Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[chaos11011]

Two of the top dogs coming to the US is pretty huge. Hopefully they do well! As a Duck Hunt main myself, I think we lose hard to Cloud, Bayo, and Rob, with a lot of disadvantages against Shulk, Pikachu, Rosalina, and Corrin. We have other losses, but those are the big ones.

Duck Hunt has a massive boon in his frame 1 Can. There's a lot of match ups where you keep the Can spawnable to use to get out of combos. This includes, but isn't limited to Mario Utilt/Uair, Fox Utilt/Fair/Uair, and Olimar's Jab Jab Grab.

Duck Hunt can also, instead of camping with the Can or keeping inside him, camp around the Can. Holding shield with a Can is a powerful option. Speaking of, holding a Can in shield near the ledge can stage spike characters like Marth who like to poke through the stage with their recovery.

Duck Hunt's biggest asset is his ability to frame trap. In years to come, I forsee Duck Hunt excelling in limiting/forcing options and causing huge damage/loss of stocks. A common misconception is Duck Hunt has no kill moves. He can kill with UTilt, UAir, BAir, and NAir. It's easy to push players into corners and make it easier to kill off the side. Can set ups and properly spaced Fsmashes can also kill. Slipping out isnt an issue when you space it like a tipper. All 3 of our damaging specials can set up into kills too. The You3 Combo (Back Air Can, Can hits them, theyre sent towards us, and we UAir) is easy to hit and pretty noncommital from far away. Clay Pigeons can lead to either close range Can (sending both chars to the blastzone) into BAir for a kill at 90 OR Double Clay Pigeon into UAir at 115. Gunmen leads to any aerial if you time it right.

Duck Hunt has a plethora of ledge traps and can move with the Can to cover himself by doing foxtrots and pinging the Can inbetween trots. When Duck Hunt players get better, we will be able to edgeguard off stage with a Can following us or covering the ledge. There's a lot about this character that is left to discover. All 3 projectiles are just begging to start footstool set ups. Soft Nair can jab lock. We just need time to develop.

We don't have that many players and most dont get big results, but we are a loving fanbase who will keep pushing into the heights we think our character can achieve. We have a lot of options in neutral. A lot of playstyles to choose from. Campy Duck Hunt is what most think the character is, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. He is extremely technical but hopefully the pay off of our hard work will be huge.

 

[Nu~]

Talk about interactions, this is what you can learn online.

Megaman throwing his metal blade from his item hold wont hit a crouching puff, but the btoss does.

I learned this online, and it got me some bracket wins vs a local PR puff.

We arent here to explain why 30k pot bonuses only happen locally. Online isnt as competitive, im sorry. I ladder tons, so I believe its a great tool, dont get me wrong... so share what you learn.

It doesnt matter where you learned it if its true. You wouldnt have to be defending wifi if you just talked about how good abk is as a chase (its really damn good), since this is something we experience in the game regardless of how we play.

But yea, offline bayo would be chasing you some amount of frames faster, so it would be even better. Though your defense options would also come out faster and... bla bla bla. see how a connection change complicates things? Lets just focus on the game ya'll.

...

Back to the discussion of characters with certain options: mega drastically wants for a combo breaker. Nair is slow, and dair is slooowwww. If you can juggle him, do that. He has to keep you out tons to make up for a juggle, or go for his riskier but higher reward CQC fights to make it up quicker.

But, he does fall reaaallly fast. So if you go too high he can fall past with an AD into uair, or closer to the ground he can quickly fall with a fair or bair. These options suck vs shield into good OoS options though.

So, all of the above means fox uair is just horrific for Mega. Fox without the uair and Mega would actually probably win by a lot, but this is reality where fox has a 16% uair so it happens.

Mega Man's disadvantage state is pretty bad but I'm more curious about ways for characters to deal with his rather infuriating neutral game.

I'm beginning to think it isn't worth it at all to shield mega man's pellets in mid range. All it does is keep you at square one and conditions you to stop and stare as mega man walks up and grabs you as a mix up after the 1st/2nd/3rd pellet.
What if people just braved the damage and took advantage of the low hitstun by running in after the last pellet is shot? While mega man can mix up between shooting 1-3 pellets, it isn't difficult to react after the last pellet is shot since they have a set time frame between when they can be shot. You can't delay them.


