Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fenny]

The stage is moving downwards constantly, which causes said sickness, FD causes it too iirc. Last time I heard about it it was banned for being 'too distracting'

This is what's confusing me.

How can UCT be worse for motion sickness than FD?

Although I guess the stage vibrating and the camera zooming in and out often doesn't help...

It being too distracting is BS though, when Duck Hunt is legal.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The stage vibrating and the camera zooming out are exactly why though.

Knock on FD's visuals as you please, at least the foreground, the part of the stage you must keep an eye on, remains stationary so there's little strain on the eyes.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The stage vibrating and the camera zooming out are exactly why though.

Knock on FD's visuals as you please, at least the foreground, the part of the stage you must keep an eye on, remains stationary so there's little strain on the eyes.

Wait, FD isn't banned? Could have sworn it was because of the changing red and blue suns

 

[FamilyTeam]

I was playing some less serious matches with Ganondorf against my friend this weekend. We ended up on Lylat once, and there was this time I tried to recover but my Up Special went absolutely the wrong way and I accidentally flew in the direction of the ship's engines.
I somehow teleported from the engines straight to the ledge. Meanwhile, a few matches before that, I tried falling to the ledge as Lucina to snap onto it from above and she completely ignored the ledge's existance and I got KO'd.
Something isn't right with the ledges in that place at all. Especially after the "Rosa getting 100% damage from a Gyro" business.
If you haven't seen that tweet, here it is for convenience sake:

Who's brilliant idea was it to make Lylat legal since Brawl? Stage is trash and does stupid crap like this. pic.twitter.com/hddcagkNrn

— ✨Starlight Aurora✨ (@StarlightAurora) August 19, 2016

Also, this is my 1500th post, wooooo

 

[Yoshister]

It's so nice to use a broken character that potentially loses to only three characters ( , , and ) .

?

Now the two opponents have staled moves which can influence the matchup, however slight it may be.

Can't this be remedied by SDing?
Just give everyone an extra stock.


I for one am not a fan of transforming stages that transform the whole stage (Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Skyloft, etc.). I feel they get in the way of the match without added enough to the meta to warrant legalization imo.

I'd be down for legalizing Umbra Clock Tower though.

 

[Murlough]

Wait, FD isn't banned? Could have sworn it was because of the changing red and blue suns

Um, pardon me if this comes across the wrong way. But how do you post here not knowing what stages are legal.

I don't know how thats even possible.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The stage vibrating and the camera zooming out are exactly why though.

Knock on FD's visuals as you please, at least the foreground, the part of the stage you must keep an eye on, remains stationary so there's little strain on the eyes.

Ya I uh, can't emphasize this enough. Zooming cameras are bad for motion sickness if it happens frequently.

Sonic Adventure 1 I can only play for about 15 minutes max without feeling like I'm going to hurl because of its camera.

Metroid Prime I love but can't play for more than about 30 minutes. Camera's wrong for me. Battlefield Bad Company I tried out and ran into the same time limit.

Even very tiny differences can set me off: I can play CoD games just fine. Watching people play BO3 or AW can set off my motion sickness if they player is running around jumping/turning constantly too much. The very tiny difference in field of view between Borderlands 1 and Borderlands 2? 2 is unplayable for me because of the change.

Bayonetta's stage is no good. Can't do it. And it being legal would sadly be an unfair advantage for those playing against me or have the same kind of situation as me.

Can't be done, can't be legal.

 

[ARGHETH]

Wait, FD isn't banned? Could have sworn it was because of the changing red and blue suns

Umm...
When was the last tournament you watched?
Like, every major in the past couple months that I can think of had several top 16 matches on FD.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Umm...
When was the last tournament you watched?
Like, every major in the past couple months that I can think of had several top 16 matches on FD.

Um, pardon me if this comes across the wrong way. But how do you post here not knowing what stages are legal.

I don't know how thats even possible.

I usually lurk here, and I was told FD was apparently banned for being too distracting, whichalso applies to Umbra Clock Tower

 

[Fenny]

I usually lurk here, and I was told FD was apparently banned for being too distracting, whichalso applies to Umbra Clock Tower

oh wow i thought you were joking lmao

 

[Mr. Johan]

?
Can't this be remedied by SDing?
Just give everyone an extra stock.

