Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Yonder]

Then you may as well slap a sign on Luigi that says "must have turbo fingers to be successful".

It's true though. Have you seen a successful Luigi that can't jumpless cyclone? I haven't. I can't do a jumpless cyclone and I sure as heck ain't successful. It is imperative for Luigi to master it in order to preserve his 2nd jump for recovery and gimp linear recoveries. For example, if you can't jumpless cyclone with Luigi vs Cloud, the matchup goes from a glimmer of hope to a car wreck for Luigi. Because at least of he can get him offstage he has a chance to spike him with down b and its wide radius and large priority offstage.

(If they ever had another patxh, making Luigi's cyclone rise easier like in Brawl is my one true wish. But i guess mastering it here is what separates the weak from the strong.)

 

[Nu~]

I thought this too at first, but then I reconsidered. The BSD video said top 5 projectile characters, not top 5 projectiles. Do you think Pac-Man's projectile game flows as well as the characters mentioned in the top 5? I don't think so.

In fact, I still think that's a major roadblock to Pac-Men right now, or at least until his infinites become commonplace. There's too much focus on Pac-Man's easily countered projectiles and telegraphed setups and not enough emphasis on going over there and killing people \ air combos.

Oh you're definitely right, but I was considering Z drop gameplay and item combos up close as well. Pac-Man's infinities are stupid and may be where his meta is heading (which is one of the many reasons why I don't play him anymore), but it's true that his projectile game does not flow as well as the characters listed.


Hell, I'm still upset at how badly designed bonus fruit is :/. Frame 12 to come out with an FAF of 45...and every fruit can be caught OoS...and you lose all your fruit when they catch one...and getting a fruit in the hand is often overly convoluted...and even when you do toss them, they lose to weak attacks...

It feels so bad man

 

[Megamang]

2 stock tournament is also harder to get a secondary to work IMO.

Lots of time you see a char switcher get bodied for stock 1, then it starts to make sense why they switched but its too late.


Man i wish we did 3 stocks. i think we can blame sakurai not wanting people to feel totally rekt for being 3 stocked on FG, and rosa and sonic. still, its not like we couldnt do 3 stock if we wanted, we just wont.

What is the death of vine thing about?


Edit: Also, whats up with m2? is it me or has he really fallen off recently? Is it he is now losing to shieks due to uthrow 50/50, so he lacks the niche of beating shiek that he once had?

 

[Y2Kay]

What is the death of vine thing about?

The site's closing down soon. instagram and snapchat killed off my main source greninja footstool yumminess.◥θ益θ◤ノ ┻━┻

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Shulk has a high skill ceiling and an equally high skill floor, but played as best as possible like TAS he would still be bad. In the same way, Bayonetta and Sheik are the best characters a human could play, but in a TAS environment Bayonetta wouldn't be able to reliably win neutral or do more than 15% off of a combo and Sheik would never be able to kill reliably

 

[L9999]

Shulk has a high skill ceiling and an equally high skill floor, but played as best as possible like TAS he would still be bad. In the same way, Bayonetta and Sheik are the best characters a human could play, but in a TAS environment Bayonetta wouldn't be able to reliably win neutral or do more than 15% off of a combo and Sheik would never be able to kill reliably

If Shulk is so bad why is his playerbase getting bigger, his results becoming better and his MU chart improving?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think as a playerbase we need to start using the term "bad" less.

We have very few bad characters. We just have lots of not as good ones.

Most characters can do alright at a tournament level as results are showing more and more. We are getting a surprisingly high amount of low/mid tier heroes doing some real work in their regions and while these characters may never win a national, results show they aren't lost causes. You can have tournament success with a large amount of the cast.

It's the characters that get VERY few results that we can call bad.

come to mind.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If Shulk is so bad why is his playerbase getting bigger, his results becoming better and his MU chart improving?

I said TAS for a reason, played as best as humanly possible he is just fine.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I said TAS for a reason, played as best as humanly possible he is just fine.

Shulk has a high skill ceiling and an equally high skill floor, but played as best as possible like TAS he would still be bad.

Maybe I'm not getting something....

But this doesn't add up, man.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Maybe I'm not getting something....

But this doesn't add up, man.

