Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LRodC]

Abadango lost to Rich Brown at SSC

Assuming Abadango used Mewtwo, do you know how volatile the Mewtwo ditto is? A single grab can end a stock around the early 100% range with rage (and around 117% without if you want to complain about rage), and just about every other one of Mewtwo's moves will kill the other around the same time if they hit. This is why I'm not a big fan of the ditto. I'm not surprised by this upset at all. It's to be expected with the character archetype. Rich Brown isn't a slouch either.

 

[T4ylor]

The stage list doesn't help with consistency either. Most places have adopted the one from Evo, where you can't stop Cloud from going a triple platform stage and juggling you, you can't stop ZSS from getting either Town or Dreamland, etc

 

[ぱみゅ]

The stage list doesn't help with consistency either. Most places have adopted the one from Evo, where you can't stop Cloud from going a triple platform stage and juggling you, you can't stop ZSS from getting either Town or Dreamland, etc

This is kinda irking how you can't avoid the BF/Dreamland/another (either Lylat or T&C depending on why you want to avoid the platforms) combo, there simply are not enough stage bans because there are not enough stages accepted by a majority of the community.

 

[ARISTOS]

The stage list doesn't help with consistency either. Most places have adopted the one from Evo, where you can't stop Cloud from going a triple platform stage and juggling you, you can't stop ZSS from getting either Town or Dreamland, etc

Alternatively, you can't avoid a Sonic taking you to one of FD/Smashville/Duck Hunt.

Out stagelist isn't that great atm and an additional stage + a ban might soothe things over but what stage to add?

 

[Murlough]

Maybe incorporate omegas with walls as a different stage from omegas that resemble FD?

Or give Umbra another shot....or remove dreamland, lylat, and/or duck hunt (#screw those stages.)

 

[FamilyTeam]

Are we talking stages, now?
Can we talk about Lylat?
Why is that stage legal again? I feel like it's only legal because it's the least illegal one.

 

[C0rvus]

If only mods were acceptable and we could run Pokémon Stadium 2 as a neutral, and add another stage ban. That's the dream, man.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Are we talking stages, now?
Can we talk about Lylat?
Why is that stage legal again? I feel like it's only legal because it's the least illegal one.

Besides the tilting, there's legit nothing wrong with Lylat.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Lylat is pretty much soft banned by most players unless they play someone like....say , Pika, Cloud or Ryu. Almost never see people go to it unless they specifically hope to jank you with the tilting.

 

[Murlough]

Besides the tilting, there's legit nothing wrong with Lylat.

You haven't seen what I've seen on twitter then. Some serious jank can take place on that stage, though situational. Robs gyro trapping Rosa for over 100% damage for instance...

Duck Hunts Z axis shenanigans make me hate it as a Mewtwo main. I don't know if it warrants a ban though.

 

[EternalFlare]

I've been thinking a lot about Smash 4's inconsistency lately and I think I've narrowed down some of the underlying causes outside of the obvious ones.

Smash 4 is just inherently designed to give lesser players a stronger chance of winning and I'm not just talking about rage. Here are some other factors that help bridge the skill gap:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.
Recoveries are easier than they have ever been thanks to no ledge hogging and buffed recoveries in general (an obvious example of this is Fox/Falco). In previous games top players would do option coverage/flow chart precise edge guards so if you were a lesser player that wasn't stellar at mixing up your options you'd be screwed. Now a lot of characters just make it back for free. Some force you to think more like Cloud but that's an exception, not the norm.

2.
Rolls are better frame data wise than in previous games on average. Also hitboxes are largely nerfed in Smash 4 making it harder to catch rolls. This is important because it means simply rolling gets you out of a lot of pressure situations on the ground you'd just have to have dealt with in previous games. Rolls are punishable but you had to have known it was coming and been at the perfect spot to wait for the punish already, or hard read it. It's why random forward rolls are so effective with so many characters in the game, if the opponent is mixing it up and it's unexpected, they are quite safe.

3.
Air dodges are arguably better than before despite adding landing lag unlike Brawl. This is because frame data wise in the air, air dodges are actually superior to Brawl. That's why some characters can air dodge and then still perform an action in one short hop. Many have obscenely low ending frames to punish them. So it's not rare to see someone totally have the read or reaction but miss the air dodge punish anyway because it recovered too quickly during a raw juggle situation (not talking about 50/50s). Not to mention with no threat of a ledge hog just retreating to the ledge while getting juggled is extremely safe with most characters.

