Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

While Hax doesn't extrapolate on Doc's issues, he states that Ganondorf and the Mario clones are both terrible and provides some brief comments on characters:

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sp0s22

Also referencing SmashG0d's very detailed tier list that puts Doc quite low;

https://smashbl0g.wordpress.com/2016/06/05/my-2016-melee-tier-list-v2-0/

The general opinion of Melee players and Luigi's prominence among at least a few high-level players versus Doc's complete lack of play at the top level after Shroomed dropped him compelled me to follow the logic that he's effectively a low tier. Luigi and Yoshi are bordering on this to begin with.

If this is your reasoning then I can respect it, though it might have been an idea to make this clearer.

I feel like the quality of how a character is built and whether or not they're "good" is entirely relative to the rest of the cast. If that's the case, Mario definitely has a pretty rough ride across the Smash games.

Wangera got 3rd at GENESIS 3 in Smash 64 with and won Kanto 2016. Far from bad. In fact, a lot of mid/low tiers have success in 64 beyond Isai occasionally using them.

I agree she's good in Melee by happy accident, since almost everything that made her good as a glass cannon was stripped away by game mechanics in the following titles.

I would agree that good/bad is only meaningful relative to the rest of the cast. In which case I suppose I'm contradicting myself a bit/going too easy on Brawl Mario; my point is just that the character is not disadvantaged purely by design.

Puff's results are nothing more than decent. Wangera is just one other player (who also happens to be extremely talented) and Mid-tiers are bound to get good results from time to time. To my knowledge, most if not all other notable Puff players use her as a secondary and back her up with high tiers.

Is "bad" too harsh? Maybe, but 64 isn't a game where you should be using anyone outside the top 3 or 4. Realistically, were the community bigger, few would be playing anyone besides Pikachu.

EDIT: Das Koopa (to avoid clogging up the thread with this)

Top 5 in 64 is somewhat meaningless when you consider that it encompasses almost half the cast.

It's also possible that Wangera is carrying the character. Though with a game as (sadly) underplayed as 64 it might not be fair to say that. Puff's combo game does impress me, I just don't think she offers anything compared the characters above her (and as discussed, "bad" is relative).

 

[Das Koopa]

...I'd call double eliminating Isai and being a top 5 contender in 64 more than "decent" ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)

I would agree that good/bad is only meaningful relative to the rest of the cast. In which case I suppose I'm contradicting myself a bit/going too easy on Brawl Mario; my point is just that the character is not disadvantaged purely by design.

Well, I'd agree with this. His tools are often inadequate depending on the game but his design isn't a trainwreck like the most consistently worse-off characters.

 

[Fenny]

I think the shots are too weak to stop most charged projectiles, and that is discounting the awfull angle of shooting, but you have the experience so i'll shut up.

Hence 'most'.

 

[Deleted member]

FOW and Shaky are both confirmed to be going to Genesis 4.

Going to be exciting to see Ness at top level like this again, here's to hoping they perform well.

 

[wedl!!]

Simple, ABK has relatively low damage outfit, meaning almost all charged projectiles outpriotitize it. The Water Shuriken is particularly useful thanks to a huge hitbox, quick charge slow speed and trapping ability that can take Bayoneta down for a counter combo.

wtf??? what kind of bayos are you playing where they can't even counterpoke with divekick properly

 

[Piipp]

I mean mechanically why is Bayo not top tier? I know she doesn't have as much representation. The whole "loses to projectiles" thing is fantasy. With aerial abk as an option, how does she not quickly break a projectile wall? Why does Shiek's frame data or Diddy's Diddy stuff matter more than Bayo's ability to end a stock at 20% if she just pays enough attention to see which way you DI? She even has incredibly safe tools in neutral that rival the best Shiek and Diddy have (wt oos, divekick are both safe on shield, incredibly fast, and start her combo game). Is there a really common MU where she gets gimped really easily somehow? What's keeping her down?

She actually has about as much high/top level representation as Sonic, if not more.

 

[TDK]

With all these out of the way character mains and retired players coming to genesis 4 it's looking to be as exciting, if not more than genesis 3.

