Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Baby_Sneak]

It's too calculated and specified.

You can't rate a MU that precisely, or else we would be saying the Mario rosa mu is 1.087531784 in her favor. Just say "easier, a bit of work, even, challenging, piss-poor, mt. Everest, etc..."

 

[Mega-Spider]

Kofu
If Villager pockets a Metal Blade, Mega Man can pull out another one. It's when Villager catches the Metal Blade that prevents Megs from using another one.

 

[Kofu]

Kofu
If Villager pockets a Metal Blade, Mega Man can pull out another one. It's when Villager catches the Metal Blade that prevents Megs from using another one.

Ah, so it's like Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit. As long as Villager is holding the item Mega Man/Pac-Man can't use their respective neutral specials, but if it's stowed away with Pocket they are free to use the move. I wonder what makes those attacks different from Gyro and (I think, I already got one wrong so lol) Banana Peel, where they can't even use those moves if the items are contained by Pocket.

 

[BananaBake]

Why decimal matchups...

ask Aarvark

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I've got a nice juicy Rob matchup chart from 8bitman for this thread

8bitman has reasoning. Text from his twitlonger:

This post will simply be going over the explanations for some of the placements on my ROB MU Chart. Please share/retweet if you are interested in me releasing information like this. I may do a full list at some point if this gets enough spotlight.

I will be starting from 30 - 70 and moving down the list. Just before getting into it, I want top say that every row is in as best of an order as I could possibly make. The first character in each row is the most difficult whereas the last one is the easiest in the particular ratio. ALSO, the first and last couple characters of each row CAN fluctuate between each Ratio. (IE, Falcon/Peach can definitely be Even, as well as Villager/Marth. But to the opposite degree of Even, meaning Marth is more difficult than Peach.)


ZSS is ROB's hardest MU and always has been, while I believe ROB wins neutral more often than her, his OoS options are nearly null and void against her approaches. The MU with Gyro in hand is ROB's most advantageous position in any match, since he can pull off the best and safest punishes with it. However, due to ZSS's combo game, ROB nets anywhere from 5% to 25% per punish where as ZSS can rack up nearly twice that along with an edgeguard situation and in most cases, a stock. This is due to his lanky hurtbox and perfect weight for ZSS to essentially cream herself over the combo's she can pull off on ROB.

Cloud was probably the hardest pick on ROB's worst 10 MU's for me. I feel he can fluctuate between 40 - 60 and 30 - 70. But the reason I made the choice to put him in 30 - 70 is because he is better at juggling ROB and is harder to hit than any of the characters under him on this list. His edgeguard game and punishes are far superior to everyone under him besides maybe Bayonetta.

Bayonetta has the potential to be a 30 - 70 with the best damage output in the game. But ROB can box out Bayo better than any of his Worst 10 MU's. This MU is just more extreme with the ZSS factor in that she can win neutral 3 times and take a stock whereas ROB must poke and win neutral at least 8 times since his punishes cannot be over committed. Goodluck getting a spike!

Yoshi is ROB's most EVEN MU in the game. Yoshi does not have anything guaranteed out of grab or Egg Lay to shield and OoS options like Fair and Dtilt are huge in the MU. ROB boxes Yoshi out very well and edgeguards him better than most characters. On the flip side, ROB cannot over commit as Yoshi's Nair and UpAir are BOTH combo breakers and Combo Starters (Weak hit Nair OBV). Yoshi is very underwhelming in neutral as Eggs are easier to deal with than other projectiles. But once he lands a hit on ROB, the MU can snowball. Jab to imagination is also very practical as hiding in shield often in the MU leads to choosing defensive options such as Sidestep, my jumpsquat, and roll. All of which can be covered by jab. I want to note that sometimes even jab with shield poke since ROB almost never has a full shield in this MU.

I may continue doing character reviews if this gets enough retweets.


Next I will be listing characters that I am not the best at or simply just don't know.

