Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

I made one of those for Corrin.

That's an optimistic MU chart if I've ever seen one. I'd like to know who those Corrin players are, that think they're even with Sonic and advantaged against Rosalina, Toon Link, Villager and Pikachu. Those aren't match-ups you win just like that, especially a character who has yet to prove her worth.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Cosmos has won pretty much every set he has had with ESAM, including this past weekend in OKC where he went 3-1 both sets.

If anything else, Corrin has a track record on Pikachu,

 

[teddystalin]

I'd like to know who those Corrin players are, that think they're even with Sonic and advantaged against Rosalina, Toon Link, Villager and Pikachu.

Again, this is one of the charts based on the opinions of non-Corrin top players.

So the ones who think they're even against Sonic are: KEN, Komo, Seagull, Manny, and Phoenix.

The ones who think they're advantaged against Rosa are Dabuz, Kirihara, falln, Xaltis, and Rayquaza.

Villager: MJG, Aarvark, Kept, Player-1

Etc, etc.

 

[Frihetsanka]

That's an optimistic MU chart if I've ever seen one. I'd like to know who those Corrin players are, that think they're even with Sonic and advantaged against Rosalina, Toon Link, Villager and Pikachu. Those aren't match-ups you win just like that, especially a character who has yet to prove her worth.

It's not Corrin players thinking they're even with Sonic, it's Sonic players thinking Sonic - Corrin is even. MU charts can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/54p1hj/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v2/

For Sonic: KEN, MMG Phoenix, komorikiri, Seagull Joe, and Static Manny think it's 50-50. Wrath and 6WX Wes think it's 55-45 (slight advantage for Sonic).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Whoops, my bad >_<

Edit: Actually this has me even more confused about these numbers but that's neither here nor there right now.

 

[FullMoon]

It might be just me but I think Corrin might beat Greninja.

It could be that I just suck at the MU and have little experience with it but Corrin is one of the few characters in this game that I always dread facing against.

 

[|RK|]

That's an optimistic MU chart if I've ever seen one. I'd like to know who those Corrin players are, that think they're even with Sonic and advantaged against Rosalina, Toon Link, Villager and Pikachu. Those aren't match-ups you win just like that, especially a character who has yet to prove her worth.

I've heard Sonic players say the Corrin MU is even before - what pushes it into Sonic's favor, in your opinion?

 

[Megamang]

I find corrin to be very 'stage volatile'.

Ledge near the blastzone? You can die to the wrong fair confirm. FD? she has to hit a bair, pin, smash, or a late uthrow.

But Mega has to worry about early death way more than platform camping. stuff like extremely safe pins and dair hitting through platforms to confirm to run-off-pin isnt so bad when you just corner him with Uair. this is my experience vs Anonymous Moniker, but we have only played once in bracket and he doesnt know the MU at all, evidenced by trying to CP me to Duck Hunt to time me out LOL.

 

[TDK]

Sure, I'll bite here.

This is about as accurate as a Stormtrooper. Link beats more than 4 characters and certainly doesn't have that many 6-4s. Also doesn't lose to Zelda (Ven also thinks Mario loses to Zelda so take from that what you will), Falco, Villager, Bowser Jr, Game & Watch, or Palutena. Going even with Mewtwo according the the Mewtwos. We really need to get T stateside and Scizor needs to travel more so more top players can see a top Link for themselves.

For comparison, here's T's MU chart:

Spoiler

And lastly, while I work on my own Link MU chart, I found a tier list made by PK Blueberry from a month or so ago:

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hate to argue here but Zard does NOT lose to Link the only projectile Link can use without it getting cancelled out by flamethrower are his bombs, plus his range is much shorter than charizard's. I'd say zard is about even with Link or even 55/45 Zard's favor.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've heard Sonic players say the Corrin MU is even before - what pushes it into Sonic's favor, in your opinion?

I don't know, I'm just naturally sceptical when a mid-tier supposedly goes even with a top tier, especially when there's neither any specific reasons nor any significant results to back up such claims. Like, if I randomly told you that Lucas goes even with Sheik would you just believe me or would you question it?

