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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Luco

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I know of a Ness main in Canada (Timmy) who plays this MU all the time and thinks we win it, slightly.

I'd link his explanation of it, but I can only find his post from almost a year back and it's got some outdated concepts (I know he still thinks we win it now though). On any mid-level Fox or higher Ness is usually safer going for a DJ AD to get out of Fox's Utilt string (which isn't hard to do because we don't have to time it yay).

Fox does pseudo-camp Ness with lasers, but it's weird and Ness responds by going into that mid-range zone where Fox feels like he has to do something. Most common approaches being run up --> Grab / DA, FH Dair, SH Tomahawk into things or FH jump away, Ness has options to deal with all of this even if his mobility isn't king. Sometimes illusion to reset, but I feel that's more of a mix-up. Fox also has PP tilts which are harder to work with because they increase the likelihood of forcing Ness into a guessing game of shield but then getting grabbed, which isn't the worst thing in the world but it's probably worse than other characters if Fox stays grounded (Ness is only easy to juggle if you stay grounded, this applies to most characters actually). This might be why SV is probably a better pick than FD because then Ness doesn't have to play that guessing game as hard. I'm used to a 1-stage ban ruleset these days, so that may be where our opinions differ.

The issue with playing lame is, that weird mid-range distance where doing anything can get you punished but only some characters actually have tools to consistently deal with that situation (like Sonic). I think this is the reason why top players don't do it like you suggest and probably doesn't work as well as you imagine.

It's a weird MU for both characters because they both play in ways they don't usually play. In practice most Foxes do end up rushing in and anything goes (it's a lot of yomi and player v player in those situations).

I've heard this MU thrown around as 55:45 and 50:50 before. Mobility is huge but it plays its part as well just like any other tool. I don't think Ness is crippled in the neutral like you assume, although I do think Fox has more options there. And when Ness puts Fox in disadvantage / offstage, hunting season is open. He's one of those characters who doesn't exploit our recovery hard and has his recovery exploited hard.
 

BSP

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I've explained what makes the matchup bad and results do support it.

Trela has lost to Zenyou who's 3rd at best with Mario:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S12u6_nzEdQ

He's also dropped games to pocket Marios in the past.

Mario definitely can't keep Ryu out as well as the previously mentioned examples but he doesn't have to. His dair is a perfect move for shutting down Focus attack both on the ground and in the air. And he simply outpunishes Ryu which is rare as Ryu gets comboed all over the place whereas Mario doesn't. Then add his very exploitable recovery to the mix.
Mario trying to Dair a Ryu focus attacking in the air is asking for a shoryuken to the face.
 

Browny

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Tier list 2.0 when?

Games almost been out for 2 years and theres only one 'official' tier list :/

Melee had 7 tier lists within a similar timeframe and Brawl had 4 before it was 2 years old. Come on guys, this game is WAY more dynamic than that :/

-----

also time to lolrant

6 months ago: 'Ryu doesnt need top 8 results at majors to be a top tier character' 'hes still being developed, other characters have had [time since game was released - ryu release date] more days experience'.

Today: 'Ryu doesnt need top 8 results at majors to be a top tier character' 'hes still being developed, other characters have had [time since game was released - ryu release date] more days experience'.

6 months from now: 'Ryu doesnt need top 8 results at majors to be a top tier character' 'hes still being developed, other characters have had [time since game was released - ryu release date] more days experience'.

Ryu is good but he will never be top tier, the goalposts are ALWAYS moving with this character.

But the BEST part is that the same people who say 'you care too much about results, character potential and theory are whats important' turn around and go 'yeah well trela beat Zero in friendlies with Ryu this one time'. I MEAN SERIOUSLY LOL THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENS.
 
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FeelMeUp

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Tier list 2.0 when?

Games almost been out for 2 years and theres only one 'official' tier list :/

Melee had 7 tier lists within a similar timeframe and Brawl had 4 before it was 2 years old. Come on guys, this game is WAY more dynamic than that :/
This game also has had the threat of a patch every 2 months.
 

