Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[420quickscoper]

Seriously the more I think about it, the more Mewtwo's kill power seems broken.

No other character in this game can kill as reliably imo.

The closest you have is maybe Diddy but that's only if the opponent remains grounded and gets caught by banana or downtilt. If the opponent just platform camps him...none of Diddy's aerials are going to kill before 140 and that's assuming the opponent is near the edge/near the top and/or Diddy has massive rage. Else not even at 170+ do you have to worry about dying to his aerials.

With Cloud, once he's wasted limit you're in the clear. Or you can just block, not like he can kill off throws.

But with Mewtwo it literally does not matter where you are on the stage or what you are doing, you're always in danger if you are above 110ish.

And I don't think Mewtwo dying so early himself balances him out. Mewtwo's health bar might be lower but he also doesn't get comboed very hard being a floaty and he doesn't have to worry about too much damage in juggle/recovery situations either.

And even with that light weight, it's actually quite misleading to look at those weight units and say that he dies THAT early.
The likes of Rosalina and Mr. Game and Watch die earlier due to their falling speed.

 

[Y2Kay]

Pre patch Mewtwo still had two good kill throws,best air dodge in the game, shadow ball camping / mix ups / frame traps, good recovery, and a ridiculous Down Tilt.

Just not very "Bottom 5 contender" to me, but it doesn't matter. He's ridiculous now.

 

[Kofu]

Actually prepatch Mewtwo was pretty garbage.

If you gave Dr. Mario the mobility buffs and hitbox adjustments (and knockback adjustments on certain moves) that Mewtwo was given he'd be top tier too.

Just a thought.

I dunno, several of his most potent tools (DTilt, Shadow Ball, UThrow) really haven't been touched. FAir got one frame faster and had its size increased which is definitely significant though.

Overall I think the buffs made his punish game and aerial safety better, allowing him to really execute his gameplan.

3 SHACs

UAir SHACs too. Only NAir doesn't.

That's true; you just described

I think you've forgotten how strong Doc's moves are. BAir is disgusting. If Doc had Mario's mobility he'd likely be the best character in the game.

 

[420quickscoper]

Oh, right. The rest SHAC. It's still noteworthy that neutral air has really low landing lag at 13 frames, so it doesn't matter much.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Seriously the more I think about it, the more Mewtwo's kill power seems broken.

This again...

 

[Rizen]

I think you've forgotten how strong Doc's moves are. BAir is disgusting. If Doc had Mario's mobility he'd likely be the best character in the game.

The point was that what essentially is Dr.Mario with good mobility is top tier.

 

[Y2Kay]

This again...

One day people tell me Mewtwo's weight is too damning for him to be good and now his weakness are not significant enough, LOL.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seriously the more I think about it, the more Mewtwo's kill power seems broken.

No other character in this game can kill as reliably imo.

The closest you have is maybe Diddy but that's only if the opponent remains grounded and gets caught by banana or downtilt. If the opponent just platform camps him...none of Diddy's aerials are going to kill before 140 and that's assuming the opponent is near the edge/near the top and/or Diddy has massive rage. Else not even at 160+ do you have to worry about dying to his aerials.

With Cloud, once he's wasted limit you're in the clear. Or you can just block, not like he can kill off throws.

But with Mewtwo it literally does not matter where you are on the stage or what you are doing, you're always in danger if you are above 110ish.

And I don't think Mewtwo dying so early himself balances him out. Mewtwo's health bar might be lower but he also doesn't get comboed very hard being a floaty and he doesn't have to worry about too much damage in juggle/recovery situations either.

Bruh you are killing me.

I am literally dying right now.

Every day with you and this, "the more I think about it the more I feel*insert random top tier but def not Sheik cuz she is balanced" is broken.

**** man.

Just **** me bruh

 

[Das Koopa]

JJROCKETS apparently took Dabuz to game 5 in WFs at Nexus lol

 

[Y2Kay]

People definitely overrate Mewtwo's disadvantage state.

Mewtwo may have a good recovery but his OOS options are poor, and his ledge get up options are garbage. Getting back on stage against and players who know to pressure you there is a complete nightmare.

If you're a Mewtwo main, I suggest starting to learn Lagless Ledge Get Up.

 

[Das Koopa]

Skorpio > Tyroy, 3-1

Minnesota ain't so bad after all.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Bruh you are killing me.

I am literally dying right now.

Every day with you and this, "the more I think about it the more I feel*insert random top tier but def not Sheik cuz she is balanced" is broken.

**** man.

Just **** me bruh

I never said Sheik was balanced just nowhere near the best character. Why are you adamant on overrating Sheik? Even former Sheik players like Zero and Anti don't think she's all that any-more.