 

[TDK]

Hate to argue here but Zard does NOT lose to Link the only projectile Link can use without it getting cancelled out by flamethrower are his bombs, plus his range is much shorter than charizard's. I'd say zard is about even with Link or even 55/45 Zard's favor.

You reasoning is extremely flawed here. Link has much more than just projectiles, and bomb is the one that Zard would like to cancel out the most, considering he can abuse Zard's (nonexsistant) landing options really easily after popping him up in the air. Also, Link's sword doesn't have a hurtbox so it clanks or beats most of Zard's attacks (Clanks with the invincible ones and beats the regular ones). Also Link lives for a while (especially if you DI Zard's already super easy to DI Up Throw) and has several kill confirms that kill Zard earlier than Zard's up throw will. Be smart and abuse Zard's horrible landing options and the matchup is yours. I wouldn't say it's +2 for Link but there's no way it's even.

 

[JayE]

Link does really well against heavies like DK and Dedede, at least in my experience, I'm comfortable in that matchup

 

[|RK|]

I don't know, I'm just naturally sceptical when a mid-tier supposedly goes even with a top tier, especially when there's neither any specific reasons nor any significant results to back up such claims. Like, if I randomly told you that Lucas goes even with Sheik would you just believe me or would you question it?

That's fair - I suppose I'm not solid on Corrin's tier placing yet (heard anything from mid tier to top tier, depending on the player). That and I'm not really surprised when a mid-tier supposedly goes even with a top tier - since many Fox and ZSS mains believe they go even with a low tier.

But I digress - I would question it for sure.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't know, I'm just naturally sceptical when a mid-tier[...]

4BR voted Corrin in high tier. A lot of people do think Corrin is high tier, and that MU chart looks pretty good, and the results* haven't been too bad (21st/22nd recently).

*Of course, you can't go 100% by those results, or else Cloud would be #1, which he clearly isn't, and Captain Falcon would be #11, which is also kind of ludicrous. So it's possible that Corrin is high-mid rather than high.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I don't know, I'm just naturally sceptical when a mid-tier supposedly goes even with a top tier, especially when there's neither any specific reasons nor any significant results to back up such claims. Like, if I randomly told you that Lucas goes even with Sheik would you just believe me or would you question it?

If I were to say Ike goes even with or beats Mewtwo, Mario, Sonic, Cloud, and Rosa would you be skeptical?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

You reasoning is extremely flawed here. Link has much more than just projectiles, and bomb is the one that Zard would like to cancel out the most, considering he can abuse Zard's (nonexsistant) landing options really easily after popping him up in the air. Also, Link's sword doesn't have a hurtbox so it clanks or beats most of Zard's attacks (Clanks with the invincible ones and beats the regular ones). Also Link lives for a while (especially if you DI Zard's already super easy to DI Up Throw) and has several kill confirms that kill Zard earlier than Zard's up throw will. Be smart and abuse Zard's horrible landing options and the matchup is yours. I wouldn't say it's +2 for Link but there's no way it's even.

You talk as if charizard's up throw is his only kill confirm, however all of his smashes get kills extremely easy. I'm not going to deny that charizard's only options on landing are neutral air, flamethrower and rock smash but that doesn't make his landing options quote on quote 'nonexistent'. He also benefits from rage a lot earlier. I'm just going to back out now though, I only main zard constantly and i've played a bunch of link players but I wouldn't call them 'top players' so I can only make a comparison from charizard's side, since hardly anyone plays him seriously on the high-end level there's noone who can add their own two cents who knows both characters extremely well.

 

[Y2Kay]

It might be just me but I think Corrin might beat Greninja.

It could be that I just suck at the MU and have little experience with it but Corrin is one of the few characters in this game that I always dread facing against.

I think it's even but I still dread fighting him/her still.

It's another match up where good movement is important. Also Jab is really good too when she gets too close.

 

[ARGHETH]

whose charts were you using for that?

I'm by no means a Robin optimist but like that's even worse than how I have it

MegaMan is also not even lol we lose that one

Care to explain MegaMan? I've always felt that MegaMan has an advantage.

