Source?

https://twitter.com/Sinnyboo242/status/834587572491911168

Rip his views on Lucina

 

[Lord Dio]

An actual important update. Sinnyboo is saying listmakers have instructed tierlist 3 makers to not include Dark Pit and Lucina
........what the heck?
?????

Not sure how I feel about this...

I could see this being done with Dark Pit, but lucina? Really?
How on this green earth can people have such massive hate for clones?
But yeah please make sure this is real.

 

[JB333]

The Japanese scene for Super Smash Flash 2 is newer than that of the American/European scene and there isn't quite as much interaction between the English and Japanese scenes as there is in Sm4sh. With Sm4sh, the scenes for the Americas, Europe and Japan all started at about the same time with the exception of the Japanese version of Smash 3DS coming out about a month earlier than in America. Characters tend to get different results in different regions for sure, but in this game we have the resources and sheer community results to have a somewhat acceptable global tier list compared to other Smash games.



Voting's already started I think, I believe I saw someone post their tier list for the 4BR on Twitter a few days ago.

EDIT: Marcbri's: https://twitter.com/Marcbri/status/832266692084559872
Sinnyboo's: https://twitter.com/Sinnyboo242/status/833904033068888064

Both of these lists are okay but Marcbri putting Lucario in top 15 is kind of ridiculous. Lucario is definitely a character to watch out for because of his Aura/rage mechanic, but it takes more than the occasional jank kill to be above Meta Knight and Villager.

 

[Y2Kay]

Putting Lucina next to Pit on a tier list is insulting to the former.

I put Lucina right next to myself, and within the top 15, if mostly based on potential until she gets more results (They are picking up though)

I do have a high opinion of all 3 of these characters. I have them grouped up next to them around the 15th-ish spot

 

[Lord Dio]

Okay, went back and looked at both the two that have been put on twitter so far.
Sinnyboo excludes DP and Lucina, but includes Doc.
Marcbri includes Lucina and Doc but not DP.
Also both have Bowser Jr incredibly low. Though Marcbri does have ganon breaking out of bottom 5 and becoming 7th worst.
Both have things that I would call questionable (one has lucario in top 15 and Ike being I think it was low tier, the other has Greninja and Pikachu in top 15).

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Not really telegraphed if you play her like she's supposed to be played and do empty jumps, tomohawks, mixups, full hop fair, ect. Nair 1 is something you strike with when the time is right. Just cause she's in the air at nair range doesn't mean she's going for it.

"... if you read a getup option"
>discredits fsmash and nair for a punish on reads.
??? the point of a read is that you predict what option they chose and capitalize on their vulnerability. Not like you can be on ledge 1 frame and next frame by standing in shield, there's some vulnerability there and it's called a read.

Lost me on how Marth's kills are safer when Lucina's do the same thing after one or two more hits. Lucina has just about every kill option Marth has and it's just as true basically.

My point has long since been lost though and nothing is getting done; our ears are both shut and we've scared away others. This is precisely why Lucina can never be discussed anywhere and it's pretty irritating. As for me, I'm going to continue trusting ZeRo and Tweek's judgement and continue my day having a different yet valid opinion. I've spent too long here when I need to be studying for my exam tomorrow anyway so don't expect a reply tonight if at all

Putting faith in the same man who said Ryu and Rosalina were the best characters is a bad idea. His current tier list is also fairly outdated, didn't it have Marth/lucina in only mid tier or something?

Nair 1 > fsmash takes at least 20 frames to set up + the 7 frames for nair 1 to come out. In that time most players who know the matchup will either roll behind you, or just hang on the ledge. If they roll behind you the most you can do is back air, Mewtwo is going to nair > disable you and get a stock at 60%. Unlike Lucina, Mewtwo is close enough to spike you for hanging onto the ledge.
Also, Mewtwo can use his ledge options on reaction, he doesn't need to get a read on a neutral getup for a 60% kill

Okay, went back and looked at both the two that have been put on twitter so far.
Sinnyboo excludes DP and Lucina, but includes Doc.
Marcbri includes Lucina and Doc but not DP.
Also both have Bowser Jr incredibly low. Though Marcbri does have ganon breaking out of bottom 5 and becoming 7th worst.
Both have things that I would call questionable (one has lucario in top 15 and Ike being I think it was low tier, the other has Greninja and Pikachu in top 15).