Corrin, ToonLink, MegaMan, MetaKnight, Greninja, Pit and Mexican Pit, Lucas, Falco, Shulk, Doctor Mario, Game&Watch, Bowser Jr., and JigglyPuff.

Assuming this is read, I want to try and get Mister Eric, Holy and Raffi-X all together and put together a MU Chart, but I also want to make a list of characters that we can put our tags in front of so players can message us for MU knowledge. For example, I feel Mister Eric would be best at the GnW MU since MD/VA has like 5 of them. lol

 

[MistressRemilia]

I'm not a great Villager but I do have input on this MU chart.

MistressRemilia Doc is inherently worse than Mario in most MUs because of his worse mobility and recovery. This goes for the Villager MU too. Villager is good at exploiting bad recoveries, and it's easier to keep Doc out because he can't just drift back into Villager's zone like Mario can. That said, I think the Mario MU is worse than what the list says; his Cape and strong grab game are good tools against Villager. Doc retains both of those, and as such I have a hard time seeing the Doc MU as any better than even for Villager.

Mega-Spider I dunno if Inhale was factored into the MU; it certainly swings things towards Kirby's favor. I don't really like the matchup though. Neither character can approach the other, and while Villager is great at gimping Kirby, Kirby can also do a lot of damage if he gets in. If the Villager is willing to play really lame I could see it being as strong of an advantage as is listed there but I'm not convinced.

Regarding Mega Man, he outcamps Villager though a combination of pellets and general mobility. I kind of feel like Villager players are approaching the MU wrong, though. If you try to play your usual aerial game you'll get demolished. Instead, relying on NAir and Jab to combat Mega's poor boxing game help to make it more bearable. I want to say that Mega Man can't pull out another Metal Blade if you have one Pocketed, too, but I could be remembering wrong.

@Chainz. DK's overall more mobile than other heavies and has better pokes. He still gets edgeguarded hard and is a big target. I'd put him closer to Bowser myself.

@TDK I really don't feel it's that bad for Link. His sword is scary, and his grab makes playing the midrange game with him a little challenging. Bombs can also be a nuisance (maybe that's just me though). He tends to be prime edgeguard material if you get him offstage, but that's not always easy. He's kind of a fortress and zoning missteps will be punished hard. He also has a formidable edgeguard game himself, and as Villager's Up-B lacks a hitbox, it's quite possible to die while trying to recovery.

I also don't think that Game & Watch has that much of an advantage on Villager. The MU is quite even, IMO, as long as you don't let Game & Watch fill his bucket with Lloids.

My little joke on Docs matchups vs Mario AND Luigi's was an understatement, tackling a real issue, which is mindless rating of the doc matchup based on the correct, yet imprecise fact that Dr.Mario is indeed worse than Mario & Luigi. The biggest issue is the case where both Mario & Luigi win the matchup, yet somehow Doc loses it. Now dont get me wrong, the mindset i'm showcasing is as thoughtless as putting Doc in your winning matchups when you lose to Mario & Luigi, but most of the time, the reason behind Doc losing some matchups is simply because of the low tier factor, and not because of Doc's specific struggle on something. Let me be clear, there aren't a lot of matchups that both Luigi & Mario win that Doc doesn't go at least even with, due to the fact that if you lose to both Mario & Luigi, the struggle your character has specifically against these two is most likely there with Dr.Mario as well, as he retains a fair amount of pros from them, such as the non commital aspect of some of their move in the neutral, or the consistent advantage state.

