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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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I'm surprised no one reported on this in this thread. This was Spanish's biggest smash tournament and it was won by the same Bayonetta player that instigated the discussion for the ban to his character. So congratulations to him for winning with her after those nerfs.


1st: Rydle :4bayonetta:

2nd: Robo~Luigi :4rob::4cloud:

3rd: Greward :4megaman::4bowser:

4th: Pefo :4sonic:

5th: Marcbri :4diddy:

5th: SefiCompacto :rosalina:

7th: MonsterVL :4sheik::4tlink::4wario:

7th: Slay :4bayonetta::4tlink::4sheik:

Das Koopa Das Koopa What tournament does this qualify as?
 
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Das Koopa

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Weekend results + two tournies from a while back courtesy of @Meru. and @freeziebeatz

1st: MKLeo :4marth:
2nd: Serge :4cloud2:, :4lucario::4feroy::4greninja:
3rd: Hyuga :4tlink:
4th: Javi :4sheik:,:4ness:
5th: Flama :4miigun:, :4mario:
5th: DChag :4bayonetta:
7th: BryanZ :4diddy:,:4sheik:
7th: Klein :4ryu:
9th: Elvis Park :4fox:
9th: 4NG :rosalina:
9th: CloudY :4cloud2:
9th: YoRCH :4falco:
13th: Richy :4metaknight:
13th: D-artik :4fox:
13th: Richi :4lucario:
13th: Dano :substitute:

1st: Shuton :4olimar:
2nd: Masashi :4cloud2:
3rd: HIDE :4sonic:, :4diddy:
4th: Meru :4peach:
5th: Suinoko :4diddy:
5th: Kie :4peach:
7th: Mattsun :4cloud2:
7th: Ri-ma :4tlink:
9th: Nanchan :4mario:,:4metaknight:
9th: Beji :4pacman:
9th: Sushi :4mewtwo:
9th: Kenkenpa :4rob:
13th: Woolley :4olimar:
13th: Zoma :4greninja:
13th: myg :4samus:
13th: Banbure :4villager:

1st: Dath :4robinf:
2nd: StaticManny :4sonic:, :4fox::4feroy:
3rd: MVD :4diddy:
4th: Xaltis :rosalina:, :4lucina:
5th: Myran :4olimar:
5th: 8BitMan :4rob:
7th: TNF|Child :4bayonetta:
7th: Eden :4cloud2:
9th: Purple Guy :4zelda:
9th: Riot :4bayonetta:
9th: Hex :4yoshi:
9th: WormyNugget :4diddy:
13th: Seibrik :4cloud2:
13th: Tremendo Dude :4shulk:
13th: RoguePenguin :4mario:
13th: Prince Ramen :4palutena:

1st: MKLeo :4marth:, :4metaknight::4cloud2:
2nd: Mr. R :4sheik:
3rd: Dabuz :rosalina:, :4olimar:
4th: Wonf :4sonic:, :4bayonetta:
5th: Bedgar :4sheik:
5th: Serge :4lucario:, :4cloud2::4charizard:
7th: Regi :4gaw:
7th: Javi :4cloud2:, :4sheik:
9th: SF Richi :4lucario:
9th: Joker :4samus:, :4greninja:
9th: Daimy :4fox:
9th: K40Z :4diddy:
13th: SF Salvo :4mewtwo:
13th: Klein :4ryu:
13th: Zomfg :4cloud2:
13th: Question :4sheik:,:4mewtwo:

1st: Komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic::4lucina:
2nd: Shuton :4olimar:
3rd: Taiheta :4lucas:
4th: Choco :4zss:
5th: T :4link:
5th: Hayato. :4tlink:
7th: Kept :4villager:
7th: Tea :4pacman:
9th: Songn :4gaw:, :4cloud2:
9th: Nietono :4diddy:, :4fox:
9th: HIKARU :4dk:, :4bowser:
9th: Shogun :4fox:
13th: Taranito :4ness:
13th: Ikep :4bayonetta:
13th: Gackt :4ness:
13th: Pichi :4falcon:

1st: Rhydle :4bayonetta:
2nd: Robo~Luigi :4rob:, :4cloud2:
3rd: Greward :4bowser:, :4megaman:
4th: Pefo :4sonic:
5th: SefiCompacto :rosalina:
5th: Marcbri :4diddy:
7th: Slay :4bayonetta:, :4sheik: :4tlink:
7th: MVL :4sheik:, :4wario2::4tlink:
9th: AndresFn :4ryu:
9th: Shiro :4samus:
9th: Pepo :4cloud2:
9th: El_Pitika :4fox:, :4palutena:
13th: El_Bardo :4dedede:
13th: Pocafeiner :4villager:
13th: Orfen :4zss:
13th: Adrik :4sheik:

1st: Vinnie :4sheik:
2nd: Falln :rosalina:
3rd: MJG :4villager:, :4tlink::4diddy:
4th: JJROCKETS :4diddy:
5th: Calculus :4bayonetta:
5th: JFK :4yoshi:
7th: Mr. Doom :4yoshi:
7th: Regralht :4yoshi:
9th: Valor :4sonic:*
9th: BestNess :4ness:, :4peach:
9th: Jesus :4mario:
9th: Sofa King :4luigi:
13th: Nero :4bayonetta:
13th: Fabian :4tlink:,:4luigi:
13th: BANG! :4diddy:
13th: A-Fin :4lucas:

*Listed as "DD" on Smash.gg. I was informed that this is actually a Sonic player named Valor who used the name.

1st: Blacktwins :4cloud2:, :4mario::4fox::4lucario:
2nd: SuperGirlKels :4sonic:
3rd: Holy :4rob:
4th: Deathorse :4mewtwo:
5th: JPeds :4diddy:
5th: DarkAura :4greninja:
7th: Venom :4ryu:
7th: QB :4metaknight:
9th: BreaD :4zss:
9th: DooM :4greninja:, :4rob:
9th: Killion :4ryu:
9th: Darkwolf :4shulk:
13th: Duntson :4pikachu:
13th: Atlas :4ness:
13th: Kurage :4shulk:
13th: Saber :substitute:
 
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arbustopachon

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Zard does also have decent matchups against Luigi and Dk.
I could sorta see him eventually working as a niche secondary in certain situations.
 

Mr. Johan

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People underrated Charizard for the longest time because no one ever played him for some reason.

Once people do people will start to realize that Zard is functionally the best superheavy in the game, and only isn't so because Bowser and DK kill with grab combos.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
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Jan 26, 2008
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Baton Rouge, LA
Just popping in here to ask: how is Rosalina not mobile? At worst, she's average in everything, but fall speed where she's below, a floaty, and air acceleration where she's queen alongside queens Jigglypuff and Peach and super fighting butler robot Mega Man. Also, jump height where she's like third or fourth... Anyway, Rosalina's is definitely mobile, especially in the air where she boasts pretty average air speed with high air acceleration to move about while on the ground, she's slightly above average with her run speed. Maybe it's because she's big and it doesn't seem like she's moving fast, maybe it's because Rosalina players tend to not run around with her much, maybe it's because fellow glide-runners Cloud, Charizard, Meta Knight, Mewtwo -- definitely post-patch for this rabbit-thing --, and Palutena that she seems slower, or maybe it's something else.

For Ryu... yeah, pretty much outside of his run speed. If you consider Ryu's run speed which is average as an "exception", then add in Bayonetta and Mario. Bayonetta's iffy, but I doubt she's any lower than (high) mid-tier. Anyway, Bayonetta's only really mobile through her fall speed, she's fast faller, and run speed which is average, tied with Mario and Ryu. Air speed slightly below average if you consider 1 to be average and not 1.15, Mario's air speed which is more like above-average in Smash 4, but she's also got good air acceleration. What really makes her move is her burst movement options, Afterburner Kick and Heel Slide for horizontal and Witch Twist for extra vertical movement. Mario at this point being called slow or whatever compared to other top tiers is kind of... silly. Dude's Mr. Average and in this game, he's more like Mr. Not-Average. He's not the I kind of hit hard, but I kind of hit weak too like he was in previous games; Mario's pretty much Ken who doesn't hit as hard as Ryu, but hits fast and pressures hard. He's not average in mobility, especially in the air; Mario's air speed seems more like above-average or even high than average and his run speed would be considered above-average in previous games, but for the sake of things, let's consider 1.6 to be average run speed in Smash 4.

