Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

I feel it's more of a testament to how insane Diddy really is than whether characters in general are nerfed or not.

Diddy loses one banana and is still, by a head and a half, the best character in the game. Meta Knight loses Brawl Uair and gliding, gets 0-deaths to compensate, and is "only" considered 11th.

I honestly would start calling it horrible character design if Smash NX rolls around and Diddy is still dominant.

 

[MarshieMan]

Diddy just has inherent advantages that make him good cross platform

 

[EternalFlare]

I feel it's more of a testament to how insane Diddy really is than whether characters in general are nerfed or not.

I mean, Project M was intended to make everyone as good as Melee Fox, and Diddy still somehow managed to be the clear-cut best character in the game without changing a thing in his movekit.

I honestly would start calling it horrible character design if Smash NX rolls around and Diddy is still dominant.

I'm assuming you are referring 3.0 PM Diddy? He's a bit more tame now in Project M, he only has one banana and side B is nerfed. But yeah, he's still easily top 5 by most top player accounts.

As someone earlier stated, Diddy's toolkit is too powerful for him not to be top tier. Banana let's him control so much, he has such good pokes for such a high mobility character, his defensive landing options are too stellar etc.

Unless he gets a complete moveset overhaul which I doubt given Nintendo's balancing methods, he's probably still going to be top tier in Smash Nx.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Can we talk about Nairo's Fox? I know these are just friendlies and that this is actually not Nairo but rather a "mysterious entity while he went to help an old lady." And I also know that Nairo did a lot of silly things (I cried when he got B-air'd like 5 times in a row for Side-Bing to the ledge all the time, you have like 2 other platforms in BF to go to besides just ledge).

But holly crap: he punished a ledge getup with an U-smash. I hope he continues to play Fox.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Can we talk about Nairo's Fox? I know these are just friendlies and that this is actually not Nairo but rather a "mysterious entity while he went to help an old lady." And I also know that Nairo did a lot of silly things (I cried when he got B-air'd like 5 times in a row for Side-Bing to the ledge all the time, you have like 2 other platforms in BF to go to besides just ledge).

But holly crap: he punished a ledge getup with an U-smash. I hope he continues to play Fox.

All of Nairo's characters that I've seen are really good.
Good enough to relatively easily win most locals/make top 8 at regionals.
To be expected from him, of course.
Really wonder how he'd play if he didn't use ZSS. Fox fits him extremely well.

 

[EternalFlare]

Can we talk about Nairo's Fox? I know these are just friendlies and that this is actually not Nairo but rather a "mysterious entity while he went to help an old lady." And I also know that Nairo did a lot of silly things (I cried when he got B-air'd like 5 times in a row for Side-Bing to the ledge all the time, you have like 2 other platforms in BF to go to besides just ledge).

But holly crap: he punished a ledge getup with an U-smash. I hope he continues to play Fox.

It is possible to punish both ledge getup and ledge jump with Up Smash on reaction, I've also seen it with Sheik.

Of course since rolling onto the stage and getup attacks have largely the same early animation, if they chose that instead they'd be safe. But considering it covers 2/4 common options it's still pretty good. Especially since people choose regular getup/ledge jump way more than rolls/getup attacks.

The main thing is you need really good reaction time and a fast up Smash with a good hitbox. Or any move with a good vertical hitbox really. The best example I can think of his Limit Cross Slash especially as it's so long lasting but that's a finite resource.

 

[Sleek Media]

Whoever directs the next smash needs to understand that in a fighting game with free movement, mobility and frame data have to be carefully balanced. Diddy, Shiek, Fox, etc will remain dominant across games as long as they retain their current designs.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Any character that excells at the transition between neutral and advantaged state fits Nairo's playstyle well ... ZSS, Fox, Bayonetta, Mewtwo ... the problem is that Fox actually has a disadvantaged state, something Nairo - having played MK in Brawl and ZSS in smash 4 - may not be quite used to. I don't think he'll use Fox for more than a secondary.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Any character that excells at the transition between neutral and advantaged state fits Nairo's playstyle well ... ZSS, Fox, Bayonetta, Mewtwo ... the problem is that Fox actually has a disadvantaged state, something Nairo - having played MK in Brawl and ZSS in smash 4 - isn't used to. I don't think he'll use Fox for more than a secondary.

