Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

Oh it's been a while since somebody **** posted here . . .

that copypasta is funny AND original @FreedomFighter

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's nice to see Charizard win a regional.

Real nice.


That said, yeah, Cloud vs Charizard is surprisingly easy for Charizard and I consider it his best top tier matchup.

When you can consistently edge guard a character without leaving the stage, you're in a good position.

 

[Dabuz]

Dabuz closes out Nexus with a 3-0 against Skorpio, double eliminating him and winning the tournament.

Nexus Top 16:
1. dT | Dabuz
2. Skorpio
3. GGA.JJROCKETS
4. Tyroy
5. MJG
5. Sinnyboo242
7. LTL | Nev
7. EcneBanjo
9. Skillager
9. Fatality
9. Mr. Doom
9. Poyo
13. Shinjoebi
13. Jesus
13. Jibca
13. UNV | Marshall

I used Olimar too

 

[FeelMeUp]

Wonder how long this Olimar pick will keep working for Dabuz.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Where the hell is Corrin

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Olimar doesn't even strike me as a good secondary for Rosalina. He probably gets **** on hard by cloud and mk too. Dabuz is definitely only using him to throw off inexperienced opponents, which isn't a bad idea, but it can only work for so long.

I think a good serious secondary for dabuz would be megaman. I know megaman isn't considered a common counterpick character, but he does respectably against Cloud and metaknight, and fits with dabuz's defensive playstyle. Now granted I doubt dabuz would pick up this extremely difficult character as a secondary, especially when he's already placing so high with olimar in the pocket, but it could work if he tried.

 

[Dabuz]

Olimar doesn't even strike me as a good secondary for Rosalina. He probably gets **** on by cloud and mk hard too. Dabuz is definitely only using him to throw off inexperienced opponents, which isn't a bad idea, but it can only work for so long.

I think a good serious secondary for dabuz would be megaman. I know megaman isn't considered a common counterpick character, but he does respectably against Cloud and metaknight, and fits with dabuz's defensive playstyle. Now granted I doubt dabuz would pick up this extremely difficult character as a secondary, expecially when he's already placing so high with olimar in the pocket, but it could work if he tried.

Cloud isn't a problem for Rosa, but Olimar does well vs. him, and MK as well. I do actually have a pocket Mega since he's fun.

Olimar only gets wrecked by like, Fox, and maybe Sheik/ ROB/ Falcon, everything else is just like, slightly losing

 

[Y2Kay]

I love how people talk about Dabuz like he's not in this thread. You could just ask why he uses Olimar, he's right there LOL.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I know why he plays him. I just wonder how long it'll take for people to see the character's actually really bad aside from like 2-3 stages.

 

[Dabuz]

That's kinda the point of him, you go to stage X, I can pull him out, otherwise Rosa

 

[|RK|]

Cloud isn't a problem for Rosa, but Olimar does well vs. him, and MK as well. I do actually have a pocket Mega since he's fun.

Olimar only gets wrecked by like, Fox, and maybe Sheik/ ROB/ Falcon, everything else is just like, slightly losing

I hear that Aba and ANTi didn't play the MK matchup correctly against you, particularly since MK uthrow is a Pikmin bomb. Does Olimar have more advantages in that MU?

EDIT: I also noticed on Twitter that you said you needed a real secondary for MK.

 

[FeelMeUp]

So you play him for Lylat and FD exclusively, I'm assuming?

 

[Dabuz]

I hear that Aba and ANTi didn't play the MK matchup correctly against you, particularly since MK uthrow is a Pikmin bomb. Does Olimar have more advantages in that MU?

EDIT: I also noticed on Twitter that you said you needed a real secondary for MK.

Grabbing Olimar is hard. I need a real secondary because I can't fight a time out based MK on tri platform stages.

And yes, Lylat/ FD/ SV are where Oli shines, though i'm starting to second guess Lylat

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Olimar is pretty great in some top tier matchups, and I'd imagine it works great for Dabuz on those stages especially. Although I thought lylat was better for rosa than for olimar, thoughts? Dabuz

 

[Dabuz]

Lylat is a lame stage, that is all

 

[Mr. Johan]

Lylat is a strange stage.

Sure, you get lipped out by the stage tilts, and some attack angles can cause your opponent to bounce along.

But, the stage can save you because of that tilting sometimes. Diddy Usmash doesn't connect properly when its on tilt, and Meta Knight might start too high or too low on the stage to properly strike you with UpB after a Dash Attack confirm.

It's a bit of give and take. Just depends on how confident you are that you'll be given a lot more than taken.

 

[FeelMeUp]

What makes Vinnie's disadvantage game stand out compared to other sheiks? @Gheb

It's almost impossible to pull off strings/DI mixups or get kill setups on the guy because he's so slippery in the disadvantage.
It's something I've made note of as well.

