Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

Perhaps we talk about Marth because you know, he's actually good/consistent and gets strong results, unlike other characters? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

About this dash bomb throw, is there any real benefit of using it over a jump cancel throw (or glide toss, whatever the actual term is) though? Like, the endlag might be less, but a jump cancel throw will grant you extra distance, right? Surely the little slide you get will be more beneficial in most situations (creating openings for combos etc).

I don't know the frame data of Toon Link's throws like this, but if say, his standard bomb throw had a couple less frames start up or endlag, I'm pretty sure in most situations, the jump cancel throw would still be the far superior throw.

I get what you're saying though; if Link has a bomb in hand, a dash throw at close range might be handy in certain situations to allow him to beat a quick option of another character.

What's the first frame you can throw in a dash; is it frame 1? That would technically make the throw frame 5, wouldn't it (dash for 1 frame + frame 4 throw = frame 5 option)? That would still be Link's fastest ground option, though.

Is he still better than Rosalina or Cloud? No.

Alright, let me go bit by bit on how I'll tell you all this.

First off, with the first few questions, I've actually labbed this out and I've found some incredible results with the Dash Toss itself! The Dash Toss [when Link is running] covers more distance than a Glide Toss will normally. And secondly, when I decided to do an Initial Dash >> Dash Toss, here's where things become a whole lot more astonishing!

The aforementioned combination, I kid you not, actually covers between as much distance, if not more distance, than Link's Bombslide! And not only that, but this is also consistent, but it's easier to learn, and you still have the frame advantage than if you use Link's Bombslide overall. The combination nets you between a fourth to a third of Battlefield's distance depending on how late you want to throw the Bomb out of initial toss, which, if I remember correctly, is more than what Bombslide can do. And since this doesn't have to be frame perfect, a Link player should use this as their burst option. So it's essentially a Bombslide that has frame leniency and a different input, but definitely better frame advantage, is what I'm concluding.

Secondly, Toon Link's standard Bomb throw is 7 frames, just like Link, and 21 FAF, just like Link. For Toon Link, a Glide Toss forward is definitely better for him. Though I will say, Dash Throw is abysmal for Toon Link, since he has 36 frames of FAF unlike Link's 19.

And lastly, yes, Dash Throw can definitely be something that can catch opponents by surprise. Again, if you don't just do initial dash, this is basically your fastest option to hit any opponent with up close, especailly if both of you charge each other. This is definitely his fastest option.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Tink's dash throw is likely bad because Tink is naturally fast as it is.

But JCIT patches up that sore spot.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Is he still better than Rosalina or Cloud? No.

Alright, let me go bit by bit on how I'll tell you all this.

First off, with the first few questions, I've actually labbed this out and I've found some incredible results with the Dash Toss itself! The Dash Toss [when Link is running] covers more distance than a Glide Toss will normally. And secondly, when I decided to do an Initial Dash >> Dash Toss, here's where things become a whole lot more astonishing!

The aforementioned combination, I kid you not, actually covers between as much distance, if not more distance, than Link's Bombslide! And not only that, but this is also consistent, but it's easier to learn, and you still have the frame advantage than if you use Link's Bombslide overall. The combination nets you between a fourth to a third of Battlefield's distance depending on how late you want to throw the Bomb out of initial toss, which, if I remember correctly, is more than what Bombslide can do. And since this doesn't have to be frame perfect, a Link player should use this as their burst option. So it's essentially a Bombslide that has frame leniency and a different input, but definitely better frame advantage, is what I'm concluding.

Secondly, Toon Link's standard Bomb throw is 7 frames, just like Link, and 21 FAF, just like Link. For Toon Link, a Glide Toss forward is definitely better for him. Though I will say, Dash Throw is abysmal for Toon Link, since he has 36 frames of FAF unlike Link's 19.

And lastly, yes, Dash Throw can definitely be something that can catch opponents by surprise. Again, if you don't just do initial dash, this is basically your fastest option to hit any opponent with up close, especailly if both of you charge each other. This is definitely his fastest option.

That wasn't the point, but w/e - he's still very good, arguably just slightly below those two, and better than a huge majority of the cast... but I rest my case here.