Browny

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'Threat'

As if would cause the undoing of such a giant amount of effort

of people rating characters between 1 and 10 and then averaging out the results. Yeah it would mess it up eventually but I think its pretty safe the game isnt going to change much from 1.1.6.
 

FeelMeUp

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'Threat'

As if would cause the undoing of such a giant amount of effort

of people rating characters between 1 and 10 and then averaging out the results. Yeah it would mess it up eventually but I think its pretty safe the game isnt going to change much from 1.1.6.
Well....yeah, it could.
Doing something like, say, gutting Fox would immediately make a lot of bad characters(Shulk is a great example) more viable while making Sheik or Diddy not really change much.
Nerfing Rosa would bolster the power of all the game's zoners and a few top tiers.
Buffing a certain character could knock someone out of the top 5 spot(reverting MK, for example, would knock all floaties down a peg).
Never underestimate the effect of patches.

Edit: For those who were wondering when I was talking about playing Fox in a "lame" way this is a pretty good example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_JFRhdtE2Q
 
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TheGoodGuava

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and Mr. R posts his current tier list, once again we see Marth as a top 15 character

https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/760709372406296576
Other notable things are Bayo, Lucas, Lucina, Link (?), and Falcon (?)

I suppose Link can come from him frequently playing Izaw and him playing Link himself, theres also Lucina generally being very close to Marth on the tier list but I'm not sure about everyone else
 
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Das Koopa

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The July iteration of my charts & stuff will be coming soon + a region map update

preview before i sleep (gonna make the 4 last charts today when I take up)
-The West gettin' a change
-Two characters have skyrocketed in results.
-One character has made a big comeback within the last month after a steady decline.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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I love Ramin's tier lists.

Not that I agree with everything but I like how it manages to be different from your average, go-with-the-flow tierlist that insta-puts Mario into top 5 and Bayonetta outside of top 8 while still looking pretty reasonable. That's something I can respect. Zero and ESAM need to step up their tierlist game big time.

:059:
 

420quickscoper

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lol how is he the best Mewtwo in europe when Luigi player (who took a game off Abadango) and Semifer (sadly inactive) exist?
I think you have to take into consideration that after Luigi player took a game off Abadango, the 3rd game Abadango JV3'd him.
 

Luigi player

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I think you have to take into consideration that after Luigi player took a game off Abadango, the 3rd game Abadango JV3'd him.
Not saying I have the best M2 in europe (cuz that really can't be said, there are almost no comparisons / results for it since I mostly go Luigi in tourney), but me getting the business one game is no point at all. Taking a game off Abadango is pretty nice (for european standards at least). Abadango adapted really well in the last game and I was kinda feeling cornered too often. I think Dreamland was bad for me and I should've banned it instead of BF, but oh well. He also got his nice nair -> footstool KO pretty early which when he does get it makes quite a big difference. It's also true that Abadango completely wrecked everyone in tourney except like Ixis in a few games?

Getting wrecked one game doesn't even have to mean anything.

I hate stuff like that because people put way too much emphasis on things like that. I've seen Ally, M2K, and many more top players get destroyed in some games and still do well in others or even beat their opponent. Sometimes you just get the right/wrong reads in a game or something stupid happens etc. That doesn't mean every game will go like that.

That's also why switching character after one loses a game isn't always the best choice. Sometimes games just don't go well or you can see your mistakes etc. and can "fix" them in the next ones. The curse of playing many characters at a high level is that oftentimes you aren't sure which one to pick... I know that myself and I've heard and seen it from others as well. The "counterpick meta" is pretty dangerous unless you play a bo5 or something where you can afford to try them out.
The reason I switched from Luigi is because I've already played friendlies against vyQs M2 at home which was about even or his favor not sure anymore, and I had played a friendly set against Abadango the day before I had to play him in tourney with Luigi (the games were closer than the one in tourney, I was actually surprised it went so "well"). I had no idea what to do against him, but I just felt like trying Mewtwo out. I do second M2, Sonic, Diddy and Mario but wouldn't have felt comfortable with a different character and I'm sure Aba didn't like the ditto as well, my thoughts were "I could catch him off guard", "dittos are stupid and anything can happen" and "at least I'd have an even MU".

