Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

Mario is actually ridiculously hard to play at the highest levels, especially in certain matchups like Corrin (most people look at these matchups and say "losing MU," but in reality the burden of improvement is entirely on the Marios here).

Mario doesn't get free disadvantage like Bayonetta or autojuggles/instadeath like Fox or free-neutral-win buttons like Sheik or insane ledge pressure like Cloud. What he does get instead are mixups in every game state, and the odds stacked in his favor whenever he takes calculated risks.

Taking advantage of this design is much harder for the average player to do.

"you mean I have to be solid in neutral, advantage, AND disadvantage? and learn mixups!? and master FLUDD!? or else I get walled out all match long? screw this, i'm playing Diddy Kong. mario sucks"

 

[soniczx123]

So it's pretty safe to assume Bayonetta and Cloud are going to be top 2 in terms of results until the next supermajor happens, where a certain amount of upset is almost expected at this point. Bayonetta because she's pretty much the best solo main besides Diddy Kong -neither character is even remotely as difficult to play consistently at top level as Sheik- and Cloud because he's one of the best secondaries for a lot of characters and is overplayed as a consequence.

At this point it's mostly surprising to see how little Mario is being used. He's neither used a lot as a main, nor as a secondary despite how good and easy to play he is.

I wouldn't class Diddy and Bayo in the same catagory in terms of difficulty of play.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well there's a reason ConCon and Elegant always spam Luigi in Character Select before matches, and its honestly not that demanding compared to what other high/top tiers require in terms of tech and input.

Also try playing Luigi sometime, its not that hard to Tornado gimp offstage or ceiling KO someone in the air with a rising Tornado.

It's one thing to rise with a double jump or maintain altitude. But the point I was trying to make is that without Green Missile, Luigi's lateral recovery is terrible, and the only way salvage it is to be able to rise with cyclone without jumping first, which requires much faster mashing than simple gimps or combos.

 

[Yikarur]

It's pretty easy to score wins with Bayonetta because with 2 Stocks you need one good witch time to win 50% of the game.
I think if you factor witch time out of the equation she is pretty challenging to play as but witch time alone decreases the amount of skill you need to actually win games.

 

[soniczx123]

It's pretty easy to score wins with Bayonetta because with 2 Stocks you need one good witch time to win 50% of the game.
I think if you factor witch time out of the equation she is pretty challenging to play as but witch time alone decreases the amount of skill you need to actually win games.

If you hit WTs that consistently, then you're an amazing player or your opponents presses way too many buttons at kill percentage.

 

[Nobie]

In terms of Bayonetta being "not that fast," I think the idea comes partly from the fact that Bayonetta's frame data isn't all that special, aside from Witch Twist. She has crazy burst movement, lingering hitboxes up the wazoo, and all sorts of good stuff, but things like frame 7 d-tilt are good but not great (putting aside possible follow-ups).

Another thing I feel that people forget is that, if not for Bat Within, Bayonetta would have by far the worst defensive rolls/dodges in the game. She literally has more vulnerability frames on the ends of her rolls than Samus, and if you bait out her air dodge, it's more open than any other.

Of course, Bayos can play around these weaknesses because of how good her mobility is, so it's not like I'm saying she's free. But it's not like she is good at EVERYTHING.

 

[FeelMeUp]

and i'd like to also mention Bayo's disadvantage vs certain characters is legitimately horrendous at low percents. For example, Bats Within ends up being a "get hit more" option against, say... Plumbers.

 

[jet56]

Been a while since I've done one of these.

Spoiler: Full amount of top 16s/8s

15 in top 16, 11 in top 8
14 in top 16, 8 in top 8
12 in top 16, 9 in top 8
12 in top 16, 7 in top 8
10 in top 16, 7 in top 8
10 in top 16, 4 in top 8
8 in top 16, 4 in top 8
7 in top 16, 4 in top 8
7 in top 16, 3 in top 8
7 in top 16, 3 in top 8
6 in top 16, 2 in top 8
6 in top 16, 2 in top 8
5 in top 16, 4 in top 8
5 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 2 in top 8
4 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 0 in top 8 (RIP)
3 in top 16, 3 in top 8 (100%)
3 in top 16, 3 in top 8 (100%)
3 in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 in top 16, 1 in top 8
3 in top 16, 1 in top 8
3 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 2 in top 8 (100%)
2 in top 16, 2 in top 8 (100%)
2 in top 16, 2 in top 8 (100%)
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 0 in top 8
2 in top 16, 0 in top 8
2 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8

Total number of characters who made top 16: 47 (!!)
I love this game.
Most Popular Character combination: Anyone +

Spoiler: Top 16 results tier list

View attachment 119969

Spoiler: Top 8 results tier list

View attachment 119970

Not gonna do averages because it's tedious and annoying and I don't have the time.