Interesting, that's good stuff right there! It might be worth making a video of some sort, to get this spread about a bit more. If what you say is truly true, not many people seem to know about this, or at least, glide tosses seem to be the way forward as of now.

 

[Radical Larry]

That wasn't the point, but w/e - he's still very good, arguably just slightly below those two, and better than a huge majority of the cast... but I rest my case here.

Interesting, that's good stuff right there! It might be worth making a video of some sort, to get this spread about a bit more. If what you say is truly true, not many people seem to know about this, or at least, glide tosses seem to be the way forward as of now.

I'll make a video showcasing it beside the Bombslides and Glide Tosses shortly. I would assume the other Link mains would know about the frame advantages and distance of Dash Throw, though it wouldn't hurt to get it out more. So look forward to it.

And holy hell, Link is a monster with optimized Bomb techs and combos.

 

[Deleted member]

Not a particularly large tournament (75 entrants), but Nicko won Mega Smash Mondays 72 yesterday over in SoCal.
Ended up beating Elegant, Mr. ConCon, imHip and Aarvark .

It was very impressive play on Nicko's part, can't wait for the VODs to be released soon. Really showed how Shulk can be a threat to Luigi if the MU is played proper.

 

[blackghost]

It's perhaps worth remembering that Bat Within only triggers on hitboxes and does not protect Bayonetta from grabs/command grabs. I'm not sure if she can Bat Within grab attacks in her own games either, for that matter.

In her games she can witch time grabs or batwithin them as well. she also can witch time a projectile and reflect it. if they wanted bayo to be 100 percent game accurate she wouldn't be able to block at all either.
batwithin is not a get out of jail free card. it isn't a parry as she takes damage, it isn't a counter she has no guaranteed responses, and it isn't an escape as she suffers lag after its use.
Ive played fighting games for a while and I really don't know what to call batwithin. but batwithin frequently causes her to be comBo harder if misused (see her vs shiek or a plumber.)
I am sure that bayo is one of the few characters in the game that can punish you heavily for missed vertical combo and that's really the only time she gets a punish out of bats.

 

[Illuminose]

brood is now confirmed for genesis 4 in addition to yusan, so it looks like we're gonna see duck hunt in the states for real this time.

 

[Jamurai]

brood is now confirmed for genesis 3 4 in addition to yusan, so it looks like we're gonna see duck hunt in the states for real this time.

DHD counterplay should be poorly developed in the US compared to Japan, where You3 and Brood (and others) have been consistent threats for ages. As a result Americans should expect some beatings, and there might be upsets in store, similar to Nairo vs Hyuga at Genesis 3.

I'm hyped for some hot can action.

 

[meleebrawler]

In her games she can witch time grabs or batwithin them as well. she also can witch time a projectile and reflect it. if they wanted bayo to be 100 percent game accurate she wouldn't be able to block at all either.
batwithin is not a get out of jail free card. it isn't a parry as she takes damage, it isn't a counter she has no guaranteed responses, and it isn't an escape as she suffers lag after its use.
Ive played fighting games for a while and I really don't know what to call batwithin. but batwithin frequently causes her to be comBo harder if misused (see her vs shiek or a plumber.)
I am sure that bayo is one of the few characters in the game that can punish you heavily for missed vertical combo and that's really the only time she gets a punish out of bats.

An accessory bought in the games does allow her to block (though it's more of a parry), even activating a longer witch time if done perfectly. Now imagine witch time off a powershield.

 

[Megamang]

What are DHD's problem MUs? I know he has a solid Diddy MU, which is very nice for him, since Diddy plays similarly in each MU so the MU knowledge gap would be crossed more easily.

 

[TDK]

Cloud and ROB are listed as "F*ck" according to You3's matchup chart.

He also has Link, Corrin, Lucario, and PAC-MAN as -2 MUs.

 

[L9999]

A Diddy MU alone doesn't make a character "good." Still has to deal with Cloud, Rosa, Mario, Sheik, Fox, and ZSS, and the most popular character (IIRC) right now happens to be a bleach drink for DHD. I guess Brood/Yu3 practice it but not going to help much.

 

[Illuminose]

A Diddy MU alone doesn't make a character "good." Still has to deal with Cloud, Rosa, Mario, Sheik, Fox, and ZSS, and the most popular character (IIRC) right now happens to be a bleach drink for DHD. I guess Brood/Yu3 practice it but not going to help much.