If you're fox, and mega man shoots you at mid to max distance with a pellet, why not take the damage and run in instead of suffering shield drop lag as mega man prances around? 30 frames of lag is more than enough to punish considering the low hitstun of pellets + fox's run speed. However, this is only if mega man is moving away from you as he's shooting. If he's moving forwards, you may get hit by the Nair and now you're back at the gates of the castle. You also have to take into account your damage because the hitstun will increase as you get into the red.


If mega man is moving forwards, I would advocate either shielding and punishing him hard with an OoS option (don't drop shield against him) or rolling in. Now rolling in is a good option that I don't see often enough.

If mega man is either retreating or advancing with AAA, rolling in can help you bypass the wall and infiltrate the castle. Of course, you can't do this every time or mega man will just space so that he hits you with the Nair orrrrr shoots once, waits, and then nails you with that faux shoryuken .

Of course long lasting aerials help too like sex kicks, Mario's dair (even Pacman's dair helped me get through before) and the like, but they shouldn't be the only thing you use to get in. Mega man can usually beat those hitboxes with advancing Nair. Although some dash attacks are extremely good at dealing with that too.

I wonder if spot dodging at the right time can help as well...I'll have to test it.


Point is, pellets have more counterplay than we currently see. Slow characters may not be as doomed as we thought before, and speedy characters may be more of a danger then previously noted. You don't always have to take to the skies. Honestly...if you have bad airspeed, bad air acceleration, and/or bad aerial frame data you have no business jumping at mega man while he's shooting away. Luigi should try spot dodging/rolling/walking in and throwing a fireball after the last pellet instead of shielding all day/jumping in and making a fool of himself.



I really like these comments from the mega man boards on how effective pellets are overall:

Pellets don't quite stuff approaches rather just breifly interrupts it but at the cost of stage control. Nair and dtilt however does stuff things and has knock back.
There I remember this one random bayo just spamming jab and scatt kept using the pellets instead of nair (up close) or something with appreciable hitstun and found himself cornered and eating a full bayo jab.

The context was he just got a lead on this bayo and was playing this defensive keep away but got trapped by a simple silly strategy . Lemons (projectile) aren't meant to "stuff" things in a traditional sense.

Edit: found the set
It happens at 7:42

I believe this gives more insight onto uses for Lemons.

I think "just use lemons" or "lemons are good for blank" is much too general. Different hitbox and different movement can make all the differents especially since lemons jabs Ftilt and Nair all have varying hitboxes and knockback. heck the lemon alone have several different types of knockback based on distance.
Also because smash uses tracers you can also "drag" hitbox with your movement to make them more have more range (moving) and disjointed (retreating) or less disjointed (adavncingt). An extreme case of this is melee ness yo yo glitch

The projectile lemon is very good for interrupting, since it confuses opponents and they won't take advantage of the minicule hitstun consequently giving them a god frame advantage (about a 1/3 of a second, if they get hit by the max range pellet)

The opponent can counter lemons with a positional attack and eat the lemon, and effectively "trading." Once in they can use a direct attack which megaman has trouble dealing with because lack of priority in close range (besides nair).

Basically I think what happened to ScAtt was that he focuses on interrupting attacks using lemons and he just got baited by the bayo's trolling. He was at high percent and opponents that are hungry for stocks tend to throw out moves, so he was planning on getting chip damage using lemons. He was probably scared of their position thinking they could stuff out his aerial escape and take a stock with a bair or nair and also bayo jab beats nair. Then he continued to get backed into the corner waiting for an opening that was never given. It's a silly example to pick apart since it was just trolling but it has significance.

