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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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MarshieMan

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Hmm, it's incorect to say Diddy Kong has been the hardest hit character when Sheik exists. Nearly all of Sheik entire moveset has taken a hit along with her weight getting reduced. Fair (nerfed 3x) bair, needles(nerfed 2x did you know needles had less endlag?) BOUNCING FISH, Vanish, Uair, D-throw and F-throw being nerfed. Lemme just be clear and say Pre-patch :4sheik:(3DS) was incredibly borked and most likely would have dominated the game even more so then meta knght(brawl). The only characters that maybe had a chance at contesting her in the head to head MU was Rosa and Diddy in the 3ds days. Now imagine if they never touched Sheik and allowed for her mains to advance her meta to where it is now? You thought Meta Knight was bad in brawl you haven't seen how OP sheik would have been if lord sakurai would have been merciful. The fact that even after all her nerfs, she still in contention of being the best character in the game, just let that seek in...........
I assume you made this in response to me saying diddy kong got nerfed arguably the hardest. My main reason for saying that diddy got nerfed harder is because of his popgun cancel, which was an exploit that literally allowed him to cancel hitstun at any point. Being immune to hitstun kinda sounds worse.

Also the part about sheik still being top tier after all the nerfs can be said about diddy too
So let that seek in..

There was a problem fetching the tweet
Im just gonna say what the rest of us are thinking

On what planet is cloud an even matchup against zelda.

And why does zelda have a slight advantage against mario.

That whole MU chart left me so confused that i thought it was a joke
 
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David Viran

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I assume you made this in response to me saying diddy kong got nerfed arguably the hardest. My main reason for saying that diddy got nerfed harder is because of his popgun cancel, which was an exploit that literally allowed him to cancel hitstun at any point. Being immune to hitstun kinda sounds worse.

Also the part about sheik still being top tier after all the nerfs can be said about diddy too
So let that seek in..
Diddys pop gun cancel allowed him to cancel hitstun earlier than even AD (or maybe they were the same?) but it didn't allow him to completely bypass it. It never got to be looked at in full depth because of it getting patched out but if it's anything like greninjas and megaman's hitstun canceling it definitely had limitations on how it canceled hitstun.
 

Ethan7

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F_KOinP6u4U Looking at this, it looks like Diddy could hitstun cancel with his popgun. I imagine you could also air-dodge or shield right after. It also says you could cancel with a banana toss. Just imagine how insane Diddy would've been if this game wouldn't have been patched and remained 1.0.0. Sheik probably couldn't even 50/50 him.
 

FeelMeUp

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F_KOinP6u4U Looking at this, it looks like Diddy could hitstun cancel with his popgun. I imagine you could also air-dodge or shield right after. It also says you could cancel with a banana toss. Just imagine how insane Diddy would've been if this game wouldn't have been patched and remained 1.0.0. Sheik probably couldn't even 50/50 him.
fullscreen needles+trump bair that killed below 100+needles that AUTOCANCELLED IN A SHORT HOP+50/50+better throw combos and more range and damage on everything.
who needs a 50/50.
 

Browny

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On the topic of consistency,

I do find it quite funny how smash players are so used to rather imbalanced games, that when 1.1.6 Smash 4 is around people go all over the place trying to figure out why top players are losing, is it a bad thing and which characters are better when they are consistently inconsistent (As in, keep on placing below expectations which would hint that the character is not as good as perceived).

Maybe the game is just REALLY well balanced and in fact player skill more than ever is determining which characters feature more at the top level and there are 0 instances of a character carrying a player. Sure one could argue that the level of top player upsets is too high to be normal but doesn't it seem far more plausible that 2-stock, best of 3 games are the cause, when certain players who normally stomp their opponents end up losing once?

I don't for one single second believe that the game is less competitive because of how often top players lose. The field is evenly matched with a dozen or so players, some slightly better than others using all different characters.

I see 0 proof that the game is inconsistent while everything points to, without a doubt, the 'healthiest' any smash 'metagame' has ever been with balance. The only thing that can prove inconsistency is the 2 stock/Bo3 format.
 

Solfiner

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On the topic of consistency,

I do find it quite funny how smash players are so used to rather imbalanced games, that when 1.1.6 Smash 4 is around people go all over the place trying to figure out why top players are losing, is it a bad thing and which characters are better when they are consistently inconsistent (As in, keep on placing below expectations which would hint that the character is not as good as perceived).

Maybe the game is just REALLY well balanced and in fact player skill more than ever is determining which characters feature more at the top level and there are 0 instances of a character carrying a player. Sure one could argue that the level of top player upsets is too high to be normal but doesn't it seem far more plausible that 2-stock, best of 3 games are the cause, when certain players who normally stomp their opponents end up losing once?