(Genesis 3 is still my favourite tournament of al time.)

 

[Deleted member]

With all these out of the way character mains and retired players coming to genesis 4 it's looking to be as exciting, if not more than genesis 3.

(Genesis 3 is still my favourite tournament of al time.)

So far, all the notable players signed up for G4:

Spoiler: cool peeps going to Genesis 4

TSM ZeRo
Liquid Nairo (?)
dT Dabuz
Mr. R (?)
LG Abadango
C9 Ally
eLevate FAD Larry Lurr
CLG VoiD
Ranai
IMT ANTi
komirikiri
FOW (YES)
DNL Marss
PG ESAM
Tweek
Shaky (DOUBLE YES)
9B
Vinnie
SF HDG MKLeo
Circa 6WX
NME Tyrant
Zinoto
PG Trela
RAIN
SlayerZ
TNS All Might (manny please)
DNG Nietono
Earth
CLG NAKAT
False
Mr. ConCon
Ito
NME Xzax
LooK falln
Fly | Fatality
Cacogen
VS NickRiddle
Tearbear
DKwill
GGA JJROCKETS
UNV | Ksev
Pugwest
Mister Eric
JET Papa Wall
DMG James
Player-1
Samsora
SF Regi Shikimi
Cosmos
DMG CaptainZack
Rich Brown
PG FAD Zan
VSB CACAW Big D
Captain L
TE | Trevonte
SCB TLTC
Brood
taranito
JK

So much character variety from here alone, and only 444 people are signed up out of what will definitely near 2,600+. It's impressive.

 

[Ramserss]

I would like to start a discussion about yoshi in the current meta, for example his overall mus with top tiers and what does he bring to the table that other characters don't. As well as his weaknesses, for example his lack of kill power or poor grab game.

 

[ARISTOS]

I would like to start a discussion about yoshi in the current meta, for example his overall mus with top tiers and what does he bring to the table that other characters don't. As well as his weaknesses, for example his lack of kill power or poor grab game.

Yoshi is the Smash equivalent of a Scooby-Doo villain.

Super scary at first, then you figure out the mystery and realize it's just a loser in a costume.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Yoshi gets eaten alive by two of the most popular(if not the most popular) characters in the game.
Without a really good bracket he should never be making top 8.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I would like to start a discussion about yoshi in the current meta, for example his overall mus with top tiers and what does he bring to the table that other characters don't. As well as his weaknesses, for example his lack of kill power or poor grab game.

I wouldn't say Yoshi has a lack of kill power. One of my closest friends plays Yoshi, so I've been on the receiving end of his finishers a fair few times.

What I would say he lacks, in a similar area, is KO setups. His finishers are decent, but they are all just throwing out a move clean or with a read and hope they hit.

Yoshi's Down Special is a surprisingly forgotten move from personal experience, especially up close. Substitute this at close range instead of a grab and you're a winner.

His lack of a real grab game is a definite issue, but he's solid in just about every other area, to be fair.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi is the Smash equivalent of a Scooby-Doo villain.

Super scary at first, then you figure out the mystery and realize it's just a loser in a costume.

this is literally the funniest post in this thread in a while, ngl

He's kinda like Wario (but not to the same extent) where the DLC onsalught went on to put a damper on his viability. Cloud in of itself is a pretty bad matchup for Yoshi.

 

[Ramserss]

Yoshi gets eaten alive by two of the most popular(if not the most popular) characters in the game.
Without a really good bracket he should never be making top 8.

Yoshi is the Smash equivalent of a Scooby-Doo villain.

Super scary at first, then you figure out the mystery and realize it's just a loser in a costume.

Both sad and both are true, but what I mean is why place yoshi higher then someone like r.o.b or luigi?

 

[Ramserss]

I wouldn't say Yoshi has a lack of kill power. One of my closest friends plays Yoshi, so I've been on the receiving end of his finishers a fair few times.

What I would say he lacks, in a similar area, is KO setups. His finishers are decent, but they are all just throwing out a move clean or with a read and hope they hit.