Anyway, I also got a "single game win" with Mewtwo in the crewbattle against the new rising Greninja Elexiao who got 4th at the tourney. Abadango is just on another level which should be pretty clear to everyone who was there.

Also aparently KillerJawz is completely inactive (but still on Ixis' and Jmillers level?) and I've also not seen anything from him. Mewtwo also beats Luigi so I can easily see him beating Jmiller. Mewtwo is also my pick against Luigi to avoid the ditto.
It keeps Luigi out so easily with its range (dtilt, fairs..) and edgeguards him really well too. It's a difficult MU for the green plumber (though I don't think it's unwinable or anything). Concon also lost to RichBrown like the last 3-4 times they've faced each other in bracket (not 100 % sure, but I did follow most of their tourneys), though oftentimes their sets were pretty/kinda close.

That being said, it's not impossible that KJz is the best M2 in europe. He doesn't seem to have proven anything either, though. But it seems to be a trend anyways to say "x is the best (character) in continent/world" without having faced or compared results with other good players with those characters.
 
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yoshi8984

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*snip on Ness vs Fox MU*
I think I have a great post here regarding my take on the Ness vs Fox MU (granted it is almost a year old but for the most part I think the concepts still remain similar to this day cause I made that post after Fox's Double Jab was patched lol). There are some handy video examples in there as well that show many situations!
(Feel free to correct any info I may have said, I'm actually not sure about the blastzone dat now)

My basic idea is that anything Fox can do, Ness outclasses him in it EXCEPT for movement, conditioning and frame data as well. And this MU all about stage control and conditioning! What I would update in that post now (and what I'll try to recap):

- I'd definitely say neutral is in Fox's hand since he can move so swiftly and reset back relatively safely with Illusion, and fire a few blaster shots here and there for chip damage. Fox's AC Dair and Bair aren't so bad either here. However, Ness has a pretty solid dash attack that can stuff Fox's moves (although it isn't safe on shield). He does however have falling Bair and a rising Nair that is safe on shield (unless powershielded) and so is a well spaced falling Uair, which can make for a hell of a wall. The second Fox does get read however, it will mean big damage for Ness.

- Fox's UTilt strings (yay conditioning #1)
If Ness Nairs and Fox UTilts, Ness escapes (and maybe trades).
If Ness Nairs and Fox shielded, Fox gets it going again (and it's a powershield)
^Now... With that being said, BECAUSE Nair is F5 and Uair is F8, you can try to Uair out of it if Ness predicts shield (it won't be a perfect shield unless Fox actually read Uair lol) and still be relatively safe (this is height/spacing dependent tho). Bair might work too (F10) but in some cases you're too low for the Bair to even come out lol
If they both wait expecting the attack Fox can react and get another move in (i.e. a Smash or another UTilt)

- Ness' PKF strings (conditioning #2)
Fox can counter a follow up in most cases by spamming his Jab button if he's caught in it. I say most b/c some cases I manage to somehow grab Fox despite it seeming like he was gonna Jab me lol. However:
If Ness was still in Jab range when PKF activates he doesn't get a follow up since PKF is laggy lol

If out of this range, and suspects a Jab, Ness can either PKF again for more damage or net him an F-Smash (just space and F-Smash) lol

If Ness suspects shield or a roll away:
The grab is obvious for the shield lol
As for the latter, in most cases Ness still has PKF endlag (unless from midair at the right height and is lag canceled) so Fox can roll away safely. If for some reason Fox does delay his roll or is in that quirky scenario, Ness can PKF or Nair to where he'll roll next.

- On the ledge (conditioning #3)
Fox can get a trump and freely DSmashes a regrab. A good majority of Ness' ledge options get covered by F-Smash, and Bair/Nair are pretty safe to beat jump. All I can say for Ness is mix up wisely lol
Ness however can D-Smash the ledge and cover most options well, his Nair and Bair work great too.