Also, Little Mac is the literal definition of Unreliable.

Honestly, I'm hurt that not one of my mac brethren could crack top 8, a few of us did get close though. Actually, a good amount of mac rep was out there the last two weeks (ironically, Duffo, Wonderbread, and Sol all placed 25th at Come to papa 2.) while it can be disappointing to have all these Macs and only 4 top 16s to show for it, the trend for mac in the scene has been going up in terms of results.A year ago, there really was only 1-2 mac putting any work at top level at all, and now there is about a dozen at least. Honestly, people are just becoming more consistent and proficient with the character. Little Mac has nowhere to go but up.

 

[HoSmash4]

Bayonetta is not hard to play at all. Anyone who realises how good those hitboxes and special moves are will know.

 

[Illuminose]

and i'd like to also mention Bayo's disadvantage vs certain characters is legitimately horrendous at low percents. For example, Bats Within ends up being a "get hit more" option against, say... Plumbers.

I want to say something about this because...the thing is that Bayo can Up B especially or even jump in a lot of the situations you are seeing Bat Within abused. Salem is just very bad at dealing with Mario combos -- that is NOT how low percents should look whatsoever.

 

[DunnoBro]

The hardest thing about bayo is being aware of alllll her options at all times. However, she still has the best overall risk/reward ratio into the game so making mistakes is rarely that awful

 

[FeelMeUp]

I want to say something about this because...the thing is that Bayo can Up B especially or even jump in a lot of the situations you are seeing Bat Within abused. Salem is just very bad at dealing with Mario combos -- that is NOT how low percents should look whatsoever.

I'm not exclusively talking about salem.
There's a very big difference between a f1 escape option in the form of an airdodge and a f4 one that can potentially get you out of stuff and start combos. If you string bayonetta in a situation where she keeps getting hit for trying to use Bat's Within, it's as if she doesn't have an airdodge. Add on the fact that she has no f2-3 aerial escape option as a light-ish fastfaller and you suddenly get a character that truly has a mediocre to bad disadvantage.
Uuuuuunfortunately this only applies before like, 50-70% and only a select few characters can abuse it. For others you're screwed into not being able to connect anything without getting reversed on.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Couldn't Mewtwo and Sheik just camp the everloving **** out of Bayonetta with their better overall mobility and broken projectiles? I know I've done it a few times but not against a high level Bayo player...

 

[DunnoBro]

Couldn't Mewtwo and Sheik just camp the everloving **** out of Bayonetta with their better overall mobility and broken projectiles? I know I've done it a few times but not against a high level Bayo player...

No, they can't. They beat bayo in neutral but not enough to disallow meaningful wins for if she plays it right. And she gets absurd reward on these two in particular.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik in particular can abuse crawling(for the Crouch Cancel+ignoring Climax) and needles in neutral to force Bayo to approach. That way you can BF dtilt bullets and still boostgrab/shield/fair/ftilt most approaches on reaction. However, the reward Bayo gets for hitting Sheik in particular is ridiculously high and if the Sheik doesn't know how to edgeguard and/or ledgetrap Bayo properly she still gets heavily outrewarded. Imo, the ZeRo style with needlecamping and no overextensions while playing grab2win for the 50/50 and easy combos on Bayo are best.
It does help that Sheik is one of the best characters at edgeguarding Bayo because of needles beating WT/AbK and BF trading with/beating diagonal AbK, though, so there's usually not a huge risk for attempting something offstage.
but the whole "i read you, eat 50 or die at 60" thing is so prevalent that I doubt the MU will change much on either end over time.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Corrin upsets at Olympus

Vivid 2-0s 6WX

Frozen 2-0s K9

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Everyone's so ashamed to admit that their character is easy. Chill with the fragile egos. Nothing in smash 4 is hard outside of mental calculations and mindgames. You want something that's hard? Try learning Lizst's La Campanella on the piano, playing an athletic sport competitively, or doing manual labor every day. Smash 4 ain't hard.

