Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

Just me putting out some thought on this:
For those who don't know, here is a short part of a tier list of characters with the best step dash distance:
1
2-3
4-6
So right of the bat we have 4 of the upper echelon of the cast who are commonly seen in tourney who have an amazing step dash which can open a whole new plethora of options in their meta as well as eliminating long time weaknesses of some characters such as ,and.
would have more options and mixups, further improving their neutral (Yes I've heard having"bad neutral" is a meme)
/ One thing the Mario bros struggle in is getting past characters with solid disjoints (,, most notable) this effects more as his poor traction adds extra KB on his shield making so moves that shouldn't be safe safe and disjoints or anything + on shield makes unable to punish at all. Step dash gives them the burst mobility to get in and punish easier. Just the idea of / with burst mobility is scary alone but IMAGINE if Elegant or Ally put this in their gameplay, not to mention Leo with .

And there are and who are already top tiers in their own right would just grow even more. And like FeelMeUp said VoiD is putting it into good use.

Not too sure on though, could maybe help him rise if he had a dedicated player helping him out only one I know is Ryo.

Link to step dash tier list: https://smashboards.com/threads/work-in-progress-step-dash-distance-rankings.440416/

I feel like step dash in 's meta could push him up and maybe we'll see more's if they learn this tech, tho even then I'm not sure if he can be solo viable, maybe, maybe not (leaning towards latter).

Ahem, if you would please read the list under it, which has the top 11 characters who can do it, pixel-length wise, you would need to talk about Fox, the Pits and other characters. The top one only calculates the Suzaku distance and isn't perfectly accurate. The bottom represents the highest amount possible thus far, in pixels, but no one further has been able to help complete either list. Roy isn't anywhere to be seen on the second tier list, indicating that he has not been completely tested or he doesn't have a top ten, let alone top five, Step Dash.

Irregardless, in my opinion, with more burst mobility would easily scare the living hell out of people. We already have Bombslide, but add on with Step Dash and you've got someone who can cover nearly half the stage in an instant, if performed right. Step Dash Bombslide would be a huge improvement in his mobility to the point where I can see rising if he can pull it off perfectly.

I feel with Step Dash, metas would evolve to something better now than today. However, it would have to require a lot of muscle memory and training just to ensure you get the perfect Step Dash, as it is (quite literally) frame specific.

 

[Illuminose]

Speaking of step dash, I have seen both 9B and ikep use step dash on numerous occassions with Bayonetta's down tilt, to good results. It's not only a theoretical thing -- step dashing can definitely be consistently possible.

 

[Nobie]

Re: Mewtwo Matchup Chart

No matter how much people disagree with exact placings on Abadango's list, the lack of severe advantages is I think an inherent property of how Mewtwo works. Mewtwo has an answer for almost every situation, but any mistakes on the Mewtwo's part can be severely punished.

The most extreme example of this is vs. Lucario, a matchup which is generally seen as somewhere between even and in favor of Mewtwo. Lucario's worse neutral, less range, and piddling damage at lower percents means Lucario is always in a rough spot, but Aura matters so, so much given how light Mewtwo is. If the Lucario is even a little better in the neutral than the Mewtwo, then the danger the Mewtwo is in becomes so much more severe than if, say, Luigi fights Mario. Even the best matchups for Mewtwo require an awareness that things can go sour right-quick.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm pretty amazed people would think that Lucario:Mewtwo is unwinnable.

How is the notion of unwinnable even exist when you have something like aura?

 

[Megamang]

I found my success vs Lucario to increase dramatically when I committed to abusing his poor low damage options to take no damage, or as little as possible, early on.

Then, work on getting ledge guarding/gimp options rolling, not chip damage. Also, if you get the first kill, safe chip damage and wasting time are of utmost importance.

If you are both last stock low %, dont be afraid to take a reasonable lead then start playing super lame.

Its much easier to time out Lucario at 20% vs your 0% than 120% vs your 100%.

But I suck at and hate that MU so idk.