The pits are understandable, but Marth/Lucina, Mario/Doc is stupid

 

[Deleted member]

I don't have a very high opinion of Ike, but the idea of him being low tier is pretty ridiculous. Dunno where that stigma came from.

 

[Floor]

TheGoodGuava top tier #13 iirc.
Okay then just fsmash

 

[TheGoodGuava]

TheGoodGuava top tier #13 iirc.
Okay then just fsmash

thats better, still doesn't mean lucinas top 10 though

 

[L9999]

Okay, went back and looked at both the two that have been put on twitter so far.
Sinnyboo excludes DP and Lucina, but includes Doc.
Marcbri includes Lucina and Doc but not DP.
Also both have Bowser Jr incredibly low. Though Marcbri does have ganon breaking out of bottom 5 and becoming 7th worst.
Both have things that I would call questionable (one has lucario in top 15 and Ike being I think it was low tier, the other has Greninja and Pikachu in top 15).

Bowser Jr is trash so I don't see what's wrong.

 

[Lord Dio]

I don't have a very high opinion of Ike, but the idea of him being low tier is pretty ridiculous. Dunno where that stigma came from.

Probably the same place that told him to give Puff her own tier at the very bottom......

Bowser Jr is trash so I don't see what's wrong.

2nd worst in the game kind of trash though? He's not a good character, but 2nd worst in the game feels like a stretch.

 

[Floor]

https://twitter.com/Illusion_SSB/status/834605721073381376

Lucina and Dark pit now counted separately..... as optional characters? Weird

 

[Jaguar360]

http://xenozero.challonge.com/x50
Xeno50 (New York, 76 entrants)
1. Dill
2. NickC
3. Ralphie
4. Frozen
5. Venia
5. Gen
7. Raptor
7. Riz

Notables outside of top 8:
9. John Numbers
9. Dekillsage
9. Wraith
13. Arhungry

Ralphie, Gen and Riz made awesome runs today. This Xeno had a higher-than-average entry count with some good talent, so I thought I'd mention it.

 

[Lord Dio]

https://twitter.com/Illusion_SSB/status/834605721073381376

Lucina and Dark pit now counted separately..... as optional characters? Weird

Illusion's tier list is also up now. Feels very similar to the v2 list but with a couple characters in each tier switched around and I think some dropping.
What I find noteworthy so far is how both Marcbri and Illusion have Lucina exactly 9 spots apart from Marth.
Better than 17 I suppose.

 

[The-Technique]

I don't have a very high opinion of Ike, but the idea of him being low tier is pretty ridiculous. Dunno where that stigma came from.

probably the same crowd that sleeps on robin because she runs slow on the ground

Ike has a win condition and its landing grabs (his grab is seriously one of the best in the game)

 

[AusJJV]

Kinda unrelated yet related at the same time. I'm a bit of a lurker of this thread but I'll throw in my opinion.

The lists have been mixed from 2 thinking Lucas is slightly better than Ness, to Ness being much higher than Lucas in Illusion's tier list.

Honestly, Ness had a very simple design, punish game, and overall doesn't have much going for him until FOW, Shaky, and co. all manage to bring his results back up, so far we haven't seen much of this (if anything, Shaky's performed better and gone to more tournaments, but I'd like to see how FOW goes at Civil War, and the future in general). S1 had a decent performance at BEAST 7, losing to iStudying game 5, and placing 5th, but otherwise, there hasn't been much results for Ness. But the results have gone up on a small rise, which is something to take notice to, just not for this current tier list (v3.0).

On the other hand, we have Lucas, a character who is starting to me used efficiently by a lot of players, me included. I'll never forget the days when I'd d-throw into u-tilt. Now footstools feel a lot more easier, and a lot of players feel more confident in doing them. This is very important. Lucas' results are still kinda minimal, although we do have Taiheita still doing a small amount of work and to me, Kodystri seems to be doing the most for the character right now. Lucas still has some developing to do as a character, and I take Reflex's word for it. A few pages back, there was a discussion on his opinion of punish-heavy characters being stronger in the future. Lucas (imo) fits into this category, and Ness doesn't. This is what separates them, and what makes Lucas look like a better future in the metagame (also Lucas does way better against swordies than Ness, but they're not the only characters in the game, just a little fact, y'know.)

