Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TimidKitsune129]

While I must admit greninjas results are indeed better, I never knew 3 reps in top 24 at SSC(One getting 9th), 17th I believe at TBH6, and various top 8 japense results were unremarkable. Also on the subject of corrin, at a Florida national Mugi beat Day and Prince Ramen and faces WormyNugget for winners top 8.

It was actually at Super Smash Con. Cosmos was the one that got 17th at TBH6.

So that means 4 Corrins have taken 17th place at a major. Apparently that's unremarkable tho.

/shrugs

 

[Deleted member]

While I must admit greninjas results are indeed better, I never knew 3 reps in top 24 at SSC(One getting 9th), 17th I believe at TBH6, and various top 8 japense results were unremarkable. Also on the subject of corrin, at a Florida national Mugi beat Day and Prince Ramen and faces WormyNugget for winners top 8.

Yeah, Mugi is PR'd here. Very scary player.

Corrin's results are fine. If anything they've been improving, I don't think she's high tier at all but she's comfortably in the upper echelon of mid tier. She could have the same power level as Marth, I dunno. I don't pay much attention to Corrin overall.

 

[Laken64]

It was actually at Super Smash Con. Cosmos was the one that got 17th at TBH6.

So that means 4 Corrins have taken 17th place at a major. Apparently that's unremarkable tho.

/shrugs

Lets also not forget Cosmos placing 4th at LTC with Zero, Nairo and Hyuga there.

Yeah, Mugi is PR'd here. Very scary player.

Corrin's results are fine. If anything they've been improving, I don't think she's high tier at all but she's comfortably in the upper echelon of mid tier. She could have the same power level as Marth, I dunno. I don't pay much attention to Corrin overall.

No one really pays attention to Corrin since release tbh (Except when Counter was broken and IP made everyone scream nerf) because pre-patch overshadowed him. The problem with this is the misinformation that come from players that don't even use Corrin or pick him up like once. The most common one is as said earlier in this thread and early in Corrin's early life is that Corrin doesn't have any results which is absolutely false like Timid and Shadow had said. That being said I believe Corrin is either High/top Mid or bottom High tier, (leaning to high/top Mid) His meta is the youngest compared to his higher placing high tier companions like . And still has room to grow (I mean look at , Nerf is a dead meme with all the work players have been putting in and the buff from 1.1.5). Currently I think Corrin would make for a strong secondary/counterpick with players like Earth picking her up as of late.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Corrin is a solid upper mid character. His results are under that of the weaker high tiers (Marth for example), but they're better than most mid tiers. Very good counter pick character, but his mobility issues and the fact he's actually weak to a "just run away" plan means he's always going to struggle a bit as a solo character but have flashes in the pan where he'll get good results for a week or two... which is rather mid tier like.

He's 18th right now. He should be about 22nd/23rd.

 

[Illuminose]

Corrin is a character that most likely has no -2 matchups (Diddy is regarded as -1, Bayo too). There is no way a character that has no glaringly poor matchups is sub top 20.

 

[Deleted member]

Corrin is a character that most likely has no -2 matchups (Diddy is regarded as -1, Bayo too). There is no way a character that has no glaringly poor matchups is sub top 20.

would like to say hi.

I'm not even trying to be condescending here, Sheik is considered by many Corrins to be her worst matchup.

 

[Illuminose]

Sheik vs Corrin is not a -2 matchup, and I've never seen it listed as such (typically listed as a slight advantage for Sheik in every Sheik or Corrin matchup chart I've seen). Corrin does struggle with needles and Sheik ledge traps, but her range, reward, and ability to stay safe in KO situations make the matchup completely fine.

 

[Illusion.]

I thought was considered his worst MU?

 

[Ethan7]

Rebirth IX
(134 entrants)
1st | Zinoto
2nd | Salem
3rd | Rayquaza07 []
4th | LOE1[]
5th | Ryuga
5th | Xane
7th | smasher1001[]
7th | Colinies
9th | Regralht
9th | Blade
9th | Hawk[]
9th | TekNo[]
13th | Komota
13th | Miloni
13th | Ksev
13th | Meek
Rebirth IX | Brackets

 

[Megamang]

iStudying was using a huge amount of pivot grabs vs Shieks. It was actually able to consistently punish fair and nair jump ins.

Bair is also being utilized more; greninja is often criticized for slow aerials but bair is really fast for its considerable range.

And while he struggles to land a kill confirm against a very knowledgeable opponent, they still happen occasionally. With rage,they kill really really early,so its good they arent consistent.

Then you have fair. Much like m2 (not as extreme but still...), greninja stops fishing for a confirm and starts fishing for just a raw kill. Fair is effective in a huge variety of situations, if you know your timings and keep your fast opponent off of your boxing range.


But greninja is pretty good in boxing range anyways. Jab 3 has decent kb and sends the opponent offstage fairly frequently. Dtilt is fast, ranged-ish, and both sets up kills forever from usmash then fair.

With rage and the lightweights of top tier, uthrow is actually proving invaluable for gren.

Something id like to see more is RAR nair, or FH RAR AD into Nair. Facing backwards and crossing up (easier with c stick nairs!) Allows seamless shield pressure. Also, more ftilt. It has range and speed, and can be untechable.

But yea, the biggest improvement i saw from istudying were those amazing pivot grabs.

