Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

Mario is certainly a rushdown character. What are you going on about.

 

[my_T]

Mario is certainly a rushdown character. What are you going on about.

An explanation would be nice

 

[Yikarur]

Mario (and Mii Brawler 8) ) are rushdown characters. They want to pressure you really hard to force mistakes and capitalize on them with the hardest punish possible.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

An explanation would be nice

The original intention may have been that Mario was to be an all rounder and to some extant that's true. No major weaknesses and he can do a bit of everything.

It's just that rushdown is where he really shines.

 

[DblCrest]

Story time

Spoiler

..and after a rusty return to playing Smash and playing online I encountered a pretty good Duck Hunt,a dancing Luigi and I proceeded to get bopped by someone with Cloud sure it was laggy and all but eh. I now agree that he's a bit of a menace in mid/low level play and dread the day where I end up only fighting only Clouds when I find a competent local scene in my area. I need me some counterplay and some more patience .

...and then I remembered this thread and decided to check in.

I've been wondering about ledge trumping and interfering with recoveries and whether they're under utilised or not. Is getting back to the stage too safe for you and too dangerous for your opponent to take advantage of you're returning?

 

[C0rvus]

Being at the the ledge puts you in a mixup situation. Ledge trumping is just another layer of mixup. It has counterplay, but that can be baited. Most of the time, staying on the stage and pressuring safely via positioning, projectile harassment, or meaty setups is better; but getting a trump can mean the stock for a number of characters. Risk/reward and all that. There was that footstool buffering technique that Reflex posted about that I haven't seen in use yet.

Ledge play is an area I think players at every level of play could seek to improve on. I have watched many, many players let their opponent back onstage for free (myself included). It's free pressure, take it.

 

[Das Koopa]

weekend results

Spoiler: 2GGT: KTAR Saga (July 23rd) (Southern California) (414 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Pink Fresh
2nd: Marss
3rd: VoiD
4th: Larry Lurr
5th: Mr. R
5th: Falln
7th: Tyrant
7th: Zan
9th: Aarvark
9th: Mr. E
9th: SS ,
9th: MVD
13th: False ,
13th: Elegant
13th: TLTC
13th: DKWill

Decided to be flexible with C3. Not a major but it has enough of a bigger skill pool than other 2GGTs.

Spoiler: Umebura 24 (July 24th) (Japan) (224 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Pichi
2nd: T
3rd: Tsu-
4th: Choco
5th: KEN
5th: Umeki
7th: Hikari
7th: Yui
9th: Kakera
9th: Nietono
9th: Kisha ,
9th: Yuzu
13th: Ri-Ma
13th: Taiheita
13th: Hayato.
13th: YOC

Spoiler: PPT Summer (July 23rd) (Germany) (188 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Abadango
2nd: Ixis
3rd: Quik
4th: Elexiao ,
5th: Sodrek ,
5th: iStudying
7th: LoNg0uw ,
7th: Patrino
9th: Boomuki
9th: Tolgini
9th: C.R.Z
9th: Cfive
13th: Sabaca
13th: Luigi Player
13th: Hoe4U
13th: Destany

Spoiler: Be Smash 2016 (July 23rd-July 24th) (Dominican Republic) (212 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Sharpyzard
2nd: Digital Strider
3rd: Stark
4th: Papin
5th: 0mart ,
5th: Capitancito
7th: Keekay
7th: Naranja
9th: Javon
9th: SS Cabellito
9th: SS Rikar
9th: Xelim
13th: FDC Monra
13th: DantelinkX
13th: Don Neko
13th: Shaka

Spoiler: Nexus (July 23rd, 24th) (Midwest) (165 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Dabuz ,
2nd: Skorpio
3rd: JJROCKETS
4th: Tyroy
5th: MJG
5th: Sinnyboo242
7th: EcneBanjo
7th: Nev
9th: Fatality
9th: Skillager
9th: Poyo
9th: Mr. Doom
13th: Shinjoebi
13th: Jibca
13th: Marshall
13th: Jesus

Spoiler: VSGC 7/21/16 (July 21st) (Florida) (120 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DJ Jack
2nd: Xaltis
3rd: Seibrik
4th: True Blue
5th: Purple Guy
5th: TNF Child
7th: 8BitMan
7th: Black Guy Gamer
9th: Zen
9th: Dath
9th: PPG Leo
9th: Hex
13th: Pears
13th: Taku
13th: Eden
13th: SHB Wang

 

[ぱみゅ]

Those Marth and Lucina placements.... I think we have beat that bush plenty...