Gotta keep in mind how long he played the Pits, Robin and Zelda, though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

... not very long?

 

[EternalFlare]

Oh another weakness of Diddy in Smash 4 that's rarely talked about. He kind of has Sheik syndrome against aerial opponents. With good DI, with or without rage, you are going to live against his aerials for quite some time (150+). So air camping him is a viable strategy.

This is another thing I think that keeps him in check and prevents him from being in a tier of his own. Yeah he out neutrals you hard, but you can force him to not kill you until past max range percents.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Unlike other characters that people could air camp, Diddy has a projectile that forces them to take hitstun with no knockback as he comes flying in with a Usmash, or worse, force them to stay on the ground for 50-60 frames for a free punish as they eventually look for a landing spot.

People can be patient against Diddy like so with air camping. What people forget about that is that Diddy gets to be patient too.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've backed up my claims about the game being inconsistent citing both results and objective factors about the game. In fact Das Koopa isn't disagreeing either. The only argument is why it's happening.

If the argument for the game being inconsistent is that it's new, then it's implying as time goes by (Ie the meta advances) players will establish themselves. So if the meta advances at a faster rate than top players should become more dominant more quickly.

You can't have it both ways. You can't both claim the game is new which is why top players often get upset and then when I point out 2 years is a lot of time in the current climate, completely reverse your argument to mean the exact opposite thing.

Everyone I feel like is over simplifying this in one way or another.

It's not a simple answer and rarely just for one reason.

 

[EternalFlare]

Unlike other characters that people could air camp, Diddy has a projectile that forces them to take hitstun as he comes flying in with a Usmash, or worse, force them to stay on the ground for 50-60 frames for a free punish as they eventually look for a landing spot.

Diddy's projectile is rather slow with significant cooldown. He can't realistically follow up with an Up Smash afterwards as a result. Even if you got hit by it, you'll have enough time to act before any followup.

And I don't mean only to just run away in the air. If you can throw out hitboxes against Diddy while remaining airborne he's going to have trouble finishing you off. It's why you sometimes see his opponents living to absurd percents, he won neutral a ton but they managed to avoid getting hit by the right moves to close the stock.

 

[DavemanCozy]

It is possible to punish both ledge getup and ledge jump with Up Smash on reaction, I've also seen it with Sheik.

Of course since rolling onto the stage and getup attacks have largely the same early animation, if they chose that instead they'd be safe. But considering it covers 2/4 common options it's still pretty good. Especially since people choose regular getup/ledge jump way more than rolls/getup attacks.

The main thing is you need really good reaction time and a fast up Smash with a good hitbox. Or any move with a good vertical hitbox really. The best example I can think of his Limit Cross Slash especially as it's so long lasting but that's a finite resource.

I'll give you ledge jump, but getup iirc has a 1 frame punish window? That's more of a read to me. Although yes, it is a very common choice, probably because of how safe it is compared to the other options.

 

[FeelMeUp]

ledge getup has 2 frames of vulnerability and can be reacted to with utilt and usmash.
fox can react to all ledge options perfectly like sheik and diddy can.

 

[ARGHETH]

...Ledge getup has 1 frame of intangibility for all characters. Every character has a FAF 2 frames after the intangibility ends (like 1-30, FAF 32) and shields are frame 1.

 

[EternalFlare]

I'll give you ledge jump, but getup iirc has a 1 frame punish window? That's more of a read to me. Although yes, it is a very common choice, probably because of how safe it is compared to the other options.

You can react to the animation before the ledge getup occurred (the climb animation). And according to this:

https://smashboards.com/threads/lets-collect-ledge-option-frame-data.409945/

That would give you roughly 30 frames to react. Or rather 24 (-6 for input lag). That's more than manageable as average human reaction time is 13-15 frames. Which fits nicely with Up Smashes generally having an 8-9 frame startup. So that's just within human threshold.

And while the window might technically be 1 frame to punish, that's not accurate in practice because your Up Smash won't only have 1 active frame. It will have several active frames giving you a lot more leniency (because even if you started it a few frames early, it will still land).