Duck Hunt ALSO has a decent matchup against Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, and Mario...and Bayo...his main problem matchup is Cloud.

 

[verbatim]

What are DHD's problem MUs? I know he has a solid Diddy MU, which is very nice for him, since Diddy plays similarly in each MU so the MU knowledge gap would be crossed more easily.

@DunnoBro would probably be a lot more equipped to answer your question, but I'll take a swing at what I think are his ultra horrible matchups (note, I have never played Duck Hunt in bracket seriously).

Pikachu can negate a lot of his traps with Quick Attack and destroys Duck Hunt offstage. Good luck recovering without a hitbox.


Cloud's nair beats all of DHD's projectiles and disjoints, and Cloud can force him to approach.


Lucario I don't know much about, but considering that Duck Hunt might possibly kill the latest in the game out of all of the characters on average I doubt that the matchup is very good for him.

 

[FullMoon]

Honestly I often need to be reminded that Duck Hunt is even in this game.

Which is sad because I do find the shenanigans he can make with the can to be very fun to watch, although he's a real pain to actually play against so in some ways I'm kinda glad he's not played often.

How are DH's MUs with Fox and Sonic? I'd think with two characters that can quickly get in his face he's probably going to suffer a fair bit.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Duck Hunt ALSO has a decent matchup against Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, and Mario...and Bayo...his main problem matchup is Cloud.

Good MU against Sheik is very questionable.

 

[Aaron1997]

DH for sure loses to Cloud and ROB. A lot of You3 bad places have came from Running into ROB's early in Bracket. Fortunately the only ROB at that level that's 100% going to G4 is OCEAN so this may not matter. FullMoon I don't know about Fox but You3, Brood and Raito have all beaten KEN. I don't know about Pac vs DH being +2 in pac's favor. I'll believe it when I see it. The Pikachu Match-up is awful. There's a reason why ESAM thinks DH is Bottom 3. The Bayo match-up is suppost to be really bad but You3 has beaten Ikep before so idk.

FeelMeUp Sheik wins but its by no means free for Sheik. Sheik can't just Run DH over in neutral like other characters because DH neutral is also very good. DH's Meh Advantage state is what Holds this character back.

Edit: Because of the post below, this remind me. ImHip with DH has took games from Mr R (Pre-patch) and destroyed Tyrant' Sheik (although this was 1 game after that was all MK 3-0)

 

[HoSmash4]

ImHip a SoCal Olimar Main used DHD in the Sheik matchup to a decent degree of success

 

[FeelMeUp]

Aside from single needles screwing with can setups at times DH does very well against Sheik in neutral, I don't disagree with that. The reason I think the matchup is pretty bad is DH's bottom 10(or worse?) disadvantage and lack of reward off actually winning neutral against her.

 

[Fenny]

Duck Hunt ALSO has a decent matchup against Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, and Mario...and Bayo...his main problem matchup is Cloud.

Duck Hunt is pretty good at keeping Bayo out, but past that Bayo can dismantle him completely once she's actually in. The gap between his bottom-barrel disadvantage and Bayo's absurd advantage is ridiculous. ZSS is even worse imo, since she has the mobility to close in on him a lot quicker than Bayo probably could, and a Duck Hunt under pressure tends to be a dead Duck Hunt.

 

[verbatim]

The reason I think the matchup is pretty bad is DH's bottom 10(or worse?) disadvantage and lack of reward off actually winning neutral against her.

IMO there's a very big gap in disadvantage between DHD and say, Mac, even if they're both on the same end of the spectrum, and Sheik's not equipped to exploit his weakness to rage (which imo is a bigger factor in him being bad than his recovery).

disadvantage and lack of reward off actually winning neutral against her.

In the past I've agreed with this interpretation of the matchup, but Duck Hunt's have been consistently doing "better than they should be" in the matchup for a long time. My best guess is that Duck Hunt's keep away and anti-grab game messes up Sheik's gameplay a lot more than people realize onstage.

