Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

No.
Sheik abuses both characters' disadvantage state (it is pretty bad guys, I expect them to fall from grace like Captain Falcon did), and properly spacing against her is really difficult since she's pretty much always where SHE wants to be, not where you want her to be.
Tippers wouldn't matter for the matchup (as in, weighing your options against your opponent's), but they can matter for the final result (stray tippers can kill her really, REALLY early).
I guess if your definition of "60-40" is "A can win 60% of the time" then yes, you can name it like that.

killing off a grab or jab against sheik consistently is kinda a huge deal.....and both are things that lucina cannot do while marth can. Marth also has the chance to threaten Sheik with death by getting in her zone offstage, while against Lucina you'll never die to an offstage fair at 60

 

[Ulevo]

I'm curious as to how Meta Knight isn't a -3 or worse for Zelda. She suffers from the same floaty problems as Peach and Rosalina, no? Except her kit is worse than either of those characters.

It is likely worse than Peach. I think ignoring match up charts like that are more productive than actually addressing them.

 

[Laken64]

One thing I agree with ZeRo with is releasing/explanations with these tier lists on why x character is at y spot because of z reasons so we can at least see their train of thought and have better discussions on their reasoning than speculating on what they could have possibly could have thought when making this tier list. Yes it would take longer but it would be worth it in the long run.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I'll go ahead and say that, in my opinion, the matchup of Marcina vs. Sheik is rather weird.
On one hand, Marth does suffer with the sourspot hits that he is gonna get a lot off in a fast and hard to hit character such as Sheik. However, due to Sheik's problems with survivability, often just getting one key Forward Air or Up Air is more than enough to finish her off sometimes even before KO percent, something Lucina most of the time can't do, and also something extremely important in such a momentum-based character like Sheik.
On the other (basing it off of my experience against some Sheiks) not having to space hits perfectly for Lucina means she often ends up being able to get to KO percent against Sheik easier when she does get hits, and Lucina's Back and Up Air can KO Sheik pretty early while not having to worry about spacing. The matchup is still a bit jarring for both since they get overwhelmed easily and it's hard to get out of Disadvantage State, but I do not believe the matchup is somehow any better for one or the other.

 

[DavemanCozy]

How many Zelda players does anyone actually know? And I mean at least semi-good or competent Zeldas. I won't judge Ven or the chart because I have little experience with Zelda, but rather what I question is why is she not mid or high tier already? and where are all the Zeldas?

 

[TheGlove]

https://youtu.be/pnYtjXJh_lc?t=37m44s

Zero discusses Diddy in his interview with EE.

For anyone who doesn't want to watch this here are a couple things Zero claims.

Diddy Kong is not the best character in the game, he is not the best at any one thing but pretty good at everything.

has the best neutral in the game.
has better juggles
has the best combos

He seems to imply that DIddy is either the 5th or 6th best character in the game, but doesn't outright say his opinion and we will eventually get this in his tier list video.

Diddy's 6 losing match ups.



For mario and fox, he doesnt talk about matchup specific stuff, although in this case its probably excusable since this is an interview, but he does mention MVD losing to a lot of fox palyers and Zinoto having a large losing record against Ally as evidence of these matchups being bad.



nothing at all on these guys
Very swingy matchup, depends entirely on gimping cloud otherwise cloud beats Didddy in apparently everything.
This one he feels isn't that bad and may end up even.

Zero brings up that diddy cannot be the best character in the game because he has clear bad matchups as opposed to other smash top tiers like , and pre patch who at worst had even matchups. Later he says to look at Mr R and KEN's matchup charts as an example of what he would expect the best character in the game to look like.

This part of the interview is from about 37:40 to 47:30 so I would recommend rechecking my translations for accuracy before really going in on any one opinion.

 

[Pazzo.]

I wonder how many of the voters on the list actually chose Diddy as #1, and how many knew that he's just top 5, and placed him there.

Diddy's probably not the best, but he's objectionably greater than most. Compare that to the controversy of Sonic, Sheik, Rosa, Ryu, Bayo, etc.