On horizontal mobility in general, there's just a really large gap between who's fast and who's slow in run speed -- with and without factoring in Sonic who you could consider as an outlier because of the jump from first to second-fastest -- and walk speed. With run speed, it's kind of simple. The fastest is 3.5 with Sonic or 2.32 with Captain Falcon and the slowest is 1.15, Robin. There are characters who walk as fast or even faster than the slower runners. It's like the fastest walkers are jogging and the slowest runners are jogging... I remember posting about this where if you start at the lowest run speed, there are 27 characters who walk as fast or faster than Robin and by the time you get up to the fastest walkers, 2, Lucina and Marth, of them match the 1.5 crew of runners which isn't as insane, but still pretty bad that your run speed is not even faster than a few characters' walk speed. I feel like run speed and even walk speed have too low of a floor where run speed should probably have a floor of 1.4 or at least 1.3 rather than 1.15. At 1.4, only 6 characters would walk as fast or faster; at 1.3, only 9 would walk as fast or faster. Would it really make a difference? Maybe not, but it would be a quality of life change. Take Ganondorf. Would a run speed of 1.3 or his Melee run speed of 1.35 really break him? No. He's still slow, but not as slow. Now, Ganondorf with a run speed of 1.6 or something stupid like a run speed of 1.9. Okay, that's when King of Evil became Demigod of Evil. Crank it up to 3.5 and he'd definitely be a God of Evil.

Speeds around 1.6 to 1.5 aren't really that noticeable in difference. You could even extend it to 1.45. It's when you get lower and lower or faster and faster that things do make a difference, especially since the characters who have fast run speeds aren't as clustered together compared to the ones who have slower run speeds. There's 1 in the 3.5 range, 1 in the 2.3 range, 1 in 2.2 range, 2 in the 2.1 range, 4 in the 2.0 range, 3 in the 1.9 range, 4 in the 1.8 range, and 6 in the 1.7 range. For average, there's 8 in the 1.60 range. Going down, there's 12 in the 1.5 range, 7 in the 1.4 range, 4 in the 1.3 range, 2 in the 1.2 range, and 2 in the 1.1 range.

I guess the other thing is that compared to other games, sustained movement isn't as fast as in Smash. When you see characters move in games like The King of Fighters, Street Fighter, Tekken, etc., even with runs which is way more commital, they aren't like in Smash where you have Captain Falcon, Cloud, Sheik, or Yoshi blazing on through or even Mario running in. Most of them are done through walking which is also slower or dashing which... is kind of the same, but not really since nobody has a dash like SFV Nash's not even Fox or Little Mac.


Here it is repeated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3pQ0WB2NaM. Could you imagine someone with this kind of dash in Smash?
Rosalina I feel is in an unusual position where her individual movement stats (run speed, air accel, jump height) aren't bad, but they don't really come together in a way to make her feel mobile. Perhaps it's just me, but she feels floaty in almost everything she does. She does feel very responsive, which is a nice quality to have, but I still wouldn't describe her as particularly noteworthy in terms of mobility. Part of it is her fall speed; she's floaty as hell, so once she jumps she's not coming down for a while. And yes, her general playstyle doesn't do her any favors in this regard.
 
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blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
People underrated Charizard for the longest time because no one ever played him for some reason.

Once people do people will start to realize that Zard is functionally the best superheavy in the game, and only isn't so because Bowser and DK kill with grab combos.
You can't contradict yourself like that. functionally as of right now both theory and results dictate that dk and bowser are better than zard. dk grab combos function better than any part of zard's kick as far as I know.
 