 

[Jexulus]

I think we're looking at these characters the wrong way. There's a distinction between "archetype" and "playstyle" that we're misconstruing.

Let's take a look at Mario and using him as an example. Mario's design archetype was constructed by the developer as an "all-around" character, but at optimal play, his tools can be effectively utilized to support a "rushdown" playstyle.

Now, let's look at Mewtwo. Clearly, given his weight and his moveset, he was initially designed/modified from his Melee design with the "glass cannon" archetype in mind, correct? But given his wide range of moves and potent defensive options, he has many viable playstyles. He can zone from midrange, pressure up close, and anything in between.

Basically, when we discuss which characters perform what roles the best, we should solidify what these characters actually are first.

 

[juddy96]

weekend results

Spoiler: 2GGT: KTAR Saga (July 23rd) (Southern California) (414 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Pink Fresh
2nd: Marss
3rd: VoiD
4th: Larry Lurr
5th: Mr. R
5th: Falln
7th: Tyrant
7th: Zan
9th: Aarvark
9th: Mr. E
9th: SS ,
9th: MVD
13th: False ,
13th: Elegant
13th: TLTC
13th: DKWill

Decided to be flexible with C3. Not a major but it has enough of a bigger skill pool than other 2GGTs.

Spoiler: Umebura 24 (July 24th) (Japan) (224 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Pichi
2nd: T
3rd: Tsu-
4th: Choco
5th: KEN
5th: Umeki
7th: Hikari
7th: Yui
9th: Kakera
9th: Nietono
9th: Kisha ,
9th: Yuzu
13th: Ri-Ma
13th: Taiheita
13th: Hayato.
13th: YOC

Spoiler: PPT Summer (July 23rd) (Germany) (188 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Abadango
2nd: Ixis
3rd: Quik
4th: Elexiao ,
5th: Sodrek ,
5th: iStudying
7th: LoNg0uw ,
7th: Patrino
9th: Boomuki
9th: Tolgini
9th: C.R.Z
9th: Cfive
13th: Sabaca
13th: Luigi Player
13th: Hoe4U
13th: Destany

Spoiler: Be Smash 2016 (July 23rd-July 24th) (Dominican Republic) (212 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Sharpyzard
2nd: Digital Strider
3rd: Stark
4th: Papin
5th: 0mart ,
5th: Capitancito
7th: Keekay
7th: Naranja
9th: Javon
9th: SS Cabellito
9th: SS Rikar
9th: Xelim
13th: FDC Monra
13th: DantelinkX
13th: Don Neko
13th: Shaka

Spoiler: Nexus (July 23rd, 24th) (Midwest) (165 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Dabuz ,
2nd: Skorpio
3rd: JJROCKETS
4th: Tyroy
5th: MJG
5th: Sinnyboo242
7th: EcneBanjo
7th: Nev
9th: Fatality
9th: Skillager
9th: Poyo
9th: Mr. Doom
13th: Shinjoebi
13th: Jibca
13th: Marshall
13th: Jesus

Spoiler: VSGC 7/21/16 (July 21st) (Florida) (120 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DJ Jack
2nd: Xaltis
3rd: Seibrik
4th: True Blue
5th: Purple Guy
5th: TNF Child
7th: 8BitMan
7th: Black Guy Gamer
9th: Zen
9th: Dath
9th: PPG Leo
9th: Hex
13th: Pears
13th: Taku
13th: Eden
13th: SHB Wang

Luigi player was actually one of only two people to take a game off Aba... and it was in a Mewtwo ditto so M2 should be added

 

[williamsga555]

Oh wow, shoutouts to Banjo for his performance at Nexus. Dude's basically the reigning king of Iowa events (especially since Sinnyboo plays elsewhere now). Outplacing Fatality and Skillager is no small feat.