 

[Guido65]

I used to praise Swordspider, but after some time I started to look more into this character and I realized how blinded I was.

I think I will list the good things about this character and then follow up with the things that are keeping him out of relevancy.

Pros:
- Above average groundgame. Many say that there isn't anything to brag about Swordspider, but I would say that Swordspider's groundgame is something to brag about. He has good walk speed (1.188) and traction (0.064). His D-tilt is really good poke (frame 5, 8% damage, faf 20) and has some follow ups like Fair. His Jab is really good even tho it is slowish (Jab comes out on frame 6, faf on jab1 is 19, on jab2 faf is 23 and on jab3 it is 39). With jab you want to follow up jab1/jab2 with d-tilt or with grab. Also like other Miis the Swordspider's grab is one of the better ones. His reward from grab is also good (can follow up D-throw with Fair/Uair). His groundgame is based around d-tilt spacing and jab mixing. Walking>Running is the way to go. Good Swordspider will stay grounded in neutral majority of the time. Also his DA is one of the better ones in this game. Even Trela praises Sw

- Strong killtools. Swordspider has a strong kit of killmoves. Many may not know, but Swordspider has the strongest Uair in terms of killpower. His f-Smash isn't a bad option either. It is pretty much Lucina version of Roy's Forward Smash. His U-Smash is really good too (comes out on frame 11, also it is also known to stagespike people who are hanging on the ledge for reasons unknown). I'm pretty sure that people here already know the Dair so I feel no reason to explain it (Dair -> Footstool uuuuuuhhhhhh....). He also has PT and Hero's Spin if chosen. PT is very similiar to that of a Ganondorf's Down-B. What makes it so good is that it sends people in an angle of 37 add to that it can kill people at the ledge at around 100%. Hero's Spin is pretty much copy of Link's. Only difference is that it has higher kgb, but shorter reach. You can follow up from Jab just like with Link, but it is a bit easier to follow up with (due to faf differences). Then there is Chakram. It isn't a killmove itself, but he is able to followup slow Chakram with a killmove like Hero's Spin, F-smash and PT.

- Good recovery (if chosen SSD)

Cons:
- Poor aerial mobility. Swordspider's air mobility is horrible. Even tho he has good set of aerials, like Ganondorf, he lacks the mobility to abuse them.

- Lack of range. Even tho he has really good moves etc they do lack in range. Just boosting his mobility or giving him more range would help a lot.

- Combo food. Just like with Gunner he does suffer from being combo food. He lacks quick escape moves. Add to that his poor aerial mobility and you can see why Swordspider struggles against combo animals.

- Poor recovery (if Up-B1)

As for MUs... No one knows really. In general Swordspider struggles anyone with better frame data, good combo game or/and great neutral. Swordspider does do well against characters with lacking neutral, average or worse recovery and/or poor landing options. Some say that he beats Rosa and Bayonetta, but then again thous are not that common MUs so it is mainly based around theorycrafting.

In general Swordspider has no place in competitive play due to lack of aerial mobility and/or reach on his attacks.

Also I think that Gunner might end up being a bigger threat in competitive play than Brawler in the future. I will talk about it later when I got the time and willpower.

Sorry for my poor english again.

While a lot of this is mostly true but there's one thing that you never mentioned that's much more detrimental to mii sword then his air mobility:his jumpsquat. His air mobility while not anything to write home about isn't godawful. Although it is below average at 0.96 air speed which is just slightly below the average 1.0 air speed and his mediocre air acceleration isn't what hurts his aerials. The fact that his jumpsquat is 7 frames makes his ground to air transition slower and prevents him from utilizing his otherwise amazing aerials especially his up air which is disgustingly good and one of his most versatile moves that has a ton of uses and amazing pros such as it's gigantic hitbox, amazing kill power, good autocancel window which also includes it's initial autocancel which lasts until the hitbox comes out, great combo potential, high damage, and the late hitbox's ability to frame trap and extend juggles.Aside from that your pretty much spot on.

Spoiler: Up air's hitbox

 

[chaos11011]

Invasion 9, CT (77 Entrants)

1. DNL Marss
2. Pugwest
3. SS Mr. E
4. iQHQ Vinnie
5. Raffi-x
5. belaC
7. iQHQ Raptor
7. Oatmeal
9. Angel Cortes
9. Craftis
9. UG LingLing
9. UG Nelvin
13. NTarps
13. Mtn64
13. sage

 

[Krysco]

I always found Mii Swordfighter's jump squat to be quite the outlier. Most characters with longer jumpsquat animations are the ones on the heavier side of the cast. Bowser is the only character with an 8 frame jumpsquat while the likes of Charizard, Ganon, Ike and Link have frame 7. Robin does too despite not being on the heavier side but that's likely to balance his/her powerful and easy to autocancel Levin aerials. Then you've got the likes of DK, Jr, D3, Yoshi and Wario with frame 6 jumpsquats. Zelda, Corrin, Falco and Puff do too and my only guess for Zelda and Puff being to balance them since Zelda's aerials are powerful and Puff has high air speed, air acceleration, long lasting aerials and Rest. No idea why Swordfighter, Corrin or Falco have the jumpsquats that they do.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Corrin is a character that most likely has no -2 matchups (Diddy is regarded as -1, Bayo too). There is no way a character that has no glaringly poor matchups is sub top 20.

