Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[meticulousboy]

At least Peach made it to Top 8, but it's Umeki, so you know. Mid tiers are receiving some spotlight this time around.

 

[Y2Kay]

Some has beaten KEN 3 times now.

I don't know how the man does it.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sonic has a bad record vs Rosalina and ZSS but they're both relatively rare compared to other top tiers so it only starts to hurt him in his appearances in major top 8s

 

[|RK|]

This may not be the thread to ask this question, but does ledge get-up have vulnerability somewhere during the get-up animation (but before the end)? I ask this because I've final cutter spiked people through the stage during their get-up animation too many times now.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Meta game question: do you guys think diddy and sheik has now been fully fleshed out as a character? Have we seen everything they have to offer?

 

[HoSmash4]

Meta game question: do you guys think diddy and sheik has now been fully fleshed out as a character? Have we seen everything they have to offer?

Diddy maybe.
Sheik, nope.

 

[NateMG]

Meta game question: do you guys think diddy and sheik has now been fully fleshed out as a character? Have we seen everything they have to offer?

In my opinion not yet, I feel like we should wait for a few more major tournaments to see if they fully fleshed out as characters, I think its too soon to make that decision, but its just my opinion

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

The only "good" thing about DK is that he has somewhat amazing tilts that can chip on small amounts of damage as he get's bodied and lives forever because he's super heavy until he can grab you and kill you at a stupidly low percent compared to all the neutral wins his opponent has done.

Edit: I do not want this to become another argument for heavies with Hoo Haas to be nerfed. Such discussions are never good.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Meta game question: do you guys think diddy and sheik has now been fully fleshed out as a character? Have we seen everything they have to offer?

Hell no. Sheiks still have setups that need to be used more like bair shield crossups. And diddy is closer to optimization than sheik imo but Diddy item play is still super basic, peanut popgun cancels are rarely used, ledge traps need more labbing imo. I wanna see to level diddys lab more. Maybe one day we'll discover z drop footstool stuff or something.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

This is the second time I've seen "Such and such won a negative matchup one time, I don't think the matchup is that bad" in this thread today.

That isn't how matchups work. Ness can beat Rosalina. It can happen. Doesn't mean that when it does that we should automatically assume a matchup is all the sudden even.

(Not trying to be an *** but I felt like pointing it out.)

I never claimed it's even. But if a matchup is terrible then it should be reflected at top level play. Terrible as in 70-30 or worse which is what people argue for Diddy vs Bayonetta. And yet NOTHING is an indication of this.

I'm sorry, armchair theorizing doesn't hold more weight than actual tournament results.

Matchups are determined by those playing at the highest level who can showcase how much theory can be applied to an actual match.

Otherwise "Bayonetta sux, just SDI everything" should be true and no Bayonetta should ever make it out of pools.

In Smash 4 a top tier doesn't auto-steamroll all mid-low tier characters. People that know anything about either character just assume Bayonetta should get destroyed by Diddy or Sheik. Heck if Pink didn't beat Mr.R at this tourny, people would be going "that's nice but it's lucky he avoided every good Sheik who would have destroyed him!".

Anti, Zinoto, and Dabuz were top 3 at CEO. Zero beat Void and Larry at EVO (and outplaced them in the process). Abadango beat Larry at EVO.
Oh yeah, forgot about Ally, who won EVO.

Stop cherrypicking results in an attempt to argue the players on your list are significantly better than the ones at this tourny when it's just not true. Anti and Zinoto both didn't even make top 32 at Evo. Dabuz got outplaced by Void and tied with Larry. As did Abadango. Mars outplaced Nairo. Ally got 49th at CEO. and Zero got 9th.

The point being that just because your favourite top players weren't there, something doesn't suddenly stop being a major. The top players that were in attendance have shown especially recently, they are on the same level as the ones on your list and some are arguably more consistent and thus better.

If the players are on your list always outplaced the ones that attended this tournament you'd have a point, but that's clearly not the case. Especially when some of them have recently gotten 33rd and 49th at majors meaning there's no guarantee they would even make top 8 let alone ensure Pink couldn't win.

With that said obviously the tournament would be much more stacked with more top players in attendance, but the results can't be ignored regardless.

 

[arbustopachon]

Popping in to say that Sharpy is on cuarter finals on winners side of be smash 2016.
Stream is down right now sadly.
Edit: Stream is back link for anyone interested.