What I mean by this is frame 1 reactions are a thing, SDI, DI, and punishes are all optimal. Assuming the 7 frame's of input lag is a thing and you aren't reacting to the inputs themselves like a level 9 CPU, everything that starts after frame 7 will be powershielded, and that means everything but Shulk's jab and grab will probably lead to him getting 0 - deathed

Now since this is completely unachievable, Shulk has nowhere to go but up. He has some crazy kill confirms, unexplored tech, and great damage racking ability.

 

[Nobie]

Edit: Also, whats up with m2? is it me or has he really fallen off recently? Is it he is now losing to shieks due to uthrow 50/50, so he lacks the niche of beating shiek that he once had?

I know this doesn't say anything in particular, but I'm highly amused that I read this, and then read what's below:

https://twitter.com/Tetra_76/status/792647190321782784

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I know this doesn't say anything in particular, but I'm highly amused that I read this, and then read what's below:

https://twitter.com/Tetra_76/status/792647190321782784

Bracket: http://challonge.com/TUSTournament6T

13th Brood - Duck Hunt
13th Ke-ya - Corrin, Robin
13th Nayu - Cloud
13th Nicorin - Link

Das Koopa

 

[Das Koopa]

T getting 49th and Rich Brown getting 25th

lol

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

T getting 49th and Rich Brown getting 25th

lol

thats japan inconsistency for ya

 

[Emblem Lord]

That japan, land of legends where everyone is a demigod and you can get bopped at any moment.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://oddshot.tv/shot/UzrOOzXnOOxMr6W2k2gk5mR4

Worth posting here.

 

[Nu~]

https://oddshot.tv/shot/UzrOOzXnOOxMr6W2k2gk5mR4

Worth posting here.

Nah fam, where's that SDI? Fraudulent



Joking aside...is this more on the fault of Bayonetta craziness, fox's awful disadvantage state, or a little of both?

 

[Fenny]

https://oddshot.tv/shot/UzrOOzXnOOxMr6W2k2gk5mR4

Worth posting here.

Ahahahahahaha

Fair chains are insanely broke in the Bayo-Fox MU

Nah fam, where's that SDI? Fraudulent



Joking aside...is this more on the fault of Bayonetta craziness, fox's awful disadvantage state, or a little of both?

A bit of both.

Fox's fall speed means that if you do it right it's literally a confirmed death kill. Anyone else has a chance of getting out of it.

 

[TDK]

So... Add Larry to Salem's list of souls? That was dumb.

EDIT: ANTi loses with Mario to Larry's Fox, switches to Charizard and gets destroyed, and then switches to cloud.

Once again, Zard just couldn't get on the ground without taking like 50. Once he landed, he got maybe one or two hits (usually jabs) before being hit back up in the air and the cycle repeats.

In a similar vein, Larry tried to pick DK vs Salem and it was quite similar. DK took so much damage in the air and once DK was on the ground Salem just faired his shield and he couldn't do anything until he got hit up again.

 

[JayE]

Fox is a character who gets combo'd hard in general to many characters

 

[|RK|]

Nah fam, where's that SDI? Fraudulent



Joking aside...is this more on the fault of Bayonetta craziness, fox's awful disadvantage state, or a little of both?

Fall speed affects SDI something fierce. Learned that when I used to play a little Roy - SDI with, say, Kirby is free, SDI with a fast faller is...

 

[FeelMeUp]

Fox can't do anything against a majority of Bayo's stuff.
I still stand by the thought that Bayo is one of his 2-3 6:4 MUs and her seemingly booming popularity is a major hit to his viability

 

[TDK]

Olympus only had 66 people, so it wouldn't count, but Salem 6-0s Tweek to take the tournament.

Hightlight was listening to Captain Zack and Pink Fresh complain about Bayonetta in the chat.

 

[verbatim]

Nah fam, where's that SDI? Fraudulent


Joking aside...is this more on the fault of Bayonetta craziness, fox's awful disadvantage state, or a little of both?

There's a few factors that determine how hard it is to SDI out of stuff (mainly fall speed).