Well, can't argue that one.

On a side note, this 8P smash thing can be a way to bring in Castle Siege again (It stays on the 1st phase in 8P Smash, giving stage lists a "close-quarters" stage Sm4sh could have like Melee with Yoshi's Story and Brawl with Frigate Orpheon), as well as Norfair. I'm not opposed to trying it out as long as all the details are ironed out.

 

[blackghost]

pokemon stadium 2 on 5 player could be feasible in a top 8 onward only because tos or other players could SD and avoid any outside interference from staled moves but is that really worth it? I'm not sure. I'd rather see stages like uct given real chances. every legal stage except fd has "jank" I've never see anything on uct come close to getting carried away or my opponent being saved on town and city or smashville.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, can't argue that one.

On a side note, this 8P smash thing can be a way to bring in Castle Siege again (It stays on the 1st phase in 8P Smash, giving stage lists a "close-quarters" stage Sm4sh could have like Melee with Yoshi's Story and Brawl with Frigate Orpheon), as well as Norfair. I'm not opposed to trying it out as long as all the details are ironed out.

On the logistic side of things:

1) Would have to back out of the regular smash settings and into the 8-man just to play one of those stages

2) Would have to add an extra stock and an extra minute to the timer

3) Add 3 CPU and max out their handicap

4) Kill all of the CPU, SD, and get back to your spawn position in under a minute. If it wasn't done in time, have to restart the match.

Is it doable? Yes. But its uh, arguably adding more time to a match than changing to 3 stock does, and most TOs won't go for that even. (This change is adding on lets say at least 1:30 to the clock each time one of those stages are selected no matter what. 3 stock simply has the potential off adding on 1-2 minutes but doesn't always)

 

[Locke 06]

I'd rather make mods a tournament standard than go through 8 player smash and kill CPUs before a match.

Pre-game focus is a thing.

Also, distracting stages is totally a thing. If you need to react to a dash and the ENTIRE SCREEN is trying to grab your attention with visually stimulating effects, your reaction time will be worse. In no way are DH or FD (everything white) nearly as bad as UCT.

 

[ARGHETH]

We're still arguing about 3-stock and guest xxxx miis. There isn't really much of a chance that this is going to happen.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Actually, I remember this happened a lot of times: While FD's background is too busy exploding and making everything all white, some things can be harder to see. Samus and ZSS' plasma whip basically becomes invisible and and ZSS' Neutral B too. A few other things also suffer from this but not to the same extent, like Mario's fireball, Fox's lasers, etc.
Final Destination in general is just a massive eyesore in this game. I heard Omega FD doesn't do this, though, right?

 

[ARGHETH]

I heard Omega FD doesn't do this, though, right?

Nah, Omega FD's the same.

 

[Yikarur]

Umbra Clock Tower is moving downwards, is zooming in and out and is vibrating a lot.
The motion sickness comes from the stage moving downward. Any other stage moves in the facing direction which doesn't really cause sickness of that kind but because Umbra Clock Tower is not moving in your facing direction but downwards and really fast it can cause brain confusion which causes dizzyness.

Vibration and Zooming isn't really a problem. It's mainly the fast moving backround that causes serious problems.
FD is just very bright at some points. I don't think anyone who is used to it really has a problem (except for color blind people)

 

[LRodC]

Do people really have this much of a problem about the moving backgrounds of UCT? If it was such a big issue, it wouldn't even be allowed to be in the game in the first place, similar to Electric Soldier Porygon in the Pokemon anime. I personally have no problems with it being legal as a counterpick, and I think it would be incredibly asinine to ban a stage just because some people have issues with the background.

Pretty much nobody is giving the stage a chance.

 

[ligersandtigons]

if FD gives people headaches too, why hasn't it been banned and instead use an Omega as an official FD replacement?

 

[FullMoon]

Isn't Omega Palutena Temple used in Europe instead of FD?

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

if FD gives people headaches too, why hasn't it been banned and instead use an Omega as an official FD replacement?

Some regions have been at least trying to do that for a while. I know Xanadu was trying to get people to play on Omega Palutena's. Not sure if they're still enforcing that though.