 

[EternalFlare]

A potentially game changing tech has been discovered for Ryu and possibly other characters:

https://mobile.twitter.com/NiKeRuV2/status/757077130715009024

With this Ryu basically gets a psuedo dash dance into up tilt or down tilt. Which incidentally can confirm into TSKR. In other words with this Ryu can dash out of the range of a potential dash attack, dash grab, SH aerial etc, and then dash back in with a whiff punish hit confirm. This might be EXACTLY the neutral/movement tool Ryus have been waiting for. Insane.

And it's very easy to do. Simply dash one way, go into Ryu's turn around animation, dash back the other way and input a tilt. He'll slide forward while doing it.

The only downside is it takes some time to turn around, it's no Melee dash dance. Regardless if you sense your opponent is about to attack with something laggy this might be ideal as it covers multiple options. You don't have to worry about their dash attack beating your short hop or dash grab beating your shield.

I don't know if this is Ryu specific or will work with other characters. If anyone knows feel free to share.

Note I've got this working with all of Ryu's jabs and up tilt/down tilt as well as downSmash. Fsmash might work as well but it's hard to test as I don't have a c-stick.

 

[C0rvus]

That's cool but it seems very telegraphed to me. I could see some potential use in ledge coverage, but honestly it's far from gane changing. Pretty nifty little technique nonetheless.

 

[Jehtt]

This technique has been around for a long time.

 

[EternalFlare]

That's cool but it seems very telegraphed to me. I could see some potential use in ledge coverage, but honestly it's far from gane changing. Pretty nifty little technique nonetheless.

It gives Ryu the ability to whiff punish with sliding tilts. Which might not seem like much for regular characters but Ryu can kill most characters at 85 with no rage off of landing a point blank tilt confirm.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A potentially game changing tech has been discovered for Ryu and possibly other characters:

https://mobile.twitter.com/NiKeRuV2/status/757077130715009024

With this Ryu basically gets a psuedo dash dance into up tilt or down tilt. Which incidentally can confirm into TSKR. In other words with this Ryu can dash out of the range of a potential dash attack, dash grab, SH aerial etc, and then dash back in with a whiff punish hit confirm. This might be EXACTLY the neutral/movement tool Ryus have been waiting for. Insane.

And it's very easy to do. Simply dash one way, go into Ryu's turn around animation, dash back the other way and input a tilt. He'll slide forward while doing it.

The only downside is it takes some time to turn around, it's no Melee dash dance. Regardless if you sense your opponent is about to attack with something laggy this might be ideal as it covers multiple options. You don't have to worry about their dash attack beating your short hop or dash grab beating your shield.

I don't know if this is Ryu specific or will work with other characters. If anyone knows feel free to share.

Note I've got this working with all of Ryu's jabs and up tilt/down tilt as well as downSmash. Fsmash might work as well but it's hard to test as I don't have a c-stick.

This is U-turn and its OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLDDDD

And it works with everyone, some better then others.

 

[EternalFlare]

This technique has been around for a long time.

Interesting. Wonder why you never see it being used. It seems like a very safe low commitment option after all. Unless they hard read it, they aren't going to punish a dash back and during the turn animation you can visually confirm if they threw out something punishable or not and choose to go in at the right time.

This is U-turn and its OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLDDDD

And it works with everyone, some better then others.

Cool. I definitely think certain characters need to start incorporating this into their play in that case. Especially Ryu players. It can give him max punishes in situations where previously he might have only gotten a dash attack or grab and it's very easy to do. No reason not to abuse it.

 

[Illusion.]

Some has beaten KEN 3 times now.

I don't know how the man does it.

What place did Some get? I didn't even see him in top 64...

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's pretty easy to just react too. It is also a mid range option and many of the top tiers simply out button him here.

Diddy for example can just flip jump and nullify this. Sonic can just spin dash. I could keep going, but do you get my point?

It looks strong in a vacuum, but in practice its much harder to get use out of effectively.

As an aside man...you REALLY want Ryu to be a threat don't you? Not saying that's good or bad, but I notice it.

 

[DanGR]

My top 5: ()()

Brackets show no strong preference for the order, though this order represents my current understanding of the characters.

Time continues to show that Rosa's matchups are worse than people think. I don't think she's even a shoe-in for top 5 anymore. She could still be top 5, but I'm doubtful. She loses or goes even with everyone above her, imo.

I think Mewtwo is way under-repped for his strength. I thought Void was the perfect fit for the character, so I'd be excited to see him put more time into the character. Mewtwo's PP options are solid but underutilized at the moment, imo.