I don't for one single second believe that the game is less competitive because of how often top players lose. The field is evenly matched with a dozen or so players, some slightly better than others using all different characters.

I see 0 proof that the game is inconsistent while everything points to, without a doubt, the 'healthiest' any smash 'metagame' has ever been with balance. The only thing that can prove inconsistency is the 2 stock/Bo3 format.
I agree with all of this. If anything I think Smash 4 has a high chance of having a very nice competitive scene for a long time. I also can't wait to see how the meta evolves further.
 

L9999

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Maybe the game is just REALLY well balanced and in fact player skill more than ever is determining which characters feature more at the top level and there are 0 instances of a character carrying a player. Sure one could argue that the level of top player upsets is too high to be normal but doesn't it seem far more plausible that 2-stock, best of 3 games are the cause, when certain players who normally stomp their opponents end up losing once?.
After patches. Anyone could pick up release :4diddy: and do well. Pocket:4luigi:was very common, you could learn him in a week. Lets not forget the "Ban :4bayonetta:" fiasco and that many unnoticed in Smash 4 (I know many Bayo players were good in Brawl!!!) suddenly picked up on results.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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I've seen some really bad matchup charts

But ven's is just awful

Zelda solidly loses a plethora of matchups, not just 3. A character who only has 3 losing matchups and 6 minor disadvantaged ones is probably a high tier.

Zelda

High tier

One of these things is not like the other.
 

Nobie

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On the topic of consistency,

I do find it quite funny how smash players are so used to rather imbalanced games, that when 1.1.6 Smash 4 is around people go all over the place trying to figure out why top players are losing, is it a bad thing and which characters are better when they are consistently inconsistent (As in, keep on placing below expectations which would hint that the character is not as good as perceived).

Maybe the game is just REALLY well balanced and in fact player skill more than ever is determining which characters feature more at the top level and there are 0 instances of a character carrying a player. Sure one could argue that the level of top player upsets is too high to be normal but doesn't it seem far more plausible that 2-stock, best of 3 games are the cause, when certain players who normally stomp their opponents end up losing once?

I don't for one single second believe that the game is less competitive because of how often top players lose. The field is evenly matched with a dozen or so players, some slightly better than others using all different characters.

I see 0 proof that the game is inconsistent while everything points to, without a doubt, the 'healthiest' any smash 'metagame' has ever been with balance. The only thing that can prove inconsistency is the 2 stock/Bo3 format.
Two points I'd like to add to this:

1) If you've ever heard Mang0 talk about how Melee today differs from the Melee of yesteryear, it's that the skill gap has closed tremendously. I'm paraphrasing, but Mang0 has mentioned that, while in the past Mang0's Falco in disadvantage was just head and shoulders above most others, nowadays when he gets hit, his Falco just turns into any other Falco. In other words, skill and study have made winning as Falco less consistent overall. It perhaps also doesn't help that the most stable Falco, PPMD, is out of commission, and the next best Falco is Westballz.

How does this translate to Smash 4? While there are plenty of places for skill to manifest itself, there are fewer ways for a superior player to draw a hard line in the sand and say, "You must be at least this tall to even touch me." There are very few if any "Old Mang0 Falco" situations, where even if Mang0 screwed up the opponents were restricted in terms of what they could do to retaliate. This, I think, is where factors such as Rage, etc. really shine: It muddies the waters in a way that leans towards Poker, where consistency means doing well on average because it shows how you manage variance. Here, the lower execution barrier helps, partly because Smash 4 does not become the type of game that attracts players obsessed with mechanical precision (not just limited to Melee, Brood War/Starcraft 2 fans are of the same mold).

2) ZeRo was on EE's talk show today, and talking about how Diddy can't possibly be the best character in the game. His reasoning was that, when you think #1 character in Smash, you think of someone with no bad matchups. Diddy, in ZeRo's opinion, has 4 to 5 disadvantageous matchups, which pales in comparison to Melee Fox [and implied Brawl MK].

But that's the Smash of the past, where huge imbalances invite players to utilize these Masters of All Trades to do anything and everything. It's only because Smash has a history of having very imbalanced rosters that we assume a #1 character has to be nigh-perfect.

Think about this: For every single top tier character, you could make a very convincing argument that they're at least slightly disdadvantaged against one other character.

Diddy is weak to Mega Man.
Sheik is weak to Mewtwo.
Cloud is weak to Sheik.
Sonic is weak to Cloud.
Rosalina is weak to Meta Knight.
Mewtwo is weak to Diddy.
Mario is weak to Donkey Kong.

On and on it goes.