 

[Solfiner]

Isn't Omega Palutena Temple used in Europe instead of FD?

That and Gaur Plains are the most common ones. We still use normal FD sometimes though.

 

[Murlough]

Do people really have this much of a problem about the moving backgrounds of UCT? If it was such a big issue, it wouldn't even be allowed to be in the game in the first place, similar to Electric Soldier Porygon in the Pokemon anime. I personally have no problems with it being legal as a counterpick, and I think it would be incredibly asinine to ban a stage just because some people have issues with the background.

Pretty much nobody is giving the stage a chance.

Um, no. I'm calling bull here. When Umbra was released everyone gave it a chance. It was legal for a good bit before it was finally banned. If the stage actually hurts players by making them motion sick then thats about as good a reason as it gets to ban the stage.

Imagine for a sec that you are the type of person who gets motion sickness. Would you feel like having a stage you ALWAYS have to ban would be fair? If you don't always ban that stage you run the risk of throwing the game and maybe even the whole tournament. That is not right. (My dad has really bad motion sickness so I know full well how bad it can be.)

 

[Krysco]

Oooh, stage discussion. Here's a shameless, potato quality plug for anyone interested in Skyloft:

As for the other stages, I've got no problem with Lylat or Duck Hunt other than the latter looking hideous. I have little problem with Skyloft, Wuhu, Castle Siege, Delfino or Halberd but then I'm probably in the minority. I would have no problem with UCT but I tend to lose where the heck I am and projectiles too.

Mods were never accepted before so I can't see that happening now, plus Nintendo sponsors or helps with tournaments or something and I doubt they'd be pleased with modded versions of their game being used. I can imagine a lot of people would be happy if we just got Yoshi's Island Brawl as dlc for the Wii U version. Oh, and I agree that having both Dreamland and Battlefield sucks.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Um, no. I'm calling bull here. When Umbra was released everyone gave it a chance. It was legal for a good bit before it was finally banned. If the stage actually hurts players by making them motion sick then thats about as good a reason as it gets to ban the stage.

Imagine for a sec that you are the type of person who gets motion sickness. Would you feel like having a stage you ALWAYS have to ban would be fair? If you don't always ban that stage you run the risk of throwing the game and maybe even the whole tournament. That is not right. (My dad has really bad motion sickness so I know full well how bad it can be.)

Then I have a potential idea. If someone is proven to have motion sickness, then UCT simply gets banned by default when that player is involved. If you're proven to not have motion sickness, then UCT is fair game unless you have to fight someone who has it

 

[Mr. Johan]

Smash tournaments typically don't have medical records of every participant.

One quick lie, and suddenly they don't have to worry about not being able to ban a stage they want gone.

 

[Murlough]

Then I have a potential idea. If someone is proven to have motion sickness, then UCT simply gets banned by default when that player is involved. If you're proven to not have motion sickness, then UCT is fair game unless you have to fight someone who has it

In a perfect world its a great idea. However, this isn't one. Anybody can just say they have motion sickness and ban the stage if they don't want to go there. Might as well keep it banned if it comes down to that.

I wish our community would let mods be a thing. It'll never happen though. I'd love a legal pokemon stadium or delfino.

 

[blackghost]

Then I have a potential idea. If someone is proven to have motion sickness, then UCT simply gets banned by default when that player is involved. If you're proven to not have motion sickness, then UCT is fair game unless you have to fight someone who has it

that's never gonna happen. I dont know howhat common motion sickness among people playing VIDEO GAMES is but honestly uct doesn't have any complaints

I wish our community would let mods be a thing. It'll never happen though. I'd love a legal pokemon stadium or delfino.

Why would delfino need to be moded?

 

[LancerStaff]

Actually, I remember this happened a lot of times: While FD's background is too busy exploding and making everything all white, some things can be harder to see. Samus and ZSS' plasma whip basically becomes invisible and and ZSS' Neutral B too. A few other things also suffer from this but not to the same extent, like Mario's fireball, Fox's lasers, etc.

At least those things travel in predictable patterns... Pit's arrows are invisible and can really be anywhere during that time. At least it's not 3DS white Dreamland where it's permanent, lol.