 

[EternalFlare]

It's pretty easy to just react too. It is also a mid range option and many of the top tiers simply out button him here.

Diddy for example can just flip jump and nullify this. Sonic can just spin dash. I could keep going, but do you get my point?

It looks strong in a vacuum, but in practice its much harder to get use out of effectively.

As an aside man...you REALLY want Ryu to be a threat don't you? Not saying that's good or bad, but I notice it.

Allow me to clarify. I'm not saying this is a strong option to just constantly throw out for Ryu or that it will work versus all kinds of players/characters. I'm saying this serves as a visual confirm for tilts at bigger ranges than normal. So you dash back, wait to see if they threw out anything, if they did you go in, otherwise you don't. It's like when Diddy throws a banana. He's not expecting it to always hit but he's not in a terrible if it doesn't.

Ryu is one of the most interesting characters in this game imo, I definitely want him to be a threat even though as of now I don't even think he's top 10. I also like Street Fighter a lot (and Ryu was one of my better characters in SF4) so that could be it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He is a threat for sure. He just isn't top ten.

Also funny you mention Diddy as this tech is WAY scarier with him then it is with Ryu due to the mix up between monkey flip grab, regular grab, or dtilt into a confirm. And Diddy can confirm from a max range dtilt unlike Ryu so he doesnt need to sweat his spacing nearly as much.

And to clarify, Ryu is the MOST interesting char in this game. Period.

 

[ARGHETH]

Stop cherrypicking results in an attempt to argue the players on your list are significantly better than the ones at this tourny when it's just not true. Anti and Zinoto both didn't even make top 32 at Evo. Dabuz got outplaced by Void and tied with Larry. As did Abadango. Mars outplaced Nairo. Ally got 49th at CEO. and Zero got 9th.

The point being that just because your favourite top players weren't there, something doesn't suddenly stop being a major. The top players that were in attendance have shown especially recently, they are on the same level as the ones on your list and some are arguably more consistent and thus better.

If the players are on your list always outplaced the ones that attended this tournament you'd have a point, but that's clearly not the case. Especially when some of them have recently gotten 33rd and 49th at majors meaning there's no guarantee they would even make top 8 let alone ensure Pink couldn't win.

You don't think the fact that anyone who won a smash 4 major ever not being here was significant?
There was like 10 of PGR's top 50 players present. Only four/five (Void, Larry Lurr, Mr. R, Marss, maybe Pink Fresh if you think he's that high) of the top 20 was there. I don't know about you, but I'd say that's pretty important.

 

[EternalFlare]

He is a threat for sure. He just isn't top ten.

Also funny you mention Diddy as this tech is WAY scarier with him then it is with Ryu due to the mix up between monkey flip grab, regular grab, or dtilt into a confirm. And Diddy can confirm from a max range dtilt unlike Ryu so he doesnt need to sweat his spacing nearly as much.

And to clarify, Ryu is the MOST interesting char in this game. Period.

I'm probably really biased given my SF background but I definitely agree.

He has so many options, a unique and deep combo/punish game and a very interesting neutral game. I like how he has no real dominating tools in neutral that you can just throw out and rely on, it forces you to think more and use various options given the matchup and situation.

He isn't top 10 (given results or lack of) but maybe one day when a Ryu can really put everything together.

Diddy's downtilt has better range as a kill confirm but you won't be dying at 85 because you got hit by it like with Ryu so at least there's that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm probably really biased given my SF background but I definitely agree.

He has so many options, a unique and deep combo/punish game and a very interesting neutral game. I like how he has no real dominating tools in neutral that you can just throw out and rely on, it forces you to think more and use various options given the matchup and situation.

He isn't top 10 (given results or lack of) but maybe one day when a Ryu can really put everything together.

Diddy's downtilt has better range as a kill confirm but you won't be dying at 85 because you got hit by it like with Ryu so at least there's that.

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Thats not how top tiers in smash works tho... lolol

 

[EternalFlare]

Ignore. I misinterpreted your post.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Thats not how top tiers in smash works tho... lolol

I disagree. Smash top tiers can't just throw out attacks without much thought.

Give me an example.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You gonna argue Sheik or Sonic commit as much as chars lower then them?

Are they mindless? No. But having a strong flow chart with decent reward and fairly low risk is a big part of what makes chars strong in this series.

 

[EternalFlare]

I disagree. Smash top tiers can't just throw out attacks without much thought.

Give me an example.

Diddy's banana, Sheik's fair, Sonic's invincible spin dash.

