Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

Well he went to Get On My Level in the Spring and got 5th.

I should've clarified the first out-of-country tournament since he got his Visa. My b.

 

[Laken64]

Yea they said he picked up Corrin to cover up 's bad MUs and beat Alphicans' as well as his (put that down on the list too feel or TDK) the main reason for him picking up was to beat Crim's which makes NO sense because that's one of our losing MUs.

 

[outfoxd]

Is Marth jab ftilts reliability as a kill confirm a commonly known fact or is this relatively new info?

 

[TDK]

Yea they said he picked up Corrin to cover up 's bad MUs and beat Alphicans' as well as his (put that down on the list too feel or TDK) the main reason for him picking up was to beat Crim's which makes NO sense because that's one of our losing MUs.

The reason I didn't put down Alphicans' was because to my knowledge it didn't win a single game, which is my criteria for wether or not a secondary gets to my lists.

 

[Deleted member]

The reason I didn't put down Alphicans' was because to my knowledge it didn't win a single game, which is my criteria for wether or not a secondary gets to my lists.

I thought Alphicans secondaried Fox. Did he not use him this tournament?

 

[Illuminose]

That was some of the best Smash 4 ever.

In any given situation, it seemed like Ally and Leo could completely steal momentum from each other and take over the match. Ally was finding hits and comebacks against a sword character with huge range as Mario. Leo was making comebacks as a character that is supposed to space out Mario and play defensively. These are things that don't happen. From destructive combos like the Mario dthrow setup that led to bair->fair on the Lylat game to Leo's insane 0-death to the timeout on Duck Hunt, and how Ally and Leo were constantly switching up their play, you could never really tell where the set was going to go or what was going to happen next.

MK Leo continues to blow my mind in that he reads every single air dodge. I don't think I saw a single air dodge by Ally in the entire grand finals, no matter what timing Ally tried, that Leo did not cover. How he just knows in every single landing situation doesn't make any sense to me. Regardless, even though Marth doesn't quite have Mario's conversions, Leo could keep up with the damage output by resetting landing situations and hitting Ally away over and over. Mario struggles to land against swords in general because his typical landing mixups with aerials simply don't work in those matchups. The main factor that keeps Mario in the Marth matchup is that Marth has to commit to some things, and by that I mean he has lag. If Mario can run up and shield options from Marth or just get in close via any method, he can then get a lot of damage on Marth. The landing situations are also fairly difficult for Marth. I've felt for a bit and now can definitively conclude that the Mario vs Marth is matchup is even, dead even at that.

Spoiler: my thoughts on Mario vs Cloud matchup: +2 in Cloud's favor

Speaking of sword characters, I want to comment on the Cloud vs Mario matchup quickly because I think it's quickly spiraling toward the theory of the matchup. When Cloud plays with Limit and spaces out Mario, he wins the matchup by a decent margin I think. Although Ally was able to find success against Clouds in the past, he's struggled with Komorikiri and Mew2King significantly in the Cloud matchup. ANTi also lost to Tweek in the Mario vs Cloud matchup today, and it was not particularly close. With Limit, it almost feels like Cloud outclasses Mario -- he can move around Mario because of his superior mobility and fundamentally outspaces him in neutral. Cloud also has very good juggles and punish game against Mario. Cloud is a lot safer and has more options/timings to cover Mario's approach than Marth, which is why Marth isn't quite as good at that. Mario has some cheese and combos in the matchup, but he loses every other aspect of the matchup. Without the cheese, I think Cloud absolutely floors Mario. I confidently feel that the matchup is 60:40 in Cloud's favor.

More on Cloud...how does Cloud losing to Sheik and Bayo disqualify him from top 5? I think Cloud losing -2 to Sheik is dubious at best when the matchup is played properly anyways (it's a -1). -2 to Bayonetta might be possible, but that's still not the accepted general view of the matchup -- more a possibility than anything else. Also look at it from the perspective that those are Cloud's only losing matchups. Cloud also probably has the winningest matchup spread in the entire cast. Of the characters commonly considered top 10, Cloud beats 5 if not 6 of them; Mario, Sonic, Fox, Rosalina, and Zero Suit all definitely have losing matchups, as does (generally thought, at the least) Mewtwo. If we go by the 4BR list (dropping Ryu down obviously), Cloud beats most of the high tiers, only having even matchups with Marth, Mega Man, and possibly Meta Knight. He beats every single character listed as mid tier except for Pit and maybe Lucina. It should go without saying, but Cloud beats all of the other characters in low tier and bottom tier as well. How does a character that beats almost all of the top tiers and has barely any even matchups outside his losing ones even be questioned for a top 5 spot?