 

[Murlough]

that's never gonna happen. I dont know howhat common motion sickness among people playing VIDEO GAMES is but honestly uct doesn't have any complaints


Why would delfino need to be moded?

So it never gets the walkoff section? It could just stay the way it is on startup.

I know some people like the stage the way it is but the walkoff sections are baaaad.

 

[Nu~]

At least those things travel in predictable patterns... Pit's arrows are invisible and can really be anywhere during that time. At least it's not 3DS white Dreamland where it's permanent, lol.

...isn't that bad for the pit player as well?

 

[LancerStaff]

...isn't that bad for the pit player as well?

If the Pit is looking at his arrows he's doing it wrong.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

In a perfect world its a great idea. However, this isn't one. Anybody can just say they have motion sickness and ban the stage if they don't want to go there. Might as well keep it banned if it comes down to that.

Smash tournaments typically don't have medical records of every participant.

One quick lie, and suddenly they don't have to worry about not being able to ban a stage they want gone.

In my country, if a student is sick for an absurd amount of time, a doctor's note is required. Ideally, a Smasher would be required to get a doctor's note and give the name and the number of where the doctor works, so you can fact check. If they turn out to be fibbing, punish them heavily. Granted, this looks like it'll just take more time, but I believe UCT should be legalized and if motion sickness genuinely is a factor, then simply make it so that people who have motion sickness don't play there and get factchecked

 

[Murlough]

In my country, if a student is sick for an absurd amount of time, a doctor's note is required. Ideally, a Smasher would be required to get a doctor's note and give the name and the number of where the doctor works, so you can fact check. If they turn out to be fibbing, punish them heavily. Granted, this looks like it'll just take more time, but I believe UCT should be legalized and if motion sickness genuinely is a factor, then simply make it so that people who have motion sickness don't play there and get factchecked

It just seems like too much unnecessary hassle. On top of being the first complex ban which doesn't do the idea any favors.

I doubt it will ever happen and I personally don't think it should. The stage isn't worth all the effort needed, especially if you factor in majors with hundreds of players.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Meanwhile Rosalina just hits down B while the screen flashes white and doesn't have to care about invisible projectiles. (Don't do this in close range of course.)

Umbra Clock Tower causing motion sickness is an issue that I unfortunately can't weigh in on much because the stage doesn't bother me in the slightest and I don't really get motion sick in general. Ideally we could go by an honor system where people say if they're motion sick or not, but it's possible to lie in order to get the free ban.

Question for those affected by the stage: Does the 3DS version cause similar problems? The smaller screen and lower level of detail in the background may be helpful factors, but I don't really know for sure.

 

[Pancracio17]

Wouldnt an extra stage and an extra ban mitigate the issue of "if your motion sick you have to ban it"? After all with the extra ban, if you do ban because of motion sickness, you just play like if it were the previous ruleset. This would change play for if someone decides tp ban other stuff though and im not sure how much.

 

[CodeBlue_]

Um am I on the character competitive impressions thread right now? Because while stage legality discussion is a yellow topic, I don't see the discussion leaning towards being relevant towards this thread right now.

So... if Umbra was legal as a cp and we had two bans, how do you think this would affect the meta? I actually really don't know what characters benefit from Umbra but I think two stage bans would be nice considering DH, Lylat and Umbra are pretty controversial.

plus I don't have have to take zero suit to bf every time she cps

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Wouldnt an extra stage and an extra ban mitigate the issue of "if your motion sick you have to ban it"? After all with the extra ban, if you do ban because of motion sickness, you just play like if it were the previous ruleset. This would change play for if someone decides tp ban other stuff though and im not sure how much.

The other person would be free to use their 2 bans however they wanted to however. The motion sick person is effectively stuck with one ban.

This isn't like the colourblind rule for doubles that doesn't effect anything really. Putting the stage in in any form screws over people who get motion sick from it, in one way or another. And you can't force people to "prove" it, that's both intrusive and what you expect tournament players to get a doctor's note? Over something a doctor might very well not write a note over because its so minor?

 

[C0rvus]

That sucks, a perfectly good stage we can't use. The reason is a good one, though. But it brings up the questions. FD can be a problem for some players, but we have Omega stages. Would be great if we could add a stage and a ban, though.

Or get rid of Duck Hunt.