---

I always figured Ike would do well vs m2 with a solid grab confirm game, strong kill options in neutral, and the '2 hit confirm' style of racking damage. And being heavy. And his fair is actually bigger, i think.

But being a swordie vs mewtwo is... ugh. just miserable. You want to play this intricate neutral of spacing each sword option, poking at eachother with different swings for their exact right purpose, speed vs range vs reward...

But lolno. Shadow ball and dtilt laugh at most swordies. Unless you play your cards perfectly, youll take a dtilt or fair or nair confirm for 60 damage then spend the game trying to approach through an absolutely ridiculously powerful projectile. Not fun for anyone.

Plus his speed and airdodge makes it easy to abuse ike offstage IME.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The thought of Link step dashing out of a bomb slide makes me want to cry, the thought of killing lightweight fastfallers at 60 from halfway across the stage with bomb > fsmash is enough to make anyone fear him

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike vs M2 is super volatile. Both can start killing each other extremely quickly (quick damage wracking + projectiles vs loads of damage and kill confirms on a light target). Both sides should be using a lot of PPs to try to basically win the spacing game by a matter of pixels (particularly with both of their Dtilts), both trying to space with their Fairs but in different ways. Both get punished hard for a single mistake, easily 1/3 or 1/2 of their stock.

Don't think anyone has a true advantage. If I had to give one at gun point I'd say Mewtwo because of Shadow Ball. But even then, you can almost throw Eruption out there as a counter point when looking at Mewtwo's sometimes wonky teleport recovery. Its just a very weird even match up.

 

[Radical Larry]

The thought of Link step dashing out of a bomb slide makes me want to cry, the thought of killing lightweight fastfallers at 60 from halfway across the stage with bomb > fsmash is enough to make anyone fear him

Well I'm not exactly sure at which order you could use it, but I theorize that Step Dash > Bombslide would probably be the more efficient order for acting out the distance, whereas Bombslide > Step Dash would be more efficient for acting out an attack faster. All of my thoughts on this are pure speculation, and would need a lot of testing in order to see which works best and to see just how this truly works out in matches. Only then would it be really conclusive.

But yes, the thought of Link performing a DACUS-like mobility burst is extremely scary. That's why I don't want to immediately discredit the usage of Step Dashes until further testing and labbing can give us an answer of how this could work out with Bombslide. But as a defensive burst, so Link can retreat, Link could possibly use a combination of both just to get away from faster opponents.

This is just speculation and theory, but the possibilities could simply be limitless, no?

 

[Aaron1997]

Shogun's Match-up Chart for Fox. This one is interesting to say the least

 

[Nathan Richardson]

As for the mewtwo MU chart, again this is me being a zard lover so bear with me, I've played a few matched on FD against a really good mewtwo player and here's what I found.

1. Zard is combo food of course but if mewtwo makes a mistake zard swats him away no sweat.
2. Mewtwo can easily spam mini-shadow balls and grabs to keep zard away but if mewtwo tries to rush him (and that's a big IF) zard has several tools in his disposal including flamethrower, rock smash, all of zard's tilts, and his smashes. Basically mewtwo has to camp zard but this can backfire spectacularly if zard gets a good read.
3. M2's light weight means one well placed smash from zard and you lose a stock, it also means playing aggressively with M2 is a VERY bad idea. Zard adores it when M2 comes in close because that's where zard is strongest (specifically short to mid-range).
4. Mewtwo has a nasty range advantage and can easily knock zard out of shield with confusion for a bread and butter fsmash combo, but zard can counter with fair too. Essentially it becomes a reading game where M2 and zard try to camp, read and counter each others mistakes. In my fights it was 50/50 but I got one more win in and we each two-stocked each other (him by camping and smash spamming and me gimping him with my dair). Thoughts? Arguments?

 

[Bowserboy3]

I remember seeing a post a few back that said along the lines of "Most MU charts posted here make characters look like top 10 characters" (I can't be bothered to go back and find it, i'm lazy).

OK then, what about this one?