Kameme put it as even, while Scatt's 1.1.5 list put it as 45-55. I rounded up.

Robin losing to Shulk.. er, no?

Matchup is even or slightly in Robin's favor, though it's definitely not free for Robin like Dath and the Robin Discord seem to believe.

Nicko thought it was "easy" (I interpreted it as 40:60), while Trememdo Dude thought it was "even (but frustrating)". That averages to ~47-53, so I rounded down because Tremendo Dude thought of it as close to even anyways.

Guess we're still on the receiving end of that "I don't actually know anything about this character but I think they're 'low tier' so I'm gonna put them down as a win for my main on pure one-sided theorycrafting" stage of the meta, huh.

Basically.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If I were to say Ike goes even with or beats Mewtwo, Mario, Sonic, Cloud, and Rosa would you be skeptical?

[...] when there's neither any specific reasons nor any significant results to back up such claims.

Ike has enough results to back up the claim the he cloud be even with or beat Sonic. I'm sceptical when it comes to the other matchups - especially Rosalina, whom I think I remember Ike having lost against on a number of occasions without any major wins against her.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Well Rosaluma juggles Ike to hell.

Ike can get rid of Luma pretty easily and his huge disjoints can challenge anything that Rosaluma tries to do but if she gets the chance to get in you won't come back down on earth.

 

[Mega-Spider]

As I'm going through these MU charts, I've been noticing that Kirby's being placed as "unknown" or "not enough data to place." This is further proof of Kirby's meta being incredibly stagnant, because he hasn't progressed much from the early-ish days of the meta and patch updates that gave him some great stuff, like his U-Throw kill and F-Throw combo ability. As one of the Kirby spokespeople, and I know we've talked about this a couple of times, but there needs to be serious labbing in order to see what else there is to this character. We've discussed the need for Copy Abilities and crouch, but we need to put them to practice as well. I'm not saying Kirby's some secret high tier character or anything (at best, I think he's either bottom mid or top low), but I can tell you that he's clearly better than what some people think, and especially better than what the cesspool of awfulness that is the Kirby playerbase (sorry, but I really hate that playerbase, and I think it's a reason why Kirby's meta is stagnant).

Hey, it'd be more interesting to see this stuff instead of the same old Cloud routine everyone's used to at this point.

 

[ARGHETH]

As I'm going through these MU charts, I've been noticing that Kirby's being placed as "unknown" or "not enough data to place." This is further proof of Kirby's meta being incredibly stagnant, because he hasn't progressed much from the early-ish days of the meta and patch updates that gave him some great stuff, like his U-Throw kill and F-Throw combo ability. As one of the Kirby spokespeople, and I know we've talked about this a couple of times, but there needs to be serious labbing in order to see what else there is to this character. We've discussed the need for Copy Abilities and crouch, but we need to put them to practice as well. I'm not saying Kirby's some secret high tier character or anything (at best, I think he's either bottom mid or top low), but I can tell you that he's clearly better than what some people think, and especially better than what the cesspool of awfulness that is the Kirby playerbase (sorry, but I really hate that playerbase, and I think it's a reason why Kirby's meta is stagnant).

Hey, it'd be more interesting to see this stuff instead of the same old Cloud routine everyone's used to at this point.

Technically, it's because no Kirby MU chart was in the post...

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't know, I'm just naturally sceptical when a mid-tier supposedly goes even with a top tier, especially when there's neither any specific reasons nor any significant results to back up such claims. Like, if I randomly told you that Lucas goes even with Sheik would you just believe me or would you question it?

vs is really weird. It's outright hard to kill as . juggles and can punish her for a missed pin better than most characters, but the biggest issue is just killing. It's a very patient matchup and if jumps from spindash or is above he gets hit bad.

Every player I've played that's really good (Cosmos, Ryuga, and Dexter) always trades games with me constantly. I played Cosmos on Wi-Fi, but it is still good for data purposes. Don't know what else to say about it. Gimping might sway the matchup towards 's favor in the future, but I don't see it actively done at this time.