 

[IsmaR]

Oh it's been a while since somebody **** posted here . . .

that copypasta is funny AND original @FreedomFighter

Friendly reminder that replying to ****posting is also ****posting.

Additional reminder that while hype/competitive implications and food for thought aside, major (or otherwise significant enough to get the thread/scene's attention) events happening are not an excuse for the discussion in here to devolve into a Social thread or Twitch chat.

Lastly, as lovely as Dabuz is for taking the time to grace us mortals with his presence and as terrible as Lylat's very existence is, this isn't an AMA.

 

[PK Gaming]

Dabuz closes out Nexus with a 3-0 against Skorpio, double eliminating him and winning the tournament.

Nexus Top 16:
1. dT | Dabuz
2. Skorpio
3. GGA.JJROCKETS
4. Tyroy
5. MJG
5. Sinnyboo242
7. LTL | Nev
7. EcneBanjo
9. Skillager
9. Fatality
9. Mr. Doom
9. Poyo
13. Shinjoebi
13. Jesus
13. Jibca
13. UNV | Marshall

Skorpio did good, making it to 2nd with Robin

He's always been pretty serious about pushing Robin's meta so it's really neat to see that pay off

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I like Lylat honestly, but I guess my mains take advantage of the jank.

Plus Star Fox music.



Here's something I've been thinking about recently. Who is the best zoner of the game? And who has the best projectiles? Do they coincide?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

6wx has made a character playstyle chart

 

[ShadowGuy1]

6wx has made a character playstyle chart

so 6WX posted this hmm. It seems mostly right besides for one key flaw. Rosa is not a projectile zoner. You can't really zone well with star bits or Luma Shot. I think she fits more under the Bait and a Punish/Mix-Up game section.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

6wx has made a character playstyle chart

Interesting.

Completely wrong but interesting.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I was gonna ask if someone would do a playstyle analysis/chart or something. Nice 6wx. It's not perfect as implied bluntly by ~ Gheb ~ but it's a good idea & is something we've been needing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Today I learned that Dabuz has a pocket Mega Man and that his Olimar CP's are stage based instead of character based. Interesting. Also respect for the character choices, I could never really get the hang of Olimar and always thought Mega Man was different enough to basically require full time investment.

Re: 6WX playstyle chart, I can kind of see where he's coming from with Rosalina as a projectile zoner even though she has no projectiles to speak of other than Luma Shot. Since her usual MO is to space with Luma while keeping herself safe, it's functionally similar to zoning with a projectile. It's just that her projectile has HP and can put out hitboxes on command.

 

[LancerStaff]

What exactly is wrong with the list? Maybe it's because I skipped the morning coffee but it seems fine besides the honorable mentions thing being too big and maybe Pit being in the all-arounder category instead of the swordsman one, but he fits both anyway.

Also actual constructive criticism instead of snark would be nice.

 

[Zelder]

Mario will never properly shed his all-arounder viewpoint. He's a rushdown master in Smash 4, through and through.

Edit: I hate that thing that we do where someone posts a chart, and then everyone looks at a single part of it, goes "THAT'S NOT TRUE, X IS A Y", then proceeds to tear down the whole list. I'll actually say that I agree with more of it than I don't, but I definitely do view Mario as a rushdown character.

 

[Blobface]

@Kung Fu Treachery kinda late but figured I'd answer since it's something I've wanted to bring up for a while.

The main difference between Cloud and Diddy's recoveries is how much distance their recovery moves travel. In most any edgeguarding situation, the best option is always to simply go around the edgeguarder, getting as far away as possible. Did dies recovery has it's flaws, but the fact that it has so much distance means he can recover from a huge range of places offstage. Compare that to Cloud who has just a vertical line by the ledge (and only one small place he can ledgesnap from).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What exactly is wrong with the list?

Sheik as the only true all-rounder [as in, a character that excells in every aspect] is listed as a rushdown character, whereas Ryu is for some reason listed as an all-rounder when he's pretty much Punishment: The Character. Though he *can* be played as such Mewtwo is not really a projectile-based character, Yoc Corrin isn't among the best sword characters, many characters fit two categories at the same time and why Lucario should be considered an all-rounder will probably remain a mystery forever. Just some of the obvious mistakes I've noticed.

It's a cool concept nonetheless.

 

[blackghost]

6wx has made a character playstyle chart

how is Miis gunner not a zoner? that character has villager fair and a charge **** and Pk fire wannabe that stage spikes onstage.

 

[Frihetsanka]

how is Miis gunner not a zoner? that character has villager fair and a charge **** and Pk fire wannabe that stage spikes onstage.

Mii Gunner doesn't fall under "best" I suppose. I assume it's Guest 1111.