 

[blackghost]

Two points I'd like to add to this:


2) ZeRo was on EE's talk show today, and talking about how Diddy can't possibly be the best character in the game. His reasoning was that, when you think #1 character in Smash, you think of someone with no bad matchups. Diddy, in ZeRo's opinion, has 4 to 5 disadvantageous matchups, which pales in comparison to Melee Fox [and implied Brawl MK].
?

yet more reason why I don't listen to what zero says. the number one character in any fighting game rarely has universally good matchups (even dark phoenix loses to Vergil). this method of looking at characters is so inheritedly flawed. melee fox and brawl mk are broken characters period. just because smash players have gotten past that doesn't change what they are. Diddy mu spread in 4 is amazing, his results are amazing, and it can be argued many things haven't been thoroughly explores for him yet. Diddy may not be the best but zero reasoning is awful

 

[Ethan7]

m2's double jump is too slow.
the way every normal character gets out of uthrow>followup is jumping, which gives the sheik no true followups. she normally only gets stuff like uair or tipper usmash if you airdodge like an idiot.
but since his double jump is so slow and his hurtbox is so big we get a prepatch 50/50 with a tighter window back.
gotta check discord to see if it works on ness and lucas though.
edit: might work on them, gotta test it sometime.

Why can't you jump and then air-dodge right after?

 

[Rizen]

How many Zelda players does anyone actually know? And I mean at least semi-good or competent Zeldas. I won't judge Ven or the chart because I have little experience with Zelda, but rather what I question is why is she not mid or high tier already? and where are all the Zeldas?

Ven and Purple Guy aka Ed are the tourney active Zeldas I know of. Maxy and Kurogane Hammer played her in the past but not anymore iirc.

 

[LRodC]

m2's double jump is too slow.
the way every normal character gets out of uthrow>followup is jumping, which gives the sheik no true followups. she normally only gets stuff like uair or tipper usmash if you airdodge like an idiot.
but since his double jump is so slow and his hurtbox is so big we get a prepatch 50/50 with a tighter window back.
gotta check discord to see if it works on ness and lucas though.
edit: might work on them, gotta test it sometime.

Thanks for the insight, I didn't know about this. That's definitely concerning if true. It's probably even or only slightly in M2's favor then if that's the case when I used to think it was solidly in Mewtwo's favor. I'll have to mess around with this and see if there's any solid counter play.

 

[|RK|]

Mario hard counters his style so I'm really not surprised that he thinks it's a losing MU.
In the same vein, Marth also hard counters his style so I'm not surprised he doesn't have him worse than -1.
The other stuff aside from Lucario even(??) while Sonic and Diddy aren't are fairly normal.

Actually, I think you explained why he has Lucario even pretty well. Like the others, he kinda hard counters Mr. R's style. I forget who posted the Sheik kill percentages, but Mr. R's were noticeably higher than, say, VoiD's. And then, he tends to overcommit for kills more often than others. Both great for Lucario.

 

[Ethan7]

Thanks for the insight, I didn't know about this. That's definitely concerning if true. It's probably even or only slightly in M2's favor then if that's the case when I used to think it was solidly in Mewtwo's favor. I'll have to mess around with this and see if there's any solid counter play.

Mewtwo's double jump is delayed so it takes long to get high enough, but while he's traveling upward he can air-dodge, I believe. I don't think this is a 50/50.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Ven and Purple Guy aka Ed are the tourney active Zeldas I know of. Maxy and Kurogane Hammer played her in the past but not anymore iirc.

But do you actually know them? I wasn't asking if you know of them, I was asking if you play against them regularly.

For example, the only Fox main I know who has experience in the Fox vs Zelda MU is Skarfelt. Because he actually has maXy in his region (and didn't he drop her for Cloud recently?)

 

[Rizen]

But do you actually know them? I wasn't asking if you know of them, I was asking if you play against them regularly.

For example, the only Fox main I know who has experience in the Fox vs Zelda MU is Skarfelt. Because he actually has maXy in his region (and didn't he drop her for Cloud recently?)

Oh. I've only played people on wifi so no :/

 

[FullMoon]

I wonder how many of the voters on the list actually chose Diddy as #1, and how many knew that he's just top 5, and placed him there.

Diddy's probably not the best, but he's objectionably greater than most. Compare that to the controversy of Sonic, Sheik, Rosa, Ryu, Bayo, etc.

Most votes had the characters be ordered so yes a lot of people did choose Diddy as #1, me included.

 

[Funen1]

I wonder how many of the voters on the list actually chose Diddy as #1, and how many knew that he's just top 5, and placed him there.