For a character with as many dedicated mains as Corrin, of high level caliber, to fail to hit top 8 or top 12 even so often at majors, one of two things has to be true:

1) He actually has -2 MUs and nobody wants to admit it

2) He has way more -1s in the high/top tier range than anyone wants to admit.

This isn't a case of like, Greninja who only has one or two top level mains, or Ness who barely has anyone anymore. Corrin has one of the largest pool of mains for a supposed "high but not top tier" character. It just doesn't add up, and fits in much better with the typical mid tier range. Which is sub-20. He's just at the top of that range.

 

[verbatim]

For a character with as many dedicated mains as Corrin, of high level caliber, to fail to hit top 8 or top 12 even so often at majors, one of two things has to be true:

That's not how it works, ESPECIALLY with newer characters that take more time for people to really understand. 1.1.6 is the second time that Bayonetta has been nerfed, and yet she is doing the "best" results wise now compared to before. Same thing with Corrin, who was undoubtedly a better character in 1.1.4 but now wins more.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV1bMvKyqXw

So Qwerty (Lucario/Charizard main from MDVA) actually beat Rich Brown at the most recent Xanadu with Lucario. While Rich did SD game three, which probably cost him the set, Qwerty's movement options and Aura Sphere cancels made Lucario look both extremely fast and like he always has a hitbox attached to him.

 

[|RK|]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV1bMvKyqXw

So Qwerty (Lucario/Charizard main from MDVA) actually beat Rich Brown at the most recent Xanadu with Lucario. While Rich did SD game three, which probably cost him the set, Qwerty's movement options and Aura Sphere cancels made Lucario look both extremely fast and like he always has a hitbox attached to him.

I'm going to watch this in a sec, but I think this re-opens the conversation about Mewtwo vs Lucario being -2 or -3 for Lucario.

EDIT: Also, about Lucario appearing fast... His dash to shield is really good, his initial dash is *1.8* (Diddy's is 1.7, for comparison), his airspeed is 20th best in the game, run speed is average, and his walk speed is slightly below average. He is kinda fast.

EDIT 2: Oh wait - pretty sure I saw this in person. Didn't Rich Brown get him in the runback by reflecting his aura spheres at him? The timing got kinda predictable.

 

[Nu~]

That's not how it works, ESPECIALLY with newer characters that take more time for people to really understand. 1.1.6 is the second time that Bayonetta has been nerfed, and yet she is doing the "best" results wise now compared to before. Same thing with Corrin, who was undoubtedly a better character in 1.1.4 but now wins more.

But you have to keep in mind that Corrin isn't exactly a very complex character. No where NEAR as complex or option rich as Bayonetta.


The character has been out as long as Bayonetta yet hasn't seen nearly as much meta advancement because there aren't as many possibilities to explore. Bad enough that many corrin mains put nearly all of their brainstorming power into developing the insta pin meta...

 

[Nah]

For a character with as many dedicated mains as Corrin, of high level caliber, to fail to hit top 8 or top 12 even so often at majors, one of two things has to be true:

1) He actually has -2 MUs and nobody wants to admit it

2) He has way more -1s in the high/top tier range than anyone wants to admit.

This isn't a case of like, Greninja who only has one or two top level mains, or Ness who barely has anyone anymore. Corrin has one of the largest pool of mains for a supposed "high but not top tier" character. It just doesn't add up, and fits in much better with the typical mid tier range. Which is sub-20. He's just at the top of that range.

That's not how it works, ESPECIALLY with newer characters that take more time for people to really understand. 1.1.6 is the second time that Bayonetta has been nerfed, and yet she is doing the "best" results wise now compared to before. Same thing with Corrin, who was undoubtedly a better character in 1.1.4 but now wins more.

I feel like these two statements are not mutually exclusive

it's because the character's so new (and did not garner anywhere near the same attention as Bayo) that nobody really has any real idea what their MU spread is like

while upticks in Corrin results probably have something to do with people getting better with/understanding the character more, by that same token there's also less of a counter-meta developed against the character too

I really would not be be surprised if Corrin's MU spread looks worse over time

also the 1.14 nerfs were pretty minor

 

[Laken64]

I thought was considered his worst MU?

,,, , and (imo) are Corrin's generally agreed bad MUs

 

[verbatim]

also the 1.14 nerfs were pretty minor

Corrin got nerfs to walk, run, and air speed, as well as almost all of her aerials in 1.1.5.

Of the aerials, fair getting nerfed was probably a good thing for the character in the long run since they gained more combo's, but before the nerf Corrin's up air killed ridiculously early with rage.

I think the movement nerfs were a bigger thing though, since it's such an important aspect of fighting games.