Short hop Nair is pretty good for stuffing/walling opponents short hop approaches. A good example would be the ike where he relies on short hop nair and bair to get in. Attempting to interrupt his approaches with lemons ends up with him out maneuvering your lemon and him getting in big damage. Where as walling his aerial approaches works wonderfully.
His Dash attack can be a scary mixup where he can combine a position attack with a Direct attack if you attempt to interrupt it with a lemon, he can purposefully get his dash attack interrupted and dtilt/jab and if you don't catch it in time you eat a dash attack

Walling with Nair is pretty ineffective if they are below you because nair has a bad hitbox for hitting opponents below megaman, but a good hitbox for hitting opponents above megaman.

Triple short hop nair (nair-ff nair- sh nair) is ridiculous as a Direct attack if you are in. Kamemushi does this a lot. This works wonderfully after "getting in" with a JC metalblade. This kind of lemon is perfect for pushing or preserving stage control.

Your video seems to be more of opponents not knowing how to deal with Lemons than a working around opponents counter-strats to your lemons. Perhaps show more than just your successes or show comebacks?

Spoiler

View attachment 118228 Captain falcon had stage control
View attachment 118230 View attachment 118227 Megaman had little stage control and couldn't retreat safely

I especially like the images he uses at the end in the spoiler tag

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

IMO there's a very big gap in disadvantage between DHD and say, Mac, even if they're both on the same end of the spectrum, and Sheik's not equipped to exploit his weakness to rage (which imo is a bigger factor in him being bad than his recovery).

Above the stage, yes there is a small gap. Off stage, no. Above the stage DH can at least try and use an aerial and get out of a string or maybe get a can out but it still isn't all that much and it still isn't amazing. All Mac has is a stubby, 2 frame nair (if it had any range at all it would be amazing). Off stage though DH's recovery is pretty much free. There isn't a mix up that you shouldn't be able to easily cover, and there isn't even a hit box. Mac at least has a few mix ups going for him on some decent enough hit boxes.

 

[Aaron1997]

Great news for the OSfrogs

 

[chaos11011]

Above the stage, yes there is a small gap. Off stage, no. Above the stage DH can at least try and use an aerial and get out of a string or maybe get a can out but it still isn't all that much and it still isn't amazing. All Mac has is a stubby, 2 frame nair (if it had any range at all it would be amazing). Off stage though DH's recovery is pretty much free. There isn't a mix up that you shouldn't be able to easily cover, and there isn't even a hit box. Mac at least has a few mix ups going for him on some decent enough hit boxes.

Duck Hunt can bust out of anti air moves with the Can (unless it's disjointed, we go through hell against Rosa and Cloud) or stall in the air while the Can falls with Up B and fastfall near it. The trick is to sandwich the Can inbetween you and the opponent so they have to get past the Can to get to you. Even if they powershield it, youll already be out of lag and ready to go, resulting in little to no punish.

Duck Hunt off stage is pretty exploitable, but we Duck Hunt mains aren't easy targets either. I've fought many players claiming our recovery free and when playing friendlies with them,there was a good amount of mix up involved to keep myself from being edgeguarded a good 80% of the time. One of which was a Pikachu player. Timing the Up B is important. Sometimes you want to go for the ledge, sometimes you want to fastfall near a Can on stage, sometimes you want to hang under the lip of the stage for a while, sometimes you want to recover super high and fastfall to the ledge, and sometimes you want to weave in and out as you're making your way to the stage. Along with the gunmen and Can, both can be active at the same time while recovering, there's enough to keep you safe. Just play smart, mix up your recoveries, and you'll be fine. It's essentially the same as mixing up your ledge get ups.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Duck Hunt can bust out of anti air moves with the Can (unless it's disjointed, we go through hell against Rosa and Cloud) or stall in the air while the Can falls with Up B and fastfall near it. The trick is to sandwich the Can inbetween you and the opponent so they have to get past the Can to get to you. Even if they powershield it, youll already be out of lag and ready to go, resulting in little to no punish.

A lot of what you said about this makes sense but....can't the opponent simply attack the can and try to throw it into you or put themselves so close that DH gets caught in the explosion when the opponent gets hit?

 

[Jehtt]

Mega Man's disadvantage state is pretty bad but I'm more curious about ways for characters to deal with his rather infuriating neutral game.

