Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LRodC]

I just had a very interesting thought.
What do you guys think the top level reps of your character should implement more/less in order to reach higher levels of success?

Less molesting would probably be a good start.

 

[Yoshister]

Less molesting would probably be a good start.

Way too soon, mate.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I just had a very interesting thought.
What do you guys think the top level reps of your character should implement more/less in order to reach higher levels of success?

ZA WARUDO would probably be the only way Ganon sees any actual success at the top level.

Though I'd personally settle for King Crimson.

 

[Ninety]

I just had a very interesting thought.
What do you guys think the top level reps of your character should implement more/less in order to reach higher levels of success?

Well, Dath has room to improve in his technical flubs -- missed techs, SD's and the like. His set against Mr. R at CEO was heartbreaking, man.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

LRodC I completely understand the frustration and I agree, but that was pretty inappropriate.

In response to FeelMeUp , the first Diddy main I see who uses fully charged peanut popgun as a shield break punish gets my love and support. If they use charged smash attacks instead, then they're not real to me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Trela is in a rough spot. In his area he is the strongest. His opponents aren't on his level. They aren't playing optimally or abusing strong runaway so he isnt getting used to what really high level top players will do to him. He's need to face more opponents that are willing to run and play keepaway. He needs more exposure to Ryus bad matches so he becomes more well rounded.

 

[Y2Kay]

This thread has nothing to gain from talking about Hyuga's situation right now. Talking about how this serious offense is going to affect the game's meta - especially this soon - is insensitive and trivializes the issue if you ask me.

 

[FeelMeUp]

In my opinion, the 3 best Sheiks to note are VoiD/Mr. R/ZeRo, but all of them have their own issues. I'll give 3 or so good and bad for each on the off chance that someone can relay it.
Mr. R is too afraid to edgeguard characters with bad recoveries, doesn't needlecamp, and doesn't utilize dtilt or ftilt enough for earlier kills so he ends up relying on bouncing fish too much. But he has the best ledge trapping, neutral, shield crossups/rolls, and "off the ledge" game of all the Sheiks.
VoiD doesn't needle enough and is too insistent on playing aggressive even when it clearly isn't working. His ledge trapping isn't all that amazing and his neutral could use work. But he has the best conversions, killing potential, and offstage game/movement of all the Sheiks.
ZeRo was too used to playing his own prepatch game and now is really behind with combos and Sheik's kill setups. He needs to work on using more of her tools instead of just a handful while learning the best ways to kill SAFELY. But he has the best needle game of any Sheik BY FAR, makes some matchups look utterly impossible(vs Fox, vs Ness, vs Falcon), possesses an amazing dash to shield game, and boasts both a godlike neutral and offstage game to boot.

 

[Murlough]

I don't really have a whole lot to say about Aba. His Mewtwo has gotten so clean its scary. Practicing against Diddy would be almost all I can think of. Either that or don't pull a woefully underprepared Rosa to face the monkey. Seriously, that was so heartbreaking to watch it was almost funny.

I don't know much about the Japanese scene so I have no clue if there are any notable Diddy's there to train against.

 

[Ffamran]

Seems all of the streamed matches were uploaded: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgdfmgxaNs6x3tK2XJHrrAw/featured. One of them is incomplete and it's VoiD and ZeRo's loser semis set. So, if you want to use sets to study and talk about, there you go.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Seems all of the streamed matches were uploaded: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgdfmgxaNs6x3tK2XJHrrAw/featured. One of them is incomplete and it's VoiD and ZeRo's loser semis set. So, if you want to use sets to study and talk about, there you go.

rewatching VoiD vs Kame and man.....
VoiD completely THREW that set.....

another important thing to note:
People are putting too much into these results "because they're EVO."
I think we should keep WTFox and CEO in our heads longer than this one.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Larry's 'optimal' Fox playstyle - strongly vertical and combo/juggle based - doesn't work out in all matchups. When that happens he seems to lack a coherent Plan B with Fox and typically switches to DK like he tends to do against Ally and Abadango. It never actually helped him though because DK as a secondary simply fails to cover Fox' difficult matchups and DK honestly just generally sucks in smash 4.