I wouldn't call it DHD favor, but I think that it's fair to say that of the top tiers she isn't one of his harder matchups.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Duck Hunt is pretty good at keeping Bayo out, but past that Bayo can dismantle him completely once she's actually in. The gap between his bottom-barrel disadvantage and Bayo's absurd advantage is ridiculous. ZSS is even worse imo, since she has the mobility to close in on him a lot quicker than Bayo probably could, and a Duck Hunt under pressure tends to be a dead Duck Hunt.

PFFFFFFFFFT

bayo can pursue you soooooooo well with ABK it's ridiculous.

Just played a really good bayo on FG (there are some rare gems there, don't discriminate) as bowjow, and I would take +50 % on each conversion and due to how bad my disadvantage is, i was basically playing it the moment I got hit until i died, and since bayo's neutral is tons better than bowjow, it felt like a 20:80 MU.

Soooooo rough

 

[Fenny]

PFFFFFFFFFT

bayo can pursue you soooooooo well with ABK it's ridiculous.

Just played a really good bayo on FG (there are some rare gems there, don't discriminate) as bowjow, and I would take +50 % on each conversion and due to how bad my disadvantage is, i was basically playing it the moment I got hit until i died, and since bayo's neutral is tons better than bowjow, it felt like a 20:80 MU.

Soooooo rough

Oh no discriminating here, I rarely ever fight bad Bayos on FG for whatever reason rofl

And dABK pursuits on FD are pretty nuts against most of the cast, didn't think DH was too bad against it because of his zoning capacity. Then again I don't fight DH much at all so I wouldn't really know for sure.

 

[NairWizard]

PFFFFFFFFFT

Just played a really good bayo on FG (there are some rare gems there, don't discriminate)

Even the rarest of gems don't shine in online lag.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Oh no discriminating here, I rarely ever fight bad Bayos on FG for whatever reason rofl

And dABK pursuits on FD are pretty nuts against most of the cast, didn't think DH was too bad against it because of his zoning capacity. Then again I don't fight DH much at all so I wouldn't really know for sure.

No, not dABK

Just ABK itself

Never have I seen a person utilize it like this guy did. My mind was blown and steamin with rage. And it really showed me just how poor bowjow's disadvantage state was, and how he lacked options (this is prolly why I'm interested in characters who have a tool for everything).

Eh.

Even the rarest of gems don't shine in online lag.

Our game was pretty crisp, I felt sharp and the losses were legitimate.

Online play isn't always gonna be 30 frames of lag every game ya know.

 

[Laken64]

Well in the end its what matters in tourney and not online play. Not that I'm hating online play though, there are many top players that are Wifi warriors or play with other top players that aren't nearby their area for MU exp and getting a feel for the other player's playstyle.

Offline is always the optimal choice but Online play has its uses from time to time.
Not FG though just no.

 

[TDK]

You3's matchup chart. Not really sure how serious (or accurate) this is because a character with this good MUs would be seen so much more even with a -3 Cloud Matchup.

 

[Laken64]

You3's matchup chart. Not really sure how serious (or accurate) this is because a character with this good MUs would be seen so much more even with a -3 Cloud Matchup.

We've talked about Optimistic MU charts but being even, being +1, and as +2 is reaaaaaally crazy to me IMO.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm just gonna go ahead and ask the inevitable "How the hell does DH beat Greninja +2?"

Partly because I'm really curious about the reasoning if there's any.

 

[Deleted member]

You3's matchup chart. Not really sure how serious (or accurate) this is because a character with this good MUs would be seen so much more even with a -3 Cloud Matchup.

Duck Hunt definitely loses to Shulk and Bayo harder than that, haha

You3 lost to Masha 2-0 at Sumabato 14, pretty convincingly as well.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Tink's dash throw is likely bad because Tink is naturally fast as it is.

But JCIT patches up that sore spot.

Sorry for being a complete NOOB but what does JCIT stand for? I looked up the acronym and got nothing.

 

[ARGHETH]

Sorry for being a complete NOOB but what does JCIT stand for? I looked up the acronym and got nothing.

Jump Cancel Item Throw.

 

[outfoxd]

You3's matchup chart. Not really sure how serious (or accurate) this is because a character with this good MUs would be seen so much more even with a -3 Cloud Matchup.

At least partly serious. in the discord he has the utmost faith in the character and said he thinks it's top 10 in the game. i feel like his unflinching confidence is part of the reason he does well.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Jump Cancel Item Throw.