Seriously. Sonic loses to at least two characters (Cloud and Mewtwo), and a few others are arguably out of his favor, including Rosalina (Kirihara still bops KEN despite KEN beating Dabuz), Mega Man, and Fox. Sonic beats exactly one top tier (Mario). There's some chance that Diddy doesn't lose to any top 10 character if you consider both Rosa and Mario to be even, but even then the only top characters Diddy beats are Zero Suit and Mewtwo -- most of them are even to losing -- and he has losing or even matchups with a variety of more obscure characters. Mega Man, Olimar, and Luigi are widely considered to beat him of those characters I'm talking about, but many other characters that have even or close matchups. Fox loses to Bayo, Cloud, Sheik, and maybe Rosa/Mewtwo of the top tiers. Fox also has losing matchups to the likes of Luigi and Kirby. Mario doesn't beat any of the top tiers and loses to Cloud, Sonic, Mewtwo, and probably Bayo. He also has losing matchups to the likes of Corrin, Luigi, and Peach as well as possible losses or even matchups to a decent number of other characters.

Is losing to Sheik and Bayo really that bad when all of the characters he's competing with lose more matchups? And when Cloud has such a pristine matchup spread against the rest of the cast, including beating many top tiers? I think not. Cloud is top 5, and I think he makes a very strong case for third.

 

[NegaNixx]

ZSS also has a very positive record against Cloud, which is currently 25 wins to 9 losses in bracket. Just something to keep in mind.

31-12 actually as of The Big House 6.

 

[Das Koopa]

Spoiler: My top 20 player list updated

#1: TSM | ZeRo
#2: C9 | Ally
#3: Mr. R
#4: RNG | Dabuz
#5: NRG | Nairo
#6: LG | Abadango
#7: Komorikiri
#8: SF HDG | MKLeo (+6)
#9: DTN | Kamemushi
#10: CT MVG | Salem (+4)
#11: eLevate | Larry Lurr
#12: CLG | VoiD
#13: IMT | ANTi (-1)
#14: KEN
#15: Zinoto (+1)
#16: DNL | Marss
#17: FOX MVG | Mew2King
#18: SS | Mr. E
#19: DMG | Tweek
#20: Rich Brown (-2)

By 2016, Leo now has 3 sets on Mr. R, 2 on Ally, 1 on Nairo, and 1 on Dabuz. I hope he can manage a trip to Japan at some point

 

[Floor]

Spoiler: My top 20 player list updated

#1: TSM | ZeRo
#2: C9 | Ally
#3: Mr. R
#4: RNG | Dabuz
#5: NRG | Nairo
#6: LG | Abadango
#7: Komorikiri
#8: SF HDG | MKLeo (+6)
#9: DTN | Kamemushi
#10: CT MVG | Salem (+4)
#11: eLevate | Larry Lurr
#12: CLG | VoiD
#13: IMT | ANTi (-1)
#14: KEN
#15: Zinoto (+1)
#16: DNL | Marss
#17: FOX MVG | Mew2King
#18: SS | Mr. E
#19: DMG | Tweek
#20: Rich Brown (-2)

By 2016, Leo now has 3 sets on Mr. R, 2 on Ally, 1 on Nairo, and 1 on Dabuz. I hope he can manage a trip to Japan at some point

Very nice and very accurate. Also, it's painful seeing Mr. R without a sponsor tag in front of his name

 

[TDK]

While I do think he's really good, it seems hard to argue that M2K is better than Tweek when Tweek generally does better in tournaments. Personally, I'd switch their places around.

