Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

Also, what else are you saying by calling placing Lucario in a tier list "pointless"?

a bair trade during neutral spacing that kills at 40 is completely random.
just like a diddy throwing out dtilts when you hit 120 is random.

and it's pointless because the mu is that volatile.
if it's not a very very good or very very bad matchup for lucario, placing it with numbers is pointless.

 

[TDK]

Frostbite 2017 (342 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Tsu-
3rd: Nairo
4th: Dabuz
5th: Salem
5th: Shuton
7th: ANTi Sucks l Zinoto
7th: Ally
9th: VoiD
9th: Some
9th: Mr. E
9th: Kameme
13th: WaDi
13th: Deathorse
13th: MKLeo
13th: Kirihara

Spoiler: rest of top 32

17th: Smasher1001
17th: Abadango
17th: Seagull Joe
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Ned
17th: KEN
17th: Ryuga
17th: Komorikiri
25th: Blacktwins
25th: Rich Brown
25th: Myran
25th: DarkAura
25th: Black Yoshi
25th: MVD
25th: NAKAT
25th: Fatality

UBC Cup 2017 (54 Entrants) (British Columbia)

1st: Big D (Possibly )
2nd: Locus
3rd: Captain L
4th: FoCus ( Possibly )

On the topic of Lucario, it probably helps him that the top 3 (And to a lesser extent, most of the top 10) are excellent damage rackers with poor kill options. If the top 3 was, say, , I doubt we'd be having this discussion.

 

[ARGHETH]

On the topic of Lucario, it probably helps him that the top 3 (And to a lesser extent, most of the top 10) are excellent damage rackers with poor kill options. If the top 3 was, say, , I doubt we'd be having this discussion.

Dath actually doesn't like the Lucario MU.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Lucario's one of those characters where the character counterpick really does matter. Don't want to constantly win neutral and be in proximity of Luc nukes? Get a disjointed damage racker out there and keep him out, or use a grappler and win neutral 3 times instead.

 

[TDK]

Dath actually doesn't like the Lucario MU.

Does Anyone like the Lucario MU?

 

[FeelMeUp]

i really enjoy fighting lucario, myself.
it's a rush.
makes you play perfectly or risk getting blown up for your mistakes.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

7th: ANTi Sucks l Zinoto

I will never get tired of this.

Lucario's one of those characters where the character counterpick really does matter. Don't want to constantly win neutral and be in proximity of Luc nukes? Get a disjointed damage racker out there and keep him out, or use a grappler and win neutral 3 times instead.

So you're saying...

loses to ?

And similar characters?

 

[|RK|]

i really enjoy fighting lucario, myself.
it's a rush.
makes you play perfectly or risk getting blown up for your mistakes.

Dude, same.

Dath actually doesn't like the Lucario MU.

Many Robin players don't. Remember that Lucario is actually decently mobile. Many of the chars with real kill confirms also don't have the mobility to play Lucario like you need to.

 

[L9999]

I think Lucario is too dangerous for mid tier when you have people like Tsu playing him the way he did, and he steamrolled bad MUs along the way. I also like to fight Lucario, it is a battle of who janks who first with Ness.

 

[Deleted member]

I will never get tired of this.


So you're saying...

loses to ?

And similar characters?

does reasonably well against Lucario as well. The MU is volatile, but most of Lucario's MUs swing that way.

Shulk's hitboxes/range outdo Lucario's and he's able to kill him off reasonably early with Smash Art when he gets him at a high enough percent then play keepaway/camp for the rest of the game when he has a stock lead. Shulk also tends to **** him at the ledge and can intercept his recovery well with proper timing.

 

[SaltyKracka]

excellent damage rackers with poor kill options.

>Diddy.
>Poor kill options.

Brain.exe has suffered a laugh overflow error and had to be restarted.

 

[Luigi player]

Most top players already had Lucario as a top ~15 character since like a year or more because they experienced how broken he can get with full rage and aura. Great that he had some new refreshing success after having fallen off a little in results (he had great results for a while in Japan but that diminished since quite a while).