Not saying you can just throw them out with zero thought but these are dominating low commitment options that work really well in most situations.

 

[R3D3MON]

Baby_Sneak

Mario

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also you said Smash top tiers so Imma just say two words.

Melee Falco

Holla at me

 

[EternalFlare]

Also you said Smash top tiers so Imma just say two words.

Melee Falco

Holla at me

I'd add Jigglypuff for Melee. Most of the cast has no answer for spaced bairs.

And Marth's dash dance game + insane grab range is so good in Melee even when it's 100% known he's fishing for it. top players tend to still get grabbed anyway. A very polarizing option.

Not to mention pretty much all the Brawl top tiers. They had very dominating options that invalidated most of the cast.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik, Diddy, Mewtwo, Rosalina and Fox would be my top 5, in order.

I agree that Sheik has more room to grow than Diddy at this point. The main impulses I see for Diddy Kong's metagame in the future are technical and matchup specific optimizations. Sheik on the other hand sill isn't fully developed - the gap between Void's technical style, Mr r's neutral game and Vinnie's disadvantaged game is bigger than the differences between Zero's and Zinoto's play I feel. The main difference between them seem to be how they tackle certain matchups.

Mewtwo is extremely broken and underdeveloped. Fair and dtilt are much stronger pokes and walling tools than anything Cloud or Marth have to offer but Mewtwo also has Sheik's dash speed, the best KO throw in the game, one of the best projectiles in the game and the best airdodge in the game period. Why more people aren't using this character is beyond me, I think he's the only one left that can legitimately threaten Sheik's/Diddy's top 2 spots at this point. And he's suuuuuu~ch a good secondary character to have ready in your pocket.

I disagree with DanGR that Rosalina's matchups have generally gotten worse over time, they're just less polarizing than they used to be. Sure, she's no longer Fox' worst matchup, she doesn't have as easy a time against Sonic as she used to and her matchup vs Mario isn't completely one-sided anymore. On the other hand though she no longer gets destroyed by ZSS and both Cloud and Sheik have turned out to be even matchup over time. There is the MK hardcounter but beating Sonic, Fox and Mario while going even with Sheik and Diddy easily makes her one of the strongest choices for a tournament main. MK isn't a terribly difficult matchup to cover and I'm of the optinion that everybody - even Sheik and Diddy mains - should have a secondary character anyway if they want to maximize their chances at winning tournaments.

Fox has been doing so well so consistently throughout the whole year, I really can't have Mario above him at this point. @Dabuz has called Fox a character that's "difficult to be consistent with" but Larry is actually the only player left to place outside of a major tournament's top 12 [and whenever he did end up placing 'only' 9th he'd lose to either dabuz or Void]. Fox has also been placed as 4th on @Das Koopa's ranking for about 4 months in a row now. How much more consistent does a character have to perform for such a long period of time to be considered actually 'consistent'? It's also remarkable how many different players have scored for Fox on that ranking - between Larry, SH, Sodrek, Xzax, Megafox, Ksev, NAKAT and Yui - just now at Umebura 24 - there have been so many different player contributing to Fox' strong standing in the current metagame that you can't possible argue that to be all Larry's work.

 

[Phan7om]

Meta game question: do you guys think diddy and sheik has now been fully fleshed out as a character? Have we seen everything they have to offer?

Just gonna put this out there and say its highly unlikely that any character has been completely fleshed out in a meta not even 2 years old. And even if they somehow are, there would be no way for us to know right now.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Diddy's banana, Sheik's fair, Sonic's invincible spin dash.

Not saying you can just throw them out with zero thought but these are dominating low commitment options that work well in most situations.

Sheik's Fair has short range, and it gets punished hard with power shielding (nearly every attack is destroyed by power shielding, so there goes predictable unbeatable options), and sonic's spin dash just branches into worse options off of shield, but you got me on the banana. That tool is just insane. Maybe treat it like a fireball from street fighter where you bait out a bad throw and capitalize on it.

Also you said Smash top tiers so Imma just say two words.

Melee Falco

Holla at me

PS lasers (that's all I got lol idk melee like that bro! Throw brawl, or smash4 at me).

Baby_Sneak

Mario

Range and zoning and spacing.

I'd add Jigglypuff for Melee. Most of the cast has no answer for spaced bairs.

And Marth's dash dance game + insane grab range is so good in Melee even when it's 100% known he's fishing for it. top players tend to still get grabbed anyway. A very polarizing option.

Not to mention pretty much all the Brawl top tiers. They had very dominating options that invalidated most of the cast.