 

[Aaron1997]

What I did was instead of just using Non pac's players Charts, I compared Zage's and Ginko's charts to the non pac players. (If I didn't, he would look as bad as Jiggs lol)

 

[TDK]

You talk as if charizard's up throw is his only kill confirm, however all of his smashes get kills extremely easy. I'm not going to deny that charizard's only options on landing are neutral air, flamethrower and rock smash but that doesn't make his landing options quote on quote 'nonexistent'. He also benefits from rage a lot earlier. I'm just going to back out now though, I only main zard constantly and i've played a bunch of link players but I wouldn't call them 'top players' so I can only make a comparison from charizard's side, since hardly anyone plays him seriously on the high-end level there's noone who can add their own two cents who knows both characters extremely well.

So do Link's smashes. And for that matter, Link's up-smash is disgusting. Anti-Airs extremely well and kills very early, disjointed, powerful. Nair is pretty poor in general since it isn't Disjointed and gets beat out by Link's sword, Flamethrower doesn't cover below Zard (Hello, Up Smash) and Rock Smash is decent but laggy. I haven't played against top Zards so this is just my opinion, and unfortunately, T vs Sharpy seems extremely unlikely.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

So do Link's smashes. And for that matter, Link's up-smash is disgusting. Anti-Airs extremely well and kills very early, disjointed, powerful. Nair is pretty poor in general since it isn't Disjointed and gets beat out by Link's sword, Flamethrower doesn't cover below Zard (Hello, Up Smash) and Rock Smash is decent but laggy. I haven't played against top Zards so this is just my opinion, and unfortunately, T vs Sharpy seems extremely unlikely.

So essentially we're running into the same problem, you haven't run into top zard players and I haven't run into top link players, it turns into a game of my opinion versus yours and I really don't want to play THAT game I just want to play smash LOL!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike has enough results to back up the claim the he cloud be even with or beat Sonic. I'm sceptical when it comes to the other matchups - especially Rosalina, whom I think I remember Ike having lost against on a number of occasions without any major wins against her.

As far as I remember Ike has taken sets off of Rosalinas not named Dabuz before. Xatis I thiiiiink was one of them but my memory is fuzzy.

With Mario Ryuga gave Ally a run for his money back when he played Ike. San is pretty comfortable against most Marios as well.

M2s I'm only aware of one set against Aba and well, its Aba. Don't know about other M2s. Cloud I've never heard of an Ike really struggling with by any significant amount.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyluQSUkDvk
While this whole video's pretty cool, at 1:42 there's a clip of Kie's Peach getting a combo and killing Mewtwo at 21 after the Up-B hits.

21%

Oh and did I mention it confirms out of Dair?

 

[Seagull Joe]

As far as I remember Ike has taken sets off of Rosalinas not named Dabuz before. Xatis I thiiiiink was one of them but my memory is fuzzy.

With Mario Ryuga gave Ally a run for his money back when he played Ike. San is pretty comfortable against most Marios as well.

M2s I'm only aware of one set against Aba and well, its Aba. Don't know about other M2s. Cloud I've never heard of an Ike really struggling with by any significant amount.

I wouldn't use Xalt1s as evidence for any specific matchup. That's the worst person you could use to be honest.

 

[Nu~]

I wouldn't use Xalt1s as evidence for any specific matchup. That's the worst person you could use to be honest.

Why exactly?

Skill? play style? Mindset?

 

[DunnoBro]

Why exactly?

Skill? play style? Mindset?

All of the above. Plays every MU about the same and is put on tilt easily. Just a very vocal mid-level player, and I mean that in the least disrespectful way I could word it.

 

[Das Koopa]

Frostbite 5v5 crews

Team USA:
ZeRo
Dabuz
Nairo
Salem
ANTI

Team Japan:
Komorikiri
Kamemushi
Abadango
Shuton
T

They said they're trying to make it 10v10. Sure hope so cuz' otherwise this looks like an impending bodybag lol

 

[Illuminose]

Frostbite 5v5 crews

Team USA:
ZeRo
Dabuz
Nairo
Salem
ANTI

Team Japan:
Komorikiri
Kamemushi
Abadango
Shuton
T

They said they're trying to make it 10v10. Sure hope so cuz' otherwise this looks like an impending bodybag lol

...are you sure about that?