- Getting the KO (conditioning #4)
Fox will tomahawk and try to have Ness let his guard down to strike cause Fox doesn't have a solid KO throw. His Bair is also lagless so he can use that to punish Ness to fake a tomahawk. Ness needs to be careful with his spacing and not overextend or short hop at about close to mid range or he'll eat a USmash. But will punish a Fox trying to get greedy for the KO.

If Fox does gets a grab we're basically back to Conditioning #3 lol.

Also updating the list of KOs Fox can do, a strong Nair does at least offer Fox decent stage control, also I discovered his Fair spike > footstool is scary lol

Also lol I said "he can't pressure shields safely" back, Bair and Uair do that handily. Much I've learned since then :p

==

Regarding stages (updated thoughts):
BF gives Fox a really, REALLY good way to pressure Ness' shields with Uairs. Similar applies for DL.
T&C and DH do give Fox a good amount of room to run around, and former has a low ceiling for early Uair/USmash KOs.
Both character can janked by Lylat as they recover and do have their Side-Bs hindered in some cases.
FD and SV I'm neutral about. Of these however, I find BF to be the most troubling while fighting Fox lol

==

Wow with all these points I made going for Fox I made it sound like I'm arguing for his favor and contradicted myself rofl
Although please do go read the post I linked (I don't feel like quoting and putting another snip in this thread)

And no I never put TL;DRs :p

But side note I'm pretty sure I destroyed this Fox's soul (and I think it was bad DI first stock), quickest 2 stock? =P
 
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Ethan7

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I love Ramin's tier lists.

Not that I agree with everything but I like how it manages to be different from your average, go-with-the-flow tierlist that insta-puts Mario into top 5 and Bayonetta outside of top 8 while still looking pretty reasonable. That's something I can respect. Zero and ESAM need to step up their tierlist game big time.

:059:
People don't instantly put Mario in top 5. I see many people put Mario outside of top 5 from post EVO 2016 tier list. Both ZeRo and Esam ranked Mario lower than Mr. R, being at 11 and 7th (or 10th if it's not in order) respectably. Mario being top 5 isn't even "go-with-the-flow". Dabuz ranking Mario at 3rd is higher than most people and he said he would rank him lower if not for his results.
 
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The July iteration of my charts & stuff will be coming soon + a region map update

preview before i sleep (gonna make the 4 last charts today when I take up)
-The West gettin' a change
-Two characters have skyrocketed in results.
-One character has made a big comeback within the last month after a steady decline.
I have an idea of who 2 of the 3 characters are.
Also, will you be collecting data from the Road to Shine? I'm not sure if it'll fit given it's an online tournament (limited to Canadians and US Americans), but it has attracted a ton of people and notable names.
 

EternalFlare

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Mario trying to Dair a Ryu focus attacking in the air is asking for a shoryuken to the face.
Multiple hitting moves break focus and focus attack comes out slow enough to dair on reaction (31 frame startup before even level 1 and it's not until level 2 that you have to worry about an easy TSRK from a crumple).

Why would Cape be an instant kill? Sure, it puts Ryu in a bad position, but it gives him back his Tatsu, and it's not that easy to cape Ryu when he's going to use Shoryuken.
About that thing that where Ryu belongs in the tier list, I see him around 8th. Also, I think that Ryu mains actually see him higher than the others, like Hooded, he always says that he makes his videos trying to make him top 3 (which he believes Ryu can be).
If Ryu's SRK gets caped it's an instant kill. If he capes Tatsu, at that point Ryu is far offstage and forced to Tatsu right away again just to have a chance to recover. He'll be really low and any deep aerial will likely finish him off. Which is easy to get as you no longer have to react, you know he's about to Tatsu again and can position yourself accordingly. So it's basically an instant kill in most situations.

It's the reason why sword characters, especially Marth and Lucina edge guard Ryu really well as well. Once they interrupt his Tatsu once which is easy with disjoints, they can just refresh their jump with the ledge and rinse and repeat with bairs until he's dead.