4.
Less crucial advanced tech to master. Smash 4 has PPs, the newly discovered step dashes and more. But none of these things are absolutely necessary to play the game at high level (most top players don't even use PP after almost 2 years). Compare this to Melee, 64 or Brawl.

In Melee if you can't L cancel (also applies to 64) dash dance or wavedash well, you are at too big of a disadvantage. In Brawl there were plenty of character specific ATs that were essential to their play. Icys weren't nearly as good without the chaingrab infinite, Falco wasn't nearly as threatening without DACUS, good SHLs or IAP, ZSS was far better with glide tossing and precise item control etc.

SDI is also far less effective in previous games and it used to be a huge difference maker at higher levels of play. This was another layer of depth to master that new players no longer have to worry about as no one can take as much advantage of it. Rarely anyone lives or gets out of moves/combos they shouldn't thanks to crazy SDI. So typical follow-ups remain largely the same whether you hit an average player or a top one.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All in all I think Nintendo definitely succeeded in what they set out to do. In Smash 4 due to all these reasons you always feel like you have a chance no matter how good your opponent is. No, randoms are not going to win or even make top 8s at majors. But they always have a shot of upsetting established tournament threats early on in bracket, especially in a BO3.

 

[ぱみゅ]

How does anyone get screwed by Lylat's tilting while recovering? Legit question.
I've been playing that stage for like 7 years now and I have never EVER been unable to recover.

Another serious thought, Umbra Clock Tower is a legit stage. People like to exaggerate its 10-second long traits, just like they like to exaggerate Lylat's and Duckhunt's quirks.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If we're seriously talking about adding stages to the list (although that should probably be its own topic), Umbra Clock Tower is the most obvious candidate IMO. It's got Battlefield's high ceilings, but with platforms that come and go like Town & City, so you can't just ladder up to the top all the time.

(The music is all kinds of awesome, too.)

Criticisms (that I can anticipate):

• Temporary walkoff form
  
• Solid platform form
• That one form with a platform underneath the stage
• QAC glitch on clock face
  
• Fortitudo

Rebuttals:

• Temporary walkoffs are nowhere near as big an issue as permanent ones. We put up with Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege for ages, and their walkoffs are much more prevalent (Delfino) and long lasting (Castle). Umbra's are rare and short lived by comparison.
  
• The solid platform is a) temporary, b) moves right to left so it c) can't be circle camped effectively and d) does not appear frequently enough to be a major issue.
• The platform under the stage comes with grabbable ledges, which makes it easier to pursue a player trying to take advantage. Like all other platforms in the stage, it's also temporary.
• QAC glitch was patched out to the best of my knowledge.
  
• Fortitudo does exactly nothing to the battle and isn't even always visible due to how the stage enters and exits Purgatorio basically at random. At most, it's a mild distraction, but speaking from personal experience I barely notice it anymore. (Playing Bayonetta 1 and beating the crap out of it helps too.)

If Smash 4 mods ever take off in popularity I have a whole list full of ideas to modify existing stages to make them more palatable, but I don't want to completely derail the thread so I'll just stick with what's actually playable.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You haven't seen what I've seen on twitter then. Some serious jank can take place on that stage, though situational. Robs gyro trapping Rosa for over 100% damage for instance...

So, because it has situational jank, we should ban this stage?

I'm sorry, but that is frankly stupid...

Duck Hunts Z axis shenanigans make me hate it as a Mewtwo main. I don't know if it warrants a ban though.

I don't think it would, honestly. If anything, DHD and tree camping might be the reasons it eventually gets banned (assuming it will, of course).

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Legalize Delfino (I wish)

I think treating some omegas as different stages might help. Omega Green Hill has the flat sides plus I hear the grass actually affects traction which could have a effect (if small) on a battle?

 

[FamilyTeam]

My problem with Lylat is the ledges.
I don't know about you but be it Brawl or be it Smash 4, I have trouble snapping onto them. They almost seem glitched. Sometimes I snap onto them from a mile away when I'm using Ganondorf yet it also just refuses to cooperate a lot in some cases, such as bonking your head under the platform and not snapping onto it.

 

[Guido65]

Link [who for some reason just won't get juggled very well at all].

Fox can still juggle link pretty well with uptilt and upair as his physics leave him quite vulnerlable to fox's juggling and lack of a combo breaker makes him even more prone to juggling but overextending on link is a pretty big risk because his down air is much larger then it looks.