NAKAT showed us how it can be done when he nearly took out the eventual EVO 2016 champion relatively early by playing more defensively, staying on the ground more and using a lot of spaced back air [especially when he had the lead]. It's a more conservative approach to matchups that's important to implement against characters Fox can't just easily juggle. I've yet to see Larry play that way and I think it's gonna be crucial if he wants to actually win a major.

 

[Rizen]

I just had a very interesting thought.
What do you guys think the top level reps of your character should implement more/less in order to reach higher levels of success?

players should use more bombs for stage control. Planting bombs and soft throws make rushdowns on Link much harder.

 

[Radical Larry]

players should use more bombs for stage control. Planting bombs and soft throws make rushdowns on Link much harder.

Well, not only planting Bombs, but using Bombs as a way to increase the range or decrease the range between Link and the opponent both work. If I end up using Boomerang, I'll almost immediately Smash Throw a Bomb afterward just to apply additional pressure, shield stun or damage. There's a lot of things that Link can do with combos just through Bombs alone.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Doesn't link have a bomb -> footstool -> FF uncharged arrow semi-infinite, or at least something that works until they're in kill % for a charged fsmash?

 

[Radical Larry]

Doesn't link have a bomb -> footstool -> FF uncharged arrow semi-infinite, or at least something that works until they're in kill % for a charged fsmash?

Well I'd certainly like to test that out myself. If it's a semi-infinite, I think it's a 50/50 semi.

However, aside from that, Link can benefit from the sudden Pivot F-Smash technique since he can space F-Smash 1 as a tipper. Really decent tech for a character like him.

 

[Man Li Gi]

The whole Hyuga thing and discussing it now or here in this specific thread may be a bit off, but simply mentioning it doesn't make it too soon to ever discuss.

My post tho isn't necessarily for what he did, but consequences he incurred. I feel as he was steadily climbing up people's personal ranks when he started to perform pretty well outside of Mexico. I mean, he was the homie most of time for Mexico.

I also wonder how his transgressions will affect the TL perception. You can say that Hyuga pretty much strong armed discussions about TL with his strong performances. That is ssomething that will be missed for me (after meeting him and speaking to him, yes i speak pretty decent spanish, at MM4, I was surprised to hear about this as I had drinks with him myself, but that's for another time).

Alas, you must atone for your sins. You may be referred to the likes of Zelgadis for the rest of your career. Damn dude.

 

[Rizen]

Doesn't link have a bomb -> footstool -> FF uncharged arrow semi-infinite, or at least something that works until they're in kill % for a charged fsmash?

http://smashboards.com/threads/link...rmative-quotes-can-be-found-in-the-op.379659/
"We can link together Nair locks, and here's how. The first Nair lock can be done in any way you want, e.g. SH/FH bomb throw down to footstool (it should go without saying to use the SH version of the footstool, not the FH version) then Nair at the peak of the footstool to FF the Nair asap (i.e. the very moment you stop rising and start to fall, hit down). At this point, the only way to get the next Nair lock is to immediately bomb pull, dash in, SH/FH, return the joystick to neutral and z-drop the bomb as you are jumping (i.e. the 'instant z-drop' - look it up in the AT thread) so that the bomb is within the opponent's hurtbox, the bomb will blow up on the next frame allowing you to footstool them (because of cause there is no Zair when you do the instant z-drop), and then the Nair to FF is the same.

Depending on the character this can be done multiple times, but will eventually stop working when the sourspot Nair starts hitting too hard. The only thing holding you back is your own tech skill.
I should note one more thing before I finish. Because you are able to act immediately after the z-drop it may be tempting to throw out that footstool immediately; only you shouldn't. If you footstool them too close to the ground this gives you less time to get the Nair. Resist the temptation; you have plenty of time to get the footstool."
Quoting @Fox Is Openly Deceptive

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The whole Hyuga thing and discussing it now or here in this specific thread may be a bit off, but simply mentioning it doesn't make it too soon to ever discuss.

My post tho isn't necessarily for what he did, but consequences he incurred. I feel as he was steadily climbing up people's personal ranks when he started to perform pretty well outside of Mexico. I mean, he was the homie most of time for Mexico.

I also wonder how his transgressions will affect the TL perception. You can say that Hyuga pretty much strong armed discussions about TL with his strong performances. That is ssomething that will be missed for me (after meeting him and speaking to him, yes i speak pretty decent spanish, at MM4, I was surprised to hear about this as I had drinks with him myself, but that's for another time).