Do you have the list for the crouching diddy fair?

Yeah, here's Ninjalinks list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pi6DLnoWvMEtPJUMam-JtUHAKquMCfW207HQXdnEXjE/edit#gid=0

 

[Das Koopa]

I think this was close enough to adequately demonstrate that Lucario is probably solo-viable if played as well as Tsu played him

 

[ARISTOS]

It'll be interesting to see how top players adapt to Lucario; unlike for example a Megaman, who is reliant on footstool MB for early kills, Lucario oozes kill power out of every orifice.

I would have liked to see Tsu less on Battlefield, cause I think it gave Zero too many options to escape his landing pressure

 

[|RK|]

It'll be interesting to see how top players adapt to Lucario; unlike for example a Megaman, who is reliant on footstool MB for early kills, Lucario oozes kill power out of every orifice.

I would have liked to see Tsu less on Battlefield, cause I think it gave Zero too many options to escape his landing pressure

As soon as game 5 went to Battlefield, I was like "RIP." But it was ZeRo's counterpick for a reason.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Tsu was also catching a lot of monkey flips and in general getting fantastic reads on Zero the whole two sets. It's amazing how well he was using Lucario's full kit to his best ability, I'd say Lucario is solo viable based of the fact your never out of the game at any point.

I enjoy Lucario-Ness myself, Ness doesn't have to worry as much about Aura Sphere or Force Palm projectiles because magnet and Ness' high kill power prevents Lucario from using aura for long tho if your not spacing well you know what happens, lol.

 

[Mr. Johan]

So you're saying...

loses to ?

And similar characters?

Well, bear in mind that I didn't say Lucario "loses" to this archetype. Just that this kind of archetype will better serve to fend off Lucario than other characters who hope to get by on neutral attrition.

Imo, I think the way people fight Lucario right now is not as optimal as it could be. Lucario's not the fastest thing alive and doesn't have the fastfall required to make tomahawk and vertical pressure a ubiquitous feature of his neutral, aside from those Dair shenanigans, which needs him to be at near ground level. So, he needs aura to make his kit combative. By playing a passive aggressive game - push him around for 45%, take potshots until he's at 95%, completely play whiff punish with single hits until he dies - you get to set the tempo with when and how Lucario gets aura, and when you set tempo, you have greater control.

It's similar to fighting Bayonetta in that regard. Just as you don't over-exert yourself against Bayonetta in case she gets a sudden Witch Twist or Witch Time in and reverses everything, you don't keep going in and risk getting floored by Lucario's ever-increasing hitboxes and power.

 

[|RK|]

Tsu was also catching a lot of monkey flips and in general getting fantastic reads on Zero the whole two sets. It's amazing how well he was using Lucario's full kit to his best ability, I'd say Lucario is solo viable based of the fact your never out of the game at any point.

I enjoy Lucario-Ness myself, Ness doesn't have to worry as much about Aura Sphere or Force Palm projectiles because magnet and Ness' high kill power prevents Lucario from using aura for long tho if your not spacing well you know what happens, lol.

Lucario and Bayonetta are probably the only MU buster characters left, Lucario more than Bayo (IMO). Any MU can be overcome because of aura's ability to seal a stock. Meta Knight used to be one.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

On the topic of Lucario, it probably helps him that the top 3 (And to a lesser extent, most of the top 10) are excellent damage rackers with poor kill options. If the top 3 was, say, , I doubt we'd be having this discussion.

Was there a lucas in the UBC tourney that you posted?

 

[Y2Kay]

My internet was down all night and when I come back I see Lucario in grands.

What is going on.

 

[TDK]

Was there a lucas in the UBC tourney that you posted?

Nope. Not that I'm aware of, anyways.

Also, here's a (somewhat comprehensive) list of who placed where and lost to who out of the PGR: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-pgr-v2-attendance-tracker.445682/#post-21670489

 

[L9999]

My internet was down all night and when I come back I see Lucario in grands.