Given Diddy's average placement was 1.32 and his standard deviation was the second lowest among all characters (after Jiggs), I'd wager quite a few put him as #1. EDIT: FullMoon beat me to it with some even better information, though that definitely helps with that question. I'm obviously not qualified enough to have a vote, but I've always considered Diddy as no worse than #2 in this patch, only behind Sheik at worst, so yeah, even if the top spot doesn't imply the same level of dominance as in previous games, you can still be all-around good enough to secure a really high spot among the community.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't get it. You're arguing that people don't know the MU and ven's saying that people don't know the MU. What is the point you're trying to make?

I'm telling him to put his money where his mouth is... If he thinks Cloud is an even MU, or any of them really, he should have footage demonstrating how it is so.

 

[Pazzo.]

Most votes had the characters be ordered so yes a lot of people did choose Diddy as #1, me included.

That solves that line then...

Mind explaining why?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm telling him to put his money where his mouth is... If he thinks Cloud is an even MU, or any of them really, he should have footage demonstrating how it is so.

I don't think that would help, as Zelda's known for being bad, so people would likely say "Oh, these are just For Glory scrubs, the opponent made lots of mistakes, and Zelda has no tournament results to back this" as ven would have to get lots of footage to support his claim

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't think that would help, as Zelda's known for being bad, so people would likely say "Oh, these are just For Glory scrubs, the opponent made lots of mistakes, and Zelda has no tournament results to back this" as ven would have to get lots of footage to support his claim

It's not that hard to tell the difference between an even MU and somebody running into stupid **** like a moron... Especially across a bunch of matches.

If it's really even, he should theoretically be winning an even number of matches against a skilled opponent. Not bodying a for Glory scrub.

 

[LRodC]

Mewtwo's double jump is delayed so it takes long to get high enough, but while he's traveling upward he can air-dodge, I believe. I don't think this is a 50/50.

That's what I was thinking too. He's not trapped in hitstun. He can also move fluidly with his airdodge, similar to both Ness and Lucas. They likely all have this property due to their slow jumps. I'd definitely like to see a video testing this out and showing how Mewtwo can't escape a 50/50 situation if it's there.

 

[MarshieMan]

I don't think that would help, as Zelda's known for being bad, so people would likely say "Oh, these are just For Glory scrubs, the opponent made lots of mistakes, and Zelda has no tournament results to back this" as ven would have to get lots of footage to support his claim

We dont need footage to prove that cloud is a positive MU over zelda. We can objectively argue all the reasons his kit is better.

-greater range, frame data, and priority on all of his moves

-more reliable combos and KO confirms

-cloud has a very strong juggle game, zelda has a nonexistent one

-cloud also has a much stronger edge guard, which is important because clouds main disadvantage is his recovery. Cloud can two frame zeldas recovery with Dtilt, dair, and limit cross slash

-There's not much zelda can do to counter clouds limit camping (because she has no long range pressure options. No, side special doesn't count because it can be easily easily shielded). To make things worse, zelda has no real approach options to get in on a campy cloud.

-once limit is charged, zelda cant do much besides hold shield

The simple fact is that cloud's kit clearly outclasses zelda's in almost every way

 

[Cutie Gwen]

We dont need footage to prove that cloud is a positive MU over zelda. We can objectively argue all the reasons his kit is better.

-greater range, frame data, and priority on all of his moves

-more reliable combos and KO confirms

-cloud has a very strong juggle game, zelda has a nonexistent one

-cloud also has a much stronger edge guard, which is important because clouds main disadvantage is his recovery. Cloud can two frame zeldas recovery with Dtilt, dair, and limit cross slash

-There's not much zelda can do to counter clouds limit camping (because she has no long range pressure options. No, side special doesn't count because it can be easily easily shielded). To make things worse, zelda has no real approach options to get in on a campy cloud.

-once limit is charged, zelda cant do much besides hold shield

The simple fact is that cloud's kit clearly outclasses zelda's in almost every way

It's not that hard to tell the difference between an even MU and somebody running into stupid **** like a moron... Especially across a bunch of matches.

If it's really even, he should theoretically be winning an even number of matches against a skilled opponent. Not bodying a for Glory scrub.

My mistake. I thought Lancer meant as a whole instead of just Cloud

 

[|RK|]

We dont need footage to prove that cloud is a positive MU over zelda. We can objectively argue all the reasons his kit is better.

