Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ShadowGuy1]

Speaking of Earth, Japan has now updated their PR and it is very interesting https://mobile.twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/794192244836364288


This PR just restates how dominate of a region Japan is. Shuton being above KEN and Earth is also quite surprising. Any thoughts?

 

[Bowserboy3]

On Reddit there was an interesting post using the results Das Koopa compiled to make a 1.16 tier list. The main change is that unlike Das Koopa's lists, he extends past top 16's into top 64 at big tournaments while limiting category 1 tournaments to just top 8.




The above resulted in this:

Spoiler: freeziebeats 1.16 list

Here are how characters trended over time:

Spoiler: Trendlines

I couldn't find something similar in Das Koopa's thread to compare but thought it might bring up some discussion.

This is most interesting. My thoughts:

• Seeing Marth theoretically 11th place blows my mind. Just goes to show how a few meaningful buffs brings in the representation. While I feel that when everything is taken into consideration (options, MU's etc) he falls down a handful of places, but people can't say Marth's results are lacking anymore. The word "Marth" finally has some fear in it in Smash 4.
• I'm a pretty big advocate for Captain Falcon (as in I feel people are still too harsh on him, but that's my personal opinion), so seeing him quite high up is nice.
• I am also glad Bayonetta is not top 5. She's incredible, but discussion on her here has been rife lately. Her being within the top 5 would have just been the icing on the cake. She's still doing well in the trendlines, though, which is expected.
• Everything else is about as expected really.

---

Speaking of Earth, Japan has now updated their PR and it is very interesting https://mobile.twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/794192244836364288


This PR just restates how dominate of a region Japan is. Shuton being above KEN and Earth is also quite surprising. Any thoughts?

The top 3 is kind of what I expected. However, have I missed something? I'd have expected to see Abadango higher than 12th. Perhaps he's just more well known in the west than what equates to his overall skill in Japan?

Edit: Ayyyyy, Fuwa getting in there at 20th. You go girl!

 

[ARISTOS]

More thoughts on it later, but:

• I am also glad Bayonetta is not top 5. She's incredible, but discussion on her here has been rife lately. Her being within the top 5 would have just been the icing on the cake.

Be careful. This data takes in all of 1.16, in which Bayonetta was heavily nerfed right at the start of. This would obviously cause a depression in results as people drop her/figure her out again.

She's most recently trending first if you look at the trendlines.

 

[TDK]

The top 3 is kind of what I expected. However, have I missed something? I'd have expected to see Abadango higher than 12th. Perhaps he's just more well known in the west than what equates to his overall skill in Japan?

It mentioned that it's based off of results from Japanese tournaments only, so Aba's lower since most of his results come from the west.

Ranai at second surprises me a little bit because I would have expected him to be lower due to Activity. But he's incredible, so he deserves it.

Also T at 19th makes me very, very happy. Link now has a PR'd player in arguably the hardest region in the world, and that makes me extremely satisfied.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Speaking of ranai, how versatile of a character does villager appears to be when ranai uses him in y'all's opinion?

I feel like I'm watching a definite top tier when ranai turn up.

 

[Ramserss]

Speaking of ranai, how versatile of a character does villager appears to be when ranai uses him in y'all's opinion?

I feel like I'm watching a definite top tier when ranai turn up.

There is a villager in my area that does well until top 3 where he loses to mewtwo and mario, and I think that happens to villager in general. Does well until they hit a top tier player on a top tier like mario or mewtwo.

 

[Piipp]

This is most interesting. My thoughts:

• Seeing Marth theoretically 11th place blows my mind. Just goes to show how a few meaningful buffs brings in the representation. While I feel that when everything is taken into consideration (options, MU's etc) he falls down a handful of places, but people can't say Marth's results are lacking anymore. The word "Marth" finally has some fear in it in Smash 4.
• I'm a pretty big advocate for Captain Falcon (as in I feel people are still too harsh on him, but that's my personal opinion), so seeing him quite high up is nice.
• I am also glad Bayonetta is not top 5. She's incredible, but discussion on her here has been rife lately. Her being within the top 5 would have just been the icing on the cake. She's still doing well in the trendlines, though, which is expected.
• Everything else is about as expected really.