What is going on.

What happened is that Tsu is extremely good and rage Lucario is insane.

 

[Lord Dio]

Tsu was also catching a lot of monkey flips and in general getting fantastic reads on Zero the whole two sets.

This.
I tried counting how many times Tsu read the MF in and punished with a grap to uair string, and how many times he would get in, grab, and upairs. I lost count. Not to mention the two aura sphere reads he had.

Two other things I'd like to note:
Game 5 set 2 was as much of a last hit situation as possible. In addition, Tsu only lost one of the previous games because he messed up a b-reverse.
Second, even after getting spiked for it, Tsu continued to Extreme speed at ZeRo, and repeatedly got punished for it, and during the series of trades on i think game 5, died to a bair whiel coming in with ES. Which makes me wonder, why was he recovering so high even though he was repeatedly getting punished for it? Certainly not extra damage, as he only landed the hit a couple times and most times ZeRo shielded it or intercepted it.

 

[Aaron1997]

Lord Dio Because he doesn't want to be on the ledge vs Zero. Why go on the ledge vs the best ledge traper in the world with a character that has poor Ledge options/disadvantage state when you can go for the stage, Take a smash/Grab combo and reset to neutral. Though there was some times where he shouldn't have done that.

 

[T4ylor]

Lord Dio I don't have too much experience playing as Lucario myself, but ZeRo explained it in his interview. Said he kept using ExtremeSpeed onto the stage, because it's safe and he didn't want to risk the SD, since it's so hard to control at higher percents.

 

[Lord Dio]

Ohhh, ok. That makes more sense.
Yeah I remember when I first started playing the game, I played Lucario and constantly SD'ed with extremespeed. Controlling it can be pretty rough....
But that definitely makes sense. Tsu awes me even more now. He went for the safe option knowing more often than not he'd get punished, did it, got punished, and still found his way back onstage. That man's play was amazing.

 

[Nobie]

Most characters treat Bayonetta like hot lava.

Lucario is Bayonetta's hot lava.

I always wondered what use Lucario's high walk acceleration had, and Tsu showed it off. That pacing back and forth. That spacing.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://twitter.com/chibiT2169/status/836047820444463105

Could we see a revival of Pacman soon??? PogChamp

 

[Nu~]

https://twitter.com/chibiT2169/status/836047820444463105

Could we see a revival of Pacman soon??? PogChamp

PLEEEAAASSEEEE!!!!

Holy hell I'd be hyped. To this day apex 2015 is still my favorite because of how much Pac-Man means to me lol. The feeling I got from seeing him climb to top 8 was beyond words

 

[L9999]

Most characters treat Bayonetta like hot lava.

Lucario is Bayonetta's hot lava.

I always wondered what use Lucario's high walk acceleration had, and Tsu showed it off. That pacing back and forth. That spacing.

Nothing to do with Lucario, but in one of Shuton's matches D1 commented that he did "The Ally" in which you run/walk back and forth on place to get a grab or an Up Smash. I guess that any character with decent walk/run acceleration can pull it off with certain degree of success.

 

[Luco]

Maybe it would feel better if people envisioned Lucario as a true heavy while playing him. In a way like heavyweights he has problems (most heavyweights suffer frame data stuff, Lucario's is more range based you could say?) and so you wail on them all for a while and then suddenly they're at 150% rage (+aura) and you realise one stray 'x' will kill you. Lucario trades the immediate power of heavies for better maneuverability and safety / a projectile.

I dunno I guess it's not the best analogy but I feel like everyone's so busy calling rage mechanics busted yet to me there's *some* way an apt comparison could be made. Lucario might be the first truly viable character of this type to be top tier, personally I think that's freaking cool.

 

[The-Technique]

Somehow I feel like we'd have a different story if Nairo encountered Tsu earlier on in winners instead of Zero. ZSS pretty much lives to destroy the dreams of heavyweights without breaking a sweat.