 

[verbatim]

That's a results ranking, not an opinion one. I'd imagine that M2K places higher than Tweek on that chart (does it count Olympus?) because he attends a lot more tournaments and he's generally more consistent even if his peeks aren't quite as high.

 

[Das Koopa]

it's both results and opinion

I can't imagine the math it'd take to separate the top 15-ish going solely by weighting results lol

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Depends on what MU charts you're looking at. Lucario could go even with most of those chars.

I'm sorry but I just cannot see Lucario going even with M2 in any way shape or form. A character who's almost untouchable in neutral by Lucario, combos him well, edgeguarding him extremely efficiently, and consistently kills him at or below 120? If I'm missing something, please by all means call me a misinformed jackass, but I can't really see it.

 

[Megamang]

Especially when m2 has a functional reflector and a great projectile of his own AND a great set of kill moves, and edgeguarding, i cant see it going well for lucario if m2's bothered to learn the MU as well as Lucarios know M2.

His slow CQC also hurts bad, since its usually something most characters have over m2 yet lucario actually gets outboxed (lol) by m2.

Maybe the slow jump away, big burtbox and lightweight is enough to get trounced by throw combos? i just cant see it. a m2 that minds the crossup roll and uses fair and dtilt well just seems like a big problem, especially when Lucario usually can fall back on having a top tier projectile that forces nearly anyone with no reflector to approach.

 

[freeziebeatz]

2GG: Pay it Forward (272 Entrants)

1st: VoiD
2nd: JK
3rd: Tyrant
4th: Ito
5th: Aphro
5th: Aarvark
7th: Vash
7th: Zenyou
9th: Eon (???)
9th: TearBear
9th: Falln
9th: Zan
13th: Mr. ConCon
13th: TLTC
13th: Charliedaking
13th: AC

Das Koopa

Pretty sure Eon uses Fox.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Is Marth jab ftilts reliability as a kill confirm a commonly known fact or is this relatively new info?

It's pretty reliable. Ftilt or fair is usually what's gone for if you can't land a smash attack (so most of the time). DI in is caught by utilt, uair, or the occasional up smash.

Also, does anyone have a link to the Canada Cup stream?

 

[Megamang]

So fair and nair hit frame 6... can marth jab to nair? because THAT would be explosively powerful. I already feel jab is one of the best moves in the game, leading to strong early combos, mid damage stage control, and high damage kill confirms at the ledge. All at the speed of a (slow) jab, with the relative safety to boot. I had a habit from melee of favoring dtilt and the ledge then ftilt when i realized how powerful it was in sm4sh, but recently ive just been jabbing. I guess my reactions line up perfectly with the timing, but it catches almost everything if i react. some chars get nabbed out of their jump, but im not sure if they could hold back or something to dodge it.

Speaking of ledge options, anyone else feel that learning the timing of jump to airdodge is the future of getting past ledge traps? im no mechanics expert, but from looking at frame data it looks like youd have 1 or 2 frames of vulnerability if you had perfect timing? You cant buffer AD from ledge jump, so thats where im unsure.

You can buffer a zdrop, which im finding is amazing for gimping low hitboxless recoveries. And zdrop seems to beat tons of ledge options as well.


Ughhhh stupid training mode sucks. is there a way to make the CPU do certain ledge options? IE on attack it always ledge attacks or something? Or do i really need another human?

 

[ARGHETH]

Also, does anyone have a link to the Canada Cup stream?

Stream
Top 8

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Has anyone noticed the usage of Fair by cloud players (most notably komorikiri)? It's vastly interesting how the meta evolves and now we see players trying to patch up their character's weakness, i.e. Cloud's lack of strong front pokes.

on a curious note, what characters do you guys think lack options to deal with certain stuff? I.e. Little mac and his juggling, recovering and platform weakness. Bowser Jr. and his OOS, CQC, recovery (debatable), and combo food weakness.

Something where the character has exactly ZERO legitimate options to help deal with that certain situation.