Yoshi's Down Special is a surprisingly forgotten move from personal experience, especially up close. Substitute this at close range instead of a grab and you're a winner.

His lack of a real grab game is a definite issue, but he's solid in just about every other area, to be fair.

I agree, but I think it comes down to once the opponent figures out the yoshi players is kinda over you just not gonna kill them unless you get some jank set up and one of yoshi's best set ups (jab) stops working at higher percents.

 

[ARISTOS]

Both sad and both are true, but what I mean is why place yoshi higher then someone like r.o.b or luigi?

You shouldn't, as least for Luigi

 

[Ramserss]

You shouldn't, as least for Luigi

Thats what I'm thinking but most people seem to agree that yoshi who hasnt placed well at majors is better then luigi who has more people playing him and has done relatively better then yoshi at most majors.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yoshi having a "poor grab game" is about as much a meme as Bayonetta's "bad neutral". There are few - I'd personally argue no - better grabs in smash 4 than Yoshi's neutral B.

 

[Ramserss]

Yoshi having a "poor grab game" is about as much a meme as Bayonetta's "bad neutral". There are few - I'd personally argue no - better grabs in smash 4 than Yoshi's neutral B.

I was talking more about his grabs not his neutral b, and even then a smart player (or most top tiers) can avoid this by camping with projectiles or straight up out ranging it *cough cough CLOUD cough cough*

 

[|RK|]

Yoshi having a "poor grab game" is about as much a meme as Bayonetta's "bad neutral". There are few - I'd personally argue no - better grabs in smash 4 than Yoshi's neutral B.

Out of curiosity, what makes it so good?

 

[Ramserss]

Out of curiosity, what makes it so good?

Its a command grab that you can b-reverse and gives you insane amounts of momentum and its not to laggy, plus you can use it to cancel jump

 

[L9999]

Not even ****posting here but I would love to see how Snake would turn out in Smash 4

Easy bake top tier. He is heavy so he can tank rage, he has mine and grenade to gain stage control, something very important in Smash 4, and he has stupid disjoints that trivialize neutral.

FOW and Shaky are both confirmed to be going to Genesis 4.

Going to be exciting to see Ness at top level like this again, here's to hoping they perform well.

About damn time. Also, Taranito is going?! So hype.

RE: Yoshi: When was the last time he had a breakout performance? I can name some for low tier characters but not Yoshi.

 

[HoSmash4]

Yoshi's weaknesses (at least from my characters POV) are: recovery on egg toss, mediocre ground game, loses to disjoints, unique double jump means he can't sweet spot the ledge easily = landing gets punished, bad roll.

He still has explosive reward if he chain fairs/utilt/uair though and combined with strong smashes he can gain a lot of momentum quickly

Ledge trap with eggs as setups are a real deadly thing

Cloud and Diddy being real roadblocks are a problem (as well as not many niche matchups vs top tiers)

 

[Deleted member]

About damn time. Also, Taranito is going?! So hype.

Three of some of the most notable Ness mains going to G4. Somebody pinch me, I may be dreaming.

I'm curious as to how they'll all perform, especially since Shaky and FOW have been away from majors for so long. I think they still got it in them.

 

[verbatim]

Yoshi having a "poor grab game" is about as much a meme as Bayonetta's "bad neutral". There are few - I'd personally argue no - better grabs in smash 4 than Yoshi's neutral B.

Neither of his grabs work OOS. Pretty much every character w/ a tether grab that isn't really a tether grab has to make up for their horrible grabs in unique ways in order to do anything. Yoshi and Link's can force approaches and pressure with eggs. Villager's jab is safe on shield and in the random event that he does land a grab you're going for a ride.

When you look to the mid and low tiers w/ pseudo-tethers you start to get a better idea of how horrible not being able to grab OOS.

Pacman has guaranteed shieldbreak setups, water to move people in shield around, true blockchains into grab, and a frame 1 option OOS that beats shield, and he's still "bad" because of his grab. Imagine how terrifying it would be if someone viable like Mario got hydrant and gained the ability to do drive by up smash's.