Makes me feel a bit better about my inability to beat him yet, anyway.


On CCI-related topics, character archetypes used to be a lot easier to pin down in previous games. Something that seems to get lost in talking about Smash 4's balance and roster size is that they really focused hard on making *almost* every character feel truly unique, and I think they succeeded quite well. It feels like just about everyone has some particular nuance to their moveset that needs to be accounted for.

And on top of that, as has been mentioned by a few others already, a lot of characters can reasonably fill multiple roles. Matchup knowledge is so important.

 

[FullMoon]

Was a pretty good weekend for Greninja all things considered. Shame Some didn't make top 16 at Umebura.

 

[Fenny]

weekend results

Spoiler: 2GGT: KTAR Saga (July 23rd) (Southern California) (414 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Pink Fresh
2nd: Marss
3rd: VoiD
4th: Larry Lurr
5th: Mr. R
5th: Falln
7th: Tyrant
7th: Zan
9th: Aarvark
9th: Mr. E
9th: SS ,
9th: MVD
13th: False ,
13th: Elegant
13th: TLTC
13th: DKWill

Decided to be flexible with C3. Not a major but it has enough of a bigger skill pool than other 2GGTs.

Spoiler: Umebura 24 (July 24th) (Japan) (224 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Pichi
2nd: T
3rd: Tsu-
4th: Choco
5th: KEN
5th: Umeki
7th: Hikari
7th: Yui
9th: Kakera
9th: Nietono
9th: Kisha ,
9th: Yuzu
13th: Ri-Ma
13th: Taiheita
13th: Hayato.
13th: YOC

Spoiler: PPT Summer (July 23rd) (Germany) (188 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Abadango
2nd: Ixis
3rd: Quik
4th: Elexiao ,
5th: Sodrek ,
5th: iStudying
7th: LoNg0uw ,
7th: Patrino
9th: Boomuki
9th: Tolgini
9th: C.R.Z
9th: Cfive
13th: Sabaca
13th: Luigi Player
13th: Hoe4U
13th: Destany

Spoiler: Be Smash 2016 (July 23rd-July 24th) (Dominican Republic) (212 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Sharpyzard
2nd: Digital Strider
3rd: Stark
4th: Papin
5th: 0mart ,
5th: Capitancito
7th: Keekay
7th: Naranja
9th: Javon
9th: SS Cabellito
9th: SS Rikar
9th: Xelim
13th: FDC Monra
13th: DantelinkX
13th: Don Neko
13th: Shaka

Spoiler: Nexus (July 23rd, 24th) (Midwest) (165 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Dabuz ,
2nd: Skorpio
3rd: JJROCKETS
4th: Tyroy
5th: MJG
5th: Sinnyboo242
7th: EcneBanjo
7th: Nev
9th: Fatality
9th: Skillager
9th: Poyo
9th: Mr. Doom
13th: Shinjoebi
13th: Jibca
13th: Marshall
13th: Jesus

Spoiler: VSGC 7/21/16 (July 21st) (Florida) (120 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DJ Jack
2nd: Xaltis
3rd: Seibrik
4th: True Blue
5th: Purple Guy
5th: TNF Child
7th: 8BitMan
7th: Black Guy Gamer
9th: Zen
9th: Dath
9th: PPG Leo
9th: Hex
13th: Pears
13th: Taku
13th: Eden
13th: SHB Wang

A Bayo in four of the top 16s and three of the top 8s?