This is quite an interesting take on a MU chart; rather than the opinion of a true Ness main, it uses the opinions of like, every other player of every other character. The charts used are here - https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/598xp2/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v3/, and the original post is here - https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/59f3ff/ness_mu_chart_based_on_notable_player_mu_chart/.

This isn't exactly what I'd call a top 10 MU spread, or at least, not the kind of MU spread of a character supposedly high tier.

 

[Locke 06]

Usually I'm not one to just post random stuff.

But people complain about Bayo's run up>up-B>run away being too safe, but after watching Brawl MK shuttle loop and mach tornado get punished reliably it makes me think people aren't testing their options.

Bayo grounded up-B on MegaMan hits his shield twice (f4 and f8 of her 28f commitment) and can be punished with FH rising upair (f15 OoS) with good execution (FH fAir gives an extra bit of leeway). Many other characters have quick(er) up airs that could punish this reliably, but it's not anything I've seen develop.

I haven't watched Ally v Salem, but from what I've read on here Salem just platform camped and tried to catch Ally with aerial witch twists on the top of his shield, which would convert to 30% or so if it hit. This seems like obvious counterplay to develop in regions with top Bayos (not pnw) or nationals but I haven't seen it. Even in Bayo dittos, granted I guess I haven't seen any good Bayo dittos, punishing witch twist on shield with witch twist seems like a no-brainer.


Edit: 98% sure Mario FH up air OoS punishes witch twist before she can f1 airdodge based on actually trying it in training mode. You know... Testing options.

 

[ARGHETH]

I remember seeing a post a few back that said along the lines of "Most MU charts posted here make characters look like top 10 characters" (I can't be bothered to go back and find it, i'm lazy).

OK then, what about this one?

This is quite an interesting take on a MU chart; rather than the opinion of a true Ness main, it uses the opinions of like, every other player of every other character. The charts used are here - https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/598xp2/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v3/, and the original post is here - https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/59f3ff/ness_mu_chart_based_on_notable_player_mu_chart/.

This isn't exactly what I'd call a top 10 MU spread...

...Pretty sure Robin mains don't think we beat Ness. The most optimistic chart (Raziek/Dath's old one) puts it as even, and Dath's most recent chart says we lose 45-55.
EDIT: Never mind, just saw the link. Does Skorpio even have any Ness experience? Dath or Raziek apparently fought Nakat or Shaky at one point or other.

 

[Bowserboy3]

...Pretty sure Robin mains don't think we beat Ness. The most optimistic chart (Raziek/Dath's old one) puts it as even, and Dath's most recent chart says we lose 45-55.

Meh, don't shoot the messenger, but I can definitely see your point of view. I play a bit of Robin as a pocket/fun character, and I don't particularly enjoy that MU.

 

[DunnoBro]

Usually I'm not one to just post random stuff.

But people complain about Bayo's run up>up-B>run away being too safe, but after watching Brawl MK shuttle loop and mach tornado get punished reliably it makes me think people aren't testing their options.

Bayo grounded up-B on MegaMan hits his shield twice (f4 and f8 of her 28f commitment) and can be punished with FH rising upair (f15 OoS) with good execution (FH fAir gives an extra bit of leeway). Many other characters have quick(er) up airs that could punish this reliably, but it's not anything I've seen develop.

I haven't watched Ally v Salem, but from what I've read on here Salem just platform camped and tried to catch Ally with aerial witch twists on the top of his shield, which would convert to 30% or so if it hit. This seems like obvious counterplay to develop in regions with top Bayos (not pnw) or nationals but I haven't seen it. Even in Bayo dittos, granted I guess I haven't seen any good Bayo dittos, punishing witch twist on shield with witch twist seems like a no-brainer.

Mario's uair doesn't have enough rising range to pure punish it in most situations. They can witch time or just escape for free. Essentially, if you don't have a disjointed uair, you can't punish WT platform camping.

Mario will never kill off these punishes anyway, while bayo can plus just generate huge damage. So even with poor spacing, bayo always retains the risk/reward advantage.

If you can't punish WT on reaction, that's pretty much it. I can't see counterplay evolving more than what is already is.