Look at this logically. ZeRo is counterpicked decently by Kamemushi and likely also by Shuton, given that Olimar is a matchup ZeRo personally dislikes/Diddy loses, that Shuton is significantly better than Dabuz with Olimar, and that he's previously shown prowess in the matchup by easily disposing of Nietono. Dabuz (assuming Rosa) is favored to lose against Abadango (Mewtwo) and Kamemushi. There's also the option to send out another losing matchup (Cloud in Komo). Nairo could feasibly struggle with Komo or Shuton. There's no definite answer to Salem but all of Team Japan's members can beat him. ANTi, assuming Mario, would be favored to lose against Komorikiri and Abadango. I have no idea how well T would perform, but he has matchup inexperience and his own skill going for him to make some sort of mark. I think it'd be silly to presume that Japan doesn't at least have some chance in this 5v5.

 

[DunnoBro]

...are you sure about that?

Look at this logically. ZeRo is counterpicked decently by Kamemushi and likely also by Shuton, given that Olimar is a matchup ZeRo personally dislikes/Diddy loses, that Shuton is significantly better than Dabuz with Olimar, and that he's previously shown prowess in the matchup by easily disposing of Nietono. Dabuz (assuming Rosa) is favored to lose against Abadango (Mewtwo) and Kamemushi. There's also the option to send out another losing matchup (Cloud in Komo). Nairo could feasibly struggle with Komo or Shuton. There's no definite answer to Salem but all of Team Japan's members can beat him. ANTi, assuming Mario, would be favored to lose against Komorikiri and Abadango. I have no idea how well T would perform, but he has matchup inexperience and his own skill going for him to make some sort of mark. I think it'd be silly to presume that Japan doesn't at least have some chance in this 5v5.

This, plus US' pool is just so much larger than Japan's. While I'm sure we can all agree the AVERAGE skill level is higher, US definitely has more players above the general outliers of Japan. If Japan wants to win, they're going to need counterpicks and proper usage of their stronger players.

Which is why I think they also have a better chance 5v5 than 10v10.

 

[teddystalin]

...are you sure about that?

Look at this logically. ZeRo is counterpicked decently by Kamemushi and likely also by Shuton, given that Olimar is a matchup ZeRo personally dislikes/Diddy loses, that Shuton is significantly better than Dabuz with Olimar, and that he's previously shown prowess in the matchup by easily disposing of Nietono. Dabuz (assuming Rosa) is favored to lose against Abadango (Mewtwo) and Kamemushi. There's also the option to send out another losing matchup (Cloud in Komo). Nairo could feasibly struggle with Komo or Shuton. There's no definite answer to Salem but all of Team Japan's members can beat him. ANTi, assuming Mario, would be favored to lose against Komorikiri and Abadango. I have no idea how well T would perform, but he has matchup inexperience and his own skill going for him to make some sort of mark. I think it'd be silly to presume that Japan doesn't at least have some chance in this 5v5.

You can look at it logically via matchups, yeah, but the fact remains that this is actually a shaky crew by Japanese standards. Abadango is the exception to the rule of Japanese players doing well in crews: in 5 crew battles this year, he's only taken 9 stocks while losing 13 of his own. He manages to take a dent out of the players he's up against, but rarely finishes them off, even if he has a stock lead. Kameme also hasn't had a real standout performance in crews - his most successful appearance this saw him blowing a huge lead v Salem. T and Komo will do their jobs and likely do them well: the former is a real value pick, while the latter has been a successful anchor for every team he's played on. I think Shuton is actually the player most likely to go on a crazy run: he's great in crews and is repping a character who can often provoke sloppy play in opponents.

That being said, Japan might do better in a 10v10: players like Nietono, KEN, or (the improbable) Ranai and Kie would help their consistency and raise the odds of a wildcard taking a chunk out of the US Team. Besides, the US Team would probably be getting more Midwestern talent instead of like... Larry.

 

[Megamang]

I fear literally no one in the US has any idea how to fight a link of T's level. zero is probably the best bet for him, due to playstyle, skill, and character, but itd still be hard.