Great weekend.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mario is the farthest thing from an all-arounder in this game

The only well-rounded aspect of him is his belly

Mario USED to be well-rounded in stats, but as the number of fighters (swordfighters in particular) increased, that philosophy simply wasn't going to cut it much longer, as painfully demonstrated. He became a case study showing how brawlers that aren't hulking superheavies need at least above-average mobility to be remotely competitive. Now, his well-roundedness comes in the form of his tools; he has everything you could possibly ask for in a character. Projectile? Check. Reflector? Check. Altering opponent's momentum without hitstun? Cape which is practically 100% exclusive to him (and his P.H.D counterpart) and FLUDD. Meteor? Check. Competent grab game? Check. Powerful smashes? Check. Decent recovery move which doubles as a decent attack? Check. The list goes on, and while most of those tools might not be the best in their field, someone who knows the when and where to use them can do a lot.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It would help to define these archetypes and playstyles before arguing over who's what. I've come to understand rushdown as a form of offense characterized by overwhelming the opponent in the neutral, invading their space, and racking up damage with quick, safe approaches. Characters I can think of who do this are Fox, Pikachu, Sheik, Mario, and Diddy. Now, that isn't to say that these characters can ONLY perform rushdown. That would be silly and it would make the meta inherently less deep. It just means that's a viable playstyle for them.

With that in mind, I think we should categorize characters into a venn diagram or something like this? It's not perfect and doesn't have all the characters yet, but it's a start.

 

[EternalFlare]

Being at the the ledge puts you in a mixup situation. Ledge trumping is just another layer of mixup. It has counterplay, but that can be baited. Most of the time, staying on the stage and pressuring safely via positioning, projectile harassment, or meaty setups is better; but getting a trump can mean the stock for a number of characters. Risk/reward and all that. There was that footstool buffering technique that Reflex posted about that I haven't seen in use yet.

I could be wrong on a lot of this information but this is what I've gathered from reading stuff on this forum and from personal experience.

Ledge trumping only works if they don't buffer a roll, ledge jump or getup attack.

This means ledge trumping is the perfect option if you notice they love to do regular getups from the ledge. Because to my knowledge one can't buffer regular getups in this game. And since the window for punishing regular getups is so small, it's a very commonly used option at all levels of play.

Does anyone have a list of characters that can ledge trump successfully anyway? Because it seems not every character is fast enough to do it and some characters end up in awkward positions after the trump. It might be DI or something else, not sure.

As for the trump fake footstool technique, not every character can get a decent punish after doing them and I don't believe it's possible to reset every character after it, some characters seem to recover from the no tech animation too fast. But for those it does work well with, it covers 2 out of the 3 options. As if they did a ledge jump they'll get footstooled and if not, you'll jump back and punish a potential roll. Only getup attack is safe from it if I'm correct.

 

[Nobie]

It would help to define these archetypes and playstyles before arguing over who's what. I've come to understand rushdown as a form of offense characterized by overwhelming the opponent in the neutral, invading their space, and racking up damage with quick, safe approaches. Characters I can think of who do this are Fox, Pikachu, Sheik, Mario, and Diddy. Now, that isn't to say that these characters can ONLY perform rushdown. That would be silly and it would make the meta inherently less deep. It just means that's a viable playstyle for them.

With that in mind, I think we should categorize characters into a venn diagram or something like this? It's not perfect and doesn't have all the characters yet, but it's a start.

I started trying to fit more characters into this venn diagram, and then ran into a roadblock: Falco.

He doesn't excel in any one category, but it feels weird to call him an all-rounder the way that Mario or Pit are.

 

[Jexulus]

I started trying to fit more characters into this venn diagram, and then ran into a roadblock: Falco.

He doesn't excel in any one category, but it feels weird to call him an all-rounder the way that Mario or Pit are.

The current categories are a start; as we continue to build it and analyze the characters, we'll have to separate/introduce categories to be more specific. Zoning and Spacing, for example. In order to fit in Falco and other outliers, we'll need to expand our parameters beyond these three.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I started trying to fit more characters into this venn diagram, and then ran into a roadblock: Falco.

He doesn't excel in any one category, but it feels weird to call him an all-rounder the way that Mario or Pit are.

Falco is footsies imp. He has great normals (Jab, Bair, Fair, etc...)