 

[ARGHETH]

I remember seeing a post a few back that said along the lines of "Most MU charts posted here make characters look like top 10 characters" (I can't be bothered to go back and find it, i'm lazy).

OK then, what about this one?

This is quite an interesting take on a MU chart; rather than the opinion of a true Ness main, it uses the opinions of like, every other player of every other character. The charts used are here - https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/598xp2/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v3/, and the original post is here - https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/59f3ff/ness_mu_chart_based_on_notable_player_mu_chart/.

This isn't exactly what I'd call a top 10 MU spread, or at least, not the kind of MU spread of a character supposedly high tier.

I tried it for Robin. Results...went about as expected.

No, I didn't switch Marth and Lucina. And yes, according to everyone else Robin only wins 5 MUs.
Still one MU better than the last one, though.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I tried it for Robin. Results...went about as expected.

No, I didn't switch Marth and Lucina. And yes, according to everyone else Robin only wins 5 MUs.
Still one MU better than the last one, though.

Interesting...

I think Robin certainly beats more than 5 characters, and certainly more than just low/bottom tiers (sans DK) if you ask me.

In regards to Marth and Lucina, I'd personally have them both in the 45:55 range. In reality, when Marth is playing at tipper range, it becomes too risky for Robin to do a lot of his options, as none of his moves outrange Marth's, and it becomes too risky to throw a projectile out. It's not a huge difference in this MU for both Marth and Lucina though, because Robin still wins the long range game against them both, and it can become annoying trying to safely get in.

I'd have personally thought Robin has enough tools to go at least even, or even beat a fair few more characters. What's the Peach MU like? I'd have thought Robin could at the very least go even in that MU.

 

[Nah]

whose charts were you using for that?

I'm by no means a Robin optimist but like that's even worse than how I have it

MegaMan is also not even lol we lose that one

 

[Deleted member]

Robin losing to Shulk.. er, no?

Matchup is even or slightly in Robin's favor, though it's definitely not free for Robin like Dath and the Robin Discord seem to believe.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I noticed that wasn't put into any of the rankings. From what I've experienced, this is either slightly in Robin's favor or even. Kirby getting the Thunder abilities adds plenty of spacing and damage racking abilities to help Kirby in neutral, but Robin has plenty of disjointed hitboxes, something Kirby struggles heavily with. Not to mention, Levin Sword is pretty irritating for Kirby.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

View attachment 119788

Shogun's Match-up Chart for Fox. This one is interesting to say the least

Other than having Ness as a disadvantaged matchup nothing stands out as unusual. Most Fox matchup charts look pretty similar to his. And the solid disadvantage against Ness is easily explained via personal experience versus NAKAT.

 

[Ninety]

I tried it for Robin. Results...went about as expected.

No, I didn't switch Marth and Lucina. And yes, according to everyone else Robin only wins 5 MUs.
Still one MU better than the last one, though.

Guess we're still on the receiving end of that "I don't actually know anything about this character but I think they're 'low tier' so I'm gonna put them down as a win for my main on pure one-sided theorycrafting" stage of the meta, huh.

 

[Krysco]

Comparing to Brawl, going from the bottom of the tier list to the top, the first character to have 5+ positive mus is who's sitting as the 7th worst character in that game. Granted, Sm4sh has 20~ more characters but that's just to give an idea of what winning only 5 mus meant in that game.

On the other hand, something I see a lot of is whenever an mu chart is posted for a high or top tier, people are often quick to point out 'oh they only lose a low amount of mus? Sounds like a top 10 character!' and for mid and low tier characters 'oh they only win a low amount of mus? Sounds like a bottom 10 character!'. While the notion of just putting an unfamiliar or low tier character as a winning mu for ones own character is plausible, especially in this game with 57 different mus for every individual character, it could also just be a sign of how the game is balanced. It's quite well known that the likes of are a ways above the rest of the cast, the lower end could be more evenly balanced. Robin could very well only win 5 mus and could still be a mid tier character. Looking at that particular mu spread, I feel there would need to be more even mus for that to be the case but it is still possible. (a lot of those 45:55 mus could be moved to even...then again I much prefer the +/- format since there is a clear distinction between a +/-1 and a +/-2 as opposed to the minuscule difference of 45:55 and 40:60)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Guess we're still on the receiving end of that "I don't actually know anything about this character but I think they're 'low tier' so I'm gonna put them down as a win for my main on pure one-sided theorycrafting" stage of the meta, huh.