PJB

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 14, 2014
Messages
70
Shady Shaymin Shady Shaymin thanks for the support lol

In other news, is there a more fun player to watch right now than MK Leo? I swear he makes me doubt everything I thought I knew about MK
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
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I've heard one or two Zards that get results say they think he is the best heavy weight.

The issue is his results don't line up with these claims right now.

Zard does have some of the better moves in the game in his kit, Usmash is a disgustingly good move. But it's Zard in the end.
 

epicnights

Smash Apprentice
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epicnights
MK Leo has the most consistent movement tech I've ever seen. foxtrot in to immediate PP back, foxtrot pivot F-smashes and f-tilts, PP rolls, this man is so insanely talented on the stick.
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
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Oh, nice to see Suinoko on these results, haven't seen anything from him since Brawl (and maybe a little bit at the start of the Smash3DS days).

Japan being pretty interesting once again, though most of these results are pretty cool to see. So many characters doing well.

I've seen Lucas as a good Mid Tier character since I had to face Clade who surprised me at Beast. Lucas is a pretty scary opponent to face with his grab-game, good CQC (because of his fast jab, zair, not too laggy and long ranged tether grab ..) and decent zoning game (PKFire, zair).

I'm happy Palutena is finally doing well after I put her in my Mid Tier (because of playing against good Palus) a long time ago. While I might put her a bit lower nowadays it's nice to see people being exposed to her strenghts and TLTC, Prince Ramen, etc. doing work with her! She's definietly not as bad of a character as almost everyone seemed to think.
 
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Shady Shaymin

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I really want to see what's so great about Sky's yoshi because whenever someone places yoshi higher than currently perceived, Sky is their reasoning. Do we have any footage at all or know anything about his playstyle?
 

Fenny

Smash Ace
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
584
I really want to see what's so great about Sky's yoshi because whenever someone places yoshi higher than currently perceived, Sky is their reasoning. Do we have any footage at all or know anything about his playstyle?
Sky literally has different levels of Yoshi depending on what colour palette he chooses
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
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MKLeo is only 14? 15 years old? The only thing his game really needs is some more high level experience, and he has a lot of time to develop that.

:150:
 

Wintermelon43

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
2,767
I really want to see what's so great about Sky's yoshi because whenever someone places yoshi higher than currently perceived, Sky is their reasoning. Do we have any footage at all or know anything about his playstyle?
Hello. Welcome to the year 2016.

Back in your old time during early 2015, Sky was considered one of the best Yoshis due to getting 49th at Apex. However, he is not considered a notable Yoshi (Or smash 4) player anymore. Now in 2016, The Wall is considered the best Yoshi followed by Raptor. These two Yoshis have gotten some good results, such as 48th at Genesis 3 and 17th at Pound 2016. Whereas Sky has done absoluty nothing. If you have any more questions about this future, just let us know!

Oh, and as I'm sure you'll be happy to hear, Diddy's hoo-hah has been removed.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
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Sky's MU chart strikes me as: "Yoshi beats anybody I haven't had high level experience with"

Honestly not very legitimate. I doubt Yoshi's jump armour let's him "surpass neutral"

:150:
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
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Messages
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Sky's MU chart strikes me as: "Yoshi beats anybody I haven't had high level experience with"

Honestly not very legitimate. I doubt Yoshi's jump armour let's him "surpass neutral"

:150:
Considering that in order to use that jump armor, he has to...you know, double jump. Which puts him above the opponent, not generally a good place to be. And if he defends himself with an aerial or airdodge he loses the armor. And now he's missing his double jump because he used it to get the armor in the first place.

Sometimes I think the sheer size of Yoshi's double jump does more to protect him than the armor attached to it.
 