---


The top 3 is kind of what I expected. However, have I missed something? I'd have expected to see Abadango higher than 12th. Perhaps he's just more well known in the west than what equates to his overall skill in Japan?

Edit: Ayyyyy, Fuwa getting in there at 20th. You go girl!

Yeah, he doesn't do as much in Japan as he does west as far as I know.

 

[my_T]

Speaking of ranai, how versatile of a character does villager appears to be when ranai uses him in y'all's opinion?

I feel like I'm watching a definite top tier when ranai turn up.

Lol I'm less surprised about Ranai's ranking and more surprised at people being surprised at Ranai's ranking.

The guy is stupidly good as a player. Villager is solid but I think it's more so that people have a hard time beating Ranai on a player vs player level.

Zero's dominance with Diddy in the Sheik MU made it look like Diddy beat pre-patch Sheik convincingly. There's obviously underlying factors at work though

 

[Ramserss]

I was wondering, what is everyone thoughts about yoshi at a higher level, to give an example players such as The wall and Raptor compared to other yoshis such as Blob.

 

[blackghost]

More thoughts on it later, but:



Be careful. This data takes in all of 1.16, in which Bayonetta was heavily nerfed right at the start of. This would obviously cause a depression in results as people drop her/figure her out again.

She's most recently trending first if you look at the trendlines.

yeah bayo results vanished for about half of month then pink won the saga and her results have continued since

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Speaking of ranai, how versatile of a character does villager appears to be when ranai uses him in y'all's opinion?

I feel like I'm watching a definite top tier when ranai turn up.

Villager is, like, the best character nobody's ever talking about. Better than more hyped-up characters like Marth imo.

 

[|RK|]

It occurs to me that if Smash Switch has further updates to balance, we'd have to find changes without the benefit of data mining...
---
On topic: I think Villager is capable of almost anything, and Ranai is just the right player to use him. As someone said earlier - anything a player can do, the character can do. Ranai's genius just works really well with Villager's wide array of tools.

 

[TDK]

I'd actually be really interested in seeing how well a player could do in a big tournament just by dittoing his opponent, considering how many top players have expressed dislike of the Ditto.

 

[Ramserss]

I'd actually be really interested in seeing how well a player could do in a big tournament just by dittoing his opponent, considering how many top players have expressed dislike of the Ditto.

when doing it for the joke goes to far lol

 

[TheGoodGuava]

most people don't have a damned clue about how to maintain advantage

really sad, honestly, when you don't know your own character's safe extensions.

It's hard for people to maintain advantage when most players have no idea what the advantage state is in the first place. Players usually just chalk it up to your combo game, its one of the dumbest things I see people do in ANY fighting game
To me, advantage in Smash is:

-Combo ability
-Juggling ability
-edgeguarding ability
-Ledge game
-how easily accessed/safe kill moves are
-how early they kill

Furthermore, no aspect of it should be looked at in a vacuum. How well each part flows into the another is a huge factor. A character who's bad at juggling and bad at the ledge may have a ridiculous offstage game, but who cares when they have no way of actually getting you offstage in the first place. Take Fox for instance, his advantage state is almost perfect in every way. At low percents hes going to combo you until you're put in juggle situations where he excels. He's either going to eventually kill you with an up air or an up smash, or you're going to try and land on the ledge, another area he excels. If he gets you in any position he wants you in you might as well just SD.

 

[Rizen]

I find it interesting that there is only 1 Diddy and Sheik, co-mained at 11th. I wonder how the lack of strong Diddy/Sheik presence affects their meta.

 

[Y2Kay]

It's been a hot moment since a Greninja has been power ranked in Japan.