Speaking of which I think Marth/Lucina probably beat Ryu not only because of edge guarding but because they have all the tools to zone him out. They can create a bubble of disjoints around them which is hard for Ryu to penetrate. Ryu doesn't have amazing mobility or a great projectile to help him get through.
 
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BunbUn129

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Multiple hitting moves break focus and focus attack comes out slow enough to dair on reaction (31 frame startup before even level 1 and it's not until level 2 that you have to worry about an easy TSRK from a crumple).
You've gotten it wrong. You need a frame 3 or faster move to break out of Mario's dair. Ryu's Shoryu has invincibility on start-up and until the hitbox is out so he can Shoryu between the hits of Mario's dair.

Edit: forgot to specify true Shoryu.
 
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-Tornado-

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Technically, if both are in the air you can use Focus to armor before the last hit of Mario's Dair and escape.
(TSRK is still the better option, though)
 
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BSP

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Multiple hitting moves break focus and focus attack comes out slow enough to dair on reaction (31 frame startup before even level 1 and it's not until level 2 that you have to worry about an easy TSRK from a crumple).
It's not hitting Ryu with Dair that's the problem, it's what he can do to Mario for landing the Dair. It's always punishable on hit vs. Ryu because shoryuken can have F1 invincibility. If I see Ryu focus and I go for Dair, if he knows the MU he will let me hit him, then tSRK me in the gap before the last hit of Mario's Dair. Heck, I think he could even start another Focus to stop being launched by Dair's final hit. Either way, bad idea for Mario unless he can only hit Ryu with the second to last hit of Dair so that Ryu wouldn't go into stun -> tSRK. Even then, I'm not completely sure that'd be safe on Mario's end, and I don't think it's worth the effort/risk.

You've gotten it wrong. You need a frame 3 or faster move to break out of Mario's dair. Ryu's Shoryu has invincibility on start-up and until the hitbox is out so he can Shoryu between the hits of Mario's dair.
If Mario has enough rage, F3 isn't fast enough either. I don't know how much rage Mario needs to trap Ryu in Dair, but he should always tSRK if he's going for the shoryuken escape.
 
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EternalFlare

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You've gotten it wrong. You need a frame 3 or faster move to break out of Mario's dair. Ryu's Shoryu has invincibility on start-up and until the hitbox is out so he can Shoryu between the hits of Mario's dair.
Fair enough.

But it's not easy to mash with TSRK (which is the one with invincibility). You have to do the true inputs over and over while mashing, it's not a matter of just holding up and pressing B.

I guess you could argue you could learn the timing and then wouldn't have to mash, but it's not a stretch to say when people break out of dair they are usually just mashing A.
 

BunbUn129

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Fair enough.

But it's not easy to mash with TSRK (which is the one with invincibility). You have to do the true inputs over and over while mashing, it's not a matter of just holding up and pressing B.

I guess you could argue you could learn the timing and then wouldn't have to mash, but it's not a stretch to say when people break out of dair they are usually just mashing A.
I'm not sure if the timing matters because buffering is a thing.
 

EternalFlare

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I'm not sure if the timing matters because buffering is a thing.
Does buffering occur if you are trapped in hitstun in this game?

I know much like Brawl, you can buffer almost any action during the ending frames of your previous action. But during hitstun would your move register during it or right after it? I believe buffering during hitstun still worked in Brawl, not sure if Smash 4 is exactly the same.

In Street Fighter since 4, you can totally buffer while in block stun making mashing out command special moves fairly easy.

Edit:

I had another thought, if you try to buffer while getting hit by multiple hitting moves, wouldn't that just register as SDI?

At any rate I agree Mario's dair is mangeable for Ryu either way if he can just get out of it. But the other aspects of the MU are still enough to make it in Mario's favour. Nowhere near his worst matchup but I don't think it's even.
 
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ARGHETH

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Here's a...different sort of tier list on Reddit.
Basically, it's about what characters are most controversial on tier lists.


Also, 6wx's
 

Emblem Lord

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Tier list 2.0 when?