 

[Bowserboy3]

To add more fuel to the "Bayonetta is too good" fire, i'm leaving this here as I found this rather amusing:

https://clips.twitch.tv/2ggaming/CleverTigerDeIlluminati

 

[TheGoodGuava]

To add more fuel to the "Bayonetta is too good" fire, leaving this here as I found this rather amusing:

https://clips.twitch.tv/2ggaming/CleverTigerDeIlluminati

Bat within was probably the stupidest thing they could have possibly implemented. Bayonetta is supposed to have poor basic defensive options with bad frame data on her rolls and dodges and that would actually balance her out very well, but what do they do? Give her a frame one option that just means a little bit of damage in most cases. She should be combo food for most characters but instead she can break out of something for the tiniest mistake

 

[HoSmash4]

As hard as it is for Mario to get in, i think he still has the kit to deal with Clouds recovery very efficiently, definitely not +2.

 

[The-Technique]

31-12 actually as of The Big House 6.

My bad. I'll need to check the stats more closely. But nevertheless, the notion that ZSS loses to Cloud is absolute bogus.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bat within was probably the stupidest thing they could have possibly implemented.

I mean, in fairness, coming from her home series, it's not like it was a ridiculous idea that was included just for Smash; it's a real thing in her games.

Though, if we are going really into specifics, you can go through the whole of both the games without even using Bat Within (it's something you have to buy/unlock), so it's not like it was a must to include, like you could argue Witch Time is (you have that at the start, though in the hardest difficulties, it's disabled... but now I'm just opening a can of worms).

But yes, back in the world of Smash, Bat Within is a huge boon for Bayonetta. In that example, Meta Knight's Nair was slow enough to allow her to escape, but in that specific time, it worked so well because Bayonetta was lucky to be in a prime position to hit with her fastest option (just below him to hit with frame 4 Witch Twist). It's wrong to assume that every time Bayonetta escapes something with Bat Within, she can counterattack, because the vast majority of times, she cannot. In most cases, it puts her in a worse position, often forcing her to once again fight for stage control, where her neutral isn't something to shout about (but then you have the whole neutral vs overall reward argument, another argument for another time). She still can't mindlessly airdodge and hope for Bat Within either; if she's close to the ground, she will still take landing lag like normal. It basically just happens to mesh very well with the rest of her moveset.

Perhaps if Bat Within didn't slow down the opponent for as much time as her disappearing and reappearing, it might be less annoying, but that still doesn't change the fact that it can completely ruin certain "combos", which is it's main draw.

I for one am just happy it doesn't trigger Witch Time like in her own games... imagine that...

 

[Nah]

Ughhhh stupid training mode sucks. is there a way to make the CPU do certain ledge options? IE on attack it always ledge attacks or something? Or do i really need another human?

I'm pretty sure you need a person for that.

idk why after 4 iterations of this game they still won't give us a halfway decent training mode really

on a curious note, what characters do you guys think lack options to deal with certain stuff? I.e. Little mac and his juggling, recovering and platform weakness. Bowser Jr. and his OOS, CQC, recovery (debatable), and combo food weakness.
Something where the character has exactly ZERO legitimate options to help deal with that certain situation.

and OoS

Robin doesn't have OoS options, she just stands there in shield asking you to please stop touching her shield because it makes her very uncomfortable

 

[JayE]

Going for an attack on Bayo, then having Bat Within activate and you getting punished for it is like the worst feeling.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Canada Cup turned out to be a lot less stacked than I had anticipated initially.

Spoiler: My top 20 player list updated

#1: TSM | ZeRo
#2: C9 | Ally
#3: Mr. R
#4: RNG | Dabuz
#5: NRG | Nairo
#6: LG | Abadango
#7: Komorikiri
#8: SF HDG | MKLeo (+6)
#9: DTN | Kamemushi
#10: CT MVG | Salem (+4)
#11: eLevate | Larry Lurr
#12: CLG | VoiD
#13: IMT | ANTi (-1)
#14: KEN
#15: Zinoto (+1)
#16: DNL | Marss
#17: FOX MVG | Mew2King
#18: SS | Mr. E
#19: DMG | Tweek
#20: Rich Brown (-2)

By 2016, Leo now has 3 sets on Mr. R, 2 on Ally, 1 on Nairo, and 1 on Dabuz. I hope he can manage a trip to Japan at some point

I think what we really need at some point is a round robin with basically the whole top 15 of this list going at each other.