Spoiler: Link's Down Air

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If we're seriously talking about adding stages to the list (although that should probably be its own topic), Umbra Clock Tower is the most obvious candidate IMO. It's got Battlefield's high ceilings, but with platforms that come and go like Town & City, so you can't just ladder up to the top all the time.

Criticisms (that I can anticipate):

• Temporary walkoff form
  
• Solid platform form
• That one form with a platform underneath the stage
• QAC glitch on clock face
  
• Fortitudo

Rebuttals:

• Temporary walkoffs are nowhere near as big an issue as permanent ones. We put up with Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege for ages, and their walkoffs are much more prevalent (Delfino) and long lasting (Castle). Umbra's are rare and short lived by comparison.
  
• The solid platform is a) temporary, b) moves right to left so it c) can't be circle camped effectively and d) does not appear frequently enough to be a major issue.
• The platform under the stage comes with grabbable ledges, which makes it easier to pursue a player trying to take advantage. Like all other platforms in the stage, it's also temporary.
• QAC glitch was patched out to the best of my knowledge.
  
• Fortitudo does exactly nothing to the battle and isn't even always visible due to how the stage enters and exits Purgatorio basically at random. At most, it's a mild distraction, but speaking from personal experience I barely notice it anymore. (Playing Bayonetta 1 and beating the crap out of it helps too.)

If Smash 4 mods ever take off in popularity I have a whole list full of ideas to modify existing stages to make them more palatable, but I don't want to completely derail the thread so I'll just stick with what's actually playable.

I agree with all of this.

Banning a stage because of temporary issues and a glitch that is now currently patched out seems over the top when said issues aren't really problems to begin with, but rather because, as I see it, UCT is something new on a scene that is rather conservative in its stage picking (Duck Hunt being the sole exception), going as far as banning stages that were previously legal in Brawl (Halberd, Castle Siege)

Umbra Clock Tower's versatility makes it an interesting stage for any and all matchups, not to mention that it has hands down some of the best songs on Smash 4's MASSIVE library. So why not give it another shot now that Pikachu isn't OP on it anymore?

#LegalizeUmbra

My problem with Lylat is the edges.
I don't know about you but be it Brawl or be it Smash 4, I have trouble snapping onto them. They almost seem glitched. Sometimes I snap onto them from a mile away when I'm using Ganondorf yet it also just refuses to cooperate a lot in some cases, such as bonking your head under the platform and not snapping onto it.

That's because of the tilting, if I recall.

Simple as that!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Legalize Delfino (I wish)

I think treating some omegas as different stages might help. Omega Green Hill has the flat sides plus I hear the grass actually affects traction which could have a effect (if small) on a battle?

I do not believe the differences between Omega forms are major enough to warrant treating them separately from FD in the stage list. The main draw of both is the utter lack of platforms; everything else is basically window dressing.

*snip*

I'm quoting you to flag your alerts more than anything else. (Seriously you are IMPOSSIBLE to tag with @.) Can a dedicated stage thread be in the cards soonish?

 

[FamilyTeam]

I'm quoting you to flag your alerts more than anything else. (Seriously you are IMPOSSIBLE to tag with @.) Can a dedicated stage thread be in the cards soonish?

ぱみゅ is "pamyu" in Japanese hiragana, if you need that.

 

[ぱみゅ]

ぱみゅ is "pamyu" in Japanese hiragana, if you need that.

You'd still need to change your keyboard settings and allow hiragana typing to be able to tag me. I've been tagged before.

I'm quoting you to flag your alerts more than anything else. (Seriously you are IMPOSSIBLE to tag with @.) Can a dedicated stage thread be in the cards soonish?

Funny enough, I don't get notifications when quoted.

I guess I can try to get one done, it would be published Soon™ (shoutouts to Shaya).
In the meantime I guess this thread will do.

 

[Pancracio17]

If we're seriously talking about adding stages to the list (although that should probably be its own topic), Umbra Clock Tower is the most obvious candidate IMO. It's got Battlefield's high ceilings, but with platforms that come and go like Town & City, so you can't just ladder up to the top all the time.

(The music is all kinds of awesome, too.)

Criticisms (that I can anticipate):

• Temporary walkoff form
  
• Solid platform form
• That one form with a platform underneath the stage
• QAC glitch on clock face
  
• Fortitudo

Rebuttals:

• Temporary walkoffs are nowhere near as big an issue as permanent ones. We put up with Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege for ages, and their walkoffs are much more prevalent (Delfino) and long lasting (Castle). Umbra's are rare and short lived by comparison.
  