 

[ARGHETH]

For a character with as many dedicated mains as Corrin, of high level caliber, to fail to hit top 8 or top 12 even so often at majors, one of two things has to be true:

Out of all the Category 3/4s on Das Koopa's list, notable Corrin mains (Ryo, Ryuga, Cosmos, Frozen) have only been to TBH6, SSC 2016, and CEO 2016 (assuming Ryo went Corrin there). Umebura SAT and Pound 2016 are questionable depending on how you count Earth and ESAM.
Out of those, they lost to a bunch of different players: Mr. R(x2), JaK(Diddy), Dabuz, Ally(x1.5), Nairo, Fatality, SGK, Larry Lurr, and pankeiki(ROB). They beat Zinoto, Gomamugitya, tyroy, falln, Venia, ESAM, Day, and Mr. E (and Nakat, if ESAM at Pound counts).
So really, Corrin's performance at majors doesn't really tell us much about his MUs, except that Diddy, ZSS, Sheik, Falcon, Sonic, Rosalina, ZSS, and Fox are probably even/disadvantaged MUs.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's Nair has sucky range and reverse crossups can be easily dealt with almost on reaction by any half-decent anti-air. Or, to put it more simply, almost any fast Utilt in the game. I have never been an advocate for crossup Nair despite a lot of Greninja players seeming to like it. Whilst it does have its uses, you really can't get predictable at all with it. Greninja's crossup game is nowhere near as strong as someone like Mario.

Bair, however, is a very good move.

20th is too low for Greninja at the moment. Characters should not be more than a few spots away from their position on Koopa's rankings (or other similar weighted results rankings) since tier lists need to accurately reflect results. The main anomalies would be Villager-esque characters who have proven themselves at (Super)Majors but have lacklustre results in general. Looking at Koopa's rankings, only Villager, Tink and Lucario fit this bill. Putting all of them above Greninja (and I would argue Lucario doesn't deserve that) would still leave him in 17th place.

I may be splitting hairs, but Greninja should be considered a solid member of the 15th-20th club rather than a character who floats around 20th. He's shown much greater consistency than even I thought he was capable of.

Are you sure we lose to Sonic badly?

So far . . .

1.) Some beat KEN twice in bracket (4 times if you include WiFi league)

2.) DarkAura beat SuperGirlKels twice

3.) iStudying beat IxisNaugus just now

I'd usually agree with you but Greninja's have been doing so much better at the MU recently. You'd be hard pressed to find a top Sonic win this time last year.

Also want to mention that iStudying has been doing much better against Mr. R and took him to game 5 today too. Mr. R is the most experienced Sheik in the match up and he only considers it a slight advantage for Sheik.

Illusion beat me to it, but 40:60 doesn't mean unwinnable. There are going to be upsets in bracket. At this stage, I can't say whether the fact that most of these upsets have been recent is anything more than coincidence.

The MU is pretty awful on paper, and when you consider that most of these Sonics are aggressive players (particularly Ixis) it suggests that they aren't optimising what should be a fairly easy win for them.

Sheik is a more interesting case where there are legitimate grounds for considering it to be more like 45:55. Though iStudying still has yet to beat Mr R, there are many other Greninja victories over Sheik. I still think Sheik players need to stop running into Dtilt and weak Nair, but even if they do, just playing the neutral against her is a lot more doable since the most recent nerfs to Fair and needles.

 

[Laken64]

Corrin got nerfs to walk, run, and air speed, as well as almost all of her aerials in 1.1.5.

Of the aerials, fair getting nerfed was probably a good thing for the character in the long run since they gained more combo's, but before the nerf Corrin's up air killed ridiculously early with rage.

I think the movement nerfs were a bigger thing though, since it's such an important aspect of fighting games.

Walk (1.2 → 1.15), run speed (1.5 → 1.45), and air speed (1. → 0.97) slightly reduced.
After the patch hit we had a whole thread on this and came to the conclusion that these nerfs in mobility which we thought was bad when we saw the changes practically was an overreaction. I mean you don't really feel much of a difference in-game from pre patch to now tbh.
Here is a basic summary:

Her dmg output as of now is overall better. Corrin's aerial combos combine much better and later due to f air and n air having less knock back (also we have been given new kill set ups because of this). With 2 extra f airs and or n airs on a stock u have made up the stated dmg deficit with extra credit. Personally ive been stringing aerials up to much higher percents. You are right in saying the string has less dmg. Because of this her burst dmg at lower percents is now less. Yet, now corrin can string the same combos into the 80's and 90's which was impossible before without platforms. Before at said percents she could follow into one aerial from a combo starter. Now she can combo 2 to 3 aerials at these percents off a combo starter. As such her aerial dmg is much more consistant moving into higher percents when before it dropped off (albeit less bursty). Also corrin's speed was decreased by 2 percent ( but acceleration was not touched so short burst should be no diffrent). Hurts a little, but its not like she cant juggle her u-tilt anymore. Also aerial speed was un touched. U -air needed the nerf with these f air and n air changes (true combos to u air at a percent and hight old u air would kill... its super easy bake). Maybe she is as worse as you say, maybe better, only time will tell.

And to compare pre patch Corrin to current patch Corrin there is this video:

If you're wondering why Olimar is in the video, Olimar has a run speed of 1.47, 0.02 faster then Corrin.
Basically the patch helped more than harmed Corrin giving more generous % ranges for fair to DFS and his combo potential. The nerfs were like Cloud's, slaps on the wrists.

 

[Das Koopa]

Potentially Controversial Hypothesis

Europe is considerably lower in skill level than Japan or the U.S. because they don't adapt as quickly due to having a slower format that doesn't force adaptability. In turn, Japan's bizarrely high average may be a result of a highly conservative format, with Bo1 pools, Bo3 2 stock all/most tourney in many circumstances, etc, that forces players to quickly adapt.

These traits all respectively carry over to three-stock format, except the third stock doesn't provide much of an advantage to European players since they're more quickly placed into a stock deficit due to being downloaded more quickly as a result of metagame differences. Conversely, European players do not have a third stock when they attend U.S tournaments.