People definitely overrate Mewtwo's disadvantage state.

Mewtwo may have a good recovery but his OOS options are poor, and his ledge get up options are garbage. Getting back on stage against and players who know to pressure you there is a complete nightmare.

If you're a Mewtwo main, I suggest starting to learn Lagless Ledge Get Up.

Mewtwo has a good roll, a grab that kills early upwards and a fantastic nair that can lead into a footstool kill confirm. How are these bad OOS options again?

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo has a good roll, a grab that kills early upwards and a fantastic nair that can lead into a footstool kill confirm. How are these bad OOS options again?

Mewtwo's rolls aren't very good. They are pretty long but they are slow and more punishable.

Mewtwo's grab range sucks, and this issue is further compounded by his low ground traction.

Nair's hitboxes aren't good. Mewtwo easily loses trades with nearly all hitboxes with that move. It's not a sex kick.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Mewtwo's rolls aren't very good. They are pretty long but they are slow and more punishable.

Mewtwo's grab range sucks, and this issue is further compounded by his low ground traction.

Nair's hitboxes aren't good. Mewtwo easily loses trades with nearly all hitboxes with that move. It's not a sex kick.

I don't know which characters you are comparing him to to make these claims.

His rolls are too long to consistently get good punishes off of in most situations. If you are pressuring his shield, if he chooses to roll unless you hard read it, he gets away or takes a very minimum punish. Outside of a few select characters.

His grab range is fine given his great dash speed to go along with it. Besides grab OOS implies they did something punishable right in front of your shield anyway so I don't think range is too significant in this case.

A nair doesn't have to cleanly beat everything, honestly how many nairs even do this in this game? It's a solid lingering hitbox that hits all around him. And again we're talking of OOS punish options here, not how effective it is in neutral.

Let's not forget his tilts OOS as well.

 

[Das Koopa]

Skorpio 3-2 JJROCKETS

Skorpio vs. Dabuz GFs at Nexus.

 

[Greward]

Greward Heard from a few peeps that Bayonetta is still banned in Spain. Can you confirm that?

Source: https://twitter.com/BiolizPrototype/status/757343199132262400

She's not. Whoever is saying that is lying.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Skorpio 3-2 JJROCKETS

Skorpio vs. Dabuz GFs at Nexus.

If it's being streamed do you have a link?

 

[Das Koopa]

http://www.hitbox.tv/E2C

dabuz up 2-0

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't know which characters you are comparing him to to make these claims.

His rolls are too long to consistently get good punishes off of in most situations. If you are pressuring his shield, if he chooses to roll unless you hard read it, he gets away or takes a very minimum punish. Outside of a few select characters.

His grab range is fine given his great dash speed to go along with it. Besides grab OOS implies they did something punishable right in front of your shield anyway so I don't think range is too significant in this case.

A nair doesn't have to cleanly beat everything, honestly how many nairs even do this in this game? It's a solid lingering hitbox that hits all around him. And again we're talking of OOS punish options here, not how effective it is in neutral.

Let's not forget his tilts OOS as well.

His rolls aren't that hard to punish if your character has good ground speed. Mr. R can do this pretty consistently with Sheik.

I was talking about when you're using these moves out of shield, not in neutral. When you're in shield the dash speed isn't important, it's the grab size. His dash speed helps when grabbing in neutral, but the lack of range does cause whiffs from Mewtwo players from time to time.

Nair doesn't hit all around him untile the final frame. It only covers the hands and feet. So no, it isn't a solid lingering hit box.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

His rolls aren't that hard to punish if your character has good ground speed. Mr. R can do this pretty consistently with Sheik.

I was talking about when you're using these moves out of shield, not in neutral. When you're in shield the dash speed isn't important, it's the grab size. His dash speed helps when grabbing in neutral, but the lack of range does cause whiffs from Mewtwo players from time to time.

Nair doesn't hit all around him untile the final frame. It only covers the hands and feet. So no, it isn't a solid lingering hit box.

Yes I know you were referring to OOS but dash grab OOS is a true punish in some situations. And if it's a safe, spaced aerial on shield, well it's not like characters with slightly bigger grabs would punish that either, it'd be safe either way making it a moot point.

Sheik has some of the best mobility and frame data so naturally she's ideal for punishing rolls. But most characters are not going to be able to punish his rolls so easily. The length definitely helps him. Rolls in general in Smash 4 are really good so even if you want to argue his roll is only average overall, that's good enough to work sometimes.

And fair enough, I wasn't aware it didn't hit all around him until the end. Regardless, if it covers his feet, a drift back nair OOS should be able to punish options behind him the same way any other good nair would.

So I don't see what fundamental OOS option Mewtwo is missing.

