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I wish more people were willing to say they didn't know the MU on a chart. There's 58 characters; there's no shame in not knowing how to play against Mii Gunner or Bowser Jr. In this case, there are, what, two decent Ikes in Japan? And neither of them are in KEN's region.
I never stated rage+2 stocks were the only factors for inconsistency. Quite the contrary, I listed several other reasons afterwards and concluded that Smash 4 is inherently designed to give lesser players a stronger chance of winning. I'll quote it again in case you missed it:
And yes you are very much being misleading by implying upsets don't happen very often when between both of us, we've already mentioned 20+ and that's just in the past few months and without mentioning several others.
Mid tier will be gigantic.
Tbqh, if you're using basic game mechanics that come into play every match as a reason for upsets, that's still easily explained by "player error."
Most of those things as I explained, were factors that separated top players from high-mid level players in previous games. But now in a lot of those areas, the playing field is evened out.
A lot of it is about how his banana works with the rest of his kit, nerf one or the other and he would drop.
I wouldn't have either, but I got zard bias. :D
Diddy's bananaless kit is still leagues above many other characters.
I agree. Ultimately, the way players separate themselves will have to be different from past games.
Think I'll just link to this from now on when people say our top players lose to randoms regularly.
Just a minor correction but Diddy can jump cancel item toss backwards with his banana, unless I misunderstood what you said.
I'm assuming you are referring to dashing back and then turn around jump cancelling to throw it in the opposite direction?
Hardly fair to rank a character thats only been in 2 real smash games as best overall. Fox,pika and marth have had better runs.
No, diddy can glide toss backwards. He can glide toss in any direction
3 if you count PM. Which you really should, it has had a strong competitive scene for years and even after getting black listed tanks to Nintendo, still has a lot of tournaments/majors.
You mean by dashing correct? As he has to cancel the dash with a jump cancel? I'm aware of this but because you could roll cancel glide toss in Brawl/PM he could do it almost instantly while in neutral. Though now that I think about it it might not be much faster to initiate a roll.
Actually, if i remember correctly, roll cancel item tossing is in smash 4 but it doesn't result in as long of a slide as jump cancel glide tossing.
You dont need to dash to jump cancel, but theres no reason to jump cancel unless you're dashing because a standing item throw has the same lag as a glide toss.
Yes I'm aware of all of this.
There's no reason to do it because it's bad in this game (unless they do a super laggy moving giving you enough time to regularly drop shield first and then do the regular dash jump cancelled item toss).
Ah you make a good point. In any case, there's obviously no disputing that bananas are significantly weaker than they were in previous games.
And that's before getting into extended banana combos.
When i say item throw OoS i mean if you have the banana in hand, and press a while shielding, diddy will immediately throw the banana without the shield drop lag. This is very useful, and probably diddy's best OoS punish. Better than DTilt even
I know what you mean.
Yeah i understood that and agree
I'm talking about major upsets due to game mechanics essentially overriding skill. E.g., a player outplaying their opponent the entire set losing due to rage, is probably the worst the game can get. This does not happen very frequently, and even random examples of losses are due to a combination of factors I've gone into repeatedly at this point.
I dunno what to say. When Mew2King dives like an idiot into an SD or ANTi's brain is in another realm where he randomly Nairs at the ledge letting Xaltis punish him into a KO because of Smashville's silly platform, I can't help but say that, maybe, just maybe, they weren't doing their best for whatever reason. People bring the same thing up when Mang0 SDs a bunch in Melee. It's just visible by the mistakes players make.
Results from games that have been around over a decade? I've addressed this numerous times whenever this subject comes up. These are very difficult games to compare, and referencing the consistency of Melee over a decade vs. the consistency of Sm4sh over less than 20% of that time, when both games have radically different histories, is a bad comparison. Melee did not have a supermajor within a a few months of its release with 1k players. Melee did not have weeklies with 80-100+ entrants in every metropolitan region. Melee had a comparatively tiny playerbase at the start of its competitive era in comparison to Smash 4.
It's not? I've noted that the game has a lower skill floor due to a lack of similarly obscene amounts of tech skill required, even referencing it as a primary cause for a lack of upsets in Melee since it's required. This naturally increases the likelihood of upsets.
"why are there a ton of good players in this extremely popular game that only just stopped receiving meta-shifting patches 3 months ago"
My mistake in that case. If you can admit the game itself plays a significant role, we're not in overall disagreement. I thought your argument was always that the game had nothing to do with it despite the evidence to the contrary.
Nor did he put Falco or Doc, which is a complete joke as theory and practice wise they are for sure,100%, low tier.
I feel like this is an argument against consistency, if anything. If growth happens at a faster rate, wouldn't this mean that the average player base is also growing at a faster rate, meaning that upsets are more likely to happen? Neverminding the fact that the version of the game we're playing right now has not been the same game for the past two years.
If growth happens at a faster rate for all players due to more readily available info, top players are actually more likely to lose.
Exactly. Brawl Diddy would be in a tier of his own in Smash 4. As would any other Brawl/Melee top tier.
I've backed up my claims about the game being inconsistent citing both results and objective factors about the game. In fact Das Koopa isn't disagreeing either. The only argument is why it's happening.