 

[Fenny]

Bat within was probably the stupidest thing they could have possibly implemented. Bayonetta is supposed to have poor basic defensive options with bad frame data on her rolls and dodges and that would actually balance her out very well, but what do they do? Give her a frame one option that just means a little bit of damage in most cases. She should be combo food for most characters but instead she can break out of something for the tiniest mistake

Bat Within only worked so well there because she was in a prime position to punish MK from there and capitalise. 60% of the time, if you initiate Bat Within you get bopped because you can follow her doing it and the FAF on it is ****. It's primarily a combo breaker.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Bat Within only worked so well there because she was in a prime position to punish MK from there and capitalise. 60% of the time, if you initiate Bat Within you get bopped because you can follow her doing it and the FAF on it is ****. It's primarily a combo breaker.

I'm not saying that its always going to be a punish for Bayo, I'm just saying its a terrible design choice to give her bad frame data on basic options then cover it up with frame 1 options when they're completely unnecessary to the character.

 

[Fenny]

I'm not saying that its always going to be a punish for Bayo, I'm just saying its a terrible design choice to give her bad frame data on basic options then cover it up with frame 1 options when they're completely unnecessary to the character.

You know, not every design choice is geared towards balancing the character

Bat Within simply functions exactly as it does in the original games - in which case, it's pretty great design character wise ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Yikarur]

why is this a terrible design? If you don't trigger bats within her dodges are the very worst in the game. I think this is a pretty balanced design overall.
You could complain if bats within would trigger witch time like it was originally intended 8)

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Smash games tend to have two types of characters in the top two spots of their rosters. There's the best character who is just generally overpowering and good at everything, and then there's the second best character who has an overall less solid kit than the best character, but tends to be the janky, centralizing "bull****" character with perhaps some more holes in their gameplan but also more extreme strengths.

In 64, you had , who had the overall best combo game, recovery, and mobility. Then you had , who despite not being quite as strong in some of these areas, had some of the dumbest hitboxes in the whole game. In Melee, had a near flawless matchup spread, a great recovery, an overwhelming neutral and solid kill power, among other things. was slower, had a worse recovery and had an even higher fall speed, but his punishes were so much more extreme and his shine lead to some ridiculous vertical follow-ups sometimes resulting in death. In Brawl, had unrivaled frame data, mobility, recovery, and kill power. Then there was , who didn't quite have the frame data or mobility to rival Meta Knight, but compensated by literally killing you off of a grab.

Now fast forward in time to Smash 4, where we can see similar trends emerging. has arguably the best neutral in the game, the safest recovery, good edgeguarding and consistent follow-ups. She's just good at everything besides killing, and even then she's not terrible. Then you have who follows the "worse kit, extreme strength" design of , , and. She's much slower than Sheik both in terms of raw mobility and startup. Her roll data is pitiful in comparison, her projectile is inferior, and she has more holes in her neutral because of this. The catch is that when she wins neutral, she blows out of the water in terms of reward. High damaging combos and even death are all very likely possibilities after her combo starters, which are all relatively safe pokes. Sheik's kit is well rounded and oppressive; Bayo's is explosive and extreme.

 

[ARISTOS]

Now fast forward in time to Smash 4, where we can see similar trends emerging. has arguably the best neutral in the game, the safest recovery, good edgeguarding and consistent follow-ups. She's just good at everything besides killing, and even then she's not terrible. Then you have who follows the "worse kit, extreme strength" design of , , and. She's much slower than Sheik both in terms of raw mobility and startup. Her roll data is pitiful in comparison, her projectile is inferior, and she has more holes in her neutral because of this. The catch is that when she wins neutral, she blows out of the water in terms of reward. High damaging combos and even death are all very likely possibilities after her combo starters, which are all relatively safe pokes. Sheik's kit is well rounded and oppressive; Bayo's is explosive and extreme.

I get what you're trying to do here.

The problem with the above is that Bayo's kit is also pretty well-rounded with the addition of being explosive in certain situations.