Hopefully Some will come to tournaments more consistently too. I've seen him beat quite a few of the players on this list, so he's definitely capable.

 

[FullMoon]

It's actually a little surprising to me that Greninja only falls from 14th to 16th in that tier list when Category 1 tournaments seemed to be where a good portion of where Greninja's points came from and limiting them to just top 8, I was expecting him to take a worse hit than that.

I guess it's surprising even me how consistent Greninja has been lately.

 

[freeziebeatz]

On Reddit there was an interesting post using the results Das Koopa compiled to make a 1.16 tier list. The main change is that unlike Das Koopa's lists, he extends past top 16's into top 64 at big tournaments while limiting category 1 tournaments to just top 8.




The above resulted in this:

Spoiler: freeziebeats 1.16 list

Here are how characters trended over time:

Spoiler: Trendlines

I couldn't find something similar in Das Koopa's thread to compare but thought it might bring up some discussion.

Ayy that's me. Yeah I was inspired by his project to do this and I remember on that thread people talking about that type of format so I ended up doing it myself.

 

[verbatim]

It occurs to me that if Smash Switch has further updates to balance, we'd have to find changes without the benefit of data mining...

People will break it before patches stop if it has a similar lifespan to smash 4.

 

[my_T]

When talking about adavantage in smash why does nobody talk about safety? It's not always about hitting hard, juggles, combos, and having strong reliable kill options.

Sheik is a good example. Extremely safe. Needles combined with the absurd lack of end lag and start-up on her normals. Needles helps her get through zones and keep people out. Once she gets in you have to deal with her insane frame data.

You don't have to actually hit your opponent to put yourself in an advantage state. Safety on whiff or block is an extremely important part of advantage in fighting games

 

[DungeonMaster]

How does everyone feel about these days?
Where do you guys all think she's headed in the meta?

I think the answer is headed no where.

There was some hope over the past year that the crippling very basic disadvantages loaded upon the character could be compensated for by extreme tech and high skill. We have some excellent players, very dedicated, but the final analysis is: No.

I keep wanting to think Sakurai's balance is inspired, but I always return to realizing it's very crude, he rarely fixes and instead, doubles down. Once he gets an idea in his head, he doesn't second guess,

He gave her the worst grab, worst roll, worst basic jab combo, worst basic projectile (homing missile, 60 frames ) and most importantly the worst hitbox / hurtbox ratio in the game.

He then gave the character good, but strict heavily damaging combos a heavy weight and floatiness.
But he was profoundly stupid and conservative (and biased towards lightweights) in many ways, having up-tilt and d-air be techable on ground makes life miserable for no damn reason. It's just dumb, and I hate him, particularly since patches removed this property from other character's ground spikes.

The advantages as well, many other characters have much better. Bayo has combos and a counter which guarantees a fully charged smash (at minimum, or better). And her hitbox/hurtbox ratio is WAY more favorable with a frame 6 "normal" grab.
Then you do like what he always does, pile on the small things like very generous invincibility, meaty hitboxes and yes, you can't compete.

Really if you just took the basic, basic elements: can't roll, struggles to grab i.e. struggles vs, the most basic defense, shield, and basically can't trade attacks then you would expect something AMAZING in return. Something, really really good. Some polarizing advantage. It's not there.

Tons and tons of things just irritate the @#$ out of me in his design decisions. Frankly if NX smash doesn't change things I'm not buying. Sorry Nintendo. 10 000 matches later and 90% win ratio and I'm still frustrate. And fix the damn net code if you're listening, GGPO is like 10 years old and infinitely better.

Rant over.

 

[Das Koopa]

when you have 58 characters a few are bound to not work out in the design department lol

 

[Deleted member]

when you have 58 characters a few are bound to not work out in the design department lol

I mean, Samus has been **** for 8 years straight..

Same goes for & (who's been practically unviable in every game) but still. I guess developer overlooks are meant to happen.

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean, Samus has been **** for 8 years straight..