I'm beginning to think it isn't worth it at all to shield mega man's pellets in mid range. All it does is keep you at square one and conditions you to stop and stare as mega man walks up and grabs you as a mix up after the 1st/2nd/3rd pellet.
What if people just braved the damage and took advantage of the low hitstun by running in after the last pellet is shot? While mega man can mix up between shooting 1-3 pellets, it isn't difficult to react after the last pellet is shot since they have a set time frame between when they can be shot. You can't delay them.

Mega Man is going to start hitting you with sweet spot nair if you do this. Aside from just mixing it up with a forward jump nair, F-tilt lemon > f-tilt lemon > nair lemon combos. You're back to square one again. In fact, that can even put you off-stage which is worse than being back to square one.
Of course, you can then start hitting Mega Man out of the air or perfect shield grabbing him as he approaches. But then Mega Man has conditioned you into shielding/attacking again, which he responds to by being outside your range and using more lemons or his metal blade.
Mega Man's zoning is strong because his projectiles are so versatile and don't have one singular answer.

 

[Nu~]

Mega Man's zoning is strong because his projectiles are so versatile and don't have one singular answer.

Yet you cherry picked only one of the options I listed. I was saying that braving the damage and running in after the last pellet is shot works when the mega man is retreating with pellets. I gave many other solutions and options for the other scenarios you listed. Rolling in, spot dodging, OOS punishes against mega man's pellet approach, long lasting aerials, strong dash attacks...

I said this:
"However, this is only if mega man is moving away from you as he's shooting. If he's moving forwards, you may get hit by the Nair and now you're back at the gates of the castle. You also have to take into account your damage because the hitstun will increase as you get into the red."

I really hate saying this but...did you read the entire post?


Pellets are good but mega man mains tend to overrate them. People panic and make the worst decisions possible when they're getting pelted so his pellet game has seen inflated effectiveness at high level play.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I think we need an original topic of discussion on a character, so I want us all to talk about Link's (not-so-hidden) frame data that absolutely no one talks about for some reason, and that is his Bomb throws. Yes, his Bomb Throws, because they're actually scarier than we'd have originally thought.

Up Bomb Throw: Frame 11, FAF 21
Back Bomb Throw: Frame 9, FAF 21
Forward Bomb Throw: Frame 7, FAF 21

Now these three aren't exactly all that scary, outside of being able to act out of them pretty fast, but no, these aren't the scary ones. In fact, here's the really scary throws:

Down Bomb Throw: Frame 6, FAF 19
Dash Bomb Throw: Frame 4, FAF 19

Dash Bomb Throw, a Frame 4 attack that is FAF 19. An attack that is comparable in its speed to Diddy Kong's Down Tilt and what is basically Link's fastest attack. I acknowledge the fact that this can only happen with Bombs in your hand, but still, Link's got some scary frame data underneath that book cover of his. This all contributes to certain good Bomb Throw follow-ups that we see, but isn't talked about all that much, which is kind of disheartening. Link has two incredibly fast tosses and we've yet to touch up upon them and how they might be more relevant to the meta than we already know.

So let's not talk about anything Marth for the 100th time (I know it's going to happen sooner or later) and talk about something that is actually refreshing, even for frame data.

TL;DR If Link had an attack that's as fast as Diddy's D-Tilt, he has Dash Bomb Throw. The end.

Oh good you found the page on Kurgogane's website. The thing is, bombs need a frame to actually generate a hitbox once they are active and can detect hurtboxes, meaning that at earliest you would need to add a frame onto each of these start-up times. And comparing Dash throw to Diddy's D-tilt is dumb for many reasons, like how you actually need to have dashed forwards for at least 6 frames before you can even dash throw, or like how bombs can be caught, or like how if they are shielded they do absolutely nothing to shields whatsoever and are then free to be ignored or caught (unless thrown immediately), or like how following a dash throw that is shielded you end up with the worst possible spacing.

Is he still better than Rosalina or Cloud? No.

Alright, let me go bit by bit on how I'll tell you all this.