I'll take the case of Villager as an example, but this could apply to many matchups:
Mario & Dr.Mario in this matchup both share a fairly non commital aerial game thanks to the ability of their aerials to sometimes trade with whats thrown and of course, the great ( moreso on doc's case ) antizoning tool that is Cape, they win in close range can stomach through the whole process of getting there. The reward for doing so is fairly consistent as, even if Villager's disadvantage is among the best, both characters share a fair amount of consistency in their advantage state to threaten Villager. Jumping right into the interesting part: What makes this worse for Doc, then? Well, the loss in mobility will make the neutral stated above a bit more tedious & prone to you getting sometimes damaged, even though your antizoning tool got a lot more reliable. You're also more suspectible in disadvantge, even though it isn't that hard to deal with, let's just say the threat of getting your landing & recovery punished is more present. Finally, our advantage state, while good, wont rivalize the damage output of Mario in a fair amount of cases, mostly in mid%, it is however important to respect Doc's stronger out of shield & more reliable killing mixups, that may or may not be able to catch you quite early.
Does this justify Doc/Villager being a bit worse than Mario/Villager? Surely, the struggle that can sometimes be felt in neutral due to its tedious factor may be quite troublesome for a Doc player to properly deal with. However, the tools at our disposal still allow us to play a respectable neutral against Villager, in an attempt to reach a close range, where Doc does win.

So what have we learned? Well, that is actually rather simple to accurately rate your character's matchup against Doc if you do know the basics of Mario as well as the noteworthy differences between the two characters. That way, you can make up how " slower Mario " actually play neutral against you, what he's trying to achieve, what you have to respect & what you could potentially exploit, it really that simple, so please, do that small work before putting Doc in -1 of your character's MU spread.

 

[Sinister Slush]

ask Aarvark

Think even if I asked it wouldn't change anything. Can people just go back to using 0 1 2 3 + - for matchups instead of going into decimals or thinking 55:45/45:55 = Even when that makes 0 sense.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Despite being a zard lover I agree with this chart. Zard can disintegrate gyros with his flamethrower but the angle has to be precise and he still has laser to worry about. Then there's the fact that all of R.O.B's combos are almost sure things. However R.O.B has problems with zard ledgeguarding him when zard gets half a chance and recovering low on zard is suicide due to down smash, forward smash, and down aerial. Yeah zard has SOME counters to R.O.B but they're limited and situational.

 

[Krysco]

Oh thank Ashera. I posted a bit of the post I was talking about to my cousin on Skype when it was first brought up. Doesn't show the name of the poster so credit goes to whoever it was that posted this. Gonna post it again just for general knowledge passing and I'm saving this image to my computer. Originally just wanted it because Classic 9.0 but it has competitive use too.

"On the topic of edgeguarding, how many characters have an aerial that ends in 35 or less frames? That kind of aerial is a really valuable tool offstage since it allows you to cover airdodges really easily by throwing out another attack if they airdodge your first one."

 

[|RK|]

Oh thank Ashera. I posted a bit of the post I was talking about to my cousin on Skype when it was first brought up. Doesn't show the name of the poster so credit goes to whoever it was that posted this. Gonna post it again just for general knowledge passing and I'm saving this image to my computer. Originally just wanted it because Classic 9.0 but it has competitive use too.

"On the topic of edgeguarding, how many characters have an aerial that ends in 35 or less frames? That kind of aerial is a really valuable tool offstage since it allows you to cover airdodges really easily by throwing out another attack if they airdodge your first one."

Could you explain how this works, exactly? Does start-up time factor into this calculation, or...?

EDIT: Also, wouldn't endlag be more important as well?

 

[Deleted member]

Villager discord MU, freshly made. Thoughts? Done with the help of Aarvark

I would say Shulk goes even with Villager, honestly. Another high tier matchup he does relatively well in. If he plays it patiently enough I believe Shulk has the slight edge. He can get around Villager's camping/conditioning very well and has the tools to go deep and aggressively edgeguard his recovery. In my experience with Villagers an area where Shulk can be disadvantaged at points is at the ledge. If you don't snap with Air Slash or properly space it far enough away from Villager so the second hit swats them away while they're letting go of the bowling ball so you can recover safely, it isn't fun.