-greater range, frame data, and priority on all of his moves

-more reliable combos and KO confirms

-cloud has a very strong juggle game, zelda has a nonexistent one

-cloud also has a much stronger edge guard, which is important because clouds main disadvantage is his recovery. Cloud can two frame zeldas recovery with Dtilt, dair, and limit cross slash

-There's not much zelda can do to counter clouds limit camping (because she has no long range pressure options. No, side special doesn't count because it can be easily easily shielded). To make things worse, zelda has no real approach options to get in on a campy cloud.

-once limit is charged, zelda cant do much besides hold shield

The simple fact is that cloud's kit clearly outclasses zelda's in almost every way

I feel like this doesn't take the interaction of tools into account at all. You have to consider what Zelda can do to Cloud as well. Tools in a vacuum don't help.

(And this isn't me supporting any argument - I know nearly nothing about Zelda lol)

 

[MarshieMan]

I feel like this doesn't take the interaction of tools into account at all. You have to consider what Zelda can do to Cloud as well. Tools in a vacuum don't help.

(And this isn't me supporting any argument - I know nearly nothing about Zelda lol)

Next to each of my points i brought it back to how it compares against zelda.

And i get your point, but i was hoping ven would make the part of the argument about how zelda has her own things going for her. In the end what im trying to say is that cloud has more going for him than zelda

 

[EternalFlare]

For anyone who doesn't want to watch this here are a couple things Zero claims.

Diddy Kong is not the best character in the game, he is not the best at any one thing but pretty good at everything.

has the best neutral in the game.
has better juggles
has the best combos

He seems to imply that DIddy is either the 5th or 6th best character in the game, but doesn't outright say his opinion and we will eventually get this in his tier list video.

Diddy's 6 losing match ups.



For mario and fox, he doesnt talk about matchup specific stuff, although in this case its probably excusable since this is an interview, but he does mention MVD losing to a lot of fox palyers and Zinoto having a large losing record against Ally as evidence of these matchups being bad.



nothing at all on these guys
Very swingy matchup, depends entirely on gimping cloud otherwise cloud beats Didddy in apparently everything.
This one he feels isn't that bad and may end up even.

Zero brings up that diddy cannot be the best character in the game because he has clear bad matchups as opposed to other smash top tiers like , and pre patch who at worst had even matchups. Later he says to look at Mr R and KEN's matchup charts as an example of what he would expect the best character in the game to look like.

This part of the interview is from about 37:40 to 47:30 so I would recommend rechecking my translations for accuracy before really going in on any one opinion.

I agree that Sonic probably has the best neutral. Things that normally works well in neutral goes out the window once you play against Sonic. And it's not a Diddy banana situation, you can't just wait for him to use his item or beat it easily with moves, spin dash is always a threat.

Cloud is probably even. He might be very slightly better in neutral but Diddy has a much better disadvantage state (landing options in particular) so I don't see how he loses in every aspect except offstage. Which is especially important as it means Diddy doesn't get juggled for days versus Cloud like most characters do.

Anyway, is there a top tier without bad matchups? If not, then that's hardly a good reason for Diddy not being the best.

Maybe Sheik is better in terms of matchups. I can also see her being the best due to that and results.

With that said it's important to keep in mind being the best character doesn't mean as much in this game. That character whoever it is, is not that much better than the characters just below them.

 

[MarshieMan]

With that said it's important to keep in mind being the best character doesn't mean as much in this game. That character whoever it is, is not that much better than the characters just below them.

This this this^

 

[NinjaLink]

and as an addendum to my data post, here's a fancy pie chart

Sets considered: 243
Standard Loss: 82.3%
Minor Upset: 8.2%
Major Upset: 9.5%

Spoiler: Minor Upsets

DKWill > Ally
Shaky > Ally
JJROCKETS > Ally
Ryuga > Ally
Wrath > Ally
Ned > Ally
Samsora > Ally
Samsora > Ally
6WX > Ally
6WX > Ally
ScAtt > Dabuz
Saj > Nairo
Falln > VoiD
LordMix > VoiD
Zan > VoiD
Zan > VoiD
Zenyou > Larry Lurr
Zan > Abadango
Kept > Abadango
Tsu- > Abadango

Spoiler: Major Upsets

Vanity > Ally
Blue Beast > Ally
Zenyou > Ally
Prince Ramen > ZeRo
Mr. E > ZeRo
Day > ZeRo
Blue > Nairo
Chrim Foish > Nairo
Mr. II > Nairo
DireOnFire > Nairo
Tearbear > VoiD
Jalex > VoiD
Aphro > VoiD
Nicko > Larry Lurr
Jbandrew > ANTi
NinjaLink > ANTi
Angis > ANTi
Xaltis > ANTi
Dath > ANTi
True Blue > ANTi
DarkShad > Abadango
Nyaha > Abadango
Rich Brown > Abadango