 

[|RK|]

Seriously the more I think about it, the more Mewtwo's kill power seems broken.

No other character in this game can kill as reliably imo.

The closest you have is maybe Diddy but that's only if the opponent remains grounded and gets caught by banana or downtilt. If the opponent just platform camps him...none of Diddy's aerials are going to kill before 140 and that's assuming the opponent is near the edge/near the top and/or Diddy has massive rage. Else not even at 160+ do you have to worry about dying to his aerials.

With Cloud, once he's wasted limit you're in the clear. Or you can just block, not like he can kill off throws.

But with Mewtwo it literally does not matter where you are on the stage or what you are doing, you're always in danger if you are above 110ish.

And I don't think Mewtwo dying so early himself balances him out. Mewtwo's health bar might be lower but he also doesn't get comboed very hard being a floaty and he doesn't have to worry about too much damage in juggle/recovery situations either.

Mewtwo is not a floaty, and his hurtbox is pretty large. Combos on him aren't as difficult as you might think, based on those two alone.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Mewtwo is not a floaty, and his hurtbox is pretty large. Combos on him aren't as difficult as you might think, based on those two alone.

Going to have to disagree based off what I've seen and experienced. Mewtwo tends to pop out of standard up tilt strings for instance, earlier than most. It could be just because he takes more knockback given how light he is, but regardless of the reason, Mewtwo isn't combo food the way other top tiers like Diddy, Sheik, Cloud and Fox are.

 

[|RK|]

Going to have to disagree based off what I've seen and experienced. Mewtwo tends to pop out of standard up tilt strings for instance, earlier than most. It could be just because he takes more knockback given how light he is, but regardless of the reason, Mewtwo isn't combo food the way other top tiers like Diddy, Sheik, Cloud and Fox are.

Right, they all have faster fall speeds. Mewtwo's weight is the same as Mario's. Not a fast faller, but not a floaty either.

 

[TTTTTsd]

While I think Mewtwo is mostly fine atm I won't lie, his airdodge is incredible.

The only thing you can't do with it is land into the ground. Hell Airdodge OoS is probably one of the lowkey best options Mewtwo can apply, it has literally only 2 frames of punishable endlag. That's insanity!

 

[Y2Kay]

Yes I know you were referring to OOS but dash grab OOS is a true punish in some situations. And if it's a safe, spaced aerial on shield, well it's not like characters with slightly bigger grabs would punish that either, it'd be safe either way making it a moot point.

Sheik has some of the best mobility and frame data so naturally she's ideal for punishing rolls. But most characters are not going to be able to punish his rolls so easily. The length definitely helps him. Rolls in general in Smash 4 are really good so even if you want to argue his roll is only average overall, that's good enough to work sometimes.

And fair enough, I wasn't aware it didn't hit all around him until the end. Regardless, if it covers his feet, a drift back nair OOS should be able to punish options behind him the same way any other good nair would.

So I don't see what fundamental OOS option Mewtwo is missing.

Mewtwo's rolls aren't bad. They're usable for their purpose, it's just not a really noteworthy part of his kit.

And a 6 frame move, combine with a frame 5 jumpsquat and a pitifully small hitbox is just not a reliable OOS option to me.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Nair isn't an OOS option or an approach option. Too slow and small to work effectively for either. It's a "gotcha" button for punishing. The move itself isn't that great but it has nice reward. At low-mid percents, follow up with down tilt into fair or uair. At high percents, go for the footstool disable setup. If only the fastfall timing weren't so goddamn specific.

 

[Murlough]

You could also get an Up-Smash off with good timing. The footstool -> Disable is not always necessary.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I just want to make this perfectly clear, I do not think Mewtwo should be nerfed. With that out of the way let's get into it.
A comparison to Pre Patch Sheik could be made for Mewtwo. They're both light and susceptible to early rage kills, but they're able to work around that by killing you first, Sheik with her 50/50 from fthrow/dthrow, Mewtwo with his everything. HOWEVER, Mewtwo doesn't dominate neutral like Sheik does. He has a fantastic neutral, yes, but he will get destroyed if he messes up. Mewtwo's gonna win by pressuring you to make a mistake or chip away at you until he can grab you and chuck you into the sky, Sheik won by just pressing her amazing buttons in your face.

Also J JustSomeScrub every time with thiiiisssss..... Stooop. Stop with the "X needs to be nerfed!" crap over every good character.

 

[Gunla]

Dabuz closes out Nexus with a 3-0 against Skorpio, double eliminating him and winning the tournament.