These are two good showcases of the matchup:

 

[Megamang]

Megaman, in the process of just normal lemon zoning, negates a ton of villagers projectiles. Then, leaf shield and metal blade pierce lloyd, the former beats most every projectile and MB at least trades it away. Crash bomber even gets some use, detonating on lloyd and trees.

Bair poaches him out of the sky easily, and uair juggles work decent. Pocket may protect him from a singular uair, but its more like the entirety of the uair bair juggle situation that is the problem.

Villager cant zone megaman, but his good CqC mostly falls short of megaman's zoning. Nair wont beat nair buster hitbox unless youve closed the gap a crazy amount, which is hard because Megaman is much more mobile and fast in the air.

Oh, and dair is definitely landable when they commit to balloons, they can weave but you essentially get a nice guessing game at no real risk, its easy to fire the dair and just land and cover the ledge.


Re: Luigi

This was much more surprising to me. I just assumed Zoning ability + high tier CQC + edgeguarding + safe on shieldish smashes (that become safe vs low traction) + camp focus >>>> Luigi. But apparently its way better for him than I initially thought, so... why? Powershield grab combos seem decent, but Villager has a good enough nair. Is tornado gimping that painful for villager?

 

[Krysco]

Could you explain how this works, exactly? Does start-up time factor into this calculation, or...?

EDIT: Also, wouldn't endlag be more important as well?

The bit in quotes and in white is just what I posted from the old cci to my cousin on Skype. To my understanding, the usefulness of aerials with 35 faf or lower against airdodges has to do with the most common airdodge length being intangible from frames 3 - 28 with an faf of 34 and the next most common being intangible frames 3 - 27 with an faf of 33. You throw out an aerial with a low faf at or near the same time as an air dodge and then follow up with an aerial with low start up and you should be able to catch them...I think...again, just quotes I found on Skype. Finding this exact post and the details about it in the old cci with 605 pages sounds...unpleasant.

Edit: Sent the Skype message to him on April 5th so I'll see if I can't find it.
Edit 2: Found it! https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.429826/page-236#post-21069646

 

[Aaron1997]

PogChamp

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Could you explain how this works, exactly? Does start-up time factor into this calculation, or...?

EDIT: Also, wouldn't endlag be more important as well?

That's almost exactly what I was thinking, say you have a high startup aerial with low end lag but then a low start up aerial you can use afterwards? Sure it might not have a faf of 35 but it has the cooldown

Can we take a moment to talk about how ridiculous Link's ledge game potential is? He can beat almost every get up option with bomb + nair/utilt/fair and can challenge most recoveries with long long lasting, high damage, disjointed hitboxes that cover both below and to the sides of him and multiple projectiles, and low cooldown moves to force airdodges. I really fail to see how hes a low tier

 

[Krysco]

Seeing as how I rebrought up that post (which I can now give credit to @ARGHETH for) and it lacks the moves listed, I went on Kurogane and found which moves they were.

Spoiler: faf < 35 group

fair 1 faf = 27, fair 2 = 32, nair = 33, bair and uair = 30. Next fastest hitbox is either Witch Twist at f4 or fair 2/3 which is listed to have a hitbox on f7/12. Not sure how that works since for example, Ike's jab 2 is listed as coming out f3 but it takes longer to get to since you have to go through jab1.
uair faf = 26. Uair is also the fastest aerial to get out again at f6
Same as Jr. with uair faf = 34 and uair coming out f6
bair faf = 31 and uair comes out f4
Special case with DK. Bair faf = 32 with next fastest hitbox being f4 Spinning Kong but that puts you in helpless. After that, it's f6 uair
uair faf = 32, bair = 34. Nair and SJP are f3
uair faf = 34. Nair is f3
uair faf = 34 and is f6
nair faf = 16, dair = 28. Nair is f2
bair faf = 31 and is f6
fair faf = 28, dair = 31. Dair is f4
fair faf = 24, dair = 29 and uair = 30. Nair is f3
Same as Doc.
Nair 1 faf = 34. Next fastest is either nair 2 or f4 bair.
uair faf = 27, dair = 28. Dair is f4
uair faf = 35. Pikmin Toss faf = 25. Nair and fair are f7.
fair faf = 26. Nair is f3
uair faf = 27. Nair is f3
fair faf = 34. Elwind 1 is f8 while nair and bair are f9.
fair faf = 30. Uair is f5
nair faf = 28 and is f4
fair faf = 35. Nair is f3
nair faf = 35. Bair is f5
uair faf = 34. Boost Kick is f4 while fair and uair are f6