BJR can cross people up on shields with his side b and down air, but that's about it. His disadvantage against shield, the limitations of his item relative to everyone else, and his poor recovery hold him down when pretty much any top tier in the game would take his forward or down airs.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

So far, all the notable players signed up for G4:

Spoiler: cool peeps going to Genesis 4

TSM ZeRo
Liquid Nairo (?)
dT Dabuz
Mr. R (?)
LG Abadango
C9 Ally
eLevate FAD Larry Lurr
CLG VoiD
Ranai
IMT ANTi
komirikiri
FOW (YES)
DNL Marss
PG ESAM
Tweek
Shaky (DOUBLE YES)
9B
Vinnie
SF HDG MKLeo
Circa 6WX
NME Tyrant
Zinoto
PG Trela
RAIN
SlayerZ
TNS All Might (manny please)
DNG Nietono
Earth
CLG NAKAT
False
Mr. ConCon
Ito
NME Xzax
LooK falln
Fly | Fatality
Cacogen
VS NickRiddle
Tearbear
DKwill
GGA JJROCKETS
UNV | Ksev
Pugwest
Mister Eric
JET Papa Wall
DMG James
Player-1
Samsora
SF Regi Shikmi
Cosmos
DMG CaptainZack
Rich Brown
PG FAD Zan
VSB CACAW Big D
Captain L
TE | Trevonte
SCB TLTC
Brood
taranito
JK

So much character variety from here alone, and only 444 people are signed up out of what will definitely near 2,600+. It's impressive.

Taranito is going to G4 also?!

Excited for some good Ness play, 199X is upon us.

 

[Krysco]

All of this hype for Ness mains attending...there just a lot of Ness mains/supporters or is he kinda like an underdog character? I know opinions of him tend to go down every now and then but he is still a high tier. Meanwhile, no hype for ESAM or Captain L~ I'd be hyped myself but I'll wait till top 16 comes and I see a Pika head pop up. Also, Esam has a Mewtwo now? Did Corrin not work out for him?

Something I find interesting is how this thread just got done discussing Pit and now Yoshi came up...they're both at the very top of mid tier. Meanwhile, Luigi is barely in the upper half of it. I'm wondering if Luigi will ever crawl up into the lower ends of high tier or at the very least the top of mid tier. He seems to have the results for it.

Looking at the G4 notable players, there's a surprising lack of Megaman, (outside of Abadango who seems to fall flat when he switches off Mewtwo) Greninja and Lucario. No Venia or Some or iStudying or Day. That's the only notable Lucario name that comes to mind...

 

[JayE]

I hope Ranai takes it this Genesis. But it'll be tough, lots of great players are gonna be there.

 

[TDK]

That's the only notable Lucario name that comes to mind...

Tsu~ and Motsunabe from Japan and Serge from Mexico are other notable Lucario mains.

EDIT: And Goma, too.

 

[BSP]

When you look to the mid and low tiers w/ pseudo-tethers you start to get a better idea of how horrible not being able to grab OOS.

I don't think it's so much not being able to grab OOS as it is having a quick, relatively low commitment way to stop people from shielding in neutral and when you're trying to apply pressure.

Good players are going to space their aerials so that even normal grabs can't get them, so I don't think the pseudo tethers are that alienated in that respect. If someone does space poorly with something that's ~ -8 through -11 or so to an OOS option, most of the bad grab characters can hit them with a different OOS option than grab. The Links are a bit screwed unless they have an item though.

 

[Krysco]

Tsu~ and Motsunabe from Japan and Serge from Mexico are other notable Lucario mains.

Right, how could I forget Serge. The Lucario who was in every VGBootcamp video title for a time. Legitimately forgot about Tsu~ and...Motsunabe (Mot-sun-Abe? Mot-su-nabe?Mot-su-nab-ee?). When is G4 anyway? Must be a ways away since I don't see anything about it on the front page and there was mention of there currently only being 444 contestants when there'll likely be 2k+

 

[L9999]

All of this hype for Ness mains attending...there just a lot of Ness mains/supporters or is he kinda like an underdog character? I know opinions of him tend to go down every now and then but he is still a high tier. Meanwhile, no hype for ESAM or Captain L~ I'd be hyped myself but I'll wait till top 16 comes and I see a Pika head pop up. Also, Esam has a Mewtwo now? Did Corrin not work out for him?