Not even saying top level Smash 4 doesn't take incredible skill. That would be ridiculous. My point is that nothing in Smash 4 is out of the realm of possibility for the average person, and shaming people for playing "easy" characters in a relatively easy discipline is stupid and childish.

 

[Deleted member]

Everyone's so ashamed to admit that their character is easy. Chill with the fragile egos. Nothing in smash 4 is hard outside of mental calculations and mindgames. You want something that's hard? Try learning Lizst's La Campanella on the piano, playing an athletic sport competitively, or doing manual labor every day. Smash 4 ain't hard.

Not even saying top level Smash 4 doesn't take incredible skill. That would be ridiculous. My point is that nothing in Smash 4 is out of the realm of possibility for the average person, and shaming people for playing "easy" characters in a relatively easy discipline is stupid and childish.

You're right, tbh. I admit I was wrong, Shulk is incredibly easy ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Yikarur]

Shulk is not hard. Shulk is just bad.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He's actually really hard.

 

[meleebrawler]

Shulk is not hard. Shulk is just bad.

We're talking about skill floor, not ceiling. By that silly logic characters like Sheik and Bayonetta are braindead.

 

[Fenny]

Shulk is not hard. Shulk is just bad.

He's not great, but he arguably has the steepest learning curve in the game regardless. I actually admire people who can utilise him effectively in any case because of the complexity of his playstyle. You need some real quick thinking and situational awareness to get him to function properly at all.

 

[HoSmash4]

The notion of 'x character' being hard or easy is fairly irrelevant despite being interesting to discuss. The true fact is that everyone is carried by their main because its their best character.

 

[Megamang]

And you should try your hardest at any character if you bother to show up.


Anyways, im much more interested in the idea of a character 'clicking' or general fit of a character. i know playing a low tier is a handicap, but are there people better off with CF than shiek? or is this idea simply because without passion and enjoyment you will flounder?

 

[FeelMeUp]

It's not uncommon for one to see bad characters that fit you better than good characters(you see people switching off to low/mid tiers, for example). However, I think there's a point where the character reward outweighs comfort.
Switching off your Diddy to Zelda against a Sheik, for example, might not be the best idea even if Zelda is your #1 character.

 

[Deleted member]

He's actually really hard.

He's not great, but he arguably has the steepest learning curve in the game regardless. I actually admire people who can utilise him effectively in any case because of the complexity of his playstyle. You need some real quick thinking and situational awareness to get him to function properly at all.

Pretty much. You both nailed it on the head.

I'm pretty reserved on my opinion when it comes to Shulk's viability. If anything I think he's high part of low tier, the character can't be anything better than low-mid due to the severity of his flaws. Some Shulk mains are very optimistic about the character, but I'm not one of them. Can he put in work at high levels of play? Of course, most characters can. He's been getting pretty decent results this year overall as well, especially compared to last year.

But there are a lot of factors that contribute to his low tournament representation, such as him legitimately having the highest learning curve in the game. Having to work around some of the worst frame data on average in the game with awareness of the Arts/proficient use of MALLC and movement is very taxing at the highest level, and I'm not even saying this to make him look more complex than he actually is.

It's not uncommon for one to see bad characters that fit you better than good characters(you see people switching off to low/mid tiers, for example). However, I think there's a point where the character reward outweighs comfort.
Switching off your Diddy to Zelda against a Sheik, for example, might not be the best idea even if Zelda is your #1 character.

Nicko actually dropped Cloud for solo Shulk, so that's an example.

 

[NairWizard]

Pikachu is relatively speaking my "best" character, but I'll be damned if I ever switch to Pikachu in a competitive setting again, at least not while I have the ability to play more rewarding characters.

At some point, for most mid or low tiers, it doesn't matter how good you are with a character relative to the rest of the cast. The character's limitations will be the basis of the larger gap.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Pikachu is relatively speaking my "best" character, but I'll be damned if I ever switch to Pikachu in a competitive setting again, at least not while I have the ability to play more rewarding characters.

At some point, for most mid or low tiers, it doesn't matter how good you are with a character relative to the rest of the cast. The character's limitations will be the basis of the larger gap.

Who do you play instead, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Nobie]

I've thought about character complexity recently, but more in the broad sense that a lot of players who claim they play a character due to their depth only do so if it means they become roughly the best character in the game as a result. Like, when Ryu was thought to be top of top tier everyone wanted to get a piece of that, but as soon as he MIGHT "only" be high tier, suddenly people are abandoning him.