Alas, you must atone for your sins. You may be referred to the likes of Zelgadis for the rest of your career. Damn dude.

Just got off work and missed pretty much everything about evo, what exactly happened with Hyuga?

Also, where can I find the top 64/32/16?

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Just got off work and missed pretty much everything about evo, what exactly happened with Hyuga?

Also, where can I find the top 64/32/16?

TLDR Hyuga sexually harassed VikkiKitty and A. Was dropped from VGBC and B. Banned from US and Australian tournaments for however long. RIP Toon Link.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgdfmgxaNs6x3tK2XJHrrAw Link to the channel with VODS.

Overall, I think Hyuga's absence will certainly hurt TL's metagame, due to him being the best Toon Link by far. However, as other Toon Links start climbing the ranks, advancements could be made. I mean, BasK 3xA (?) got 33rd at Evo, which is only a place before Hyuga. Then again, Hyuga had to face Zero, but that's beside the point. All I can hope for is Toon Link players watch Hyuga VODs and learn from his setups and play style, and learn from his gameplay before his possible return.

On the bright side, Hyuga can compete in Europe, apparently? Dream isn't dead. Only in the hospital right now.

 

[Yoshister]

TLDR Hyuga sexually harassed VikkiKitty and A. Was dropped from VGBC and B. Banned from US and Australian tournaments for however long. RIP Toon Link.

Actually, he sexually assaulted her while he was drunk.
She and her boyfriend took him in for the night because they didn't want him wandering around Las Vegas drunk out of his mind.

Anyhoo, to keep this relevant...
Link's down smash is good, right?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

TLDR Hyuga sexually harassed VikkiKitty and A. Was dropped from VGBC and B. Banned from US and Australian tournaments for however long. RIP Toon Link.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgdfmgxaNs6x3tK2XJHrrAw Link to the channel with VODS.

Overall, I think Hyuga's absence will certainly hurt TL's metagame, due to him being the best Toon Link by far. However, as other Toon Links start climbing the ranks, advancements could be made. I mean, BasK 3xA (?) got 33rd at Evo, which is only a place before Hyuga. Then again, Hyuga had to face Zero, but that's beside the point. All I can hope for is Toon Link players watch Hyuga VODs and learn from his setups and play style, and learn from his gameplay before his possible return.

On the bright side, Hyuga can compete in Europe, apparently? Dream isn't dead. Only in the hospital right now.

Oh... Well, good luck to Hyuga then with the drinking issues, I hope VikkiKitti is ok
Alcohol changes the way you think but there are limits and something like this is not ok, but this doesn't really have anything to do with smash 4. Hopefully TLs results don't drop off entirely, the board was just starting to consider him high tier.

Links downsmash only has 2 active frames but it comes out rather fast compared to his other moves at frame 9, does a good amount of damage, kills pretty well, and is great at stuffing out ground based approaches. I still prefer dtilt until around 50 where it stops comboing into things

 

[NairWizard]

I just had a very interesting thought.
What do you guys think the top level reps of your character should implement more/less in order to reach higher levels of success?

I was going to write up a list of things that ESAM could do to be a better Pikachu player but deleted it in my frustration.

I think "play neutral patiently without technical flubs or charging up-smash at kill %" would be an accurate summation, though.

 

[Radical Larry]

TheGoodGuava Link's Down Smash is really, really good against opponents like Cloud and Doc for the back hit, and then characters like the lightweights and characters with good recoveries in the front. It can be safe on block at the tip of both hits since it can be canceled easily, and it's amazing for adding onto shield pressure. Hitting the sweetspot of either hits is very deadly, and D-Smash is pretty great as a kill move or a kill setup, or even a 2-Frame Punish if it hits opponents with the back hit.

There's so much more to the attack than one believes.

 

[Bowserboy3]

and DK honestly just generally sucks in smash 4

I think that's a bit of a big over-exaggeration there. Sure, DK doesn't cover Fox's poor matchups very well (if at all), but to say DK sucks in Smash 4 is a bold statement.

He's one of, if not the best super heavyweight in the game, and an effective one at that. His incredible Back Air is a multi purpose move, working as an approach option, approach stopper, a combo move, and a KO move. His Up Air also works in a similar way, being a great juggle tool, combo tool, or KO/finishing move. His mobility is surprisingly great for a character of his archetype, and the Ding Dong is something that, like Aura or a tipper, can change the tide of a match into DK's favour at ANY situation.