This might be why there is so much disagreement when it comes to precise discussions of character rankings. We're used to measuring gods vs. ants, and it messes with our perspective. After all, does losing five matchups truly take a character out of contendership for the #1 position, when every character is flawed?
 

sedrf

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

Mr R made a sheik mu chart
 

FeelMeUp

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Mario hard counters his style so I'm really not surprised that he thinks it's a losing MU.
In the same vein, Marth also hard counters his style so I'm not surprised he doesn't have him worse than -1.
The other stuff aside from Lucario even(??) while Sonic and Diddy aren't are fairly normal.
 
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FeelMeUp

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if Marth vs Sheik is 4:6, Lucina vs Sheik is probably 35:65 or worse.
Tippers matter an unbelievable amount in the fastfaller matchups. Especially against a character where every hit counts.
 
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LRodC

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I would like to know about this supposed 50/50 from Sheik's up throw to up air on Mewtwo. Mr. R was saying in the replies that it would be slightly in Mewtwo's favor (which I think it already is) if she didn't have that. Is this actually a true 50/50 though?
 

FeelMeUp

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I would like to know about this supposed 50/50 from Sheik's up throw to up air on Mewtwo. Mr. R was saying in the replies that it would be slightly in Mewtwo's favor (which I think it already is) if she didn't have that. Is this actually a true 50/50 though?
m2's double jump is too slow.
the way every normal character gets out of uthrow>followup is jumping, which gives the sheik no true followups. she normally only gets stuff like uair or tipper usmash if you airdodge like an idiot.
but since his double jump is so slow and his hurtbox is so big we get a prepatch 50/50 with a tighter window back.
gotta check discord to see if it works on ness and lucas though.
edit: might work on them, gotta test it sometime.
 
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PK Gaming

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Dude must feel reaaaaaaal confident about the Corrin matchup.

(grumble)

Joking aside, it feels like a few of the +1s should be in +2 and vice versa.
 
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ぱみゅ

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if Marth vs Sheik is 4:6, Lucina vs Sheik is probably 35:65 or worse.
Tippers matter an unbelievable amount in the fastfaller matchups. Especially against a character where every hit counts.
No.
Sheik abuses both characters' disadvantage state (it is pretty bad guys, I expect them to fall from grace like Captain Falcon did), and properly spacing against her is really difficult since she's pretty much always where SHE wants to be, not where you want her to be.
Tippers wouldn't matter for the matchup (as in, weighing your options against your opponent's), but they can matter for the final result (stray tippers can kill her really, REALLY early).
I guess if your definition of "60-40" is "A can win 60% of the time" then yes, you can name it like that.
:196:
 

TheGoodGuava

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Ok forget about Pikachu, forget about Bayonetta, forget about Mario
This is inarguably most ridiculous matchup chart I have seen in 1.1.5/6
Zelda does not have the tools to compete with high mobility characters like Fox or Falcon. She doesn't have the range or frame data to do anything against Ike, Corrin, Marth, Lucina, and Clouds spacing games. Even Jigglypuff's placement on there makes me laugh. She can retreating backair her the entire game completely risk free and then 2 frame her recovery easily with nair. Ryu and MK even? Her only strength in neutral is her goodish ground game and that's completely outclassed by theirs, especially if MK players learn to step dash effectively.
 

Luco

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Something people rarely mention about Zard that probably impacts his viability more than I personally like having to play against is the stagelist. You don't really expect to get FD in this MU and every other stage is legitimately *terrifying* vs this character (also unless Char just won on either BF or DL expect him to take you to the other when you ban them vs him). Jabs are a fantastic tool for Char and beat out most safe-ish pokes from most characters who aren't also heavy-weights with long extended pokes. He also has some incredible aerials which straight up out-range and kill you. These strengths tend to make his MUs doable even if they'd otherwise be awful.

If there were two characters I'd pick to rise out of the bottom it would be Roy and Charizard.
 

Frihetsanka

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There was a problem fetching the tweet
That MU chart makes Zelda look like a mid tier character. Is she an underrated character that's actually pretty decent (like Palutena), or is he exaggerating her MU chart? Is Zelda not bottom 5?
 

FamilyTeam

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I said this before and I'll say this again: Making all of Lucina's MUs just Marth's -1 isn't exactly how things work.
 

Yoshister

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She's so underrated lmao I told people who had a problem with my last MU chart to prove to me why I should change it by playing me. Majority of the time I was right so not much changed. ~ That is all
But how do we know you're not significantly better than those guys who challenged the MU chart?
:181:
 
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Fenny

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I said this before and I'll say this again: Making all of Lucina's MUs just Marth's -1 isn't exactly how things work.
Yah I don't get why people do this

It's sometimes a boon that you don't necessarily need to worry about spacing for maximum reward.
 

FamilyTeam

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Yah I don't get why people do this

It's sometimes a boon that you don't necessarily need to worry about spacing for maximum reward.
I love how the justification is always "tipper". I can't wait for somebody to post a Sonic MU chart and say Marth is -1 and Lucina -2 because "tipper".
Seriously - go ahead, make my day.
 