In a way, I admire Shulk players because they're actually people who revel in learning a lot of intricacies even if it doesn't result in a top tier. Some might call that foolishness, but I feel like it exemplifies learning a character as its own reward.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This isn't ****ing 1990 anymore where FG's have only 12ish chars. This game has near 60 chars and about 15 that are damn good and you can't find a strong char that fits you?

Get all the way the **** off my smashboards, thank you very much.

You play a bad char in this day and age, it just means you are a masochist or you don't care about winning at all.

 

[Y2Kay]

I honestly can't even remember what caused me to choose Greninja as a main. When I first started playing the game, I had no idea who was good, who was bad, and what I actually wanted out of character.

But now I can't imagine myself playing anyone else

 

[NairWizard]

Who do you play instead, if you don't mind me asking?

Marionetta

+ , that is

 

[TDK]

Funnily enough, since dropping Rosa my sets with Link have gotten better. Not trying to split attention or rely on a secondary can be pretty big.

 

[TDK]

2GG: Pay it Forward (272 Entrants)

1st: VoiD
2nd: JK
3rd: Tyrant
4th: Ito
5th: Aphro
5th: Aarvark
7th: Vash
7th: Zenyou
9th: Eon (???)
9th: TearBear
9th: Falln
9th: Zan
13th: Mr. ConCon
13th: TLTC
13th: Charliedaking
13th: AC

@Das Koopa

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

13th out of 272 with the bird

Further cements my stance on AC being a top 2 falco along with anragon. AC has been doing well in SoCal for a while now, he even got top 32 at Abadango Saga

 

[Fenny]

2GG: Pay it Forward (272 Entrants)

1st: VoiD
2nd: JK
3rd: Tyrant
4th: Ito
5th: Aphro
5th: Aarvark
7th: Vash
7th: Zenyou
9th: Eon (???)
9th: TearBear
9th: Falln
9th: Zan
13th: Mr. ConCon
13th: TLTC
13th: Charliedaking
13th: AC

@Das Koopa

Oh good job JK

He's definitely slept on amongst the Bayos, he's the only one to have taken a set from VoiD in tourney for an achievement

 

[TDK]

Going to mention quickly that IceNinja 2-0 Alphicans

That's a decent upset, but I'm pointing out that Alphicans played Diddy like Little Mac: He stayed near the centre of the stage and rarely jumped much (some short hops here and there) and when he was off the stage he got edge guarded hard.

It looks like some traits from your main will always trickle down into your secondaries. Food for thought when analyzing non-main matches.

https://www.twitch.tv/canadacup3

 

[Jalil]

With vine coming to an end, Greninja is sure to drop a few tiers

 

[Y2Kay]

With vine coming to an end, Greninja is sure to drop a few tiers

HEY THIS IS A SENSITIVE TIME OK????

 

[BSP]

Puts DH at #2. Doesn't even mention Pac. At least explain why that he's not on the list.

"Lemons have barely any lag"

30 frames is "barely"?

Okay list but I can't help but feel Pacman should have at least been mentioned.

I thought this too at first, but then I reconsidered. The BSD video said top 5 projectile characters, not top 5 projectiles. Do you think Pac-Man's projectile game flows as well as the characters mentioned in the top 5? I don't think so.

In fact, I still think that's a major roadblock to Pac-Men right now, or at least until his infinites become commonplace. There's too much focus on Pac-Man's easily countered projectiles and telegraphed setups and not enough emphasis on going over there and killing people \ air combos.

Then you may as well slap a sign on Luigi that says "must have turbo fingers to be successful".

The difficulty of jumpless cyclone in this game is the reason I don't play Luigi in this game lol. I feel like it's a must to be competitive with him, but I do not want to bother mashing that fast >_>

When you have top tiers like Mewtwo, Sheik, Fox, Sonic, and Zero Suit Samus, it's hard to say that Bayonetta has good mbility.

Her air acceleration is good, but her run speed is barely top 30, her walk speed is bad, and her air speed is hanging in that mid 30s range.

Her natural mobility, at best, is excruciatingly average.*

*Her Heel Slide and After Burner kick do give her a few nice burst mobility options though.

I try to say this about Mario but tend to get glossed over. Yes, top 10 air speed, I get it. Still doesn't help him get from point A to B "fast" relative to the rest of the cast.