Same goes for & (who's been practically unviable in every game) but still. I guess developer overlooks are meant to happen.

Isn't she at least decent in Melee? (Along with Ganondorf, and Jiggly actually being great) I know the whole "anyone who isn't top tier is ****" thing in both that game and Brawl, but still...

 

[Wintermelon43]

Isn't she at least decent in Melee? I know the whole "anyone who isn't top tier is ****" thing in both that game and Brawl, but still...

She's great in melee. But she's still bad in that game in terms of design. (As was most of the other top tiers)

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't she at least decent in Melee? (Along with Ganondorf, and Jiggly actually being great) I know the whole "anyone who isn't top tier is ****" thing in both that game and Brawl, but still...

By eight years I mean since 2008. Samus was considered to be low/bottom tier in Brawl.

But yeah, she's pretty good in Melee. Though the power level between characters in that game was borked.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I mean, Samus has been **** for 8 years straight..

Same goes for & (who's been practically unviable in every game) but still. I guess developer overlooks are meant to happen.

Admittedly, Samus has been better than all those three for that time period.

I think I can guess the bleeped out word, but I think calling her that is a bit much; perhaps in Brawl, maybe, but Smash 4, design choices aside, she functions a lot better than a fair few characters around her, and despite some of her flaws, has some things that others would kill for (Zair, solidly damaging combos, actual reliable and realisable shield break and KO confirms, an actual good recovery, just to name a few things).

At risk of opening a can of worms, I think Samus is just above the bottom 10 (actually, her placement on the 4BR tier list is pretty accurate to me), if only because she's been pretty stagnant overall (putting emphasis on this word; as I am from the UK, and Afro Smash is a thing, y'know - yay regional bias).

I think she's arguably better than a couple characters just above this range, but she doesn't really have the reason to say so (like, common/consistent results would be a good start), so where she currently is is fine.

In terms of if I think she will fall, I don't think she deserves to. I only think she'll fall if characters go up past her by a noticable amount (basically, if you understand me, I don't think she will fall, but if she does, I think it will more be to do with others moving, not Samus actually becoming worse, like say, what happened with Roy, or Wario for example).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Samus I suspect gets the short straw in SSB4 partly because of online play.

Put it this way: imagine you don't know what Samus is like at all in SSB4 or who she is even. One of the designers sits you down and describes the potential build for the character. "A chargeable projectile that can kill, homing and powerful missile options, bombs that can be used as traps/ways to avoid other character traps/shield breaking, amazing aerial combos, good survivability combined with a solid recovery, a tether grab with great range that can be used in the air to combo into the charge shot, some of the fastest smash attacks in the game. And you're fighting this character online with at least input delay"

No way you wouldn't start thinking that character might end up OP'd or at least unbearably annoying to fight against in lag. You'd want them toned down in some way. So the missiles get more lag added on, the grab becomes super slow, her CQC options get hit hard so that in theory once you get past her projectile spam online she has a very difficult job getting you back out.

Not saying it was done correctly or that its well balanced at all. But that was at least probably part of the logic behind it.

Don't ask me about Bayonetta or Cloud, I got no clue. LSD may have been involved.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Sadly aside from Melee, has been getting the short end of the stick when it comes to Smash Bros. has a short stick too, but at least for Smash 4, he's been getting more noteworthy results. I'd personally would like to see some characters altered for future games, Samus being the prime example (hooray for terrible joke). I always thought it would be a neat idea (not saying it's a good idea), to let Samus use the powers of her various beams. Wave Beam could do a lot of shield damage, Plasma Beam can inflict lingering damage, etc. I don't know, I just feel that didn't get a whole lot of passion put into her.

Then again, at least Samus is consistent for the most part. Being a player myself, I always have to anticipate how good or how bad he'll be. It's pretty irritating. But that's a discussion for another day.

 

[soniczx123]

Samus I suspect gets the short straw in SSB4 partly because of online play.