Spoiler: faf = 36 group

fair faf = 36. Nair is f6
uair faf = 36. Nair is f4
nair and bair faf = 36. Nair is f5
fair faf = 36 and is f6
nair and bair faf = 36. Nair is f3
Also not listed
bair faf = 36
Super Sheet faf = 36
bair faf = 36
Same as Doc
bair faf = 36
uair faf = 36

Spoiler: Aerial lasting >=20 group

dair is f11-42
nair is f7-29
nair is f6-37
nair is f6-30 and dair starts on f7 and ends on f32
nair starts on f7 and ends on f40
nair is f5-32
nair is f9-46 and uair is f8-29
nair is f6-38
uair is f11-40
nair is f4-38
nair is f3-25 and dair starts on f16 and ends on f41
Not listed in the original post but also
dair is f15-39
fair starts on f7 and ends on f33
uair is f11-40 and dair is f18-64
bair starts on f4 and ends on f33
uair is f6-31 and dair is f8-31 regardless of turnips
nair is f10-34
Mach Tornado is f12 up to f44(?)
Dr. Tornado is f10-33
Same as Doc
Guessing nair and uair held work too.

Could've easily missed some.

 

[DunnoBro]

Honestly the only thing truly worse about doc than mario is the disadvantage state.

His neutral is moderately superior due to much safer on shield moves, even pills are better neutral tools while fireballs are better advantage/disadvantage tools.

Advantage is moderately better too, due to again higher knockback moves and kill confirms off grab. Ledge coverage with nair, oos upb, and even his cape is way more potent. Don't underestimate the carried momentum. Mario's has to be a read, Doc's actually demands respect in more situations, and is guaranteed death at any percent since he can keep caping.

Mobility, and fludd do allow mario to truly deal with every MU but Doc actually functions better overall in every category except disadvantage. While he's always forced to approach, the reward is much higher.

 

[Jamurai]

I would say Mario's advantage state is certainly comparable to Doc's, although their strengths are different. Mario's superior mobility allows him to capitalise on mid-air string situations better and cover more options there, as well as juggle opponents much more easily, especially top tiers who tend have really good aerial burst movement options. His damage racking off of grab is as good if not better as well.
Doc has higher kill power and a generous kill confirm off of grab is a really big deal to be fair. His frame data (like Mario's) allows him to trap quite well. He has scary moves to (l)edgeguard with also, Mario doesn't have the weird Nair, a horizontal-knockback Uair and the frankly terrifying down-B. Doc's Bair is more powerful as well with the same frame data and range (maybe slightly better range? Can't remember).

As for the neutral game... A good Doc makes you scared to hit his shield. He covers all angles around him with a combination of Bair for the back, grab, up-B and Uair (low short hop) for the front, Usmash for everywhere (and Nair to a lesser extent). He has a similar gameplan to Mario in dash/walk > shield > repeat, threatening grabs with their quick OoS and lightening-fast buttons, but Doc's shield demands more respect because he has high damage per hit, and (thus) high knockback converting into stage control and (l)edgeguard situations where he strikes fear, arguably more so than Mario. But not Luigi lol.

 

[NairWizard]

Doc's on-stage disadvantage is better than Mario's, because cape + Docnado is actually really potent.

It's not about advantage or disadvantage. It's totally all neutral. You can camp Doc out much more easily than you can camp Mario out.

You think Mario-Sonic is bad?