First off, with the first few questions, I've actually labbed this out and I've found some incredible results with the Dash Toss itself! The Dash Toss [when Link is running] covers more distance than a Glide Toss will normally. And secondly, when I decided to do an Initial Dash >> Dash Toss, here's where things become a whole lot more astonishing!

The aforementioned combination, I kid you not, actually covers between as much distance, if not more distance, than Link's Bombslide! And not only that, but this is also consistent, but it's easier to learn, and you still have the frame advantage than if you use Link's Bombslide overall. The combination nets you between a fourth to a third of Battlefield's distance depending on how late you want to throw the Bomb out of initial toss, which, if I remember correctly, is more than what Bombslide can do. And since this doesn't have to be frame perfect, a Link player should use this as their burst option. So it's essentially a Bombslide that has frame leniency and a different input, but definitely better frame advantage, is what I'm concluding.

Secondly, Toon Link's standard Bomb throw is 7 frames, just like Link, and 21 FAF, just like Link. For Toon Link, a Glide Toss forward is definitely better for him. Though I will say, Dash Throw is abysmal for Toon Link, since he has 36 frames of FAF unlike Link's 19.

And lastly, yes, Dash Throw can definitely be something that can catch opponents by surprise. Again, if you don't just do initial dash, this is basically your fastest option to hit any opponent with up close, especailly if both of you charge each other. This is definitely his fastest option.

A Glide Toss is a Brawl-exclusive tech. I think you mean JC Throw.
The fact that dashing then doing a delayed dash throw covers around the same distance as a bombslide in and of itself without counting the distance covered initially to actually start running before doing the bombslide is dumb. That'd be like comparing the distance covered by dashing then doing a delayed dash throw to a dash throw by itself. Also the amount of frames wasted before doing the delayed dash throw means you're not actually gaining anything; you are in fact losing. You actually go less far in the same amount of time than you would have if you had just run forwards and performed a normal dash throw on the same frame. You only think there's something special going on because you gain speed by doing the dash throw relative to the speed you have lost by stopping your dash first.
Any Link player who frequents the Link boards and reads and doesn't suck and doesn't play 3ds exclusively can bombslide consistently. It has been labbed dry, and the result is that we know the most consistent methods for performing it.
Bombslides are superior to dash throws because of the distance covered while actually throwing the bomb. This moves you closer to the opponent meaning that, from a distance further away than what a dash throw is capable of, you can combo out of the bomb into e.g. Fair or Grab. You cannot dispute this. Dash throw has it's place at closer range, but it cannot and should not replace bombslides.

I'll make a video showcasing it beside the Bombslides and Glide Tosses shortly.

Please don't. It'll just make more work for me as I try to stop the spread of misinformation.

 

[Jehtt]

I really hate saying this but...did you read the entire post?

I'll fully admit I missed about 4 pages of this thread and was skimming to catch up. My apologies, I'll read more thoroughly next time. However...

I gave many other solutions and options for the other scenarios you listed. Rolling in, spot dodging, OOS punishes against mega man's pellet approach, long lasting aerials, strong dash attacks...

This supports the point I was trying to make. All those options will work in different scenarios, but there is no catch-all. There are plenty of good answers to lemons but they all come with their own risks.

I also agree with you that pellets are overrated. They're only effective when used with his other tools, and don't work by themselves.

 

[Deleted member]

VGBC hosted a special S@X for charity, here's the top 10.

Smash @ Xanadu 174 (103 entrants, MD/VA)

1) Nairo
2) Pink Fresh
3) WaDi
4) Remzi
5) PootieTang
5) Zage
7) Black Yoshi
7) Zephyr
9) Tension
9) ZD
9) Iota
9) Promaelia

 

[Yikarur]

Black Yoshi was also playing Yoshi.

 

[Deleted member]

Black Yoshi was also playing Yoshi.

PGStats' poster showed him only using Bayo. Guess it was a mistake.

 

[chaos11011]

A lot of what you said about this makes sense but....can't the opponent simply attack the can and try to throw it into you or put themselves so close that DH gets caught in the explosion when the opponent gets hit?