-VoiD's losses to Kossismoss/Aarvark weren't included on the chart due to aforementioned hand injury likely being an external influence.
-Bo5 makes a difference in definitions between minor and major definitions, with "major"generally being reserved for particularly unusual wins.
-Japan is hard to quantify, but losses like Brood aren't really big upsets when Aba doesn't do well in Japan at all and when Brood has a decent track record.
-These are given some form of context. DKWill beating Ally months ago is not as significant as it would be today, both of Samsora's wins are considered minor as the greater context of the tournament demonstrates him to be an extremely good player, etc.

It's likely the upset number would continually drop if I included other players in this same skill range, namely Kamemushi and Zinoto, though it would increase if I included highly volatile players like Mew2King.

if we want to be more specific about it, let's basically narrow it down to the "randoms", with a little pessimism applied

Spoiler: Gettin' real specific

Blue Beast > Ally
Vanity > Ally
Blue > Nairo
Mr. II > Nairo
DireOnFire > Nairo
Jalex > VoiD
Nicko > Larry Lurr
Jbandrew > ANTi
NinjaLink > ANTi
Angis > ANTi
Nyaha > Abadango

this is a little arbitrary but the numbers with only "randoms" hovers in the 4-5% range, give or take some sets you might find too be worthy/unworthy of the "random" title

and as an addendum to my data post, here's a fancy pie chart

Sets considered: 243
Standard Loss: 82.3%
Minor Upset: 8.2%
Major Upset: 9.5%

Spoiler: Minor Upsets

DKWill > Ally
Shaky > Ally
JJROCKETS > Ally
Ryuga > Ally
Wrath > Ally
Ned > Ally
Samsora > Ally
Samsora > Ally
6WX > Ally
6WX > Ally
ScAtt > Dabuz
Saj > Nairo
Falln > VoiD
LordMix > VoiD
Zan > VoiD
Zan > VoiD
Zenyou > Larry Lurr
Zan > Abadango
Kept > Abadango
Tsu- > Abadango

Spoiler: Major Upsets

Vanity > Ally
Blue Beast > Ally
Zenyou > Ally
Prince Ramen > ZeRo
Mr. E > ZeRo
Day > ZeRo
Blue > Nairo
Chrim Foish > Nairo
Mr. II > Nairo
DireOnFire > Nairo
Tearbear > VoiD
Jalex > VoiD
Aphro > VoiD
Nicko > Larry Lurr
Jbandrew > ANTi
NinjaLink > ANTi
Angis > ANTi
Xaltis > ANTi
Dath > ANTi
True Blue > ANTi
DarkShad > Abadango
Nyaha > Abadango
Rich Brown > Abadango

-VoiD's losses to Kossismoss/Aarvark weren't included on the chart due to aforementioned hand injury likely being an external influence.
-Bo5 makes a difference in definitions between minor and major definitions, with "major"generally being reserved for particularly unusual wins.
-Japan is hard to quantify, but losses like Brood aren't really big upsets when Aba doesn't do well in Japan at all and when Brood has a decent track record.
-These are given some form of context. DKWill beating Ally months ago is not as significant as it would be today, both of Samsora's wins are considered minor as the greater context of the tournament demonstrates him to be an extremely good player, etc.

It's likely the upset number would continually drop if I included other players in this same skill range, namely Kamemushi and Zinoto, though it would increase if I included highly volatile players like Mew2King.

if we want to be more specific about it, let's basically narrow it down to the "randoms", with a little pessimism applied

Spoiler: Gettin' real specific

Blue Beast > Ally
Vanity > Ally
Blue > Nairo
Mr. II > Nairo
DireOnFire > Nairo
Jalex > VoiD
Nicko > Larry Lurr
Jbandrew > ANTi
NinjaLink > ANTi
Angis > ANTi
Nyaha > Abadango

this is a little arbitrary but the numbers with only "randoms" hovers in the 4-5% range, give or take some sets you might find too be worthy/unworthy of the "random" title

Um...How is me beating Anti an upset? I'm not a random wtf lol https://twitter.com/coneyzz/status/696555250963124225

 

[|RK|]

Next to each of my points i brought it back to how it compares against zelda.