If you watch ESAM's video he specifically said that Fox was the only character he couldn't SDI out of Bayo's combos with. characters like Pikachu/Mario/Diddy Kong will have a better time getting out of witch twist than Fox, not that it is easy for any character.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Fox can't do anything against a majority of Bayo's stuff.
I still stand by the thought that Bayo is one of his 2-3 6:4 MUs and her seemingly booming popularity is a major hit to his viability

Along with Bayo possibly being also one of Cloud's only 4-6 MU's (maybe Sheik too) That is two top tier and possible top 5 characters she does very well against it seems

 

[Deleted member]

Olympus (66 entrants - Atlantic City, NJ)

1) Salem
2) Tweek
3) Larry Lurr
4) ANTi (did take any games?)
5) Fatality
5) Dakpo
7) Vivid
7) Frozen
9) K9
9) 6WX
9) Zoan

Salem's a monster, man.

 

[Y2Kay]

Fox really isn't the best top tier MU to show Charizard's strengths, and Anti's Charizard isn't particularly good either.

 

[TDK]

I think the fact that ANTi's Zard has a lower rate of success than Abadango's Pac-Man should say something.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the fact that ANTi's Zard has a lower rate of success than Abadango's Pac-Man should say something.

That they're very unpolished pockets?

 

[TurboLink]

Bracket: http://challonge.com/TUSTournament6T

13th Brood - Duck Hunt
13th Ke-ya - Corrin, Robin
13th Nayu - Cloud
13th Nicorin - Link

Das Koopa

T getting 49th and Rich Brown getting 25th

lol

Where can I watch the matches?

 

[TDK]

That they're very unpolished pockets?

Hey, at least Aba's Pac-Man has a game on Zinoto to his name.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Along with Bayo possibly being also one of Cloud's only 4-6 MU's (maybe Sheik too) That is two top tier and possible top 5 characters she does very well against it seems

At this point neither Fox nor Cloud have a realistic claim for a top 5 spot. Both lose 4/6 to Sheik and Bayonetta - the two best characters in the game.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Sometimes I feel bad for Fox when I watch him get mercilessly slaughtered by seemingly endless death combos.

Then I remember the stuff he can do with upair and fair->footstool, and I revel in his pain.

 

[mountain_tiger]

At this point neither Fox nor Cloud have a realistic claim for a top 5 spot. Both lose 4/6 to Sheik and Bayonetta - the two best characters in the game.

While I agree that Fox and Cloud are around the #6-10 mark, can we definitely say that Bayonetta is top 2? I reckon there's still a decent argument for Diddy Kong being better, and Sonic/Mewtwo are both arguable either way as well.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Eh.
With Bayo on the comeup even more and Cloud still being a boon I think I can realistically put Fox just out of top 5 again.
Although arbitrary, I feel like top 5 would be some random mix of . Maybe in that order.
These characters have "got the goods" that most of the cast can't really deal with, and their CPs are either very uncommon, easy to manage, or nonexistent.
Anyone think there's a character that beats or goes even with at least 2-3 of these?

 

[Frihetsanka]

The way I see it, right now we have 4 characters that almost certainly qualify for top 5: . Several characters fight for that last 5th spot right now. If we look at the 4BR list it'd be one of the following: .

 

[ARGHETH]

Anyone think there's a character that beats or goes even with at least 2-3 of these?

Mewtwos and Japanese Sonics seem to think Corrin goes even with them, does that count?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Anyone think there's a character that beats or goes even with at least 2-3 of these?

You mean outside of top tier?

 

[FeelMeUp]

You mean outside of top tier?

Ehhh.
I'll say outside of top 7. So no Fox/Rosa.

 

[TDK]

Anyone think there's a character that beats or goes even with at least 2-3 of these?

Most Diddy mains think they go even at best with Rosa, Mr. R, Puppeh, and vinnie think the matchup is even or slight disadvantage (VoiD thinks it's even or slight advantage), and Sonic mains think it's even. Top Bayos think it's a slight advantage (55:45) and I could see it becoming even later on or staying like that. The only one she loses right now would be Mewtwo and very slightly Bayo (Though Dabuz does think it's 6:4 Bayo he did beat Salem really convincingly).

So yeah. Rosalina for #6 if those are our top 5.

EDIT: 'd