Try playing Doc-Sonic. God. Makes me want to eat my own arm.

 

[Deleted member]

Abadango's matchup chart.

Interestingly, he believes Mewtwo doesn't have a significant advantage over any characters. That's something I can agree on, actually. I don't think he loses to Cloud but that's just me.

 

[Myollnir]

To me, that looks like the matchup chart of a Top 5 character.

Regarding the post about long-lasting aerials, 's N-air hitbox lasts from Frame 10 to Frame 34. But his airspeed is very poor so I'm not sure if you want to count it.

He's good at punishing airdodges close to the ground though, with an autocancelled U-air (hitbox is 10-15 and AC window is >22). Preferably a reverse U-air.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I think something that could be really useful in top level play over time is instant turn-around perfect pivots. Perfect pivoting could be so much more versatile as a tool for aggression if it didn't cause one to turn in the opposite direction after using it. So if you want to use it offensively, your options are limited to ftilts and some utilts. Imagine if you could perfect pivot in and follow up with jabs and downtilts. That would really be something.

Maybe stepdash will save us lol

 

[wedl!!]

If stepdashing weren't so dammed difficult and finicky and its utility was more universal, we'd likely be seeing more of it.

As it stands now, it's more of a "nice to have" thing that no one has really developed.

 

[FeelMeUp]

VoiD has developed his style of stepdashing much further than anyone else has even attempted to. It's an integral part of his gameplay with Sheik and Fox.

 

[Deleted member]

If there's anything I want to talk about it's seeing how Melee players adapt to this game.

An example would be Wizzrobe, top professional 64/Melee player that happens to main Sheik in Smash 4. He just got 9th at a 184-man regional this weekend before losing to Spark and Rideae. He's already a player known for spreading his fundamentals well across all Smash titles, but he plays a safe and basic playstyle with Sheik that ends up being very rewarding.

 

[soniczx123]

If stepdashing weren't so dammed difficult and finicky and its utility was more universal, we'd likely be seeing more of it.

As it stands now, it's more of a "nice to have" thing that no one has really developed.

We said the same thing about footstool combos and Perfect Pivots, now they are essential parts of the meta.

Nothing in this game is too difficult. You just need to practice it until it sits in your muscle memory.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If there's anything I want to talk about it's seeing how Melee players adapt to this game.

An example would be Wizzrobe, top professional 64/Melee player that happens to main Sheik in Smash 4. He just got 9th at a 184-man regional this weekend before losing to Spark and Rideae. He's already a player known for spreading his fundamentals well across all Smash titles, but he plays a safe and basic playstyle with Sheik that ends up being very rewarding.

I don't see much to discuss about here.

There are currently no well known mainly-Melee players doing particularly well in smash 4. A few of the top smash 4 players may be [or have been] great Melee players [M2K or Larry come to mind] but I don't know anybody who started off with Melee, became great at that game, then skipped Brawl before becoming great at smash 4 again. All of smash 4's best players were either top level players in Brawl already or they started to do well during smash 4's history at some point.

Wizzrobe placing 9th at a moderately sized regional tournament is not a big deal. If his play were "very rewarding" he'd do better than he currently does. Nor am I sure about how much time he actually invests into the game. But as things stand there are no "Melee mains" who do well at top level play in smash 4.

 

[Luco]

I agree on Jebb and Xanos, but what has PK Blueberry done at all recently?

(still feel like Mekos is very... not talked about for whatever reason by many)

Blue is rising on his PR whereas I feel mekos is still struggling a little bit to come out of the woodworks in this game. He did get 7th at a large regional but his result was overshadowed by Xanos' Lucas who got 5th. PK Blueberry has some decent set wins I'm pretty sure ( I keep getting confused between his wins and Jebb's, didn't one of them beat @Seagull Joe ? PK Blueberry definitely went very close with Dabuz and forced a switch to Oli though), but you might be right tbh.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Almost every Mu chart I see looks like 10-20 characters should be the best in the game.