Games almost been out for 2 years and theres only one 'official' tier list :/

Melee had 7 tier lists within a similar timeframe and Brawl had 4 before it was 2 years old. Come on guys, this game is WAY more dynamic than that :/

-----

also time to lolrant

6 months ago: 'Ryu doesnt need top 8 results at majors to be a top tier character' 'hes still being developed, other characters have had [time since game was released - ryu release date] more days experience'.

Today: 'Ryu doesnt need top 8 results at majors to be a top tier character' 'hes still being developed, other characters have had [time since game was released - ryu release date] more days experience'.

6 months from now: 'Ryu doesnt need top 8 results at majors to be a top tier character' 'hes still being developed, other characters have had [time since game was released - ryu release date] more days experience'.

Ryu is good but he will never be top tier, the goalposts are ALWAYS moving with this character.

But the BEST part is that the same people who say 'you care too much about results, character potential and theory are whats important' turn around and go 'yeah well trela beat Zero in friendlies with Ryu this one time'. I MEAN SERIOUSLY LOL THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENS.
Best part about this is the people that say **** like this are people who dont play Ryu.

Like...I do not ****ing get it at all.
 

EternalFlare

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Tier list 2.0 when?

Games almost been out for 2 years and theres only one 'official' tier list :/

Melee had 7 tier lists within a similar timeframe and Brawl had 4 before it was 2 years old. Come on guys, this game is WAY more dynamic than that :/

-----

also time to lolrant

6 months ago: 'Ryu doesnt need top 8 results at majors to be a top tier character' 'hes still being developed, other characters have had [time since game was released - ryu release date] more days experience'.

Today: 'Ryu doesnt need top 8 results at majors to be a top tier character' 'hes still being developed, other characters have had [time since game was released - ryu release date] more days experience'.

6 months from now: 'Ryu doesnt need top 8 results at majors to be a top tier character' 'hes still being developed, other characters have had [time since game was released - ryu release date] more days experience'.

Ryu is good but he will never be top tier, the goalposts are ALWAYS moving with this character.

But the BEST part is that the same people who say 'you care too much about results, character potential and theory are whats important' turn around and go 'yeah well trela beat Zero in friendlies with Ryu this one time'. I MEAN SERIOUSLY LOL THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENS.
When it comes to tier lists Smash 4 reminds me a lot of Project M. Both games are fairly balanced compared to other Smash titles and used to get regular patches. These factors combined is why people are reluctant to make tier lists. When more than half the cast isn't irrelevant, it's extremely hard to create a whole tier list the majority would agree on.

Anyway regarding Ryu, if he was really top 3 I believe we would have seen results by now. You could certainly point out examples like Melee Fox which took several years to flourish. But the difference is this is no longer the stone age. Information is both rampant and very easy to access, any average joe can look up everything they need to know about optimizing Ryu.

Ryu isn't bad, he's still a solid character but I think at least 10 other characters are significantly better in this game. He doesn't have the tools to deal with all kinds of playstyles. He gets camped/zoned out.

I know of a Ness main in Canada (Timmy) who plays this MU all the time and thinks we win it, slightly.

I'd link his explanation of it, but I can only find his post from almost a year back and it's got some outdated concepts (I know he still thinks we win it now though). On any mid-level Fox or higher Ness is usually safer going for a DJ AD to get out of Fox's Utilt string (which isn't hard to do because we don't have to time it yay).

Fox does pseudo-camp Ness with lasers, but it's weird and Ness responds by going into that mid-range zone where Fox feels like he has to do something. Most common approaches being run up --> Grab / DA, FH Dair, SH Tomahawk into things or FH jump away, Ness has options to deal with all of this even if his mobility isn't king. Sometimes illusion to reset, but I feel that's more of a mix-up. Fox also has PP tilts which are harder to work with because they increase the likelihood of forcing Ness into a guessing game of shield but then getting grabbed, which isn't the worst thing in the world but it's probably worse than other characters if Fox stays grounded (Ness is only easy to juggle if you stay grounded, this applies to most characters actually). This might be why SV is probably a better pick than FD because then Ness doesn't have to play that guessing game as hard. I'm used to a 1-stage ban ruleset these days, so that may be where our opinions differ.