In the earlier days Day would also get mollywhopped on a regular basis by Ryo's Ike. I think most characters with that can zone out Lucario and have reliable grab confirms beat him solidly.

 

[Das Koopa]

the real discussion we should be having is the effectiveness of praying to your waifu;

https://clips.twitch.tv/unrivaledtournaments/ElegantPigeonNinjaTroll

 

[The-Technique]

the real discussion we should be having is the effectiveness of praying to your waifu;

https://clips.twitch.tv/unrivaledtournaments/ElegantPigeonNinjaTroll

this is even better

https://twitter.com/AkaiRiot/status/835920479781285889

 

[ぱみゅ]

the real discussion we should be having is the effectiveness of praying to your waifu;

https://clips.twitch.tv/unrivaledtournaments/ElegantPigeonNinjaTroll

This took me longer than I thought it would...lol#Frostbite2017 pic.twitter.com/ty7rwrlzcN

— Akai Riot (@AkaiRiot) February 26, 2017

But jokes aside, let's remember there is a Frostbite hype thread and a Competitive Impressions thread.

 

[DanGR]

So how did a Lucario player get 2nd at such a stacked tournament? How much of Tsu's success can we attribute to internal/external factors? (e.g. his in-game skill, character selection, the [NA] environment, tournament environment, bracket luck, etc.)

It's difficult to gauge the effect of skill when you're judging it alongside such a volatile, underrepresented character in an environment where the top players at the tournament have such limited experience against a player of Tsu's caliber. (who I'd argue is obviously more skilled at the game than any Western Lucarios- at least that much I hope is readily apparent)

However, it's no secret Tsu had dropped off a bit in Japan. Can we attribute that to increasing matchup knowledge in Japan? - to personal factors? I'd be interested in learning more about Tsu's practice habits/schedule and shifts in his personal player development. Where does one go to learn about information like that? Every time someone ridicules a player for making a vblog, a lonely kitten dies.

Is it just a matter of time before NA catches on or could this signify the beginning of a slight meta shift towards Lucario as a [slightly] more common pick? Does this remind anyone of Abadango's run at Pound2016? Dath at Shine2016? Does Anti suck?

I have a lot of questions and not many answers.

 

[Lord Dio]

So how did a Lucario player get 2nd at such a stacked tournament? How much of Tsu's success can we attribute to internal/external factors? (e.g. his in-game skill, character selection, the [NA] environment, tournament environment, bracket luck, etc.)

It's difficult to gauge the effect of skill when you're judging it alongside such a volatile, underrepresented character in an environment where the top players at the tournament have such limited experience against a player of Tsu's caliber. (who I'd argue is obviously more skilled at the game than any Western Lucarios- at least that much I hope is readily apparent)

However, it's no secret Tsu had dropped off a bit in Japan. Can we attribute that to increasing matchup knowledge in Japan? - to personal factors? I'd be interested in learning more about Tsu's practice habits/schedule and shifts in his personal player development. Where does one go to learn about information like that? Every time someone ridicules a player for making a vblog, a lonely kitten dies.

Is it just a matter of time before NA catches on or could this signify the beginning of a slight meta shift towards Lucario as a [slightly] more common pick? Does this remind anyone of Abadango's run at Pound2016? Dath at Shine2016? Does Anti suck?

I have a lot of questions and not many answers.

Tbh feels like a Ranai/Kameme thing here, NA will catch on eventually. Granted, Day and the other Lucarios play differently, but people will definitely start to catch on.
Just like it's been said we can't attribute the whole thing to the power of aura, I don't think we can chalk up all of it to Tsu being really really skilled. Most of it, sure, but not all of it.
I'd want to say mostly skill with a little bit of aura power, knowledge of Lucario's kit and setups (I don't think I've seen a set where Day uses Aura Sphere anywhere as much as Tsu does), NA players being inexperienced in the MU (or against a Lucario who plays like Tsu does), and a shred of bracket luck and good reads in some cases.