• The solid platform is a) temporary, b) moves right to left so it c) can't be circle camped effectively and d) does not appear frequently enough to be a major issue.
• The platform under the stage comes with grabbable ledges, which makes it easier to pursue a player trying to take advantage. Like all other platforms in the stage, it's also temporary.
• QAC glitch was patched out to the best of my knowledge.
  
• Fortitudo does exactly nothing to the battle and isn't even always visible due to how the stage enters and exits Purgatorio basically at random. At most, it's a mild distraction, but speaking from personal experience I barely notice it anymore. (Playing Bayonetta 1 and beating the crap out of it helps too.)

If Smash 4 mods ever take off in popularity I have a whole list full of ideas to modify existing stages to make them more palatable, but I don't want to completely derail the thread so I'll just stick with what's actually playable.

I hope umbra is legalized, i really, really like the stage and its plataform layouts. Maybe we can add two bans and this extra stage? Never i know

 

[FamilyTeam]

You'd still need to change your keyboard settings and allow hiragana typing to be able to tag me. I've been tagged before.

This would be the fastest way, for me: Just going to Google Translate and typing in "pamyu" with the romaaji recognition button on.

I probably shouldn't be so used to doing it like this, but I am.

 

[soniczx123]

Lylat is pretty much soft banned by most players unless they play someone like....say , Pika, Cloud or Ryu. Almost never see people go to it unless they specifically hope to jank you with the tilting.

Bayo's pretty good there too

 

[Murlough]

So, because it has situational jank, we should ban this stage?

I'm sorry, but that is frankly stupid...


I don't think it would, honestly. If anything, DHD and tree camping might be the reasons it eventually gets banned (assuming it will, of course).

....I don't understand why everyone needs to act like a total ***** online.

You said the only thing bad about the stage was the tilting. I said it also had jank. No where did I say we should ban it solely on the situational stuff.

EDIT: I even said it was situational! Lord almighty learn some manners!

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Yeah. Umbra Clock Tower would be your best bet if any other stages were added. It is pretty tame overall.

Not to mention, another good thing about it is that it looks visually appealing. Now this might seem like a minor praise, but it could be more important than just that. For example, it could greatly increase spectator enjoyment and subsequently raise tournament views as a result. So, especially from a casual player's point of view, this could make tournament matches more interesting and varied to watch, since UCT would add new visuals and audio to the mix. After all, I know that there are a good handful of people who grow tired of watching Smashville, despite said stage having nothing inherently wrong with it and being very balanced.

Past UCT, most other stages have blemishes that would be unsatisfactory from a competitive standpoint, to varying degrees.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You'd still need to change your keyboard settings and allow hiragana typing to be able to tag me. I've been tagged before.


Funny enough, I don't get notifications when quoted.

I guess I can try to get one done, it would be published Soon™ (shoutouts to Shaya).
In the meantime I guess this thread will do.

Cheers. (I also learned a smidge about typing Japanese today. Wheee~)

Other than Umbra Clock Tower, the only stages I would consider realistic candidates for addition to a tournament stage list are Skyloft and Wuhu Island. Both are similar to Delfino Plaza in their core concept, but IMO better overall because they lack the ceiling shenanigans. That said, they both come with their own sets of baggage.

Skyloft's main issue is that the island itself has a hitbox attached to it while the stage flies around. If you ask me, the cases where this actually decides a match in a meaningful way are fairly rare, but I know it's been discussed a lot in the past and it would be remiss of me to gloss over it. The primary instances that come to mind are when the stage is flying around the underside of the island, and just before it lands in front of the Statue of the Goddess. Other than this, however, the individual forms it takes are mostly benign. Compared to Delfino Plaza, it has fewer walkoffs and absolutely no water to speak of. In exchange, it has a few forms that could potentially lend themselves to keepaway strats, but since all forms are temporary it's debatable whether that would become a centralizing feature. The platforms that fly players around tend to be more vertically structured.

Wuhu Island has a few damaging hazards scattered around, but none of them can affect a player onstage. It's more horizontally oriented than Skyloft but several forms have water to prevent players from falling to their death. It has a comparable number of walkoffs to Delfino Plaza.

Neither is a slam dunk but they're also not completely unsalvageable.

 

[Pazzo.]

Still waiting for Umbra Clock Tower to become legal. It'll happen.