The issue with playing lame is, that weird mid-range distance where doing anything can get you punished but only some characters actually have tools to consistently deal with that situation (like Sonic). I think this is the reason why top players don't do it like you suggest and probably doesn't work as well as you imagine.

It's a weird MU for both characters because they both play in ways they don't usually play. In practice most Foxes do end up rushing in and anything goes (it's a lot of yomi and player v player in those situations).

I've heard this MU thrown around as 55:45 and 50:50 before. Mobility is huge but it plays its part as well just like any other tool. I don't think Ness is crippled in the neutral like you assume, although I do think Fox has more options there. And when Ness puts Fox in disadvantage / offstage, hunting season is open. He's one of those characters who doesn't exploit our recovery hard and has his recovery exploited hard.
I don't see how Fox camps Ness with lasers at all. At full screen spamming lasers is a free heal for Ness so that's hardly going to convince him to approach. At mid range or closer it's too risky to throw out lasers given there's no way to make them lagless in this game.

Granted Fox can juggle Ness forever given he lacks of a momentum shift move like better characters have...that's probably the biggest issue with the matchup. Still I agree he does better versus Fox than other top tiers that can legitimately camp him or destroy his recovery.
 
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Emblem Lord

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I can't think of a single example in any Smash game or traditional fighter of a character that was perceived as top tier without results at the highest level. It's one thing if a game just came out. But 2 years later in the age of information (allowing players to get really good, really fast unlike before), I'm rather skeptical of a character being amazing if they don't have results. At that point all you have is theory crafting which anyone can do. For instance: Ganon is top tier. We just need a player that has the best reads on the planet to showcase this.

Good players are biased with their mains just like the rest of us. They aren't some unfathomable source of information.
LI Joe for instance who tweeted this, claims Nash is only top 5 despite 3 of the top 5 at Evo being Nash players (including himself) in a 5000 person tournament. Nash has fantastic results in general both in America and especially Japan (who has a much stronger SF scene) where he recently took yet another big tournament.

In Smash it's no different. Anti/Ally claimed Mario wasn't even top 8 for the longest time, M2K said Cloud isn't top 5, Zero said Diddy and Sheik aren't top 5 etc. Top players consistently underrate their characters especially if they are getting great results.

Which makes sense, these tend to be the most dedicated players and naturally want people to think the character has as little to do with their success as possible. Plus they obviously don't want their mains nerfed.

Anyway I think Ryu is the character in Smash 4 that people claim is easily top 3 despite lacklustre results and clear glaring flaws. His neutral game is just not on level of Diddy, Sheik, Sonic, Mario etc. and people assume his punish game makes up for this, as if he can just get in for free. As if he doesn't just get camped out hard if the opponent just respects him. And no amount of combo/confirm optimizations is going to fix these issues. I just can't see him ever consistently being top 8 at majors, he relies too heavily on the opponent making big mistakes.
Homie wtf?

Just last week you were trying to convince me that Ryu still had potential and could be top tier.

Have you finally accepted reality?

That GOOD match-ups vs a majority of the cast = top tier and not some magical untapped well of potential?
 

EternalFlare

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Homie wtf?

Just last week you were trying to convince me that Ryu still had potential and could be top tier.

Have you finally accepted reality?

That GOOD match-ups vs a majority of the cast = top tier and not some magical untapped well of potential?
Last week I was agreeing with you that he's not top 10 as of now.

At best I can see him being top 8 but not currently in the meta. He arguably doesn't even have results to justify top 12 yet.

Technically untapped potential could mean better matchups versus top tiers so that's not mutually exclusive. But unfortunately most of Ryu's potential seems to be in execution and combos/confirms as far as I can see. Not so much in the neutral game which is much more important.
 
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Emblem Lord

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His neutral is chained down by SPECIFIC limiters Nintendo placed on him INTENTIONALLY.