I'm sure there's plenty of characters that are off worse than that though. You think such a chart for Link or Samus would have anything but losing matchups? I have my doubts about it.

 

[Poisonous]

Tried it for Wario, can't say I was too surprised

 

[TDK]

I'm sure there's plenty of characters that are off worse than that though. You think such a chart for Link or Samus would have anything but losing matchups? I have my doubts about it.

Actually, the Bayonetta MU thread seems to be of the opinion that Bayonetta loses to Link.

 

[Rizen]

Tried it for Wario, can't say I was too surprised

Why does supposedly beat and lose to so hard?

Actually, the Bayonetta MU thread seems to be of the opinion that Bayonetta loses to Link.

Looking at both top and players' MU charts, they don't share that view.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/54p1hj/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v2/

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I'm pretty amazed people would think that Lucario:Mewtwo is unwinnable.

How is the notion of unwinnable even exist when you have something like aura?

Lucario's neutral has a heavy emphasis on Aura Sphere though, which Mewtwo can reflect. Not to mention Mewtwo being able to kill extremely consistently with a throw as well as that crazy amazing fair. Tbh, I don't see how to could be close to even. It's not unwinnable for sure, I think Pac v Mac is the closest thing to an unwinnable match up in this game, but I'm struggling to see a Mewtwo that refuses to approach unless he has to in order to just chuck Lucario into the sky would really struggle with Lucario.

Tried it for Wario, can't say I was too surprised

LOL @ Mac losing to Wario -3 according to this. That's Pac Man territory, Wario is nowhere close to that level of bad.

 

[Poisonous]

Why does supposedly beat and lose to so hard?


Looking at both top and players' MU charts, they don't share that view.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/54p1hj/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v2/

8Bitman was the ROB who said the mu is +3 for ROB (Mister Eric and RaffiX think it is even iirc), he regularly beats 3 very good Warios from Florida (Snorley, Lord Frieza, and BlackGuyGamer) and beat Reflex 2-1 at TBH6. I'm not too sure on his reasoning on the mu, but it's likely a combination of ROBs keep-out game and 50/50 off a grab as well as living for a while as Wario can sometimes struggle to close out stocks.

For Mac, Alphicans and Naoto think the mu is -3 for Mac due to 'air camping'. Sol thinks the mu is even iirc. Apparently, Naoto is very bad at the Wario mu since it seems a few Warios in the Wario discord have beaten him.

I didn't look too much into their reasoning since the only things linked were the charts themselves, I just compiled the results based on that thread of all the other mu charts and what they thought of the mu.

 

[TDK]

Why does supposedly beat and lose to so hard?


Looking at both top and players' MU charts, they don't share that view.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/54p1hj/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v2/

I guess it got worse, huh...

Links generally agree that we beat Villager (something I agree on), while Villagers have it from even/slight loss to an equally good matchup as Ganon... something that seems a little suspect.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tried it for Wario, can't say I was too surprised

Yeah those numbers are all sorts of wrong, not that I'm surprised about it.

Actually, the Bayonetta MU thread seems to be of the opinion that Bayonetta loses to Link.

SWF Character boards are not a valid source for information tbh.

 

[|RK|]

Lucario's neutral has a heavy emphasis on Aura Sphere though, which Mewtwo can reflect. Not to mention Mewtwo being able to kill extremely consistently with a throw as well as that crazy amazing fair. Tbh, I don't see how to could be close to even. It's not unwinnable for sure, I think Pac v Mac is the closest thing to an unwinnable match up in this game, but I'm struggling to see a Mewtwo that refuses to approach unless he has to in order to just chuck Lucario into the sky would really struggle with Lucario.