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Jaguar360

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1st: Shuton :4olimar:
2nd: Masashi :4cloud2:
3rd: HIDE :4sonic:, :4diddy:
4th: Meru :4peach:
5th: Suinoko :4diddy:
5th: Kie :4peach:
7th: Mattsun :4cloud2:
7th: Ri-ma :4tlink:
9th: Nanchan :4mario:,:4metaknight:
9th: Beji :4pacman:
9th: Sushi :4mewtwo:
9th: Kenkenpa :4rob:
13th: Woolley :4olimar:
13th: Zoma :4greninja:
13th: myg :4samus:
13th: Banbure :4villager:
Is that Zoma as in the Melee Mewtwo player or a different one?

And yeah, that Sky Williams Yoshi matchup chart is poorly made imo. You cannot just put certain players' characters into your matchup chart and say that other characters are free just because you haven't played vs. good ones. I'd really love to see if his Yoshi is all that it's cracked up to be.
 

PND

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Back in the 613
Weekend results + two tournies from a while back courtesy of @Meru. and @freeziebeatz

1st: Blacktwins :4cloud2:, :4mario::4fox::4lucario:
2nd: SuperGirlKels :4sonic:
3rd: Holy :4rob:
4th: Deathorse :4mewtwo:
5th: JPeds :4diddy:
5th: DarkAura :4greninja:
7th: Venom :4ryu:
7th: QB :4metaknight:
9th: BreaD :4zss:
9th: DooM :4greninja:, :4rob:
9th: Killion :4ryu:
9th: Darkwolf :4shulk:
13th: Duntson :4pikachu:
13th: Atlas :4ness:
13th: Kurage :4shulk:
13th: Saber :substitute:
Saber used Metaknight
 

TheGoodGuava

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People underrated Charizard for the longest time because no one ever played him for some reason.

Once people do people will start to realize that Zard is functionally the best superheavy in the game, and only isn't so because Bowser and DK kill with grab combos.
Its notable that beats/goes even with every other super heavy except DDD
He also does well against fire emblem characters in general, Bayonetta, Cloud, Mario, Luigi, Lucario, and Mewtwo, and Ness because they all allow him to abuse his main strengths well

Imo of the superheavies he has the best neutral with strong pokes, the best mobility, a frame 4 option that does 12%, and a threatening grab

He also has one of, if not the best disadvantage state out of the heavies. He has the fastest airdodge of all the superheavies being the only one with a 3 frame airdodge, a frame 4 super armor combo breaker in up b with a huge threat to kill, 2 midair jumps, the ability to burst all the way across the stage and escape situations, rock smash/dair/nair for landing, and a strong recovery

If they were to give him a grab kill confirm he could possibly be the best super heavy in smash history
 

dakotaisgreat

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Its notable that beats/goes even with every other super heavy except DDD
He also does well against fire emblem characters in general, Bayonetta, Cloud, Mario, Luigi, Lucario, and Mewtwo, and Ness because they all allow him to abuse his main strengths well

Imo of the superheavies he has the best neutral with strong pokes, the best mobility, a frame 4 option that does 12%, and a threatening grab

He also has one of, if not the best disadvantage state out of the heavies. He has the fastest airdodge of all the superheavies being the only one with a 3 frame airdodge, a frame 4 super armor combo breaker in up b with a huge threat to kill, 2 midair jumps, the ability to burst all the way across the stage and escape situations, rock smash/dair/nair for landing, and a strong recovery

If they were to give him a grab kill confirm he could possibly be the best super heavy in smash history
His up throw is arguably the best kill throw in the game already. It's stronger than Mewtwos up throw, benefits from platforms on dreamland, battlefield, duck hunt, etc, and due to charizards weight he has more rage more often then Ness and Mewtwo.This is in addition to Charizard having a stronger pummel then the both of them.

I won't say its better than Ness' Backthrow, but it is signifigantly better than Mewtwos up throw and should at the very least be on par with Ness' backthrow. It can kill insanely early on Dreamlands middle platform and god help you if you get grabbed under the top brand of Duck Hunt's tree.
 
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arbustopachon

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 3, 2016
Messages
282
Location
Uruguay
Zards u-throw kills later than M2's when DI'ed properly. Sure it does kills earlier on stages with platforms, which is why people will generally not take Zard to those stages.
 