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|ven|

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But how do we know you're not significantly better than those guys who challenged the MU chart?
:181:
The players who challenged me are PR in their own states. and at the same time I'm not just some random zelda lol
 

LancerStaff

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The players who challenged me are PR in their own states. and at the same time I'm not just some random zelda lol
You don't get to declare Zelda's MUs by winning a few times as one of the most obscure and unused characters in the game. Most of those matches I imagine people made gigantic mistakes because they have no idea how to actually play the MU... Without those mistakes, RIP.
 

|ven|

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You don't get to declare Zelda's MUs by winning a few times as one of the most obscure and unused characters in the game. Most of those matches I imagine people made gigantic mistakes because they have no idea how to actually play the MU... Without those mistakes, RIP.
That's the problem with people though when I put up opinions. If I lose people will say I was wrong, if I win, people will say they just don't know the MU. People always use the excuse of not knowing the MU. But if they don't know the MU, why can they judge my list? It's a paradox lol. If Zelda is a barely used character, how can they judge it for themselves? They base it off a for glory scrub zelda. Different to me where I base it off locals, regionals, and nationals I've been to.
 
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Goombo

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m2's double jump is too slow.
the way every normal character gets out of uthrow>followup is jumping, which gives the sheik no true followups. she normally only gets stuff like uair or tipper usmash if you airdodge like an idiot.
If the reason why this should work really is Mewtwo's "slow" doublejump, Mewtwo can just doublejump airdodge which gives you invincibility only one frame after the doublejump animation starts.
Problem solved.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Rather than bashing ven's Zelda matchup spread I wanna give credit to the Sheik one by @Mr-R

I'd place both Sonic and Mario at even and maybe shuffle around a few advantages [some of the +1s could be +2s and some of the +2s could be +3s] but apart from that it looks completely spot on. Good work.

:059:
 

Bowserboy3

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This chart is a prime example of how much tippers do mean in general. 6WX thinks Lucina is a +1 for Sonic, and also lists Marth as a +1, but Marth resides in the "easily goes from +1 to -2" area. The fact that both characters are considered to be much the same (+1) shows you that neither character really has much they can do to Sonic to overwhelm him in general, but Marth can essentially put Sonic on a percentage timer.

Example: If Sonic uses Spin Dash into Marth's shield, and jumps straight after (which Sonic usually does), he's forced into a specific range above Marth that can be easily tipped with a jump and Back or Up Air. This essentially means that when Sonic gets to around 100% (even less if Marth has rage), one of his best approach and combo options actually becomes a risk; if Marth manages to shield in time, Sonic can be KO'd. Against Lucina, Sonic doesn't have this worry until he's at around 125-ish %. These kind of things are vital in the Sonic matchup, because with how fast Sonic is, you most likely won't be landing the stray tippers, or the raw Lucina Fsmashes you need. With that in mind, I can understand 6WX's decision. If say, Lucina was less punishable than Marth in the matchup, then I could see her being noticeably better than him for it, but she isn't, and both characters are punished for exactly the same things. Essentially, both characters are punishable in all the same areas, but Marth has something that can be of threat to Sonic, or something that can force him to change his gameplan/playstyle.

On a similar topic, I still feel the gap between Marth and Lucina is a bit much. Like, I understand the reasoning for the gap, but I do feel it should be a little less. I'm glad Lucina isn't shown to be a poor character anymore, because she really isn't. Less relevant? Maybe, but by no means bad at all.

On another related note, I can also understand the gap between Pit and Dark Pit, and don't see why it seems to trigger a lot of people. Like, Dark Pit has no reason to be directly next to him. For one, Pit's Palutena's Bow open up far more possibilities and opportunities than Dark Pit's Silver Bow and Electroshock Arm combined. Secondly, Pit has a much bigger playerbase, with players gravitating more towards Pit than Dark Pit (likely because the reasons I stated). Finally, likely because of the last point, Pit has far more results than Dark Pit. So what reason does Dark Pit have to be directly next to Pit? Sure, you can argue that players of the characters should potentially be able to switch between the characters easily, but tier lists aren't about "potential". They are about representation, and results, and reflect the current metagame, and at this time, Pit excels in all of these areas more than Dark Pit.

Luckily for Dark Pit, he likely won't ever be that far away from Pit, like how far away Lucina is from Marth, for example, for the simple reason he is almost 100% the same as Pit. Is he irrelevant? Maybe, but that doesn't make him bad, or will stop him from ever being a few spots away from him in the long run.
 
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Das Koopa

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I'm curious as to how Meta Knight isn't a -3 or worse for Zelda. She suffers from the same floaty problems as Peach and Rosalina, no? Except her kit is worse than either of those characters.
 
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