In the case of Fox:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/fox

If I'm reading this right his Up Smash has 4 active frames total. A 4 frame window to punish is more than reasonable.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Diddy's projectile is rather slow with significant cooldown. He can't realistically follow up with an Up Smash afterwards as a result. Even if you got hit by it, you'll have enough time to act before any followup.

And I don't mean only to just run away in the air. If you can throw out hitboxes against Diddy while remaining airborne he's going to have trouble finishing you off. It's why you sometimes see his opponents living to absurd percents, he won neutral a ton but they managed to avoid getting hit by the right moves to close the stock.

1) I was not referring to peanuts.

2) Why is Diddy trying to contest these aerials when "shield with banana in hand" is the best position in the game, and a position that only Diddy is manually able to set himself with?

 

[FeelMeUp]

...Ledge getup has 1 frame of intangibility for all characters. Every character has a FAF 2 frames after the intangibility ends (like 1-30, FAF 32) and shields are frame 1.

errrr
if this is true, does that not mean you have exactly 2 frames where you can do nothing and they can grab you or do whatever rather than 1.
shield being f1 wouldn't matter if you can't use it until f32. assuming this is pac's data off memory.

 

[EternalFlare]

errrr
if this is true, does that not mean you have exactly 2 frames where you can do nothing and they can grab you or do whatever rather than 1.
shield being f1 wouldn't matter if you can't use it until f32. assuming this is pac's data off memory.

You are invincible for the first 30 frames. If you can shield on frame 32, it means you only have 1 frame to punish regular getup.

But as I've explained above this is not as OP as it sounds because moves generally have way more than 1 active frame allowing you a few frames of leniency.

Example:

If you throw out a move with 5 active frames, even if you did it 4 frames too early, it will still catch the 1 frame getup. Any one of the 5 active frames could catch the getup. So the more active frames, the easier it becomes.

 

[DavemanCozy]

E EternalFlare you bring up a good point about the hitbox, and it certainly helps that fox has fast frame data.

Nairo punished it out of Shield as well, between the shield drop frames and the startup for U-smash it was just enough time for it to connect.

 

[ARGHETH]

errrr
if this is true, does that not mean you have exactly 2 frames where you can do nothing and they can grab you or do whatever rather than 1.
shield being f1 wouldn't matter if you can't use it until f32. assuming this is pac's data off memory.

It's sort of like
F30: invincible
F31: vulnerable
F32: Shield

 

[EternalFlare]

E EternalFlare you bring up a good point about the hitbox, and it certainly helps that fox has fast frame data.

Nairo punished it out of Shield as well, between the shield drop frames and the startup for U-smash it was just enough time for it to connect.

You can jump cancel up Smashes OOS even on the first available jump squat frame. As a result up Smashes OOS are quite fast with almost zero additional shield drop lag. You don't suffer the regular 7 frames of shield drop lag.

 

[MarshieMan]

Oh another weakness of Diddy in Smash 4 that's rarely talked about. He kind of has Sheik syndrome against aerial opponents. With good DI, with or without rage, you are going to live against his aerials for quite some time (150+). So air camping him is a viable strategy.

This is another thing I think that keeps him in check and prevents him from being in a tier of his own. Yeah he out neutrals you hard, but you can force him to not kill you until past max range percents.

Although i disagree with mr. Johan's counter arguement regarding projectiles, i also disagree with your statement about diddy struggling with aerial camping.

First off, the worst position you can put yourself in is above your opponent. Diddy can stuff out aerial camping with his amazing fair and bair.

Secondly, even if you aerial camp you still have to come down eventually.

Finally, and most importantly, diddy has amazing anti-air options. U-tilt kills at 120 with rage, U-smash kills even earlier (although it isnt as safe). PP U-tilt and super crawl U-tilt cover a very large area (diddy's up tilt has an active hitbox for 5 frames, which is really good)


Also very few characters can effectively air camp.

 

[EternalFlare]

Although i disagree with mr. Johan's counter arguement regarding projectiles, i also disagree with your statement about diddy struggling with aerial camping.

First off, the worst position you can put yourself in is above your opponent. Diddy can stuff out aerial camping with his amazing fair and bair.

Secondly, even if you aerial camp you still have to come down eventually.