Put it this way: imagine you don't know what Samus is like at all in SSB4 or who she is even. One of the designers sits you down and describes the potential build for the character. "A chargeable projectile that can kill, homing and powerful missile options, bombs that can be used as traps/ways to avoid other character traps/shield breaking, amazing aerial combos, good survivability combined with a solid recovery, a tether grab with great range that can be used in the air to combo into the charge shot, some of the fastest smash attacks in the game. And you're fighting this character online with at least input delay"

No way you wouldn't start thinking that character might end up OP'd or at least unbearably annoying to fight against in lag. You'd want them toned down in some way. So the missiles get more lag added on, the grab becomes super slow, her CQC options get hit hard so that in theory once you get past her projectile spam online she has a very difficult job getting you back out.

Not saying it was done correctly or that its well balanced at all. But that was at least probably part of the logic behind it.

Don't ask me about Bayonetta or Cloud, I got no clue. LSD may have been involved.

It was at that time that they realized that online-play means nothing and that offline play should be the main audience they should balance for.

Cloud and Bayonetta are characters designed for competitive play. In a game where many characters were not.

 

[Nah]

The most baffling things about Samus to me are a) that Charge Shot can't be charged in the air despite literally every other chargeable, storeable projectile in the game can be charged in the air and b) Samus without her power suit is better than her with her powersuit

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sadly aside from Melee, has been getting the short end of the stick when it comes to Smash Bros. has a short stick too, but at least for Smash 4, he's been getting more noteworthy results. I'd personally would like to see some characters altered for future games, Samus being the prime example (hooray for terrible joke). I always thought it would be a neat idea (not saying it's a good idea), to let Samus use the powers of her various beams. Wave Beam could do a lot of shield damage, Plasma Beam can inflict lingering damage, etc. I don't know, I just feel that didn't get a whole lot of passion put into her.

I'd say the reason Samus doesn't get a whole lot of "passion" put into her is likely because of Sakurai wanting to keep characters similar between games. For example, he gave Dr Mario his own slot in this game, as opposed to being a Mario costume swap, just because he didn't want to hurt/upset his previous fans in Melee by not giving him Pills, Tornado etc.

Samus (and literally every other veteran) hasn't had a major overhaul or major additions likely due to a similar reason. I can respect this reason, but you can still give characters good moves that work while keeping them the same (why Jab, why?).

 

[|RK|]

I think the answer is headed no where.

There was some hope over the past year that the crippling very basic disadvantages loaded upon the character could be compensated for by extreme tech and high skill. We have some excellent players, very dedicated, but the final analysis is: No.

I keep wanting to think Sakurai's balance is inspired, but I always return to realizing it's very crude, he rarely fixes and instead, doubles down. Once he gets an idea in his head, he doesn't second guess,

He gave her the worst grab, worst roll, worst basic jab combo, worst basic projectile (homing missile, 60 frames ) and most importantly the worst hitbox / hurtbox ratio in the game.

He then gave the character good, but strict heavily damaging combos a heavy weight and floatiness.
But he was profoundly stupid and conservative (and biased towards lightweights) in many ways, having up-tilt and d-air be techable on ground makes life miserable for no damn reason. It's just dumb, and I hate him, particularly since patches removed this property from other character's ground spikes.

The advantages as well, many other characters have much better. Bayo has combos and a counter which guarantees a fully charged smash (at minimum, or better). And her hitbox/hurtbox ratio is WAY more favorable with a frame 6 "normal" grab.
Then you do like what he always does, pile on the small things like very generous invincibility, meaty hitboxes and yes, you can't compete.

Really if you just took the basic, basic elements: can't roll, struggles to grab i.e. struggles vs, the most basic defense, shield, and basically can't trade attacks then you would expect something AMAZING in return. Something, really really good. Some polarizing advantage. It's not there.

Tons and tons of things just irritate the @#$ out of me in his design decisions. Frankly if NX smash doesn't change things I'm not buying. Sorry Nintendo. 10 000 matches later and 90% win ratio and I'm still frustrate. And fix the damn net code if you're listening, GGPO is like 10 years old and infinitely better.