It's just very difficult to ignore that Europe's better players have a history of not doing very well internationally outside of Mr. R, who is effectively Europe's ZeRo. The common hypotheses behind ZeRo's waning dominance was partly that people simply caught up as the scene expanded and grew.

I don't mean to insult Europe's players but some sort of explanation needs to come up for the difference in skill level, which very clearly exists. I would argue that Europe's skill level sans Mr. R is greater than, say, MD/VA, but likely around the threshold of areas like Arizona, Houston/DFW, the Chicago area, and parts of Florida.

This idea of mine wasn't born just from this recent outing, mind you, it's born from a history of players who do very, very well in Europe having little stateside presence:

International placements: (BEAST 6 included)

Sodrek

Spoiler

Placements:
7th (BEAST 6)
13th (Little Big House 6)
49th (The Big House 6)

Notable set wins:
IxisNaugus (BEAST 6)
DarkShad (LBH6)
Z (TBH6)


Set losses:
S1-14 (BEAST 6)
iStudying (BEAST 6)
6WX (LBH6)
Kameme (LBH6)
Komorikiri (TBH6)
Saj (TBH6)

Cyve

Spoiler

Placements:
9th (BEAST 6)
9th (PSG Classic 2016)
49th (EVO 2016)
4th (MSM 58)
25th (2GGT KTAR Saga)

Notable set wins:
Karna (MSM 58)
JK (2GGT: KTAR Saga)
Johnny Westside (2GGT: KTAR Saga)

Set losses:
ESAM (BEAST 6)
iStudying (BEAST 6)
HIKARU (PSG Classic 2016)
Kameme (PSG Classic 2016)
Tweek (EVO 2016)
Pugwest (EVO 2016)
K9 (MSM 58)
Aarvark (MSM 58)
Tyrant (2GGT: KTAR Saga)
TLTC (2GGT: KTAR Saga)

iStudying

Spoiler

Placements:
2nd (BEAST 6)
25th (Pound 2016)
7th (Midwest Mayhem 2)
17th (GOML 2016)

Notable set wins:
<iStudying's entire Losers Bracket at BEAST 6, including numerous European notables and MVD + ESAM>
Boss (Pound 2016)
Nero (Midwest Mayhem 2)
Dan (Midwest Mayhem 2)
Anonymous Moniker (Midwest Mayhem 2)

Set losses:
Light (BEAST 6)
Mr. R (BEAST 6)
K9 (Pound 2016)
Seagull Joe (Pound 2016)
Tyroy (Midwest Mayhem 2)
DarkShad (Midwest Mayhem 2)
Larry Lurr (GOML 2016)
Alphicans (GOML 2016)

 

[jet56]

Potentially Controversial Hypothesis

Europe is considerably lower in skill level than Japan or the U.S. because they don't adapt as quickly due to having a slower format that doesn't force adaptability. In turn, Japan's bizarrely high average may be a result of a highly conservative format, with Bo1 pools, Bo3 2 stock all/most tourney in many circumstances, etc, that forces players to quickly adapt.

These traits all respectively carry over to three-stock format, except the third stock doesn't provide much of an advantage to European players since they're more quickly placed into a stock deficit due to being downloaded more quickly as a result of metagame differences. Conversely, European players do not have a third stock when they attend U.S tournaments.

It's just very difficult to ignore that Europe's better players have a history of not doing very well internationally outside of Mr. R, who is effectively Europe's ZeRo. The common hypotheses behind ZeRo's waning dominance was partly that people simply caught up as the scene expanded and grew.

I don't mean to insult Europe's players but some sort of explanation needs to come up for the difference in skill level, which very clearly exists. I would argue that Europe's skill level sans Mr. R is greater than, say, MD/VA, but likely around the threshold of areas like Arizona, Houston/DFW, the Chicago area, and parts of Florida.

This idea of mine wasn't born just from this recent outing, mind you, it's born from a history of players who do very, very well in Europe having little stateside presence:

International placements: (BEAST 6 included)

Sodrek

Spoiler

Placements:
7th (BEAST 6)
13th (Little Big House 6)
49th (The Big House 6)

Notable set wins:
IxisNaugus (BEAST 6)
DarkShad (LBH6)
Z (TBH6)


Set losses:
S1-14 (BEAST 6)
iStudying (BEAST 6)
6WX (LBH6)
Kameme (LBH6)
Komorikiri (TBH6)
Saj (TBH6)

Cyve

Spoiler

Placements:
9th (BEAST 6)
9th (PSG Classic 2016)
49th (EVO 2016)
4th (MSM 58)
25th (2GGT KTAR Saga)

Notable set wins:
Karna (MSM 58)
JK (2GGT: KTAR Saga)
Johnny Westside (2GGT: KTAR Saga)

Set losses:
ESAM (BEAST 6)
iStudying (BEAST 6)
HIKARU (PSG Classic 2016)
Kameme (PSG Classic 2016)
Tweek (EVO 2016)
Pugwest (EVO 2016)
K9 (MSM 58)
Aarvark (MSM 58)
Tyrant (2GGT: KTAR Saga)
TLTC (2GGT: KTAR Saga)

iStudying

Spoiler

Placements:
2nd (BEAST 6)
25th (Pound 2016)
7th (Midwest Mayhem 2)
17th (GOML 2016)