He has a 40% fast fall modifier while everyone else has a 60% modifier barring Link.

Sakurai and his team knew exactly what they were doing.
 

EternalFlare

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Random question: who has the better Dtilt, Diddy or mewtwo?
Easily Diddy. It's arguably top 3 in terms of kill confirm moves. It's safe on block when spaced and has low cooldown (making it fairly safe on whiff as well compared to other kill confirms).

Mewtwo's can lead to combos at lower percents but won't true combo into a kill move at kill percents. It has better range(?) but the reward for landing it is just not as high.
 
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Ilikebugs

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His neutral is chained down by SPECIFIC limiters Nintendo placed on him INTENTIONALLY.

He has a 40% fast fall modifier while everyone else has a 60% modifier barring Link.

Sakurai and his team knew exactly what they were doing.
Roy has a 61.11% fastfall modifier. He does happen to be bottom tier though... Does a faster fast fall modifier hurt you in any way?
 

Ffamran

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Roy has a 61.11% fastfall modifier. He does happen to be bottom tier though... Does a faster fast fall modifier hurt you in any way?
Yes? Still dependent on the fall speed, especially in Melee where there were characters with fall speeds that exceeded 3 and having them have a +50% fall speed increase while fast falling would be stupid. For example, in Melee, Falco's fall speed only goes up to 3.5 when fast falling, a 12.9% increase. Melee Falco with a fall speed of 3.1 having it increased by 60% like Smash 4's majority would end up with a 4.96 fall speed. Try to picture what would happen. We being human, are prone to mistakes. If Melee Falco had a 60% increase and accidentally pressed down off-stage for whatever reason, he would probably SD faster than you can say, "Tatsumaki".

Now, take someone like Brawl and Smash 4 Jigglypuff who has a fall speed of 0.98. Increase it by something stupid... 256%. It would go up to 3.4888. Crazy, right? You'll have to factor in gravity; in Brawl Jigglypuff's gravity is 0.05056 while in Smash 4, it's 0.05309. It'll probably take some time before Jiggles can reach that speed compared to Melee Falco with his 0.17 gravity, but could help with her being able to dip under while in the air.

Pretty much anything can be bad and good. Wolf in Brawl while a good character, had the lowest fast fall increase in Brawl: 5.556%, making his 1.8 fall speed only go up to 1.9 which is kind of unusual for a Star Fox character to not have a high fast fall. The only character to top this is Young Link's going up by 3.3%; Young Link's fall speed is 2.13 and only goes up to 2.2, a 0.07 increase. Anyway, in these cases, their fast falls weren't really useful. For Ryu, it's not as bad since his increase is at least above 10%, but Ryu can't drop down as quickly to do whatever whether it's for empty jumps and hops or jump-in aerials. At the same time, it mirrors how jumps work in Street Fighter.

Part of me really wonders what it would be like if both Falco and Fox's fast falls matched their Melee fast falls. Fox comes the closest clocking at 3.28 to his Melee 3.4, but I wonder what it would be like if Falco's fast fall was 3.5. Fox would only need about a 65.8536585366% increase to match that and it kind of wouldn't really matter. Falco would need a 94.4444444444% increase.

Links: SSBwiki's page on fast fall: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Fast_fall.
SSBwiki's page on gravity: http://www.ssbwiki.com/gravity.
 
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Dream Cancel

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Last week I was agreeing with you that he's not top 10 as of now.

At best I can see him being top 8 but not currently in the meta. He arguably doesn't even have results to justify top 12 yet.
We have Das Koopa Das Koopa results thread for a reason. (Top 8 weighted results as of Aug 1st)

1) Sheik: 208
2) Diddy Kong: 192.5
3) Cloud: 175.5
4) Sonic: 133
5) Rosalina & Luma: 123.5
6) Mario: 111
7) Fox: 108.5
8) Zero Suit Samus: 98.5
9) Bayonetta: 74
10) Ryu 62.5
11) Toon Link: 59
12) Mewtwo 51

Edit: Greninja'd.
 
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