@Greward Heard from a few peeps that Bayonetta is still banned in Spain. Can you confirm that?

Source: https://twitter.com/BiolizPrototype/status/757343199132262400

What I've heard is that they only talked about banning her. Source: https://twitter.com/GrewardSSB/status/757406610172051456

Edit: Sorry for double-posting, the site is lagging for me so it seemed somehow that I wasn't the newest post.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mii Gunner doesn't fall under "best" I suppose. I assume it's Guest 1111.

Gunner is definitely a better projectile-focused zoner than Mewtwo. In fact, Mewtwo would fit better in the sword based zoner catagory because of his great disjointed moves such as fair and dtilt.

6wx has made a character playstyle chart

I think that this list could use a footsies category and an anti zoning category. It would be a better way to recognize the strengths of characters such as Little Mac and Lucas.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mewtwo is one of the many characters that fit into more than one category. Elements of the 'sword' archetypes and the grappler are prominent in his standard gameplan and so is projectile camping, though to a lesser extent.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I've been thinking about Diddy counterplay and have been disappointed for a while with people's use of the banana in the matchup. So I spent most of this morning labbing, and I found some neat stuff. I tested some banana followups in training mode with a variety of different characters. Some of them ranged from your standard banana->combo starter/smash attack, some of them worked unexpectedly, and some of them were just great. This might come off as pretty obvious and unnecessary to some people, but there are a lot of more nuanced aspects of the banana that determine how it gets used by some characters such as their item toss stats, and how they can use their specials in conjunction with a held banana. It's worth noting that no matter how good or bad their glide toss distance is, almost all of these characters can follow up a glide toss with any option out of a dash (dash attack, dash grab, or upsmash)

Spoiler

These aren't that interesting but they work. Mario's glide toss and running toss aren't great so most of these setups should be used out of shield. Banana into uptilt, upsmash, and super jump punch are the best options.

Spoiler

Banana into upb is not a combo. That is a meme. Diddy won't get hit by the sweetspot after a glide toss or a toss out of shield. But out of shield, fsmash connects well. Like mario, his item throw stats are bad so it's best to use fireballs to force approaches and punish bad spacing on your shield with banana.

Edit: banana into misfire is not a combo either. That is also a meme.

Spoiler

This is where things get more interesting. Remember how I said mario and luigi have limited potential because they don't slide far enough during a glide toss? Sheik has this too, but it actually works in her favor. Glide toss banana actually connects into bouncing fish because of the distance! I thought this was pretty damn cool. Out of shield banana toss is best followed up with ftilt, which you can use to extend combos or land a uair and kill. Sheik is so good with the banana because her mobility and her ability to force approaches with needles makes it easier to land.

Spoiler

Yoshi has such good potential with the banana. For starters, his glide toss is really good. It actually sends him in the perfect position to land down b, egg lay, fsmash, dsmash, upsmash. At around 100 percent you can actually kill with utilt to uair. It's just so good, which is further complemented by his ability to camp with eggs.

Spoiler

Ohhhhh my god. Holy ****. Banana into tipper fsmash! When it connected I mentally **** myself. Marth's glide toss positions diddy ****ing perfectly for this. It's incredible. Out of shield, dancing blade and dolphin slash do the trick.

Spoiler

Another amazing banana user. Having banana into dash grab makes up for how slow her grab is. Paralyzer into banana into dsmash has endless potential. Her glide toss is nice too. You can really go crazy here.

Spoiler

Banana into confusion actually works. That's all I really have to say. Go crazy.

Edit: hot damn. Glide tossed banana into buffered fully charged shadow ball also works. That's crazy.
Edit #2: confirms into disable too. So basically all of mewtwo's specials are confirmed by banana.

It's interesting that some of the best uses of the banana from this sample are characters who are considered to have bad matchups against diddy. Maybe over time these will see more use and the matchups could be closer to even.

 

[my_T]

mario is not a rush down character.

He doesn't have the mobility for it. It's not hard for him to get walled out by characters like DK, Bowser, Marth, and Rosa for example.

I think his lack of speed is the main reason the Mario/DK match-up is pretty winnable for DK. His lack of range is obviously a factor as well

Then there's the fox/DK match-up. Fox's range and frame data are very similar to marios but the main difference is their mobility which is the very thing that makes this match-up so much ****tier for DK than the mario match-up.

If someone would like to explain how he's a rushdown character then please do because i don't see it

 

[C0rvus]

I don't know if I consider him a rushdown character, but he creates a lot of pressure. Safe back airs coupled with good air speed, high approaching fireball mixups, a threatening grab game, up smash, 3 frame nair and invincible up special; all of these allow him to create pressure, and mix you up. That seems to usually be his game plan. Whether or not it's very effective in every matchup is something else entirely.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

mario is not a rush down character.