Finally, and most importantly, diddy has amazing anti-air options. U-tilt kills at 120 with rage, U-smash kills even earlier (although it isnt as safe). PP U-tilt and super crawl U-tilt cover a very large area (diddy's up tilt has an active hitbox for 5 frames, which is really good)


Also very few characters can effectively air camp.

If they are landing into up tilts and up Smashes they are hardly air camping well.

I'm referring to things like rising aerials on shield to platform retreats. Or heavy projectile camping while constantly being in the air (Pacman for instance).

You are right that not as many characters can do this effectively in this game but there are still quite a few, especially with platforms involved.

People just generally don't like playing as "lame" as they could.

 

[MarshieMan]

If they are landing into up tilts and up Smashes they are hardly air camping well.

I'm referring to things like rising aerials on shield to platform retreats. Or heavy projectile camping while constantly being in the air (Pacman for instance).

You are right that not as many characters can do this effectively in this game but there are still quite a few, especially with platforms involved.

People just generally don't like playing as "lame" as they could.

Ah i get what you mean. As a diddy main myself i struggle with the pacman MU more than almost any other lol

 

[FeelMeUp]

It's sort of like
F30: invincible
F31: vulnerable
F32: Shield

This makes a lot of sense.
but i honestly don't think this applies to me, though, because I grab or Nair the standard getup almost 100% of the time. Meaning shield doesn't matter and the only thing that does is their fastest grounded option.
Attacking into standard getup reactions is generally a bad idea unless you have a ridiculously safe fast attack(sheik nair, fox utilt, diddy dtilt) that can convert into a stock or another ledgetrap situation.
Big reason I recommend people memorize the frame data for at least half the characters in the game. Ifledgetrapping a Palutena I want to keep in mind that her best answers to counter my ledgetrap are a f6 DA(dunno if she can instant dash attack from that close, though) and a f8 jab. Meaning she's completely at my mercy if I'm reacting properly.

 

[Ffamran]

I feel it's more of a testament to how insane Diddy really is than whether characters in general are nerfed or not.

Diddy loses one banana and is still, by a head and a half, the best character in the game. Meta Knight loses Brawl Uair and gliding, gets 0-deaths to compensate, and is "only" considered 11th.

I honestly would start calling it horrible character design if Smash NX rolls around and Diddy is still dominant.

On this subject... would Fox apply too? He didn't really change much from game to game, but at worst, was 15th in Brawl, a mid-tier. I don't know much about Brawl, but would it be plausible to say that Fox was screwed by Brawl's mechanics (and other changes) than he was screwed by his nerfs? For me, Reflector's higher startup and not being jump-cancelable would be the most major direct nerf to him as it took away a frame 1, hit confirm and shield pressure while gravity affecting vertical knockback, momentum canceling, stronger? -- compared to Melee? -- SDI, removal of wave-dashing coupled with Reflector's not being able to be jump-canceled, and yes, tripping, were his major indirect nerfs. Also, chain-grabbing issues which Fox suffered in Melee as well, but not as much? compared to Brawl. Despite all of this, he was a mid-tier while being top to high tier in 64, Melee, and Smash 4.

There are definitely more characters like this and some with longer careers and some who had moments of being at rock bottom like Marth in Smash 4. Possibly Pikachu? Always hovered above high to mid-high. It's pretty fine, especially since it means Pikachu is a pretty stable character. Sure, Pikachu's not the best in any game, but being pretty much viable in any game -- yes, even in Melee where the gaps are much higher --, that's still good. You just know Pikachu's going to be like this and Pikachu's at least going to be above-average at worst. It's when Pikachu's talked up a lot that Pikachu is the Forbidden One.

Regarding one of your a previous posts, I'd argue that it wouldn't take a design change to make Diddy weaker or even stronger. Simple number changes can make or break characters. Case in point: Marth who with number changes made him better despite being pretty much the same old Marth, albeit, more spacing and zoning heavy than also being a capable combo monster like in Melee. Or take Falco who is pretty much the same in each game, but progressively becomes worse in each game because his major tools even if they look different such as Side Smash become weaker and weaker. Even in the game where he's at his lowest, he still received nerfs. In the long-run, Uair's knockback change in 1.0.8 ruined what KO potential it had and looking at it now, the angle switch with jab 1 where the tip used to launch at 68 degrees, but now launches at 80 degrees probably allows some characters to pop up too high where jab 2 can still connect, but rapid jab is pretty much a no-no.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If they are landing into up tilts and up Smashes they are hardly air camping well.