 

[Floor]

Almost every Mu chart I see looks like 10-20 characters should be the best in the game.

I feel the same. MU charts have a tendency to overestimate or overglorify the characters abilities. It's best to look at a MU chart for both characters; the truth would lie somewhere in the middle.

v comes to mind. Most Marcina mains I've come across declare the match up is in Marcinas favor (slightly) while some ROB mains say that they win slightly. In truth, it's an even matchup, most definitely.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Has the general opinion on risen at all in the eyes of anyone participating in this thread?

 

[MistressRemilia]

Has the general opinion on risen at all in the eyes of anyone participating in this thread?

Well, quite frankly, mine hasn't really changed. I still see Luigi as a character who's solo viability is very compromised due to his neutral echoes against the better zoners of this game, even though the clutch factor can truly turn the table upside down in a lot of cases, especially if the opponent isn't playing the matchup well enough ( See: Void's 3-0 loss vs Elegant )
I still strongly believe Luigi's potential has yet to be truly seen in High to Top level play: This character has so much to offer as a counterpick character: His matchups against Mario, Fox & Diddy is something many characters would like to benefit from. Lately, i think i've seen False pull out Luigi in a Florida tournament, which allowed him to beat MVD. That's a good start & wise choice on False's part, that many players need to learn from, as Luigi is indeed one of the best counterpick characters of this game.

 

[NotLiquid]

If there's anything I want to talk about it's seeing how Melee players adapt to this game.

An example would be Wizzrobe, top professional 64/Melee player that happens to main Sheik in Smash 4. He just got 9th at a 184-man regional this weekend before losing to Spark and Rideae. He's already a player known for spreading his fundamentals well across all Smash titles, but he plays a safe and basic playstyle with Sheik that ends up being very rewarding.

I think it was Hungrybox who once hypothesized that the reason a lot of Melee players, or at least himself, have trouble adapting to Smash 4 despite earnest efforts is that for people that are so ingrained in learning about Melee at a top level, it doesn't feel as rewarding to move to a playstyle that has a larger focus on reads over tech. Then again he remains a devout Jigglypuff main even in this game, so,

Has the general opinion on risen at all in the eyes of anyone participating in this thread?

I've always felt that Luigi was somewhat underestimated in the tier meta (though I suppose you could say this about any favorite mid-tier of the day), but with several shortcomings alongside Mario's rise to dominance I'm more curious about who Luigi can serve as a complimentary pocket/tertiary in dealing with certain matchups. I don't think he has it in him to be a solo but he's still a character that makes it hard to ignore several matchups being quite volatile in some really unprecedented ways.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think in a meta where we see a lot of Luigi has no real use, but at the moment character choices like are in the top 5 most used at most levels of play so he definitely still has use.
Since picking up the character myself for the 5th time I'm astounded by how many kill/punish options he has.
Cyclone gimps, having the best data to damage ratio in the game, a top 2 boxing game, saying "nah" to combos that aren't frame tight, etc. He does have a horrendous time with characters that can constantly keep him away for the entire game, of course, but most US players focus on actually fighting you even though they'd be better suited camping in the MU.
Maybe he's a solid pick not only because his matchups are good, but because his style of play is extremely effective against the average player in the states.
(not solo viable tho)

 

[ARISTOS]

I think in a meta where we see a lot of Luigi has no real use, but at the moment character choices like are in the top 5 most used at most levels of play so he definitely still has use.
Since picking up the character myself for the 5th time I'm astounded by how many kill/punish options he has.
Cyclone gimps, having the best data to damage ratio in the game, a top 2 boxing game, saying "nah" to combos that aren't frame tight, etc. He does have a horrendous time with characters that can constantly keep him away for the entire game, of course, but most US players focus on actually fighting you even though they'd be better suited camping in the MU.
Maybe he's a solid pick not only because his matchups are good, but because his style of play is extremely effective against the average player in the states.
(not solo viable tho)

He's a great pocket character at mid-level play (super nebulous but woo) because his gameplan is pretty simple to pull off and is devastating when your neutral isn't solid enough to play the kind of neutral necessary to keep him at bay.