And i get your point, but i was hoping ven would make the part of the argument about how zelda has her own things going for her. In the end what im trying to say is that cloud has more going for him than zelda

That's fair. More detail about Zelda would make it useful to compare things.

As an example, Cloud's edgeguarding abilities are irrelevant to his disadvantage state. Zelda's edgeguarding abilities are more important there. As for the two-frame part - Zelda has a teleport recovery, so she can't be two-framed if coming from above.

Things like that.

 

[ARGHETH]

Actually, I think you explained why he has Lucario even pretty well. Like the others, he kinda hard counters Mr. R's style. I forget who posted the Sheik kill percentages, but Mr. R's were noticeably higher than, say, VoiD's. And then, he tends to overcommit for kills more often than others. Both great for Lucario.

I'm guessing you're talking about this?
They were ~20% apart overall, but that was mainly due to VoiD gimping Tweek at 50% twice and AnTi surviving until past 200% against Mr. R. Take those two out, and they killed at similar percents.
False killed notably later than both of them, though.

Spoiler: Numbers

Mr. R:

• Average: 138 (132 without Anti surviving until 238)
• SD: 30.7 (18)

False:

• Average: 156 (~157 without 104/202)
• SD: 24.8 (19)

VoiD:

• Average: 119 (129 without Void gimping Tweek at low %s)
• SD: 32.1 (19)

 

[|RK|]

I'm guessing you're talking about this?
They were ~20% apart overall, but that was mainly due to VoiD gimping Tweek at 50% twice and AnTi surviving until past 200% against Mr. R. Take those two out, and they killed at similar percents.
False killed notably later than both of them, though.

Spoiler: Numbers

Mr. R:

• Average: 138 (132 without Anti surviving until 238)
• SD: 30.7 (18)

False:

• Average: 156 (~157 without 104/202)
• SD: 24.8 (19)

VoiD:

• Average: 119 (129 without Void gimping Tweek at low %s)
• SD: 32.1 (19)

Yup, that's it! And ah, I see. Nvm then - so that is a little more confusing.

He has an explanation on Twitter... Basically just the "Lucario kills with stray hits" thing.

 

[LRodC]

Zelda can also hold down as she teleports to the ledge, preventing a two frame and allowing her to have a hitbox out.

Zelda's one of the hardest characters to gimp and two-frame in my opinion. Most of the time, she'll get back.

 

[TDK]

ZeRo's tier list so far:

Interesting things to note:

- is mid tier or higher. I guess that's not extremely surprising, but also is. Same with
- He mentions that in order to be a good character at a high level, you need good OoS options.
- ZeRo cares about Miis.
- ZeRo mentions that Link potentially could have been Mid Tier.

EDIT: and too

 

[FullMoon]

That solves that line then...

Mind explaining why?

There's not really much to explain. Diddy is a great character in pretty much all aspects, he has the best results and is probably the most consistent character overall.

Out of everyone else either him or Sheik seemed to be the best contenders for best character, but I chose Diddy because he has less trouble sealing a stock while still having an amazing neutral.

 

[NinjaLink]

*delete post*

 

[FeelMeUp]

if you buffer the uair after the dj it doesn't matter if M2 airdodges because you'll still catch him on the first frame of his jump. and m2's airdodge doesn't give him f1 invinc/intang or anything so you even have a bit of leeway with it.
sheiks like me that use L to jump generally get frame perfect aerials so jump airdodge won't save you. If it catches your jump before the airdodge comes out, it's still a 50/50
Jump airdodge is treated as the same option as jump.

 

[thehard]

Um...How is me beating Anti an upset? I'm not a random wtf lol https://twitter.com/coneyzz/status/696555250963124225

Pretty sure he put quotes around "randoms" to indicate that these people weren't actually randoms, just good players that don't travel much/have much exposure or had surprising wins given their opponents' track records. Don't think it's a stretch to call you beating ANTi an upset in Smash 4 at this point in time

 

[soniczx123]

I agree that Sonic probably has the best neutral.

No. Stop it.

 

[Rizen]

This thread's gotten lax.

IMO Diddy has a top tier neutral. Bananas are incredibly versatile and dangerous in neutral. Even when not holding one Diddy has a command grab monkey flip, a combo starting low commitment Dtilt, good SH Fair and is generally quick.

Edit, messed up, bananas aren't transcendent.