Aren't most Utilts and Usmashes decent anti airs? Aka something that works against good air camping too? Just curious

 

[MarshieMan]

Aren't most Utilts and Usmashes decent anti airs? Aka something that works against good air camping too? Just curious

Yes thats what i was saying. However he was referring to a safer form of aerial camping. I still believe diddy has above average anti-air options.

Ive played diddy for hundreds of hours and attended many tournaments with him, but i cant ever remember losing a game due to someone camping me too hard in the air

 

[FeelMeUp]

pp/roll utilt and jc usmash are too effective at swatting air camping. i don't see why you would employ that strategy vs diddy unless you intend to air camp at a height where you can't hit him at all.

 

[EternalFlare]

Aren't most Utilts and Usmashes decent anti airs? Aka something that works against good air camping too? Just curious

Yes but I'm not referring to anti-airs which work against landing attempts. The air camping I'm describing doesn't involve landing anywhere near your opponent in the first place.

For instance, let's say you do a rising full hop aerial versus Diddy. If it lands you continue the advantage, if it's blocked, you retreat to a platform. Granted most characters don't have such aerials that can hit while rising on the ground but some definitely do. Or you throw projectiles while remaining airborne as much as possible, jumping away to safety on a platform if Diddy approaches you.

In these cases you are safe from grounded anti-air options. You're only in real danger of his aerials which don't kill at reasonable percents (unless he has rage+they are in the corner).

This in of itself won't win you the match but can almost guarantee Diddy doesn't kill you before 150+. And if you know you are going to lose neutral, losing it in away that lets you live longer in a game with rage isn't a bad idea. It can let you get a lot of cheesy victories. If you're a character that can ice Diddy out like this, do it, it makes his job way harder.

On this subject... would Fox apply too? He didn't really change much from game to game, but at worst, was 15th in Brawl, a mid-tier. I don't know much about Brawl, but would it be plausible to say that Fox was screwed by Brawl's mechanics (and other changes) than he was screwed by his nerfs? For me, Reflector's higher startup and not being jump-cancelable would be the most major direct nerf to him as it took away a frame 1, hit confirm and shield pressure while gravity affecting vertical knockback, momentum canceling, stronger? -- compared to Melee? -- SDI, removal of wave-dashing coupled with Reflector's not being able to be jump-canceled, and yes, tripping, were his major indirect nerfs. Also, chain-grabbing issues which Fox suffered in Melee as well, but not as much? compared to Brawl. Despite all of this, he was a mid-tier while being top to high tier in 64, Melee, and Smash 4.

There are definitely more characters like this and some with longer careers and some who had moments of being at rock bottom like Marth in Smash 4. Possibly Pikachu? Always hovered above high to mid-high. It's pretty fine, especially since it means Pikachu is a pretty stable character. Sure, Pikachu's not the best in any game, but being pretty much viable in any game -- yes, even in Melee where the gaps are much higher --, that's still good. You just know Pikachu's going to be like this and Pikachu's at least going to be above-average at worst. It's when Pikachu's talked up a lot that Pikachu is the Forbidden One.

Regarding one of your a previous posts, I'd argue that it wouldn't take a design change to make Diddy weaker or even stronger. Simple number changes can make or break characters. Case in point: Marth who with number changes made him better despite being pretty much the same old Marth, albeit, more spacing and zoning heavy than also being a capable combo monster like in Melee. Or take Falco who is pretty much the same in each game, but progressively becomes worse in each game because his major tools even if they look different such as Side Smash become weaker and weaker. Even in the game where he's at his lowest, he still received nerfs. In the long-run, Uair's knockback change in 1.0.8 ruined what KO potential it had and looking at it now, the angle switch with jab 1 where the tip used to launch at 68 degrees, but now launches at 80 degrees probably allows some characters to pop up too high where jab 2 can still connect, but rapid jab is pretty much a no-no.

Fox was underrated in Brawl imo. He had some big wins in Japan but just didn't have a lot of strong reps in the US.