Notable set wins:
<iStudying's entire Losers Bracket at BEAST 6, including numerous European notables and MVD + ESAM>
Boss (Pound 2016)
Nero (Midwest Mayhem 2)
Dan (Midwest Mayhem 2)
Anonymous Moniker (Midwest Mayhem 2)

Set losses:
Light (BEAST 6)
Mr. R (BEAST 6)
K9 (Pound 2016)
Seagull Joe (Pound 2016)
Tyroy (Midwest Mayhem 2)
DarkShad (Midwest Mayhem 2)
Larry Lurr (GOML 2016)
Alphicans (GOML 2016)

I actually strongly agree with this, and have thought the same thing for a long time
TBH I wanted to bring up the topic of region strength and how it affects the meta, but I also know its a sensitive topic and its hard for people to be objective on it. I would still like to address it though.

 

[verbatim]

I'd think that the geographic and price barriers would have a lot more to do with that. Did Europe have it's own unique format in Brawl?

 

[Luco]

Something that I've considered viability to affect is a wholistic, world-wide-focused PoV. That is, you can pick up a tier list anywhere in the world and because that list is affected by *the world* and, in part probably, your region, it kinda gives you a general likelihood of how likely your given character is to thrive in *any* region (some outliers would exist but that's the variety we always crave).

Skill differentials may exist, but it's worth pointing out that a purely American tier list might not help us here in Australia where our biggest threats include WFT, G&W and Lucas among others as central meta-threats. This is why I like Das Koopa's project so much because it gives credence to the results of (relative) top players in their respective regions on a world-wide scale, and that means the meta is more relevant to us.

I realise that idea would make some people feel uncomfortable, but I do think it's perhaps a better way of encompassing the tricky term of "viability", because at the end of the day what's "viable" comes down to you and the threats you have to deal with.

 

[blackghost]

I'm sure most of you guys just watched this but Zinoto just beat Salem in 14 games from WF to GF Set 2. Zinoto may have won but holy **** between this and 6-1ing Ally, Salem really showcases just how broken (not overtuned—like second coming of Brawl MK broken) Bayonetta is.

Of course, we saw the regular Bayo nonsense: recovering from the bottom corner of BF, killing at obscenely early percents off the top and the side, 70% witch time kills, etc. But towards the end of the set, Salem was down by a good margin and so he proceeded to platform camp on battlefield, using Bayo's special moves to simultaneously airstall and safely poke at Zinoto's shield with an unpunishable, potential 30%-death combo starter. He almost pulled it off and won the set and I believe that he employed this same strategy against Ally a few days ago to take those two dominant sets. I can't imagine there being much that any character in this game—aside from those with large, disjointed aerials like Rosa, Cloud, and Marth—can do against this strategy. And even then, they're still susceptible to getting witch timed and dying to a fully charged up smash at 70
This character is so blatantly broken and far and away the best character that it hurts to see so many people try to come up with reasons to excuse these embarrassingly irresponsible design choices. I'm fairly convinced that she loses no matchups (Rosalina being the only asterisk but that's probably just Dabuz being good) and that her evens don't stetch far beyond the likes of Diddy, Rosa, and maybe Sheik. She really doesn't have any holes in her game plan and her supposed "weaknesses" that we hear time and time again usually come down to X top tier doing it better.

ever consider that its maybe the PLAYER not just bayonetta salem is ridiculous. he reamains the best placing and most consistent user of the character. theres a lot of bayo players have any others even come close to what salem is doing? salem is the best bayo thats been known by most people since her release.
i havent watched the set yet but if salem was losing and then HE platform camped that shouldn't have lead to him winning. that sequence makes no sense.
no one has demonstrated that shes busted or broken. we've seen her beat by rushdown: nairo, sdi: kameme, and zoning.
i feel like someone says something like this whenever a bayo does well in tournament. her mu chart is full of 50-50s. (thats how she is commonly listed by most players here.) she doesnt destroy many characters at all.

 

[TDK]

in between all the complaiing about bayonetta, ever consider that its maybe the PLAYER not just bayonetta salem is ridiculous. he reamains the best placing and most consistent user of the character. theres a lot of bayo players have any others even come close to what salem is doing?

Zack and Saj are consistently just a few steps behind Salem and Pink Fresh is less consistent, but when he does well he does WELL.

 

[|RK|]

Potentially Controversial Hypothesis

Europe is considerably lower in skill level than Japan or the U.S. because they don't adapt as quickly due to having a slower format that doesn't force adaptability. In turn, Japan's bizarrely high average may be a result of a highly conservative format, with Bo1 pools, Bo3 2 stock all/most tourney in many circumstances, etc, that forces players to quickly adapt.

These traits all respectively carry over to three-stock format, except the third stock doesn't provide much of an advantage to European players since they're more quickly placed into a stock deficit due to being downloaded more quickly as a result of metagame differences. Conversely, European players do not have a third stock when they attend U.S tournaments.

It's just very difficult to ignore that Europe's better players have a history of not doing very well internationally outside of Mr. R, who is effectively Europe's ZeRo. The common hypotheses behind ZeRo's waning dominance was partly that people simply caught up as the scene expanded and grew.