 

[Rizen]

why is this a terrible design? If you don't trigger bats within her dodges are the very worst in the game. I think this is a pretty balanced design overall.

This is basically saying 'if you ignore what makes her dodges one of the best in the game, they're the worst'. A frame 1 dodge, especially when given to a character with insane ladder combos and possibly the best disadvantaged state in the game, is incredible. Bayo would be balanced if her dodges didn't have bat within, and were actually bad, because she already has great alternative options and the best counter in the game.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's perhaps worth remembering that Bat Within only triggers on hitboxes and does not protect Bayonetta from grabs/command grabs. I'm not sure if she can Bat Within grab attacks in her own games either, for that matter.

Smash games tend to have two types of characters in the top two spots of their rosters. There's the best character who is just generally overpowering and good at everything, and then there's the second best character who has an overall less solid kit than the best character, but tends to be the janky, centralizing "bull****" character with perhaps some more holes in their gameplan but also more extreme strengths.

In 64, you had , who had the overall best combo game, recovery, and mobility. Then you had , who despite not being quite as strong in some of these areas, had some of the dumbest hitboxes in the whole game. In Melee, had a near flawless matchup spread, a great recovery, an overwhelming neutral and solid kill power, among other things. was slower, had a worse recovery and had an even higher fall speed, but his punishes were so much more extreme and his shine lead to some ridiculous vertical follow-ups sometimes resulting in death. In Brawl, had unrivaled frame data, mobility, recovery, and kill power. Then there was , who didn't quite have the frame data or mobility to rival Meta Knight, but compensated by literally killing you off of a grab.

Now fast forward in time to Smash 4, where we can see similar trends emerging. has arguably the best neutral in the game, the safest recovery, good edgeguarding and consistent follow-ups. She's just good at everything besides killing, and even then she's not terrible. Then you have who follows the "worse kit, extreme strength" design of , , and. She's much slower than Sheik both in terms of raw mobility and startup. Her roll data is pitiful in comparison, her projectile is inferior, and she has more holes in her neutral because of this. The catch is that when she wins neutral, she blows out of the water in terms of reward. High damaging combos and even death are all very likely possibilities after her combo starters, which are all relatively safe pokes. Sheik's kit is well rounded and oppressive; Bayo's is explosive and extreme.

I find myself agreeing with most of this. and also come to mind as examples of this dichotomy in Smash 4.

 

[|RK|]

I'm sorry but I just cannot see Lucario going even with M2 in any way shape or form. A character who's almost untouchable in neutral by Lucario, combos him well, edgeguarding him extremely efficiently, and consistently kills him at or below 120? If I'm missing something, please by all means call me a misinformed *******, but I can't really see it.

120 is far too late, tbh. Mewtwo eats an ADC to usmash and dies at 47% at that point. Untouchable in neutral is Sheik - yet top Sheik mains usually put that MU as even or only slightly in her favor.

Reflectors are something extra to think about, but never the end-all-be-all of an MU.

And while Mewtwo is faster than Lucario, Lucario still has a much better initial dash - and his dash attack starts more quickly and crosses up. So he's a little better in the burst movement department - very useful for getting by Mewtwo's range. His weight and long range recovery also mean that he can afford more mistakes in neutral than Mewtwo can.

And on the note of Lucario's recovery - it really isn't *that* bad. It's linear, sure, but Lucario can stall and wall cling to mix up his recovery as needed. And Mewtwo doesn't have anything like needles to prevent Lucario from coming back that often.

I do believe Mewtwo does have better neutral *tools* (primarily in range and mobility), Lucario isn't at all a slouch.

I'm not going to give an MU ratio, since I haven't played against many Mewtwos using Lucario. As such, this is mostly theory. But I don't think it's *crazy* to say this MU is even.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I still think it's far too early to assume Bayonetta is among the top 3, or even top 5 in the game. What happens here quite often is that somebody brings up one point on a character and it becomes a game of "lets blow this point up as much as we can" and by the time it's done, everybody thinks the character is OP, based on one topic.

Even with all her representation, Bayonetta still hasn't placed in the money or top 3 (for example) the amount of times characters like Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Sonic and ZSS have done in 1.1.6.