Regardless he did have some major issues. Pikachu and Sheik had near zero-deaths on him. And they would work on any stage and were easy to do. Plus the Brawl top tiers were just way too good moreso than Fox being bad in the game. That is to say, if you directly ported Brawl Fox to Smash 4, he'd probably be at least high tier.

Marth's extended chaingrabs on Fox in Melee only work on FD and that character has so much else going for him, it more than makes up for it. Plus they are extremely hard to perform to the point where only a few Marth players can actually do them consistently. And they still aren't zero-deaths with proper DI/SDI. Peach's chaingrabs on him on FD are a lot easier but again aren't zero-deaths and it's difficult to get a grab with Peach (compared to Marth). But the main thing is definitely that it's only a factor on FD.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Nor did he put Falco or Doc, which is a complete joke as theory and practice wise they are for sure,100%, low tier.

I swear he did that just to seem "different" for more views. Idk. But to think either of them are low tier is pretty absurd. I even think Zard is better/has more potential then those two.

And Shulk of course isn't going to be low tier cause "Potential" and Zero uses him. Didnt he put him upper mid last time? Ridiculous.

I just don't really agree with Zero's list so far, except for the fact that he put default Swordsman last. That character I think really is the worst. At least he has a super powerful uair, i guess.

Don'tThrowShotsDon'tThrowShotsDon'tThrowShots

I'd honestly like to know your reasoning for why you think Doc being not low tier is farfetched when you don't think characters like Charizard or Kirby aren't farfetched to not see in Low Tier.
It might be a get out of jail card argument, but Doc's probably one of the characters that has the least defendable case of maining the character, since 2 fairly close characters are higher up. This leads into a severe lack of Doc mains, so pointing at the lack of results of Doc is kind of like shooting an ambulance, even though as you can guess, they're pretty bad..
The character's reasonable neutral against some characters ( mostly those that can't quite outlame Doc, overwhelm or keep him out hard enough, doc's anti zoning-projectile ability is also something that needs more praise, the cape is seriously an insane tool and the SH AC it brings is honestly one of the biggest redeeming qualities of Doc ), very strong advantage state ( quite underrated, people still don't get how consistent & simple Doc throw combos are, you have pretty much guarranted 25% or more combos at most% via simple moves like Usmash at low%, or RAR Bair, sometimes x2 ,a kill confirm, outstanding mixups via access to effective frametrapping by abusing autocancels on aerials or low FAF to connect an UpB or something else, decent edgeguading via Tornado/Pills/Bair which all have their own merit, reasonable ledge trapping via Tornado and non commital baits with SH FF Aerials ) and somewhat decent disadvantage state ( we've grown & improved our landing options, mostly via B Reverse Cape which is a great option at our disposal to shift direction, Doc's recovery isn't good but thinking it is fatal to Doc's viability is a huge mistake, you can still recover off of most hits, it's usually quite linear but so are a lot of recoveries like Falcon or Robin, which some charas exceed at punishing: it's more matchup dependant than you think and against a majority of the cast, Doc should & can make it back ) grants him matchups that are among the best & most valuable among the lower half of the cast. The character has a very fair shot at fighting Mario, Fox, Pikachu, Megaman,Villager and a couple other characters that are more or less relevant. The niche Doc has to offer for counterpick, coupled with nasty tricks that can be pulled off to punish inexperience make the character about as acceptable as Kirby, which in my opinion is a very close character in terms of what's right & what's wrong, only that Kirby's good matchup lean more towards the fastfallers that may not be able to play the full extend of their game against Kirby, or Kirby has access specifically to excellent tools for the matchup in question. Either way, i strongly believe these two characters are not exceptional, but decent characters that mainly have shown to be effective as counterpicks, more than solo picks, due to how both of them get overwhelm'd fairly easily by characters that specializes or can efficiently wall out the opponent.
This ultimately leads into the deviation Doc has seen in terms of thoughts on his viability, and the reason i've created this post as an answer to yours, which made me wonder: How high can you rate a character who's viability has been mostly showcased via counterpicking specific characters, rather than accomplishments of solo mains/mains of said character? I've always felt that in regard, Kirby & Doc were very similar characters, so that's why i'm asking this to you.