But my final opinion, Ness is still better at the moment, and I expect the 17 place gap between the two to significantly shrink in this new tier list, I'd almost describe it as inevitable, with Ness on the downfall, and Lucas on the rise. These are two characters who play very differently, but i like to compare 'em because they're my two most played characters.

Anyways, I'll go back to lurking, I guess. If you've got any questions or wanna discuss what I said, feel free to do so.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ah, this topic again. I really like to talk about Marth and Lucina, but I generally do not like to debate about it as much for a variety of reasons, but I'll still give my two cents on the matter.

Both will play the same poking game and will have about the same level of safety overall, none really *need* to commit and both keep opponents away from their zones very well.
But the Knockback values on some of Marth's moves (mainly Dancing Blade, Fair, Bair and Ftilt [particularly Ftilt]) will make a huge difference, because he can "accidentally" kill opponents without really fishing for anything else other than his regular defensive and punish game. Lucina doesn't have this luxury and will have to either prolong her neutral exchanges for much, much longer than Marth's average interactions (and that is very important in high-top level play, where you'll be facing Top Tiers with similar or better neutrals that will keep on contesting or outright beating yours) or burst out of her comfort area and commit into a more unsafe option to score a kill.

Marth likely is only considered as a Top 10 contestant because he is safe and his knockback is "broken" (very skewed risk/reward ratio), but other than that he still may have one of the worst disadvantage states among them, and as stated earlier, his neutral is matched or beaten by most of the elite characters. I personally do not think too high of Marth, he might drop once people figure him out more.

I really want to believe Lucina is a very strong character, but Marth's raw reward catapult him way too far from her reach. Hence why I believe she doesn't belong "right next to Marth" in any tier list.





Now, she isn't a bad character either, safety is an amazing thing to have and I do not think she loses many (if any) mid or low tier matchup; but cracking into the very top isn't easy, and while she will likely go nowhere but UP in the future, she currently doesn't have a particularly impressive Curriculum. Time will tell how strong she really is.

 

[TDK]

If Marth didn't exist, how would you all view Lucina?

 

[Heracr055]

TDK

Yeah, we shouldn't play that game of 'if character X wasn't around then how would character Y be perceived'.
Lucina is a very solid character with Dancing Blade, a great tool for winning neutral. She has a reliable kill throw and Marth's relatively safe pressure tools. I firmly believe she belongs in high tier.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If Marth didn't exist, how would you all view Lucina?

a high tier, probably somewhere around 17 - 22

Marth's existence doesn't change how good Lucina is, he just makes her irrelevant.

 

[ぱみゅ]

While making my tier list, I grouped her around 23rd-26th mostly because she has close to no results, but I think she has a lot of room to grow, potentially around 15th if her meta is pushed hard enough.


Also, she isn't irrelevant, she's simply not as relevant as Marth, who has been in the spotlight lately.

 

[Bowserboy3]

In regards to Lucina and getting kills, I sometimes toy with her in friendlies; note that I am a Marth main.

Before 1.1.4, Lucina's attacks did pretty much the average of Marth's tipper and sourspot. When said patch was released, lots of Lucina's main moves (such as her spacing moves, like Fair and Bair) got damage buffs, like Marth's, but said damage buffs were a lot more than before. As such, a lot of her best moves actually now do over the average damage; this is important. Rage makes some of these attacks straight up dumb in their KO power; all smashes, Dancing Blade, Ftilt, Fair, Bair, and even an uncharged Shield Breaker come to mind.

With some rage, Lucina essentially packs Marth's tipper along the whole sword. While you can argue the same for Marth, in that it makes his tippered attacks even more devastating, he's still got to space those attacks, and no player is a robot.

Lucina having this "advantage" makes a huge deal in certain MU's (and while on the topic of MU's, I'll also point out that there are no MU's in the game that Marth can deal with that Lucina can't; any MU that Marth can win, Lucina can also. The characters that struggle with Marth also struggle with Lucina as well).

I will also reiterate that Lucina's Bair is absolutely ridiculous with rage. Having a quick spacing move (a good one at that, with great range/coverage and a nice AC frame) that works OoS, that you don't need to space a particular hitbox to get the power, is a big deal when it can KO from center stage at around 100%.

The mentality that Lucina cannot seal out stocks effectively ABSOLUTELY needs to go straight out the window. Yes, Marth can take stocks earlier than Lucina thanks to his tipper, but I want to reiterate that this doesn't mean that Marth will always seal a stock before Lucina. Again, we are not robots.