Taking a few national tournaments from this list that have been in 1.1.6 (list here - http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_national_tournaments#Super_Smash_Bros._for_Wii_U), here's some examples to put things into perspective... (to save you all from a wall of text, it's in the spoiler below):

Spoiler: Characters

has: 3rd at KTAR Saga, 7th at GOML, 2nd at Apex 2016, 5th at CEO 2016, 2nd at WTFox, 4th at Clutch City Clash, 5th at Umebura S.A.T., 3rd at SF5.

has: 2nd at GOML, 2nd and 4th at Smash N Splash, 3rd at Apex 2016, 1st at Low Tier City, 2nd at CEO 2016, 1st at Endgame, 1st at Shine.

has: 1st at GOML, 2nd at Momocon, 1st at Smash N Splash, 3rd at Clutch City Clash, 3rd at Endgame.

has: 3rd at Momocon, 5th at Apex 2016, 1st at Umebura S.A.T., 4th at Shine, 4th at SF5.

has: 2nd at KTAR Saga, 4th at GOML, 1st at Momocon, 5th at Apex 2016, 2nd at Low Tier City, 3rd at Umebura S.A.T.

has: 1st at KTAR Saga, 3rd at SF5 and 5th at Clutch City Clash, and 9th at TBH6... then has things like 13th at Low Tier City, 33rd at CEO, 13th at Endgame, as well as being completely absent from the top spots of many tournaments, or absent altogether, such as absent from EVO 2016, 33rd at Shine etc.

I want to point out that I am in no way downplaying things like 13th places, but in comparison to the other consistent top 10 placements characters like Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Sonic and ZSS have, it pales a little.

Even characters like Marth and Cloud have been more common, or have been credited one way or another far more times than Bayonetta has; Marth has had more top 10 placements than Bayonetta, and Cloud is the same, as well as being used as part of a "team" of character on more occasions too - they're credits Bayonetta lacks.

Heck, I could do the same tournaments for too, and what do we have? 9th at TBH6, 9th at KTAR Saga, 9th/13th at Apex 2016, 1st at SF5, 13th/17th at EVO 2016, 9th at Shine, 9th at TBH6, along with the odd 17th-33rd place here and there that I didn't count, like Bayonetta (perhaps we should start realising Marth as a true threat at a national level now? - a discussion for another day).

also almost always appeared in the top 5 one way or another in these selected tournaments.

Looking at it this way, there are many, many characters performing as good as if not better than Bayonetta at a national level. The idea of her "being a lock" for top 5 at this point in time amuses me. This thread strikes again with the whole "X character has something good - they're so strong!".

I'm in no way downplaying what Bayonetta has, or can do; Bayonetta is quite frankly an amazing character. However, perhaps we aught to step back a little from the "dumb design choices" or the theory she has and look at everything as a whole. Ok, Bayonetta has some insane options. Why then, isn't she as overly dominating as say, the 5 I mentioned, on a national level? I feel that would bring more to the table I feel, rather than what is currently being discussed.

 

[|RK|]

I still think it's far too early to assume Bayonetta is among the top 3, or even top 5 in the game. What happens here quite often is that somebody brings up one point on a character and it becomes a game of "lets blow this point up as much as we can" and by the time it's done, everybody thinks the character is OP, based on one topic.

Even with all her representation, Bayonetta still hasn't placed in the money or top 3 (for example) the amount of times characters like Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Sonic and ZSS have done in 1.1.6.

Taking a few national tournaments from this list that have been in 1.1.6 (list here - http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_national_tournaments#Super_Smash_Bros._for_Wii_U), here's some examples to put things into perspective... (to save you all from a wall of text, it's in the spoiler below):

Spoiler: Characters

has: 3rd at KTAR Saga, 7th at GOML, 2nd at Apex 2016, 5th at CEO 2016, 2nd at WTFox, 4th at Clutch City Clash, 5th at Umebura S.A.T., 3rd at SF5.

has: 2nd at GOML, 2nd and 4th at Smash N Splash, 3rd at Apex 2016, 1st at Low Tier City, 2nd at CEO 2016, 1st at Endgame, 1st at Shine.