LOL @ Mac losing to Wario -3 according to this. That's Pac Man territory, Wario is nowhere close to that level of bad.

I'm not as informed about Lucario as others might be, but my understanding is that aura sphere isn't a *huge* part of Lucario's neutral. I've been told that ASC should be used sparingly in neutral, and the sphere itself likely even more rarely. It adds to Lucario's mobility and has a variety of uses for sure... but it's not something that should be thrown out frequently in neutral. From my understanding, it's somewhere between Mewtwo nair and Kirby dair - yes, you can convert off of it quite well, but you should not spam it so much in neutral.

Also, Lucario's ground movement is pretty good. Recently fell in love with his dash dance.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I made one of those for Corrin.

This does make Corrin seem more like high tier than high-mid, in my opinion. Some things worth noting:

Mii Brawler is with customs on and based on 1 person. Samus is also based on 1 person and is probably even at best (I think Corrin has the advantage). The 1 Pit player actually put Pit at 30-70, but I looked at what the Corrin players thought and adjusted it to 60-40 (many of them actually put Pit at a 45-55 disadvantage). Still, Corrin's MU chart doesn't look bad, even when looking from the perspective of other MU charts.

 

[Piipp]

Blue is rising on his PR whereas I feel mekos is still struggling a little bit to come out of the woodworks in this game. He did get 7th at a large regional but his result was overshadowed by Xanos' Lucas who got 5th. PK Blueberry has some decent set wins I'm pretty sure ( I keep getting confused between his wins and Jebb's, didn't one of them beat @Seagull Joe ? PK Blueberry definitely went very close with Dabuz and forced a switch to Oli though), but you might be right tbh.

Well the reason I ask is because PK Blueberry is from my region and even I haven't heard much about him since WTFox. I was just curious as to what makes him much more relevant than someone like Mekos

 

[Nu~]

I made one of those for Corrin.

View attachment 119801

This does make Corrin seem more like high tier than high-mid, in my opinion. Some things worth noting:

Mii Brawler is with customs on and based on 1 person. Samus is also based on 1 person and is probably even at best (I think Corrin has the advantage). The 1 Pit player actually put Pit at 30-70, but I looked at what the Corrin players thought and adjusted it to 60-40 (many of them actually put Pit at a 45-55 disadvantage). Still, Corrin's MU chart doesn't look bad, even when looking from the perspective of other MU charts.

The first matchup chart I've seen that doesn't just slap pit into "even" based off of nothing but shallow assumption.

But I'm still curious, why does pit lose so badly?
Is it because his spacing game against other sword characters is actually quite bad?


Edit:

I mean come on now...with aerial hitboxes like this you're better off just walking and jabbing.

Spoiler: FAIR

Spoiler: NAIR

 

[Piipp]

I tried it for Robin. Results...went about as expected.

No, I didn't switch Marth and Lucina. And yes, according to everyone else Robin only wins 5 MUs.
Still one MU better than the last one, though.

Care to explain MegaMan? I've always felt that MegaMan has an advantage.

 

[Y2Kay]

Care to explain MegaMan? I've always felt that MegaMan has an advantage.

that's just a compilation of how non Robin players feel about the Robin match up, not necessarily his.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The first matchup chart I've seen that doesn't just slap pit into "even" based off of nothing but shallow assumption.

But I'm still curious, why does pit lose so badly?
Is it because his spacing game against other sword characters is actually quite bad?

I should clarify: It's not my MU chart. It's a MU chart based on what others think of Corrin. In Pit's case, the one Pit MU chart had the matchup at 30-70 for some reason, and I decided to look at what the Corrin top players thought, and they had Pit at 55-45, so I put him at 60-40. As for why the Pit main put Pit at 30-70 in the first place I have no idea.

 

[Piipp]

that's just a compilation of how non Robin players feel about the Robin match up, not necessarily his.

Well I know that but I'd assume he'd know and could give some kind of clarity.

 

[chaos11011]

Most people's match up charts don't understand the concept of an even match up. People throw out minus and pluses for free. Especially for low tiers. It's sad.