Rant over.

So much hate for Master Hero Super Fly. Pretty sure he didn't do the balancing.

The most baffling things about Samus to me are a) that Charge Shot can't be charged in the air despite literally every other chargeable, storeable projectile in the game can be charged in the air and b) Samus without her power suit is better than her with her powersuit

Yet she can do this in her games :/

 

[verbatim]

I can't find the source rn but I remember hearing that the reason Sakurai thought that Samus was the best character in the game in the Nintendo only alpha build of Smash 4 was because her down tilt killed at like 60%, and that scared them off from even trying to buff the character until almost a year after the game had launched.

 

[Nu~]

I can't find the source rn but I remember hearing that the reason Sakurai thought that Samus was the best character in the game in the Nintendo only alpha build of Smash 4 was because her down tilt killed at like 60%, and that scared them off from even trying to buff the character until almost a year after the game had launched.

...Really Sakurai?

...If this is true I'm pretty sure this is just gonna end up pissing DungeonMaster off even more lol.

I mean, why would one overturned tool cause you to dismantle the entire character and leave them for the sharks, then a year later throw their carcass a bone...
Instead of you know, just weakening the tool.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

...Really Sakurai?

...If this is true I'm pretty sure this is just gonna end up pissing DungeonMaster off even more lol.

I mean, why would one overturned tool cause you to dismantle the entire character and leave them for the sharks, then a year later throw their carcass a bone...
Instead of you know, just weakening the tool.

This is the same guy who changed Wario's F-smash because "he was basically throwing himself at the opponent"

 

[Rizen]

that Charge Shot can't be charged in the air despite literally every other chargeable, storeable projectile in the game can be charged in the air

can't charge in the air either. I guess and were too OP and needed a nerf but and didn't (sarcasm smh).
A lot of design choices are very strange and illogical. can store a needle charge but 's bow and 's phantom can't. 's Din's fire causes freefalling. 's Bullet climax, 's shadow ball and 's Limit charge can be shield canceled but Zelda/Link's projectiles can't. 's KO punch gets hit out of him and grants no stat bonuses but 's limit only is lost when he's KOed and makes him the fastest air character in the game and heavier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It was at that time that they realized that online-play means nothing and that offline play should be the main audience they should balance for.

Cloud and Bayonetta are characters designed for competitive play. In a game where many characters were not.

Highly, highly doubt that. One look at SSB4's online play numbers would squish that. Online ladders as well just puts the nail in the coffin. They finally acknowledge competitive play, but they ain't balancing strictly for it. End of the day, we're a pretty small piece of the pie. We're lucky in that a lot of things we want overlap with what they would want to do when keeping in mind online play/casual play but like... then you have Jigglypuff.

More realistically: "We like making 3rd party characters awesome + we want DLC characters to be good because money/not angering the companies that own those characters". Possibly throw in a splash of "several parts of our balancing team have moved onto other projects so we're shorthanded" or "Eh we'll fix it for the Switch version".

 

[Mr. Johan]

Giving so many bones to DLC characters was definitely intended.

Mewtwo buffs because of his light weight and his large hurtbox puts him more in line with Rosalina's level of control and intention. You can marginally excuse that.

Cutting Lucas's tether grab endlag downtime to the point of being objectively superior to Link's, Samus's, and Tink's? While also having grab combos and a killing combo, while Link and Samus have only the former, and Tink doesn't have any at all? What.


Here's the caveat though: All the DLC was made in a time of development where they and they alone got the focus. The initial roster had to share focus with other characters, so a few things slipped through the cracks.

If Switch Smash is indeed Smash 4 upgraded, then the roster overall will have more retooling, possibly to the point where they all will have something as explosive as the DLC has (Lucas's grab, Cloud's Limit, Ryu's soft combos strings, Mewtwo's everything, Bayo ladders).