I don't think the labeling of the Venn diagram properly represents the Archetypes in a fighting game

It would help to define these archetypes and playstyles before arguing over who's what. I've come to understand rushdown as a form of offense characterized by overwhelming the opponent in the neutral, invading their space, and racking up damage with quick, safe approaches. Characters I can think of who do this are Fox, Pikachu, Sheik, Mario, and Diddy. Now, that isn't to say that these characters can ONLY perform rushdown. That would be silly and it would make the meta inherently less deep. It just means that's a viable playstyle for them.

With that in mind, I think we should categorize characters into a venn diagram or something like this? It's not perfect and doesn't have all the characters yet, but it's a start.

Rushdown, punishment, and zoning being the main categories? Nah. And I don't think a Venn diagram would be effective in naming all the archetypes a character can go through (from rushdown, grappling, lockdown/pressure, to zoning, turtling (aggressive and passive), hit and run, etc...) I think a list would be better imo.

 

[FullMoon]

Playing Greninja as rushdown will only result in tears and it's not for the opponent, I can say that much. He just doesn't have the frame data to be as aggressive as a rushdown character can be, he does have the mobility though.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Those Marth and Lucina placements.... I think we have beat that bush plenty...

Is this referring to the thing 6WX made?
If yes, yeah, it hurts my eyes, too.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What the heck tweek?????

Anybody like to dissect this because all I see is over aggressive tweek getting his disadvantaged state heavily exploited by earth's ridiculous positional advantage game.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

What the heck tweek?????

Anybody like to dissect this because all I see is over aggressive tweek getting his disadvantaged state heavily exploited by earth's ridiculous positional advantage game.

Here's my analysis. Earth is a fantastic player. He, like Larry Lurr with Fox, makes a character that I don't care about look like the most fun character in the game.

 

[TDK]

I think if we're going to do a playstyle analysis chart, we need a "none of the above" category. I can already think of two characters that could be in it:

EDIT: is definitely a non-specific archetype

 

[Jexulus]

I think if we're going to do a playstyle analysis chart, we need a "none of the above" category. I can already think of two characters that could be in it:

wat

Of course they have a playstyle. If they don't fit our current parameters, then we analyze what players like to do, see if it coincides with attributes demonstrated by other known playstyles, and designate it adequately if it doesn't fit any known categories.

EDIT: I realize you were saying they don't fit into any current ones, but I'm simply pointing out that our categories are far from comprehensive at the present moment.

 

[NairWizard]

Mario is not a so-called "rushdown" character. The term rushdown character doesn't even make any sense to me, but I assume we use it to mean a character who wants to constantly apply pressure throughout a match instead of sitting back and waiting for the opponent to make a move. I definitely don't see Mario fitting that description.

Yes, it's true that Mario's low-startup moves and pseudocombos encourage him to be in close proximity to his opponent, but that doesn't mean he's trying to get there all the time. In fact, trying to get close to his opponent costs Mario quite a bit because he's susceptible to getting walled out. Every time he chooses a defensive option like roll or airdodge or spotdodge to get past an opponent's inevitably larger hitboxes, Mario risks getting hit, and possibly killed. It's just not always worth it to go in.

Once Mario gets a lead on you he has no incentive to approach because he has some of the best out of shield options in the game and a reflector. You have to pry Mario's shield off him (grab) because he doesn't care how well you're spacing. His SHAD game is also wicked powerful because of his lagless aerials, so just in case you do start grabbing him he's got an answer to that too. Heck. Mario just spacing up-smashes with his back to the opponent is hella difficult for some characters to get past (see: Pikachu).

It should feel intuitively wrong to call a character with one of the game's best defense games a "rushdown" character.

As a quick and dirty example, about 50% of Anti's Mario play involves reacting to misses and whiff punishing.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Here's my analysis. Earth is a fantastic player. He, like Larry Lurr with Fox, makes a character that I don't care about look like the most fun character in the game.