EternalFlare

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Messages
306
Zards u-throw kills later than M2's when DI'ed properly. Sure it does kills earlier on stages with platforms, which is why people will generally not take Zard to those stages.
This.

Plus Ness's backthrow is not better than Mewtwo's up throw. Ness's backthrow will only kill significantly earlier if you're near the edge and potentially much later if you are not.

Also since it has a much higher BKB, Mewtwo's kill throw benefits much moreso with rage than with Ness or Charizard (72 vs 15 and 50).
 

Yikarur

Smash Master
Joined
May 29, 2007
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4,595
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Germany
Mewtwos upthrow is the very best kill throw in the game.
- It kills from everywhere on the stage in the same manner.
- Can hardly be DI't (90°)
- Has absurd high base knockback, making it exceptional stronger with rage and other multipliers.

Charizards upthrow would be stronger by stats alone most likely, but the angle kills it. Being able to kill slightly earlier in situational scenarios doesn't make it better.

And Charizard "having more rage" is not necessarily true. Mewtwo has the far superior disadvantage state and a very strong spacing and zohning game. Generally Mewtwo can avoid getting killed pretty well. Mewtwo profiting from rage is very likely. They are not that far apart.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Zards u-throw kills later than M2's when DI'ed properly. Sure it does kills earlier on stages with platforms, which is why people will generally not take Zard to those stages.
Yeah all of this.

Zard's is only better if a platform is above him.

Otherwise on FD or anytime without one M2's is better.

Its notable that beats/goes even with every other super heavy except DDD
He also does well against fire emblem characters in general, Bayonetta, Cloud, Mario, Luigi, Lucario, and Mewtwo, and Ness because they all allow him to abuse his main strengths well

Imo of the superheavies he has the best neutral with strong pokes, the best mobility, a frame 4 option that does 12%, and a threatening grab

He also has one of, if not the best disadvantage state out of the heavies. He has the fastest airdodge of all the superheavies being the only one with a 3 frame airdodge, a frame 4 super armor combo breaker in up b with a huge threat to kill, 2 midair jumps, the ability to burst all the way across the stage and escape situations, rock smash/dair/nair for landing, and a strong recovery

If they were to give him a grab kill confirm he could possibly be the best super heavy in smash history
Ehhh....if Snake counts then even without it I don't think he would be.
 

EternalFlare

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Messages
306
Speaking of vertical kills who would you guys say has the best up Smash in the game? Things that should be considered:

1. Hitbox
2. Cooldown
3. Kill power
4. Practical use in competitive play

I think it's a tossup between Olimar (purple upSmash), Mario, Fox or Rosalina.

Overall I'm leaning towards Olimar. It has the highest kill power of the 4 by far + benefits the most from rage (highest BKB) outside of Rosalina (but that's only with the Luma hit). To get an idea of how powerful it is, an Olimar at 100% can KO midweights with a purple up Smash at around 80 or lower. And still sub 100 without rage.

Of course it doesn't matter how powerful it is if he can't land it. But Olimar's playstyle forces most characters to commit harder than he does inevitably creating opportunities for an up Smash punish.

Also Olimar's purple up Smash is only -24 on block with significant shield pushback. That means most characters would have to drop their shield (7 frames) and run up (character dependent but roughly 12 frames on average). This leaves only around 5 frames for a move to punish with which means usually they are not going to get more than a dash attack/dash grab punish. And that's assuming they were near frame perfect (not super hard in a game with buffering but still).
 
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EternalFlare

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Messages
306
best Usmash? Luigi if going by the move alone. Mario if adding in what else the character has.
I completely forgot about Luigi.

His is only -20 on block (same as Mario), even safer than Olimar's. Plus much better hitbox. Though he doesn't force people to commit as hard as Olimar does and obviously his isn't nearly as strong.

But yeah I can definitely see him being a contender.