Something I find interesting is how this thread just got done discussing Pit and now Yoshi came up...they're both at the very top of mid tier. Meanwhile, Luigi is barely in the upper half of it. I'm wondering if Luigi will ever crawl up into the lower ends of high tier or at the very least the top of mid tier. He seems to have the results for it.

Looking at the G4 notable players, there's a surprising lack of Megaman, (outside of Abadango who seems to fall flat when he switches off Mewtwo) Greninja and Lucario. No Venia or Some or iStudying or Day. That's the only notable Lucario name that comes to mind...

The very best Ness players rarely show up and IIRC this is Taranito's first time in the US and it is exciting because he is very talented. There are people who still believe in Ness in competitive play but he gets a lot more circlejerking, so yes, you could he is an underdog.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

All of this hype for Ness mains attending...there just a lot of Ness mains/supporters or is he kinda like an underdog character? I know opinions of him tend to go down every now and then but he is still a high tier. Meanwhile, no hype for ESAM or Captain L~ I'd be hyped myself but I'll wait till top 16 comes and I see a Pika head pop up. Also, Esam has a Mewtwo now? Did Corrin not work out for him?

Something I find interesting is how this thread just got done discussing Pit and now Yoshi came up...they're both at the very top of mid tier. Meanwhile, Luigi is barely in the upper half of it. I'm wondering if Luigi will ever crawl up into the lower ends of high tier or at the very least the top of mid tier. He seems to have the results for it.

Looking at the G4 notable players, there's a surprising lack of Megaman, (outside of Abadango who seems to fall flat when he switches off Mewtwo) Greninja and Lucario. No Venia or Some or iStudying or Day. That's the only notable Lucario name that comes to mind...

Me personally I just like seeing high level Ness play. It helps my game as well as I can see what I should be aiming for when I play the character. I wouldn't say he's a underdog but he just has a lot of fans who are excited he is finally good after 3 games of futility lol.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So far, all the notable players signed up for G4:

Spoiler: cool peeps going to Genesis 4

TSM ZeRo
Liquid Nairo (?)
dT Dabuz
Mr. R (?)
LG Abadango
C9 Ally
eLevate FAD Larry Lurr
CLG VoiD
Ranai
IMT ANTi
komirikiri
FOW (YES)
DNL Marss
PG ESAM
Tweek
Shaky (DOUBLE YES)
9B
Vinnie
SF HDG MKLeo
Circa 6WX
NME Tyrant
Zinoto
PG Trela
RAIN
SlayerZ
TNS All Might (manny please)
DNG Nietono
Earth
CLG NAKAT
False
Mr. ConCon
Ito
NME Xzax
LooK falln
Fly | Fatality
Cacogen
VS NickRiddle
Tearbear
DKwill
GGA JJROCKETS
UNV | Ksev
Pugwest
Mister Eric
JET Papa Wall
DMG James
Player-1
Samsora
SF Regi Shikimi
Cosmos
DMG CaptainZack
Rich Brown
PG FAD Zan
VSB CACAW Big D
Captain L
TE | Trevonte
SCB TLTC
Brood
taranito
JK

So much character variety from here alone, and only 444 people are signed up out of what will definitely near 2,600+. It's impressive.

You3 is confirmed as well.

 

[Luco]

Bayonetta is just as unbalanced as the other top tiers, calling her anything short of top tier is dumb at this point. It's also dumb that were still using things like "top 5" at this point when there are at least 7 or 8 characters that are all around the same power level and all go even with each other with a few random debatable 45:55s thrown in. What matters now is who wins the most tournaments

Mewtwo better not be on this list, not with harambe's little angsty friend running around.