If you see that the opponent is favoring hitting the Can, you time the pinging of the Can like you would power shield a move, and that cancels the momentum of the Can. There ARE times where I get caught in explosion, but it's often times intentional. The Can kills me later than it kills you. If we're both at high percents, even if it doesn't kill, I'd rather us both be in disadvantage than just me.

 

[Nu~]

I'll fully admit I missed about 4 pages of this thread and was skimming to catch up. My apologies, I'll read more thoroughly next time. However...

This supports the point I was trying to make. All those options will work in different scenarios, but there is no catch-all. There are plenty of good answers to lemons but they all come with their own risks.

I also agree with you that pellets are overrated. They're only effective when used with his other tools, and don't work by themselves.

Ah, no problem man.

Well we agree! I just wanted to show off some different ways of dealing with pellets other than shield/attack.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ah, no problem man.

Well we agree! I just wanted to show off some different ways of dealing with pellets other than shield/attack.

What are you thoughts on pac-man vs mega man in terms of how well they're able to deal with their weaknesses? Just wondering, since you did switch up.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Duck Hunt has a plethora of ledge traps and can move with the Can to cover himself by doing foxtrots and pinging the Can inbetween trots. When Duck Hunt players get better, we will be able to edgeguard off stage with a Can following us or covering the ledge. There's a lot about this character that is left to discover. All 3 projectiles are just begging to start footstool set ups. Soft Nair can jab lock. We just need time to develop.

I'm not a DH main but I DO love the character. Was gonna be my first main before I found Ness then Fox afterwards. But I like how you mentioned footstool setups cause DH can fs off of ANY special and I could do it first time in a game without even thinking (I missed the lock cause he falls different than Fox but that's just my problem). It's ESPECIALLY easy to fs off of a clay pigeon, but that's a bit harder to land in neutral considering you can't cover it with a gunman since it'll shoot the clay pigeon. But I feel like optimizing combos like this will help DH in the future just considering how intuitive his setups into fs are as well as how long nair lasts. His killing problems might never be mitigated, but being able to get consistent, low percent damaging combos will help him get people to kill percents then can > uair, utilt, clay pigeon > uair, hell even clay pigeon > dair all become a lot scarier.

He's a very under looked at, complex character. His setups are powerful and his wall is tough to get behind if setup properly. I honestly don't believe campy is how DH is meant to be played. I view him more as a moving wall. He NEEDS stage control to put pressure and when the opponent is offstage is when he's at his strongest considering how good his advantage is (and god is his uair so good). A DH being pressured into the corner is a DH that's about to lose. His mobility tells me that he's meant to move around the stage so people need to start doing that.

I do love uthrow killing at 200% though. It's always satisfying

EDIT: I still think he's a low-mid character with the possibility of rising to mid (probably 30-40 range realistically), but he's definitely got room to grow.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I hear Pit's solid but his swords aren't amiright?
Seriously though, I'm curious. Are there still people who hype the **** out of Pitty Pat? Because that's sad
Also congrats to ESAM for admitting Pika loses bad matchups.
Speaking of Pika, what is the general thought of him now other than 'can't kill'?

 

[Deleted member]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I hear Pit's solid but his swords aren't amiright?
Seriously though, I'm curious. Are there still people who hype the **** out of Pitty Pat? Because that's sad
Also congrats to ESAM for admitting Pika loses bad matchups.
Speaking of Pika, what is the general thought of him now other than 'can't kill'?

For all the **** people give Pit, Earth still routinely gets excellent placings.

I don't think highly of him (he's probably upper-mid or just mid) he's not that unimpressive. He's a decent grappler and his gameplan works the way he wants it to.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

For all the **** people give Pit, Earth still routinely gets excellent placings.

I don't think highly of him (he's probably upper-mid or just mid) he's not that unimpressive. He's a decent grappler and his gameplan works the way he wants it to.

I'm talking about people who go 'WOAH DOOD PIT'S SOOOOOOO GOOD!', Earth is a competent player, and competent players generally work around their character's flaws

 

[Yikarur]

I haven't heard people talking about Pit in ages. The character is dead.