Or he'll flounder and we'll say "guess link does blow".


Re: gren V Corrin.

Theres a MU where counter is still absurd. Counter a fair or non sour nair and gren eats ****, it aint pretty. Plus really good forward airs with disjoint and range and confirms tend to be obnoxious to work around.

But.. mobility and shurikan and grab > juggle all hurt corrin.

Id wager its stage dependent, even MU in a set. gren would hate BF, Lylat, Dreamland. TaC is alright for both. FD gren advantage. just a guess though, i play some corrins but frequently choose mega since corrin doesnt have much of an answer to air shooter, pellets, leaf shield, etc.

PSA: Dragon surge has no cooldown on successful trigger. dont try unless you have perrrfect timing.

 

[TDK]

Frostbite 5v5 crews

Team USA:
ZeRo
Dabuz
Nairo
Salem
ANTI

Team Japan:
Komorikiri
Kamemushi
Abadango
Shuton
T

They said they're trying to make it 10v10. Sure hope so cuz' otherwise this looks like an impending bodybag lol

What's a Frostbite and when is it? Also, HECK yeah T gets his first stateside appearance!

Also, you're heavily underrating Japan here. Aba does struggle in crews, but I could see him doing well vs or at least cleaning up Dabuz. ZeRo bodies Aba and could hurt Komo but he's solidly counterpicked by Kamemushi and Shuton (Both matchups ZeRo dislikes/diddy struggles in). Nairo, Salem, and ANTi could all potentially go on a tear as they're all very explosive players. Nairo's had close sets with Komo or they've blown each other out so that could go either way, same with Salem vs Kamemushi, and ANTi could realistically destroy the entire crew if he gets going.

The real wildcard for me is T. Nobody on the USA crew has faced a Link even close to T's level (I have no idea if any of them have fought Scizor but the gap between T and Scizor is moderately large.) I could realistically see T taking out any of the USA crew and denting another member similar to what Kie did vs East Coast, running through the last few stocks of someone, or getting beaten badly, though that's unlikely.

USA wins by Names, Japan has matchups and the wildcard factor in T. Super excited for T to get over here and show the world what Link can do in full.

...or he'll drown in pools and we'll be waiting until the next Umebura to see him at his full again.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

All aboard the T hype train
that means Link discussion right?

 

[Rizen]

My thoughts on vs:
This MU is volatile; both characters have to play carefully and get punished hard if they jump the gun.

Charizard has the better throw game, killing earlier, Dthrow>Fair at low %s and because Char's heavy+floaty physics make Link not have Dthrow combos guaranteed. His jab is a very fine jab that chain's or combos (not sure what is true) into other options and kill confirms like upB. Char's flare blitz punishes reckless rolling and projectile spam hard. Charizard has an easier time recovering from offstage. Char's OoS is great but Link shouldn't be upclose hitting his shield so it doesn't come into play as much as some other MUs. Char has some nasty kill moves like Bair on top of all that.

Link can punish hard too. His DA is like DDD's in terms of kill power and reaches over the lower platforms of BF. Although Link loses his grab combos he has an easy time juggling Char and other confirms like Bomb>Fair. Zair and grab both outrange Charizards aerials and tilts and Link has a big disjointed sword vs Charizard's normals which have no armor/intangibility (like Bowser's arms) except on Uair and frame 22-25 Fsmash. Link's Dair when fresh overpowers Flare Blitz and can bounce on flame thrower and 2nd hit Charizard for 11%. Link can tether the ledge and wait until flame thrower dies out before reeling in.

In general Link controls the match but has to be very careful. Charizard must approach and is a huge target. Platforms help Charizard's Uthrow kill early but also let Link platform camp and make Char's landings hell. IMO Char does best on FD due to the lack of platforms. Link's walling is long enough to get past Char's tilts and reach (Link does well vs Mewtwo because this too). Link can survive a long time like Charizard and actually challenge Flame thrower and Flare Blitz with attacks. Char wins in CQC and has strong reward. IMO the stage list favors Link more if he knows to play passively.

IMO it's +/-1 Link/Charizard.