Why did he dominate tweek like that though??? What did he/tweek do for that to happen like it did?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Perhaps it's an uncommon opinion, but I believe Falcon is better suited as a bait and punish character as opposed to the rush-down archetype. Seeing as Shady Shaymin merged grappling in with punish, I feel that it is all the more necessary to re-institute Falcon.

The most agreed upon front-runners of the rush-down archetype would seem to be Fox and Pikachu. Both characters have the ability to pressure from a distance, but much prefer to be in the opponents face. Neither character does particularly well against shields and grabs don't do much for them after low percents. Their means of killing generally involves finding a hole in the the opponents defenses and sneaking in an Up Smash or set-up into a Usmash (which generally consists of a falling aerial or tech-chase).

Falcon works a bit differently. While he still does enjoy being in his opponents face, he can't force approaches or pressure from a distance. However unlike the previous two characters, Falcon excels with grabs. It's not uncommon for him to rack up 20-30% off of a grab at low percents, and it's likely he'll be able to secure a kill from a read off of a throw. However, without that kind of set-up, securing kills with Falcon is much different than that of killing with Pikachu or Fox. Of the options he has, his only truly safe kill option consists of bair (and arguably an offstage dair). His other tools consist of fsmash, dsmash, raptor boost, and bthrow. Albeit, none of these are particularly safe on whiff and there's no real set-ups into any of them. That's not to say that his other moves don't kill, but the unlisted tools tend to be better suited for specific situations. Point is, when killing with pretty much anything other than bair, Falcon is going off of a read.

It is my understanding that is the way a bait and punish playstyle works...To put the enemy into an unfavorable situation and then punishing them for choosing the wrong option. As mentioned earlier, grappling was merged with the bait & punish category and obtaining grabs generally follows a similar set of rules. Seeing as Falcon is reliant on grabs, I feel as though this point only makes my argument more compelling.

Of course, this is only my opinion and I would expect there to be differing perspectives on the subject. As such, I would love to hear them.

 

[C0rvus]

Imo Diddy is a zoner. His zone control is on par if not better than most sword characters. Disjointed fair, ridiculous dtilt, banana, banana, banana... banana? You could pressure with him, but Marth can pressure as well. That isn't their primary mode of play at top level. Zoners focus on controlling space, while rushdown characters excel in taking space. Diddy can kinda do both...?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Falcon should be defensive, I agree. I actually believe Falcon's garbage if you play him as an aggro character.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Imo Diddy is a zoner. His zone control is on par if not better than most sword characters. Disjointed fair, ridiculous dtilt, banana, banana, banana... banana? You could pressure with him, but Marth can pressure as well. That isn't their primary mode of play at top level. Zoners focus on controlling space, while rushdown characters excel in taking space. Diddy can kinda do both...?

Diddy has better frame data on his aerials and ground pokes than Marth, as well as better ground mobility. Because of this he can perform rushdown pressure much better than marth who is more centered around zoning. Though you are right, Diddy has excellent zoning capability on top of that. He also has a nice punish game thanks to banana, ledge traps, and down tilt. This is why I categorize him as an all-arounder.

 

[DJBor]

^ why diddy is top tier
Mario is not rushdown, he's all-around. Ness, Toon Link, and Pikachu are also all-around for an example. They kinda do everything good enough, but don't have a singular focus (except maybe mario with getting a grab)
Diddy is... well, what is he? He seems to be a rushdown, but banana alone seems to place him as a punisher. And he's not fully all-around, because what sort of defense does he have outside of basic shielding?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

anytime someone saids Mario is a all-rounder, I can't help but think," how can Mario be a all-arounder if he can't zone???"

I think another category to consider for Mario is brawler or something. He's not zoning anyone out. Sure, he has a projectile, but it's garbage.

An all-rounder for me is *. Asterisk by pit because idk how I feel about him either.

 

[TDK]

Alright, gonna talk about a few characters I've had trouble classifying:


How do you quantify this character? Without monados, he's an extremely slow... zoner? if you look at his base traits he's an all arounder, but his moveset doesn't really fit with any core archetype at all. He can't Zone because his moves are so slow, he can't rush down because his moves are so slow, I guess he'd be a bait and punishment character but he himself isn't fast enough to reliably do that.