has: 1st at GOML, 2nd at Momocon, 1st at Smash N Splash, 3rd at Clutch City Clash, 3rd at Endgame.

has: 3rd at Momocon, 5th at Apex 2016, 1st at Umebura S.A.T., 4th at Shine, 4th at SF5.

has: 2nd at KTAR Saga, 4th at GOML, 1st at Momocon, 5th at Apex 2016, 2nd at Low Tier City, 3rd at Umebura S.A.T.

has: 1st at KTAR Saga, 3rd at SF5 and 5th at Clutch City Clash, and 9th at TBH6... then has things like 13th at Low Tier City, 33rd at CEO, 13th at Endgame, as well as being completely absent from the top spots of many tournaments, or absent altogether, such as absent from EVO 2016, 33rd at Shine etc.

I want to point out that I am in no way downplaying things like 13th places, but in comparison to the other consistent top 10 placements characters like Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Sonic and ZSS have, it pales a little.

Even characters like Marth and Cloud have been more common, or have been credited one way or another far more times than Bayonetta has; Marth has had more top 10 placements than Bayonetta, and Cloud is the same, as well as being used as part of a "team" of character on more occasions too - they're credits Bayonetta lacks.

Heck, I could do the same tournaments for too, and what do we have? 9th at TBH6, 9th at KTAR Saga, 9th/13th at Apex 2016, 1st at SF5, 13th/17th at EVO 2016, 9th at Shine, 9th at TBH6, along with the odd 17th-33rd place here and there that I didn't count, like Bayonetta (perhaps we should start realising Marth as a true threat at a national level now? - a discussion for another day).

also almost always appeared in the top 5 one way or another in these selected tournaments.

Looking at it this way, there are many, many characters performing as good as if not better than Bayonetta at a national level. The idea of her "being a lock" for top 5 at this point in time amuses me. This thread strikes again with the whole "X character has something good - they're so strong!".

I'm in no way downplaying what Bayonetta has, or can do; Bayonetta is quite frankly an amazing character. However, perhaps we aught to step back a little from the "dumb design choices" or the theory she has and look at everything as a whole. Ok, Bayonetta has some insane options. Why then, isn't she as overly dominating as say, the 5 I mentioned, on a national level? I feel that would bring more to the table I feel, rather than what is currently being discussed.

I get what you're saying, but isn't that player and bracket-based as well? What if Salem didn't have to play Dabuz, for example? What if no one played Diddy? Etc.

Looking at results to understand characters seems inefficient.

 

[verbatim]

Even with all her representation, Bayonetta still hasn't placed in the money or top 3 (for example) the amount of times characters like Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Sonic and ZSS have done in 1.1.6.

This is cherrypicking since it counts all of the times notable Bayo players don't place top 3 but ignores all of the times that other notable character reps don't.

Besides, from a results based standpoint she's #2 as of Oct 11th, before many of Salem's recent top placings.

 

[Rizen]

Looking at it this way, there are many, many characters performing as good as if not better than Bayonetta at a national level. The idea of her "being a lock" for top 5 at this point in time amuses me. This thread strikes again with the whole "X character has something good - they're so strong!".

I'm in no way downplaying what Bayonetta has, or can do; Bayonetta is quite frankly an amazing character. However, perhaps we aught to step back a little from the "dumb design choices" or the theory she has and look at everything as a whole. Ok, Bayonetta has some insane options. Why then, isn't she as overly dominating as say, the 5 I mentioned, on a national level? I feel that would bring more to the table I feel, rather than what is currently being discussed.

Das Koopa 's thread does have Bayo currently ranked 2nd, after Cloud, in the top 16 weighted list.
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
So it's not like she doesn't have the results to support theory. We've seen Pink Fresh and Salam win huge tournaments, beating top players with her.

Bayo has many things good and she is so strong. Insane combos, safety, disadvantage state, advantage stage, reward, possibly best recovery, best counter, frame 4 OoS combo starter, frame 1 bat with in air/spot dodges...

It's hard to say where exactly the top tiers fit with each other but top 5 is the most likely scenario for Bayo (and Cloud) imo.