Nexus Top 16:
1. dT | Dabuz
2. Skorpio
3. GGA.JJROCKETS
4. Tyroy
5. MJG
5. Sinnyboo242
7. LTL | Nev
7. EcneBanjo
9. Skillager
9. Fatality
9. Mr. Doom
9. Poyo
13. Shinjoebi
13. Jesus
13. Jibca
13. UNV | Marshall

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Seriously the more I think about it, the more Mewtwo's kill power seems broken.

This is just an observation:

You say that a lot about almost every top tier, almost like you have a dart board prepared for each day.

 

[NateMG]

At least Peach made it to Top 8, but it's Umeki, so you know. Mid tiers are receiving some spotlight this time around.

Thats why Peach is my secondary character in Smash 4, I think she has potential

 

[Y2Kay]

I just want to make this perfectly clear, I do not think Mewtwo should be nerfed. With that out of the way let's get into it.
A comparison to Pre Patch Sheik could be made for Mewtwo. They're both light and susceptible to early rage kills, but they're able to work around that by killing you first, Sheik with her 50/50 from fthrow/dthrow, Mewtwo with his everything. HOWEVER, Mewtwo doesn't dominate neutral like Sheik does. He has a fantastic neutral, yes, but he will get destroyed if he messes up. Mewtwo's gonna win by pressuring you to make a mistake or chip away at you until he can grab you and chuck you into the sky, Sheik won by just pressing her amazing buttons in your face.

Also J JustSomeScrub every time with thiiiisssss..... Stooop. Stop with the "X needs to be nerfed!" crap over every good character.

What seperates them in terms of effectiveness is not as much the neutral as it is the disadvantage. Mewtwo's disadvantage is incredibly wonky and uncomfortable while sheik easily has one of the best, if not the best, disadvantage in the game.

 

[TDK]

J JustSomeScrub - If we were to follow your line of reasoning, eventually we'd have a bunch of sheiks. Characters with good combo games that have difficulty KOing.

Sheik is still really good.

Nerfing kill power literally solves nothing. Nerfing easy, garunteed combos (read: not nair footstool disable since that's hard to pull off) such as hoo-hah or Sheik's 50-50s is the way to go. Nerfing an up smash because it kills at 100? That's exactly what an up smash is supposed to do. Kill things. Nerfing a forward air that kills at 120? Does it have any garunteed combos into it? no? then it's really good, but not broken. Nerfing a difficult to pull off, precise combo? There's literally no point in that because it's hard to land and hard to do right. Nerfing an up throw that kills at 130? Look at the character's grab range. If it's not great, then chances are he needs the throw to get any reward off of it.

All you're doing is complaining about every not-sheik top tier. There's no point in it. Smash 4 is a very balanced game with a few overtuned options, but those options need to be overcome by us as players and not just calling "nerf!!!!" and waiting for Sakurai to do something about it.

Also, everyone, I highly suggest you turn scrub on ignore, he has nothing to add from discussion and just cries about every good character.

 

[Ninety]

Good **** to Skorpio. He got Dabuz'd, but hey, what you gonna do. Any VODs?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I mean, to be fair, Mewtwo doesn't need an uthrow that kills at 130, considering all the kill power he has behind him now. He doesn't necessarily need it removed though either.

 

[TDK]

I mean, to be fair, Mewtwo doesn't need an uthrow that kills at 130, considering all the kill power he has behind him now. He doesn't necessarily need it removed though either.

He doesn't need it, no, but Sakurai in general seems to avoid removing a character's kill throw between games. Ness's bthrow has always been a kill throw in every smash game. Heck, it's even gotten stronger. Mewtwo's was nerfed by about 30% between Melee and Smash 4, for instance, but it's not removed. I'll concede that Mewtwo doesn't need it, but he has it.

 

[verbatim]

d3 has better results than zard, honestly

I'm waiting for that magical Zard main to appear

Be Smash 2016 (July 23rd-July 24th) (Dominican Republic) (212 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Sharpyzard

!


On that note, could someone versed w/ either side talk about Cloud vs Charizard? I've been noticing an eery amount of upsets in that particular matchup, and just from watching VODs the matchup doesn't look as hopeless as I would have assumed.

 

[arbustopachon]

Link to the Zard vs Cloud matchup thread on the Zard boards.
Its not very complete or indepth but hey at least is something.

 

[TDK]

For as much crap as I give Charizard, I don't want any character to fail in this game. So it's awesome to see Sharpy do well.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Dedede isn't so great? Are you kidding me? When was the last time you saw a character with such an ability and movement while being voiced by the creator of Smash Bros? DDD puts the game in another level, and we will be blessed if we ever see a character with his kill power and range in the game again. Diddy breaks records. Sheik breaks records. Dedede breaks the rules. You can keep your tournament results. I prefer the magic.