I don't mean to insult Europe's players but some sort of explanation needs to come up for the difference in skill level, which very clearly exists. I would argue that Europe's skill level sans Mr. R is greater than, say, MD/VA, but likely around the threshold of areas like Arizona, Houston/DFW, the Chicago area, and parts of Florida.

This idea of mine wasn't born just from this recent outing, mind you, it's born from a history of players who do very, very well in Europe having little stateside presence:

International placements: (BEAST 6 included)

Sodrek

Spoiler

Placements:
7th (BEAST 6)
13th (Little Big House 6)
49th (The Big House 6)

Notable set wins:
IxisNaugus (BEAST 6)
DarkShad (LBH6)
Z (TBH6)


Set losses:
S1-14 (BEAST 6)
iStudying (BEAST 6)
6WX (LBH6)
Kameme (LBH6)
Komorikiri (TBH6)
Saj (TBH6)

Cyve

Spoiler

Placements:
9th (BEAST 6)
9th (PSG Classic 2016)
49th (EVO 2016)
4th (MSM 58)
25th (2GGT KTAR Saga)

Notable set wins:
Karna (MSM 58)
JK (2GGT: KTAR Saga)
Johnny Westside (2GGT: KTAR Saga)

Set losses:
ESAM (BEAST 6)
iStudying (BEAST 6)
HIKARU (PSG Classic 2016)
Kameme (PSG Classic 2016)
Tweek (EVO 2016)
Pugwest (EVO 2016)
K9 (MSM 58)
Aarvark (MSM 58)
Tyrant (2GGT: KTAR Saga)
TLTC (2GGT: KTAR Saga)

iStudying

Spoiler

Placements:
2nd (BEAST 6)
25th (Pound 2016)
7th (Midwest Mayhem 2)
17th (GOML 2016)

Notable set wins:
<iStudying's entire Losers Bracket at BEAST 6, including numerous European notables and MVD + ESAM>
Boss (Pound 2016)
Nero (Midwest Mayhem 2)
Dan (Midwest Mayhem 2)
Anonymous Moniker (Midwest Mayhem 2)

Set losses:
Light (BEAST 6)
Mr. R (BEAST 6)
K9 (Pound 2016)
Seagull Joe (Pound 2016)
Tyroy (Midwest Mayhem 2)
DarkShad (Midwest Mayhem 2)
Larry Lurr (GOML 2016)
Alphicans (GOML 2016)

I don't want to respond too quickly, but is that analysis of regions based on results, or what? Because MDVA has leveled up considerably over the past year. And from what I've seen, they usually get better results than Europe has at large tournaments - but perhaps that's recency bias.

 

[blackghost]

Zack and Saj are consistently just a few steps behind Salem and Pink Fresh is less consistent, but when he does well he does WELL.

i dont really think zach is even on sajs level yet. i think ghost is better overall just less known. saj and pink fresh dont handle zoning nearly as well as salem and thats the main difference between them. pink fresh has the prettiest bayo to watch thoug thats not even close he's the void of bayo players.

 

[Megamang]

The players should still be adapting for the whole game, regardless of length. I mean i see validity in the idea but i dont think if we switched stock systems our current skill comparisons would be significantly different.

There was a post a while back that compared density of game purchases aka player density and it trended with average skill. The top top level of skill is basically usually professional or at the very least semi pro; Europe certainly isnt behind in eSports but in smash they have had less of the professional scene i believe.

Also in Europe i feel a hardcore, training focused player is likely to find himself on a CS or Starcraft or other FG team.

 

[Kofu]

ever consider that its maybe the PLAYER not just bayonetta salem is ridiculous. he reamains the best placing and most consistent user of the character. theres a lot of bayo players have any others even come close to what salem is doing? salem is the best bayo thats been known by most people since her release.
i havent watched the set yet but if salem was losing and then HE platform camped that shouldn't have lead to him winning. that sequence makes no sense.
no one has demonstrated that shes busted or broken. we've seen her beat by rushdown: nairo, sdi: kameme, and zoning.
i feel like someone says something like this whenever a bayo does well in tournament. her mu chart is full of 50-50s. (thats how she is commonly listed by most players here.) she doesnt destroy many characters at all.

By the same logic you could argue against any character that gets most of their high-level results from one person. There's probably some merit to that, but even exceptional players aren't going to be placing top 8 consistently at majors and supermajors if their character choice is mediocre.

You have Ranai for Villager (though other Villager mains have begun to do well as of late), Earth for Pit, and Hyuga for Toon Link. Are these characters really as good as their players make them seem, or are the players just that good at utilizing their tools? The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. If the characters really are good then you'll, eventually, have other players replicating their results.

As far as Bayonetta goes, I feel like she is top 5. She has options and tools that no other character does and that many characters cannot adequately deal with. She also is probably the most capable of reversals out of any character by virtue of her terrifying disadvantage state. She's not broken but she has some pretty ridiculous options, and unless players learn to SDI her combos well I expect her performance to improve as time goes on and her mains learn to exploit her strengths.

I feel like this post puts her power level well (which is responding to the same post you did):

Thank you for the hyperbole, Sir Jjab430. You've really shown me how broken vacuums are.

(Serious: Bayonetta is stupid and pretty poorly designed within the context of Smash but saying she's far and away the best character is really, really, really silly.)

 

[TDK]

You have Ranai for Villager (though other Villager mains have begun to do well as of late), Earth for Pit, and Hyuga for Toon Link.