Oh, why isn't that term on the smash dictionary at smash academy? That's where I look up all the acronyms. They didn't list that one, considering certain characters use that (besides Tink, R.O.B and Diddy also use that) you'd think it'd be an important term....

 

[Game7a1]

Oh, why isn't that term on the smash dictionary at smash academy? That's where I look up all the acronyms. They didn't list that one, considering certain characters use that (besides Tink, R.O.B and Diddy also use that) you'd think it'd be an important term....

That's because in the Smash Dictionary thread, it's called Jump Cancel Throw under the item section under the Advanced and Basic Combinations Options.

 

[NairWizard]

Our game was pretty crisp, I felt sharp and the losses were legitimate.

Online play isn't always gonna be 30 frames of lag every game ya know.

it's not lag that matters, it's the input lag that matters

at minimum with a low-latency connection living in the same household assuming you have the best wiring known to man, you're still going to have a minimum of 3-6 frames of input lag created just by the fact that you're playing online.

Imagine cutting tournament reaction times by 3-6 frames across the board.

That would be a completely different game.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

That's because in the Smash Dictionary thread, it's called Jump Cancel Throw under the item section under the Advanced and Basic Combinations Options.

Ah I must've missed that when I looked it up, like I said I use that when I come across an acronym I don't understand. I've actually seen people use that a lot when I play FG but the success is...mixed to say the very least. It's excellent against people like me who have a tendency to rush in but if you freeze and shield then it doesn't work as well but this is FG we're talking about....

 

[Mega-Spider]

At least partly serious. in the discord he has the utmost faith in the character and said he thinks it's top 10 in the game. i feel like his unflinching confidence is part of the reason he does well.

I kinda wish more players had that mentality. Instead, everything's cold and serious. Come on, I'd love to see Smash 4 develop Melee-esq chemistry with each other at some point.
Gotta admire players that are amazingly optimistic, regardless of their main.

 

[TTTTTsd]

it's not lag that matters, it's the input lag that matters

at minimum with a low-latency connection living in the same household assuming you have the best wiring known to man, you're still going to have a minimum of 3-6 frames of input lag created just by the fact that you're playing online.

Imagine cutting tournament reaction times by 3-6 frames across the board.

That would be a completely different game.

This actually isn't a large issue in most fighting games both due to netcode and other such things.

HOWEVER this game is not very tight (sorry!) and has an inherent 6f of latency vs. the average fighting game's usual 3-4f. This makes a big difference online more than anywhere else because then you're piling onto it.

Additionally this game doesn't employ minor frameskip/rollback to reduce latency online either so it kind of bundles up like that.

Nobody's going to shine perfectly in this game until the NX port or a patch cuts that 6f down to 3 or 4, though.

You're pretty much entirely right but I feel like I needed to elaborate on why Smash Wifi is dicey in particular vs. other games online.

 

[Megamang]

Talk about interactions, this is what you can learn online.

Megaman throwing his metal blade from his item hold wont hit a crouching puff, but the btoss does.

I learned this online, and it got me some bracket wins vs a local PR puff.

We arent here to explain why 30k pot bonuses only happen locally. Online isnt as competitive, im sorry. I ladder tons, so I believe its a great tool, dont get me wrong... so share what you learn.

It doesnt matter where you learned it if its true. You wouldnt have to be defending wifi if you just talked about how good abk is as a chase (its really damn good), since this is something we experience in the game regardless of how we play.

But yea, offline bayo would be chasing you some amount of frames faster, so it would be even better. Though your defense options would also come out faster and... bla bla bla. see how a connection change complicates things? Lets just focus on the game ya'll.

...

Back to the discussion of characters with certain options: mega drastically wants for a combo breaker. Nair is slow, and dair is slooowwww. If you can juggle him, do that. He has to keep you out tons to make up for a juggle, or go for his riskier but higher reward CQC fights to make it up quicker.

But, he does fall reaaallly fast. So if you go too high he can fall past with an AD into uair, or closer to the ground he can quickly fall with a fair or bair. These options suck vs shield into good OoS options though.

So, all of the above means fox uair is just horrific for Mega. Fox without the uair and Mega would actually probably win by a lot, but this is reality where fox has a 16% uair so it happens.