I guess it depends on the situation too. If you're just throwing it out hoping it will hit, then yeah Luigi/Mario's is way better. But as a pure punish Olimar easily takes the cake.
 
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blackghost

Smash Champion
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Its notable that beats/goes even with every other super heavy except DDD
He also does well against fire emblem characters in general, Bayonetta, Cloud, Mario, Luigi, Lucario, and Mewtwo, and Ness because they all allow him to abuse his main strengths well

Imo of the superheavies he has the best neutral with strong pokes, the best mobility, a frame 4 option that does 12%, and a threatening grab

He also has one of, if not the best disadvantage state out of the heavies. He has the fastest airdodge of all the superheavies being the only one with a 3 frame airdodge, a frame 4 super armor combo breaker in up b with a huge threat to kill, 2 midair jumps, the ability to burst all the way across the stage and escape situations, rock smash/dair/nair for landing, and a strong recovery

If they were to give him a grab kill confirm he could possibly be the best super heavy in smash history
ok i'll bite. how and what does charizard do to have a good MU vs bayo, mario, mewtwo and ness? those characters have vatious playstyles and strengths and weaknesses. vary in neutral strengths and varying degrees of an efective projectile. i'm going to need some evidence or at least some theorycraft behind that.
as for the spain tournament i'm glad a bayo won that region. even if itsjust spite after their ban nonsense. has europe proved itself to be on equal footing with n. america or mexico or canada yet? as far as i can tell its mr. R and no one else.
 
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|RK|

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I completely forgot about Luigi.

His is only -20 on block (same as Mario), even safer than Olimar's. Plus much better hitbox. Though he doesn't force people to commit as hard as Olimar does and obviously his isn't nearly as strong.

But yeah I can definitely see him being a contender.

I guess it depends on the situation too. If you're just throwing it out hoping it will hit, then yeah Luigi/Mario's is way better. But as a pure punish Olimar easily takes the cake.
Kirby's is stronger than most. Probably stronger than Olimar's, too. One frame safer on shield, invincibility the whole way through, and great push back. Frame 14 though :/
 

zblaqk

Smash Apprentice
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177
Samus seems to be doing better lately, 9th, 13th etc in rather larger tournaments. Not bad, not bad.
 

EternalFlare

Smash Journeyman
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Kirby's is stronger than most. Probably stronger than Olimar's, too. One frame safer on shield, invincibility the whole way through, and great push back. Frame 14 though :/
I believe Olimar's is stronger based off my testing (by about 7 percent. Which might be flawed considering the CPU doesn't DI optimally. Though no one's going to DI perfectly every-time anyway.

Plus it benefits a lot more from rage (Kirby's only has 20 BKB compared to Olimar's 50).
 
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juddy96

Smash Lord
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Is that Zoma as in the Melee Mewtwo player or a different one?

And yeah, that Sky Williams Yoshi matchup chart is poorly made imo. You cannot just put certain players' characters into your matchup chart and say that other characters are free just because you haven't played vs. good ones. I'd really love to see if his Yoshi is all that it's cracked up to be.
Same Zoma
 

EternalFlare

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 13, 2015
Messages
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Game and watch's up smash is really good and no one seems to talk about it.
It has startup invincibility and is pretty strong (about as strong as Kirby's but stronger with rage). It's also possibly the best non-charged Up Smash attack on shield being only -3 on block (so +4 if they drop shield).

However it's flaw is that it has an enormous 24 frames of startup making it impossible to use in most punish situations. It's only really good as a hard read and GnW has to hope they run into it. Whereas Olimar's (which is stronger) can be used both as a hard read and in common punish situations.

It's still a pretty great move overall, I'd put it in top 10 up Smashes but idk about top 5.
 
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HoSmash4

Smash Ace
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Messages
688
What makes Mewtwo's up throw really good is the fact its coupled with a killing aerial (Fair), a long lasting big hitbox upsmash to catch any landing/jump/tall character as well as being on a character as fast as Sheik.

Ness is almost as good but with a worse airdodge and less speed.
 
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