Hyuga hasn't entered a tournament since EVO 2016. Also, there's Sigma, Ri-Ma, and Hayato. from Japan for Tink.

I'd also say that there's only 2 or 3 consistent top players per character.

Spoiler: List of notable top players per character, off the top of my head

- Ally
- ANTi
- Zenyou
- Ron


- Elegant
- Mr. ConCon



- Kie
- Umeki
- Samsora
- SlayerZ
- LingLing


- LordMix
- KingKong
- HIKARU


- ViceGrip


- The Wall
- Raptor


- Dabuz
- Falln
- Kirihara
- Xaltis
- Atelier


- 2manycooks


- DKWill
- HIKARU


- ZeRo
- Zinoto
- Dyr
- JJROCKETS
- Nietono


- T
- Scizor
- Cat
- IzAw
- SoVa Unknown


- Ven
- Purple Guy


- VoiD
- Mr. R
- Vinnie
- Puppeh


- RayKalm
- Adom
- Gungnir


- Hyuga (He's been inactive since EVO, so you can count him or not)
- Sigma
- Ri-Ma
- Hayato.


- Johnny Westside
- Afro Smash


- Nairo
- Marss


- Mike Kirby
- Triple R


- Big D


- MKLeo
- Tyrant
- Ito


- Larry Lurr
- Shogun
- Megafox
- Sodrek
- NAKAT


- AC


- ESAM
- NAKAT
- Ridae


- Sharpy


- RDR7
- LeeT


- Abadango
- WaDi
- Rich Brown


- Tsu~
- Gomamugitya
- Day
- Serge
- Motsunabe


- iStudying
- Some
- Oishiitofu
- Venia
- DarkAura


- Fatality


- FOW (Inactive, but there)
- Shaky (Ditto.)
- NAKAT
- S1-14
- Taranito


- Taheita
- Mekos


- Mr. E
- Pugwest
- Fuwa


- Ryo
- Static Manny


- Ryo
- San
- Waldo


- Dath


- Kogarosuma
- Nairo (Maybe? Would you count Nairo's Lucina?)


- Cosmos
- YoC
- Ryuga
- Ryo


- Regi


- Earth
- Kuro


*Crickets Chirp*


- Prince Ramen
- TLTC
- IceNinja


- TheReflexWonder
(Nasubi dropped Wario)


- Dabuz (Technically?)
- Angbad
- Myran
- Shuton


- 8BitMan
- Mister Eric
- Raffi-X


- Ranai


- John Numbers


- Sol
- Alphicans


- Nicko
- Masha


- Brood
- Raito
- ImHip
- You3


- Komorikiri
- KEN
- 6WX
- SuperGirlKels
- Wrath
- Seagull Joe
- StaticManny
- IxisNagus


- Kamemushi
- ScAtt


- Tea
- Ginko
- Sinji


- Trela
- Darkshad
- DJ Jack
- Venom


- Komorikiri
- Tweek
- Mew2King
- Ned


- Salem
- Saj
- Captain Zack
- Pink Fresh
- Tyroy
- Ikep


*crickets chirp*


*crickets chirp*


- Rom

So it seems that at least I can think of well and beyond more Sonics and Bayos than the rest of the cast. I don't know every notable player of every character, these are just who I can think of. I couldn't think of any for .

 

[TDK]

Come to Papa 2 -184 Entrants

1st: Mew2King
2nd: Static Manny/Static/(Oni) Heero/All Might/(Instinct) Spark
3rd: Ridae
4th: Myran
5th: 8BitMan
5th: Wormynugget
7th: Dyr
7th: Prince Ramen
9th: Wizzrobe
9th: Mugi
9th: Ryo
9th: RoguePenguin
13th: Saj
13th: Leo Heart
13th: RiotLettuce
13th: Fatality

M2K actually timed out Spark game 5 of set 2.

My apologies for the double post.

Das Koopa

 

[verbatim]

So it seems that at least I can think of well and beyond more Sonics and Bayos than the rest of the cast. I don't know every notable player of every character, these are just who I can think of. I couldn't think of any for and depends on if you think the person I mentioned is good enough or not.

Sinji/Zage/Tea/Ginko(is a dual-main) are comparable Pacman's to some of the other people you mentioned.

Just off the top of my head there should be a lot more people in Ryu (darkshad, venom, dj jack), OCEAN probably shouldn't be in ROB (or rafii-x should also be there), and ac is a more notable Falco than Keitaro (whether that means you should have both or none is up to debate).

Also, you listed you3 as Corrin, did he switch mains?

 

[TDK]

Also, you listed you3 as Corrin, did he switch mains?

...I meant YoC. My bad!

Pretty sure You3 uses Duck Hunt and Corrin though. I'm not sure wether or not Zage is as good as the others (and I can't remember the last time Tea or Ginko did anything in tournament), and I'll give you AC. Falco in general is extremely main starved, though.

 

[T4ylor]

Pretty sure Zage went back to blazblue anyway. Doubt he's playing much smash TDK and isn't Cyro another good Falco?

 

[verbatim]

Zage was at smash con, IIRC he mentioned something keeping him occupied for the summer.

Tea and Ginko have tournament wins on Earth and Hikaru, and have had solid top 8 and top 32 placings over the summer through now.