With Mondados, everything goes crazy. Speed Shulk is suddenly capable of being rushdown, Buster Shulk can be an effective grappler, Shield Shulk can Zone, et cetera. With the monados, Shulk can be everything, which is why it's so hard to give him a specific archetype.


Lucario's playstyle is like no other character. How do you classify a character who wins by being beaten within an inch of their life and then win the neutral four times and win the game? I'd say he's an all-arounder, but like Shulk, he's generally sluggish. He's probably best as a bait and punish character, but only at high %. There's no "put the controller down until you get above 120 and then outplay your opponent twice a stock" option.


I know literally nothing about this character.


How to you classify characters whos toolkits are so underwhelming or underdeveloped that they can't do anything most of the time?

 

[Eugene Wang]

is best described as a dynamic character. He can take up one of five monado arts, potentially turning into a super fast combo character, a swordsman with super shield pressure and damage racking, a strong recoverer, a light strong hitter, or a mighty glacier that can escape certain combos. He's also super technical, with all those cancels and whatnot.

is probably an all-rounder with a comeback gimmick.

is a zoner, but the holes in his tools means he must use bait and punish to win games against competent opponents.

should be mix-up, but he lacks ways to force the opponent to approach, or approach himself.

is well-rounded, but he's master of none.

should be bait and punish, but she lacks the mobility to weave around and be in any position to do both.

 

[Y2Kay]

This should be pretty obvious to everyone, but I want to reiterate:

Lucario mains do not actually play to lose. Lucario would rather kill you with 30% rather than 200%.

We don't stop using the shield button because we have aura to fall back on. Lucario's aura is a powerful tool, not a crutch. In fact, what separates the great Lucario players such as Motsunabe from the rest of the pack are their ability to use Low aura Lucario.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Alright, gonna talk about a few characters I've had trouble classifying:


How do you quantify this character? Without monados, he's an extremely slow... zoner? if you look at his base traits he's an all arounder, but his moveset doesn't really fit with any core archetype at all. He can't Zone because his moves are so slow, he can't rush down because his moves are so slow, I guess he'd be a bait and punishment character but he himself isn't fast enough to reliably do that.

With Mondados, everything goes crazy. Speed Shulk is suddenly capable of being rushdown, Buster Shulk can be an effective grappler, Shield Shulk can Zone, et cetera. With the monados, Shulk can be everything, which is why it's so hard to give him a specific archetype.


Lucario's playstyle is like no other character. How do you classify a character who wins by being beaten within an inch of their life and then win the neutral four times and win the game? I'd say he's an all-arounder, but like Shulk, he's generally sluggish. He's probably best as a bait and punish character, but only at high %. There's no "put the controller down until you get above 120 and then outplay your opponent twice a stock" option.


I know literally nothing about this character.


How to you classify characters whos toolkits are so underwhelming or underdeveloped that they can't do anything most of the time?

Shulk is a stance character because he can change his character properties at will.

Lucario is a hybrid of rubber-band and all-rounder, or turtler I think. He doesn't really want to approach.

Bowser Jr. Is a utility character who uses numerous weapons to beat his opponents. He's all-rounder too.

Falco is footsies.

Puff is turtler.

Mii brawler is a caged bird like his brethren. #FreeTheMiis.

 

[Y2Kay]

is basically forced to play bait and punish until he has high enough aura, because he has no safe moves with low aura besides Aura sphere.

Once he does get the aura energy he needs, he can safely wall you out with moves Like Aura Sphere, Force Palm, and forward tilt. As I'm sure you know, the hit boxes on these moves are not only respectable (or humongous) in size and have good killing power.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Shulk is the text book definition of a dynamic character, I'd say he doesn't fit any of the categories described in Shady Shaymin venn diagram. He can be a bait and punish character, a spacer, a camper, a damage dealer, and a zoner among others with his monado arts.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Das Koopa

Patrino used Fox alongside Ryu at PPT.