Let's focus on the characters that actually have options to deal with it (because I can say most street fighter top tiers just have a zoning game that dominates with little effort just based on O.Sagat/Ryu vs Zangief, E.Honda, Blanka, cammy, etc...)

Still no input on melee; can't talk about a game idk about (obviously).

But try me on brawl though.

 

[EternalFlare]

Sheik, Diddy, Mewtwo, Rosalina and Fox would be my top 5, in order.


Mewtwo is extremely broken and underdeveloped. Fair and dtilt are much stronger pokes and walling tools than anything Cloud or Marth have to offer but Mewtwo also has Sheik's dash speed, the best KO throw in the game, one of the best projectiles in the game and the best airdodge in the game period. Why more people aren't using this character is beyond me, I think he's the only one left that can legitimately threaten Sheik's/Diddy's top 2 spots at this point. And he's suuuuuu~ch a good secondary character to have ready in your pocket.

Well said.

Don't forget he has one of the best recoveries (teleports can't be 2 framed if you do them from above). That combined with his air dodge, b-reverse and great range on his aerials means his disadvantage state is extremely good. He has little problem landing or recovering compared to even a lot of other top tiers.

You see Diddy's trying to recover low and getting gimped or forcing a desperate side B onto the stage and getting up/fsmashed. It's pretty much the same deal with Fox and Rosalina. But how often do you see Mewtwo struggling in these situations? Pretty much never.

So you've got a character with:

-Some of the best grounded pokes in the game
-great hitbox aerials that kill including fair and nair footstool setups
-extremely good recovery and landing options
-best kill throw in a game where shields are great
-extremely good projectile which is great for both zoning and killing

Not to mention some of the best, most consistent results of any character at the biggest tournaments thanks to Abadango.

How is this character NOT considered top 5 already?

 

[PK Gaming]

This may not be the thread to ask this question, but does ledge get-up have vulnerability somewhere during the get-up animation (but before the end)? I ask this because I've final cutter spiked people through the stage during their get-up animation too many times now.

According to Kurogane, that seems to be the case. Apparently, ledge get-up invincibility frames end 2 frames before the animation is complete.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You gonna argue Sheik or Sonic commit as much as chars lower then them?

Are they mindless? No. But having a strong flow chart with decent reward and fairly low risk is a big part of what makes chars strong in this series.

don't compare; let's look at it on its own (Ex. Link doesn't commit as hard as Ganon and therefore is low risk. Not true).

The risk for sheik getting her Fair PSed is a grab, no? Or a OOS boost kick. Or TSRK. Sonic getting his Spindash shielded has mix ups to reduce the risk, but all his setups have counter play. Jumping through the shield is %, or bad positioning, and staying on the shield is a grab iirc.

Tell me if I'm off.

 

[LRodC]

Well said.

Don't forget he has one of the best recoveries (teleports can't be 2 framed if you do them from above). That combined with his air dodge, b-reverse and great range on his aerials means his disadvantage state is extremely good. He has little problem landing or recovering compared to even a lot of other top tiers.

You see Diddy's trying to recover low and getting gimped or forcing a desperate side B onto the stage and getting up/fsmashed. It's pretty much the same deal with Fox and Rosalina. But how often do you see Mewtwo struggling in these situations? Pretty much never.

So you've got a character with:

-Some of the best grounded pokes in the game
-great hitbox aerials that kill including fair and nair footstool setups
-extremely good recovery and landing options
-best kill throw in a game where shields are great
-extremely good projectile which is great for both zoning and killing

Not to mention some of the best, most consistent results of any character at the biggest tournaments thanks to Abadango.

How is this character NOT considered top 5 already?

Both time and representation. Mewtwo was released as a DLC fighter 5 months after the start of the game, and he wasn't considered good or even decent at all until the end of last year. Characters like Sheik and Diddy have had the privilege of being top tier for the game's entire lifespan, so they have far more reps. And if they already main a top tier, why switch now?

 

[soniczx123]

don't compare; let's look at it on its own (Ex. Link doesn't commit as hard as Ganon and therefore is low risk. Not true).

The risk for sheik getting her Fair PSed is a grab, no? Or a OOS boost kick. Or TSRK. Sonic getting his Spindash shielded has mix ups to reduce the risk, but all his setups have counter play. Jumping through the shield is %, or bad positioning, and staying on the shield is a grab iirc.

Tell me if I'm off.

So just hit Spin Dash when the invincibility wears off???