Charizard differs quite a bit from these two but i've never had the feeling that Zard was an outstanding character, then again i'm probably not informed enough to seriously talk about Zard, so correct me if i'm wrong at any time. Zard's lack of accomplishment at a high level kind of hurts the vision of people on the Red Lizardragon, i've never really heard any claim of Zard having a fair shot against any top tier threat. The advantage state of the character is rather good but a step down from the more viable heavies even though it shines in some aspects, like at edgeguarding linear low recoveries. The neutral game i feel is kind of bad for the fact that i've always felt most of Zard's move had some kind of counterplay attached to them, like Fair's not the safest of moves, Nair can get overwhelm'd by trades with the fast aerial pokes of characters like Diddy/Sheik & so on, Zard's Jab is good but isn't the ranged poke that Bowser's is, and so on. Disadvantage state is mostly kind of eh, like every heavyweight. So yeah, i'd like to know why Charizard mains or other optimistic people about the character have to say to convince me that this character isn't quite at least equally viable as the two charactes mentionned above, or maybe even worse. Quite frankly, much like i may have done to a bunch of you, i do not pretend to be entirely aware of Zard's options, so sorry for any mistake.

 

[LancerStaff]

Whoever directs the next smash needs to understand that in a fighting game with free movement, mobility and frame data have to be carefully balanced. Diddy, Shiek, Fox, etc will remain dominant across games as long as they retain their current designs.

The next director also needs to understand that most people don't play the game like that and should balance the game accordingly.

(Also I doubt Sakurai will give it up as long as he's alive, so...)

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Hmm, it's incorect to say Diddy Kong has been the hardest hit character when Sheik exists. Nearly all of Sheik entire moveset has taken a hit along with her weight getting reduced. Fair (nerfed 3x) bair, needles(nerfed 2x did you know needles had less endlag?) BOUNCING FISH, Vanish, Uair, D-throw and F-throw being nerfed. Lemme just be clear and say Pre-patch (3DS) was incredibly borked and most likely would have dominated the game even more so then meta knght(brawl). The only characters that maybe had a chance at contesting her in the head to head MU was Rosa and Diddy in the 3ds days. Now imagine if they never touched Sheik and allowed for her mains to advance her meta to where it is now? You thought Meta Knight was bad in brawl you haven't seen how OP sheik would have been if lord sakurai would have been merciful. The fact that even after all her nerfs, she still in contention of being the best character in the game, just let that seek in...........

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nah she still would have been not as good as Brawl MK. By a noticeable margin.

She wouldn't have had any rules created to target her specifically (LGL). She also was not able to win MUs with literally just one move (Mach Tornado. Sorry but Sheik couldn't win matches with just needles or just bouncing fish or fair. MK could legitimately win with just Mach Tornado: damage dealing, safe shield pressure/poking, beating out most other moves in the game including projectiles and other swords, recovery, and KOing were all possible out of that move. Sheik ain't recovering with Fair, and it was technically beatable/unsafe on shield if misplaced. Against an MK that knew when to pull back the Mach Tornado wasn't really punishable. Start it up wherever you felt like it, attack the opponent's shield, pull away during the last bit of the move to the safety of a platform, enjoy the lack of ending lag.

Or Uair when LGL wasn't in place as between that move and the ledge grab MK had like 1 frame where you could hit him assuming he got predictable. Which he could avoid by just, mixing up how far he dropped down/how many jumps he used before regrabbing. Heck in that situation he almost didn't need the ability to move left and right anymore. Just jump, and Uair). She wouldn't have had stages no longer legal largely because of her as well.

Either you didn't play Brawl competitively, didn't play it enough, or haven't played it recently enough against a good MK.

 

[sedrf]

My updated MU chart with the help of @itsPendulum pic.twitter.com/cSTZUy5uiE

— ven (@venason_) August 25, 2016

 

[C0rvus]

It's good to be optimistic about your character.

That's all I'm going to say.

 

[Nu~]

My updated MU chart with the help of @itsPendulum pic.twitter.com/cSTZUy5uiE

— ven (@venason_) August 25, 2016

Instead of placing a judgement on this list like the ten thousand posts after me are about to do, I'm just rather curious about every single matchup on here.

Why does Bayonetta do decently against fox and cloud for instance? It would be a lot better if he explained his reasoning.