He doesn't have the mobility for it. It's not hard for him to get walled out by characters like DK, Bowser, Marth, and Rosa for example.

I think his lack of speed is the main reason the Mario/DK match-up is pretty winnable for DK. His lack of range is obviously a factor as well

Then there's the fox/DK match-up. Fox's range and frame data are very similar to marios but the main difference is their mobility which is the very thing that makes this match-up so much ****tier for DK than the mario match-up.

If someone would like to explain how he's a rushdown character then please do because i don't see it

Mario is mobile enough to evade hitboxes. If he sucked at approaching we would see it.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I've been thinking about Diddy counterplay and have been disappointed for a while with people's use of the banana in the matchup. So I spent most of this morning labbing, and I found some neat stuff. I tested some banana followups in training mode with a variety of different characters. Some of them ranged from your standard banana->combo starter/smash attack, some of them worked unexpectedly, and some of them were just great. This might come off as pretty obvious and unnecessary to some people, but there are a lot of more nuanced aspects of the banana that determine how it gets used by some characters such as their item toss stats, and how they can use their specials in conjunction with a held banana. It's worth noting that no matter how good or bad their glide toss distance is, almost all of these characters can follow up a glide toss with any option out of a dash (dash attack, dash grab, or upsmash)

Spoiler

These aren't that interesting but they work. Mario's glide toss and running toss aren't great so most of these setups should be used out of shield. Banana into uptilt, upsmash, and super jump punch are the best options.

Spoiler

Banana into upb is not a combo. That is a meme. Diddy won't get hit by the sweetspot after a glide toss or a toss out of shield. But out of shield, fsmash connects well. Like mario, his item throw stats are bad so it's best to use fireballs to force approaches and punish bad spacing on your shield with banana.

Edit: banana into misfire is not a combo either. That is also a meme.

Spoiler

This is where things get more interesting. Remember how I said mario and luigi have limited potential because they don't slide far enough during a glide toss? Sheik has this too, but it actually works in her favor. Glide toss banana actually connects into bouncing fish because of the distance! I thought this was pretty damn cool. Out of shield banana toss is best followed up with ftilt, which you can use to extend combos or land a uair and kill. Sheik is so good with the banana because her mobility and her ability to force approaches with needles makes it easier to land.

Spoiler

Yoshi has such good potential with the banana. For starters, his glide toss is really good. It actually sends him in the perfect position to land down b, egg lay, fsmash, dsmash, upsmash. At around 100 percent you can actually kill with utilt to uair. It's just so good, which is further complemented by his ability to camp with eggs.

Spoiler

Ohhhhh my god. Holy ****. Banana into tipper fsmash! When it connected I mentally **** myself. Marth's glide toss positions diddy ****ing perfectly for this. It's incredible. Out of shield, dancing blade and dolphin slash do the trick.

Spoiler

Another amazing banana user. Having banana into dash grab makes up for how slow her grab is. Paralyzer into banana into dsmash has endless potential. Her glide toss is nice too. You can really go crazy here.

Spoiler

Banana into confusion actually works. That's all I really have to say. Go crazy.

Edit: hot damn. Glide tossed banana into buffered fully charged shadow ball also works. That's crazy.

It's interesting that some of the best uses of the banana from this sample are characters who are considered to have bad matchups against diddy. Maybe over time these will see more use and the matchups could be closer to even.

You have me very intrigued! If you wouldn't mind, I think a lot of people would appreciate some follow ups for some more of Diddy's bad match ups, like Mega Man and a few others. I'd imagine banana OOS > Shoryu is a follow up for him, among others. I'll definitely try labbing it with some other characters myself when I get the opportunity.

 

[PK Gaming]

Mario is the farthest thing from an all-arounder in this game

The only well-rounded aspect of him is his belly

 

[my_T]

Mario is mobile enough to evade hitboxes. If he sucked at approaching we would see it.

There are plenty of characters that are mobile enough to evade hitboxes; that doesn't make them a rushdown character. Mewtwo, Wario, and Tink are good examples of this.

and his approach options aren't bad but they're nothing to write home about. Fireball is laggy af, he has no range, and he's just slow enough to the point where you can keep up with him. He's too floaty to create pressure through short/full hops and his average ground speed coupled with his lack of range makes it difficult for him to create threatening pressure in most neutral situations. It's only when he has frame advantage or positional advantage where i see him putting on a lot of pressure

Again, look at his match-ups with Bowser and DK. He can get walled out pretty easily. But characters like Fox and Pika can rush them down pretty hard. Pika, while not amazingly fast, is still faster than average while also having QA to help him close the gap, and Fox is just straight up fast in pretty much every way you can think of. Mario just doesn't have strong rushdown capabilities where as Fox and Pika do, and it's a large reason as to why they do so much better against DK/Bowser than mario does.