Nothing to do with Lucario, but in one of Shuton's matches D1 commented that he did "The Ally" in which you run/walk back and forth on place to get a grab or an Up Smash. I guess that any character with decent walk/run acceleration can pull it off with certain degree of success.

Indeed he did, just walked around for a second, waited for ally to come over, and f-smashed ally back to the other side.

 

[|RK|]

So how did a Lucario player get 2nd at such a stacked tournament? How much of Tsu's success can we attribute to internal/external factors? (e.g. his in-game skill, character selection, the [NA] environment, tournament environment, bracket luck, etc.)

It's difficult to gauge the effect of skill when you're judging it alongside such a volatile, underrepresented character in an environment where the top players at the tournament have such limited experience against a player of Tsu's caliber. (who I'd argue is obviously more skilled at the game than any Western Lucarios- at least that much I hope is readily apparent)

However, it's no secret Tsu had dropped off a bit in Japan. Can we attribute that to increasing matchup knowledge in Japan? - to personal factors? I'd be interested in learning more about Tsu's practice habits/schedule and shifts in his personal player development. Where does one go to learn about information like that? Every time someone ridicules a player for making a vblog, a lonely kitten dies.

Is it just a matter of time before NA catches on or could this signify the beginning of a slight meta shift towards Lucario as a [slightly] more common pick? Does this remind anyone of Abadango's run at Pound2016? Dath at Shine2016? Does Anti suck?

I have a lot of questions and not many answers.

We also have to remember that Tsu did beat Shuton and Abadango at the local pre-Frostbite and Kameme here. And they're very familiar.

 

[Rizen]

It's cool a / did so well for a change but is it really such a surprise? They're both high tiers. Following and 's footsteps all the high tiers are practically waiting for a good player to pick them up for a good run.

 

[Bowserboy3]

To all the people saying "stop overeating to one result", 's ability to turn MU's instantly in his favour is something that cannot be overlooked. It's less of people overreacting to a result, and more a player showing/proving what a character can do when played correctly to us all.

The aura mechanic is very dumb, I won't try and mask that. However, I will point out that Lucario's overall frame data is quite poor; his most powerful KO moves, such as Bair and his Smashes, are all very slow to start up and have a fair amount of lag after them. Smash 4 Lucario with some of his Brawl frame data would be really, REALLY dumb.

And we have to stop discrediting Tsu's performance and dismissing it because "Aura luck/jank". Yes, aura helps Lucario win games, but it takes a skilled player to utilise it, and Tsu played like a god yesterday. You can watch literally all of Tsu's top 8 run and see the skill; just look at all the times he was knocked off stage and battered about upon recovering (look at how many times he teched and recovered back to continue). Just look how amazing his DI was (these two points mean a LOT for allowing Lucario to perform at his best). More importantly, just look how well he managed to stay calm and play at the +130% he often needed to. Tsu was performing combos and getting in his damage in many ways that other Lucario players do not (I liked his use of throwing an Aura Sphere at the end of an aerial combo to get that extra damage). Tsu was pushing his character to the limit. Simply dismissing what he has done because "Aura is dumb" is very backwards in terms of development for the metagame.

Lucario has always had a steady stream of results overall; perhaps less common at top level, but worldwide and in all levels of play, Lucario pulls in a fair amount of results. This is why it doesn't surprise me to see a good result from Lucario at top level. It's not really a "freak result". A "freak result" would be a complete outlier with almost no results () doing what Lucario has done.

Whether Lucario is high tier, top tier, whether you don't like Lucario's design because it strays from the norm, whatever. We have to accept and respect the fact that Lucario can perform, as showcased by Tsu.

I personally don't mind the Aura mechanic much. Being KO'd at 40% is kind of dumb, again - I won't lie, but it's not something that's actually easy to pull off. Like most characters in this game, it's a mechanic that takes skill to utilise/abuse.