 

[Yikarur]

Umbra Clock Tower is amazing but sadly it inflicts motion sickness. Thats a serious problem and thats why I stopped discussion for the stae (even though I think it would be the perfect 7th stage instead of duck hunt)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Umbra Clock Tower is amazing but sadly it inflicts motion sickness. Thats a serious problem and thats why I stopped discussion for the stae (even though I think it would be the perfect 7th stage instead of duck hunt)

Ya that right there is pretty much a perma-nail in the coffin. Sucks because design wise its fine. But some people like me are very sensitive to motion sickness. Just no good way to deal with that aspect.

I do think Delfino and Castle Siege should be legal though.

 

[Seagull Joe]

It's so nice to use a broken character that potentially loses to only three characters ( , , and ) .

 

[blackghost]

its always amazing to me that delfino, UCT, and skyloft became so quickly marginalized based on random (and often) borderline unrepeatable situations yet the absolute nonese of shiekville platform and people dying to platofrms on town and city isnt. dynamic stages are a GOOD thing. it rewards players that have stage awareness and thats part of the game.
UCT at least doesnt have the ultimate camping spot.
if a bayonetta igoes to the top tree on duck hunt hat character can force her to move?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

PS2 on 5+ player mode would be amazing and easy to implement. I don't know why nobody does it :|

 

[ぱみゅ]

PS2 on 5+ player mode would be amazing and easy to implement. I don't know why nobody does it :|

Because you need to begin the game with 5+ players, and that, logistically, is very unpractical.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

3 lvl.1 CPUs with a 300% handicap are easily taken out within a few seconds. It's not hard to do and PS2 in its neutral form is both unique and good enough to make it worth it.

 

[Mr. Johan]

3 lvl.1 CPUs with a 300% handicap are easily taken out within a few seconds. It's not hard to do and PS2 in its neutral form is both unique and good enough to make it worth it.

Now the two opponents have staled moves which can influence the matchup, however slight it may be.

 

[Fenny]

Umbra Clock Tower is amazing but sadly it inflicts motion sickness.

W-What?

 

[Y2Kay]

I think Greninja has done just enough to earn his way into the lower end of high tier.

iStudying has been struggling to get funds to travel to america again, but several greninja's have really stepped it up in terms of results in his absence. Venia has been doing much better in the NY region, and has begun to travel out of state. He won a Xanadu with wins over Mr. E and Pink Fresh, and got 25th at Super Smash Con with wins over Gomamugitya, Rango, and WaDi. Not bad at all for his first ever national. Tasty Tofu was pretty prominent on the Japanese wifi scene, he did begin to show up to Japanese tournaments and has done very well for himself, with wins over Ginko and Tatsutsuyo. Some has been on the resurgence with wins over KEN and Umeki. He also took first place in SHI G's wifi league. Shinjoebi is easily one of the youngest shinobi at the age of 15, but he's manaaged to show up to a few regionals and has done well. He also took 1st on the Minnesota power rankings Illusion and P2P have held it down in Texas, and Techei has managed to keep pace in MDVA, with 2 wins over k9, recently. Keekay is a relatively unkown puerto rican greninja, but placed in top 8 at their most recent national, kudos man. Dark Aura has continued to place well in Canada. Elexiao became 1st on the French PR and has done well in multiple French and European regional tournaments. Eddy has also kept up his momentum and still places well. Shadowclaw became power ranked in his homeland of Denmark. Very good

Good job clan. ◥θ┴θ◤

I won't make a habit of this since "I told you so" posts annoy me, but I'm so happy to see the BR cut that 13-char high tier BS from last tier list and present the 20-ish sized high tier that I always said this game deserved.



I actually agree with you that Greninja is better than Pikachu, or at least will be the more effective character long-term barring a gamebreaking Pika AT discovery, but I'm surprised to see him so high.

̶G̶r̶e̶n̶i̶n̶j̶a̶'̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶h̶i̶g̶h̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶u̶z̶ ̶V̶e̶n̶i̶a̶'̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶o̶p̶i̶n̶ ̶d̶a̶t̶ ̶b̶o̶o̶t̶y̶

 

[Cutie Gwen]

W-What?

The stage is moving downwards constantly, which causes said sickness, FD causes it too iirc. Last time I heard about it it was banned for being 'too distracting'

 

[Mr. Johan]

Also @Lylat.

I have played enough against them here to know that Ike gets mercilessly trolled by Lylat.

There was a situation where the Ike Quick Draw'd right into the stage ledge, but then went under and skimmed across the entire underside of the ship and died.

Yeah, Ikes don't like it here.