When opponents get past a certain percent (which would be around 100%), it becomes very hard for Marth to KO them if they actually decide to play up close in his face; Dancing Blade will struggle to connect correctly with either away DI or up and away DI, and the sooner people realise that away DI with a jump airdodge breaks Jab followups, the better. Sealing stocks past a certain percent has been an issue with Marth in every game (albeit, it's an issue that has lessened with each game; Rage and Smash 4 Up Throw put a cap on this issue this time around, that cap being around 160%). Lucina does not have this issue. Opponents cannot play up close in her face without the pressure of being KO'd by a rouge spacing move.

That said, Marth is still the better character overall; basic fundamentals are more rewarding with Marth. However, simply having those basic fundamentals doesn't mean every situation will always be better for Marth (one explained above), which people need to start realising quickly.

 

[Routa]

I saw someone mentioning Dark Pit and Pit.
There isn't major difference between the characters. The lack of "tipper" on F-tilt and less maneuverable arrows does hurt, but Dark Pit has better Side-B.... right?
I would still argue that Pit's Side-B is better. This has to do with it having vertical knockback. While Dark Pit's can kill easier at the ledge... well you are better off with F-smash due to how risky the side-b is. I mean 2 sec of lag after hitting a shield? Geee... also its ability to kill depends heavily from your location on the stage. Now what does Pit's Side-B have over Dark Pit's killpower? Like I said it will hit foes upwards so even if it fails to kill, it will still put foe in the place where you don't want to be against Pit which is above him. Why? Pit is perhaps the best character at catching landings.
I would still put Dark Pit right behind the Pit due to them still being very similar and due to there not being a character that is weaker than Pit, but stronger than Dark Pit.

Also what did we learn yesterday? Don't AD against Faptain and Burger King and that Marth vs Lucina drama is still a thing.

 

[ARGHETH]

Also what did we learn yesterday? Don't AD against Faptain and Burger King and that Marth vs Lucina drama is still a thing.

It's only a matter of time before Pikachu discussion comes back...

 

[Guido65]

The lack of "tipper" on F-tilt

Dark pits ftilt does have a tipper. It has 25 less base knockback which is why its weaker.

 

[T4ylor]

Routa I've played Dark Pit and feel that Pit is likely a fair amount better, though it's hard to tell how big the gap is. Pit's ability to get free damage off of arrows once he's in an advantage state is huge, they can also be used to force punishable air dodges. Just watch any set with Earth to see how much work they put in and how you throw away that consistency to maybe get an early kill with Dark Pit's Electroshock

 

[sleepy_Nex]

It baffles me how high Ryu still is in the tierlists in the twitterlinks. They are putting him over ZSS, Rosa and MK thats ridiculous.

I can't say that i look forward to the new Tierlist.

 

[MistressRemilia]

If Marth didn't exist, how would you all view Lucina?

I would gladly answer this question, if i could.
Much like the Miis, the clones haven't had their tme in the spotlight enough to be understood at a decent level by anyone other than their mains. I strongly advice that, in the near future, unless any improvement is made towards Mii, we start unranking Mii Brawler, Gunner, Swordfigter, Lucina, Dark Pit & Dr.Mario from tier lists entirely because the amount of false information that's shared every time about these characters, as well as the inability to talk about these characters made more obvious by the fact that people are unable to go on about these characters w/out talking about the character they're based off of, and a clear lack of result ( even though Lucina has seen a bit of use lately as secondary ) make them too foggy to be judged accurately by the majority.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I would gladly answer this question, if i could.
Much like the Miis, the clones haven't had their tme in the spotlight enough to be understood at a decent level by anyone other than their mains. I strongly advice that, in the near future, unless any improvement is made towards Mii, we start unranking Mii Brawler, Gunner, Swordfigter, Lucina, Dark Pit & Dr.Mario from tier lists entirely because the amount of false information that's shared every time about these characters, as well as the inability to talk about these characters made more obvious by the fact that people are unable to go on about these characters w/out talking about the character they're based off of, and a clear lack of result ( even though Lucina has seen a bit of use lately as secondary ) make them too foggy to be judged accurately by the majority.

Mii's perhaps I can understand because there are varying rules about them all across the globe.

Clones on the other hand are completely separate characters. Simply not including them would be a joke.

No other Smash game has "removed" the clones, so to speak. Why should Smash 4 be any different?