As you go on up he loses a bit of effectiveness but I think remains decent against the characters you described above (though I think a patient Mario probably beats on Luigi). Depending on which characters become more popular as CPs he might go up or down. CP Cloud and Mewtwo are common enough that it might really only work as a one game switch- that might be all you need though.

 

[Deleted member]

Has the general opinion on risen at all in the eyes of anyone participating in this thread?

After Elegant's recent performances, yeah I'd say so. People have taken the words out of my mouth above me in regards to what I have to say about Luigi, but despite his bad matchups the character can clearly still get work done at high levels of play. Doing well against the likes of Mario, Diddy and Fox is a pretty big boon indeed.

Although, Ally v Elegant at Abadango Saga made it seem like he could have trouble against a really defensive/passive-aggressive Mario. Then again it's probably just the differentials in player skill.

 

[Yikarur]

I think Luigi is a good mid tier. But I will always view him as a character with the tendency to get worse rather than better. His weaknesses are major and very exploitable.

 

[Laken64]

If stepdashing weren't so dammed difficult and finicky and its utility was more universal, we'd likely be seeing more of it.

As it stands now, it's more of a "nice to have" thing that no one has really developed.

Just me putting out some thought on this:
For those who don't know, here is a short part of a tier list of characters with the best step dash distance:
1
2-3
4-6
So right of the bat we have 4 of the upper echelon of the cast who are commonly seen in tourney who have an amazing step dash which can open a whole new plethora of options in their meta as well as eliminating long time weaknesses of some characters such as ,and.
would have more options and mixups, further improving their neutral (Yes I've heard having"bad neutral" is a meme)
/ One thing the Mario bros struggle in is getting past characters with solid disjoints (,, most notable) this effects more as his poor traction adds extra KB on his shield making so moves that shouldn't be safe safe and disjoints or anything + on shield makes unable to punish at all. Step dash gives them the burst mobility to get in and punish easier. Just the idea of / with burst mobility is scary alone but IMAGINE if Elegant or Ally put this in their gameplay, not to mention Leo with .

And there are and who are already top tiers in their own right would just grow even more. And like FeelMeUp said VoiD is putting it into good use.

Not too sure on though, could maybe help him rise if he had a dedicated player helping him out only one I know is Ryo.

Link to step dash tier list: https://smashboards.com/threads/work-in-progress-step-dash-distance-rankings.440416/

I think in a meta where we see a lot of Luigi has no real use, but at the moment character choices like are in the top 5 most used at most levels of play so he definitely still has use.
Since picking up the character myself for the 5th time I'm astounded by how many kill/punish options he has.
Cyclone gimps, having the best data to damage ratio in the game, a top 2 boxing game, saying "nah" to combos that aren't frame tight, etc. He does have a horrendous time with characters that can constantly keep him away for the entire game, of course, but most US players focus on actually fighting you even though they'd be better suited camping in the MU.
Maybe he's a solid pick not only because his matchups are good, but because his style of play is extremely effective against the average player in the states.
(not solo viable tho)

I feel like step dash in 's meta could push him up and maybe we'll see more's if they learn this tech, tho even then I'm not sure if he can be solo viable, maybe, maybe not (leaning towards latter).

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Abadango's matchup chart.

Interestingly, he believes Mewtwo doesn't have a significant advantage over any characters. That's something I can agree on, actually. I don't think he loses to Cloud but that's just me.

Hey look, Ike's being under rated by a Japanese player again

 

[Deleted member]

Hey look, Ike's being under rated by a Japanese player again

I mean, I can't blame him. Aba had little trouble dealing with Ryo's Ike and the character is extremely rare in Japan.