 

[Deleted member]

If anything it feels like Pit (and moreso his counterpart) are so unpopular is because they don't have anything that stands out for them, or has any sort of wide appeal competitively in general. Mario is much more well-known as a character outside of Smash and as his games (people seriously forget how much character popularity can be a factor in rep, at any level of play really), and he in general is a more rewarding character than Pit while still keeping the all-rounder/balanced archetype in people's eyes. Even when saying that I see Mario as more a rushdown or grappler character than an all-rounder even if he can cover most situations.

 

[Nu~]

What are you thoughts on pac-man vs mega man in terms of how well they're able to deal with their weaknesses? Just wondering, since you did switch up.

I don't use mega man anymore lol, I ended up dropping him too. I get excited easily by the potential I see in new characters (hence why I came in here and showed off that setup) but I get bored just as easily. I guess I don't know what I'm looking for in a character ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


But anyways, from what I have learned, the matchup leans towards mega man's favor pretty heavily.


Pacman is trying to take down a castle with a multitude of lethal (yet unreliable) toys while Mega Man is trying to reinforce/adorn his castle with those same toys. The entire matchup is based around who has better control of the zoning tools and Mega Man takes control far easier.

So good news right?

Give Pacman enough time and he has an answer for everything mega man throws...

...but if you keep pressuring him he just explodes.


That's the main issue with Pacman: he has sort of an aura mechanic that's based on time rather than percentage.
All of his powerful set ups and crafty tricks take time to set up, are telegraphed, and have a ton of extra counterplay to boot. While mega man is easily out rewarded by Pacman when he gets going, mega man doesn't have to give him that momentum. Starting at square one hurts Pacman more than any other character.


The combination of Pellets and item tossed metal blade chews up Pacman's hydrant stalling and BF traps.
And if mega man catches your fruit and starts z dropping + pellet shooting...well...

 

[Y2Kay]

Unless Earth quit smash recently without my knowing, Pit isn't dead.

The character is still pretty good imo.

 

[Nu~]

I'm talking about people who go 'WOAH DOOD PIT'S SOOOOOOO GOOD!', Earth is a competent player, and competent players generally work around their character's flaws

Relax, Lancer hasn't been here in ages

If anything it feels like Pit (and moreso his counterpart) are so unpopular is because they don't have anything that stands out for them, or has any sort of wide appeal competitively in general. Mario is much more well-known as a character outside of Smash and as his games, and he in general is a rewarding character than Pit while still keeping the all-rounder/balanced archetype. Even when saying that I see Mario as more a rushdown or grappler character than an all-rounder even if he can cover most situations.

This is pretty much it right here. People are drawn to uniqueness and want a character that fully embodies their personal strengths/weaknesses. Many also want to use a character they love outside the smash bros series.


Pit is just...

normal.

He's so conventional and so bland that few people are attracted to him. He doesn't quite stand out.
I remember a while back that Earth said he likes Pit because of his normality and conventional play style. All of his tools are simple and none are really out there.

They should have given him his personality from uprising along with all the crazy and unique weapons he had access to in that game. Then I'd probably like him.



You know...maybe that's why I haven't found my main yet. My spirit animal isn't in this game...

Spoiler

With this crazy F***** I'd be running the streets ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Piipp]

You3's matchup chart. Not really sure how serious (or accurate) this is because a character with this good MUs would be seen so much more even with a -3 Cloud Matchup.

How the hell is DH a +2 matchup for DH

 

[Nu~]

How the hell is DH a +2 matchup for DH

Because You3 is a comedian and probably wants to emphasize how annoying that matchup is for both sides.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I haven't heard people talking about Pit in ages. The character is dead.

"I'm finished..."
I love using Pit, but even I will admit that he's just in the "this character will only get you so far" category.

 

[HoSmash4]

Bold claim: Pit is bottom 10 at killing.

 

[Illuminose]

For people who talked about Duck Hunt vs Shulk: it's worth noting that Masha lost to Raito directly after he beat You3. So using that result as an example is somewhat disingenuous I think.