As a relevant note I've felt like top 10 has been established for a while now, consisting in some order of

Interesting enough to me is that we *still* can't pinpoint a "best" character. Sheik in theory maybe but practically she's far too strenuous and fragile for most players to be viable with her. Bayo's... Probably a contender for it but no-where near certain and there are MUs she might have to think about more in the future (I'm of the opinion strong grapplers can still give her trouble if they actually take the time to play around her 5 billion other options). Diddy might be up there too but at tippety top it's ZeRo and Zinoto and then ??? - maybe ZeRo was right all along and it's rosa. Yeah but meta's hard.

All of this hype for Ness mains attending...there just a lot of Ness mains/supporters or is he kinda like an underdog character? I know opinions of him tend to go down every now and then but he is still a high tier.

Try watching your main get circlejerked from top to high to "mid tier" whilst all of your top mains disappear into the void for most of a meta cycle, then experience the euphoria of getting it all back in one go. Now you understand. :>

 

[Krysco]

With all of the answers to my question, I can imagine something similar would happen for Ike if San, Ryo and Ryuga all attended a tournament. I remember before when there was a rather legitimate debating going on over which FE character was the best. They all started off rather poorly* and all slowly but surely got buffed* and yet here we are with Marth and Corrin in high tier while Robin is in mid tier, Ike and Lucina barely in mid tier and Roy barely in low tier.

I'd say the same for Greninja but the whole meme-phase for the frog seems to be over and most people recognize him as a high tier.

Pika would get a similar treatment if Esam or someone else placed consistently high with him

And come to think of it, Link would especially get it. Been deemed a poor character in every game, much like Ness and Sm4sh is the best he's ever been along with him having plenty of mains.

*Dragon boy being an exception.

 

[Deleted member]

And come to think of it, Link would especially get it. Been deemed a poor character in every game, much like Ness and Sm4sh is the best he's ever been along with him having plenty of mains.

Who even considers Link low tier anymore?

 

[Krysco]

Who even considers Link low tier anymore?

The current tier list though I do understand that it was made a while ago with the meta of that time in mind and was made by a bunch of people. Plus, iirc, Link had the highest deviation or one of. There's also likely some people who look at his poor frame data and movement and prior tier placements both in this game and previous ones and probably come to the conclusion that he's a low tier.

The big similarity I see with Link and Ness is how they both went through 3 games being anywhere from meh to absolute garbage and they both got buffed greatly in Sm4sh.

Also, seeing your reply got me thinking that I forgot about Shulk. Another character with potential to be viewed more favourably especially if all of his noteworthy mains showed up to a big tournament. Lacks any stigma from previous games though and doesn't have a negative meme related to him like Greninja, or at least, not competitively.

 

[Deleted member]

The current tier list though I do understand that it was made a while ago with the meta of that time in mind and was made by a bunch of people. Plus, iirc, Link had the highest deviation or one of. There's also likely some people who look at his poor frame daa and movement and prior tier placements both in this game and previous ones and probably come to the conclusion that he's a low tier.

The big similarity I see with Link and Ness is how they both went through 3 games being anywhere from meh to absolute garbage and they both got buffed greatly in Sm4sh.

Also, seeing your reply got me thinking that I forgot about Shulk. Another character with potential to be viewed more favourably especially if all of his noteworthy mains showed up to a big tournament. Lacks any stigma from previous games though and doesn't have a negative meme related to him like Greninja, or at least, not competitively.

I feel like Shulk has potential (I usually dislike that word, but eh) to rise in the future, but not by much. 40-38th is my best guess honestly. He's done pretty decently this year overall, Nicko getting just outside of top 10 (#11) in SoCal with solo Shulk is no small feat.

Nicko, Soronie and possibly Tremendo Dude are going to G4 and ZeRo Saga so that'll be rad. I just wish Darkwolf and Masha had the ability to travel outside of their respective regions.

Shulk's stigma is moreso from how overestimated he was in the early meta, along with people still making jokes in regards to his frame data or his techs. It's really exhausting to deal with but that's the life of a Shulk main. For how much I defend him I still don't think he's necessarily a good character, just alright.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Who even considers Link low tier anymore?

The same people who don think Bayonetta is a top tier from what I've seen