I haven't heard people talking about Pit in ages. The character is dead.

Earth has performed well recently as he always has. In fact, Earth just got second at Sumabato 14 over top Japanese threats like Komorikiri, Shuton, and 9B, and even took a game from Ranai. His past two Sumabato placements were 4th and 5th, and he got 9th at the Umebura that VoiD came to. Earth also still has his result of 9th at EVO, where he nearly beat Kamemushi and destroyed everyone else he fought at the tournament before falling out of losers to ZeRo, and many good placements throughout the summer. Then there's Kuro who had his amazing performance at Umebura SAT where he got 7th taking games/played close with Dabuz and Mr.R as well as beating some really good Japanese players, including T right after T had taken out Ranai.

Pit is definitely still relevant, but he doesn't have the constant tour presence outside of Japan for people to talk about the character. Earth is going to go to Genesis 4 and place well again, and then people will talk normally about the character again. That's just where the character stands at the moment.

 

[Mega-Spider]

We're talking about Pit now? It's been 25 years! (Sorry, I've been playing some Uprising lately).

As someone who plays Pit on occasion, I can say that Pit's a character that can only get you so far. He's hugely fundamental-based, and he can do very well as Earth keeps proving, but the way he was designed almost makes him the literal definition of an average joe. Unlike Mario who's supposed to be an average joe but has serious reward factor going for him, Pit is basically a mid-level reward character; decent enough, but won't get you super far. Personally, I really enjoy Pit, but that's mainly because I love the Kid Icarus series from what I've played, and Pit's one of my favorite Nintendo characters. Yeah, I'm a loyalist, sue me.

As for the guy who said Pit is one of the worst at killing, I can partially agree with that. Like I said, Pit does decently enough, but can struggle from time to time. If your opponent is good at DI and surviving in general, Pit's gonna struggle at killing.

Pit's in the "good, but will only get you so far," category, and the same goes to his Mirror of Truth clone, Pitto (or Dark Pit).

 

[Locke 06]

Pit's dash attack, dash grab/fthrow, and upsmash are anything but average. + Diddy tier rolls.

 

[Fenny]

VGBC hosted a special S@X for charity, here's the top 10.

Smash @ Xanadu 174 (103 entrants, MD/VA)

1) Nairo
2) Pink Fresh
3) WaDi
4) Remzi
5) PootieTang
5) Zage
7) Black Yoshi
7) Zephyr
9) Tension
9) ZD
9) Iota
9) Promaelia

Nairo also used Bowser, and Pink Fresh also used Lucas.

 

[Deleted member]

Nairo also used Bowser, and Pink Fresh also used Lucas.

Did they win any games with them?

 

[Megamang]

I think a forward facing kill throw off of a great dashgrab makes you pretty decent at killjng.

He might have Mario-esque reward once footstool stuff is explored more. Dair just looks like the perfect setup for it.

 

[Ramserss]

As someone who plays pit I would have to agree he can only go so far. He is to based on fundamentals. A thing I would like to say is Pit/Dark Pit are the most balanced characters in the game.

 

[Y2Kay]

Pit has a frame 5 down smash, frame 5 up smash, frame 10 forward smash, forward facing kill throw, super armored side b, and a back air that doubles as a poke and a raw kill move.

Killing for Pit is fine.

 

[Murlough]

Speaking of near-dead characters, when was the last time Wii Fit did anything? I can't remember the last time I heard anything about her especially at higher level play.

Did everyone just drop her?

 

[Nah]

Is it really that Pit's not used much because he's too "simple" or "conventional" or "too based on fundamentals" though? Cuz like those words describe and they're some of the most used characters in the game. They're also better characters than Pit/Dank Pit, but "there's alternatives that do the same thing but better" has never really stopped people before.

Nairo also used Bowser

how many pockets does this man have lol

 

[outfoxd]

Speaking of near-dead characters, when was the last time Wii Fit did anything? I can't remember the last time I heard anything about her especially at higher level play.

Did everyone just drop her?

Jon numbers put in work at Glitch 2 when i previously thought he switched to Corrin.