Sure he has his flaws, such as being big, and having a poor vertical recovery, but it's a huge thing to come out and say he sucks.

 

[Radical Larry]

I think that's a bit of a big over-exaggeration there. Sure, DK doesn't cover Fox's poor matchups very well (if at all), but to say DK sucks in Smash 4 is a bold statement.

He's one of, if not the best super heavyweight in the game, and an effective one at that. His incredible Back Air is a multi purpose move, working as an approach option, approach stopper, a combo move, and a KO move. His Up Air also works in a similar way, being a great juggle tool, combo tool, or KO/finishing move. His mobility is surprisingly great for a character of his archetype, and the Ding Dong is something that, like Aura or a tipper, can change the tide of a match into DK's favour at ANY situation.

Sure he has his flaws, such as being big, and having a poor vertical recovery, but it's a huge thing to come out and say he sucks.

Other than Ding Dong, he has an overall poor aerial combo game, a lot of his attacks are very laggy, he has absolutely no means to deal with projectiles, especially the kind that Link and Toon Link use, and DK also has a lot of very unsafe attacks. And that recovery is dangerous against opponents who will go for a meteor above DK. While he's not necessarily a bad character by any means--he's great, actually--he's just not on the level of Bowser, who is probably the best Super Heavy right now due to his aerial game being better and his mobility definitely being better than DK's mobility, and Bowser being able to actually deal with projectiles via his own moves that allow him to shift his hitbox or block it altogether.

DK doesn't suck, he's just not the best Super Heavy. He's still around middle tier and near the middle of it, too.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

DK is not terrible per say, but he certainly isn't fantastic. What's he got, Ding Dong at specific percent ranges, he's got Cargo Up Throw in general, he's got that Cargo Down Throw thing at the ledge, Back Air which is his greatest single move.

And he has terrible vertical recovery, meaning you can spike him at like 30% from a decent position and he's dead, He gets combo'd so hard and stuff.

Ryu has combos and a spike, therefore not covering Fox very well. Sheik despite not having a spike has an incredible combo game and edge guarding, and FThrow Bouncing fish works at pretty high percents, etc.

TBH Rosa would be a pretty good secondary. My thoughts though.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Other than Ding Dong, he has an overall poor aerial combo game, a lot of his attacks are very laggy, he has absolutely no means to deal with projectiles, especially the kind that Link and Toon Link use, and DK also has a lot of very unsafe attacks. And that recovery is dangerous against opponents who will go for a meteor above DK. While he's not necessarily a bad character by any means--he's great, actually--he's just not on the level of Bowser, who is probably the best Super Heavy right now due to his aerial game being better and his mobility definitely being better than DK's mobility, and Bowser being able to actually deal with projectiles via his own moves that allow him to shift his hitbox or block it altogether.

DK doesn't suck, he's just not the best Super Heavy. He's still around middle tier and near the middle of it, too.

The problem is, DK gets used more than Bowser, and also has far more results. While minimal, DK does also land better than Bowser due to his better air speed, and not having to hard commit to laggy or overly punishable aerial (while still punishable, his Nair and Dair are leagues safer than Bowser's).

Back to DK's Back Air, it also beats most projectiles too, which is something to keep in mind.

You're right though, DK is around mid tier, which is still really good (being mid tier in Smash 4 is much better than being mid tier in Brawl, for example). My point is, he doesn't suck, and he's far from it. DK hasn't really sucked in any Smash game (other than 64). He's been underwhelming at times, but he's never really sucked. Smash 4 DK is definitely his best iteration to date. He has some flaws, but he now has enough tools or strengths that make him less weighted towards those flaws.

 

[Radical Larry]

The problem is, DK gets used more than Bowser, and also has far more results. While minimal, DK does also land better than Bowser due to his better air speed, and not having to hard commit to laggy or overly punishable aerial (while still punishable, his Nair and Dair are leagues safer than Bowser's).

Back to DK's Back Air, it also beats most projectiles too, which is something to keep in mind.

You're right though, DK is around mid tier, which is still really good (being mid tier in Smash 4 is much better than being mid tier in Brawl, for example). My point is, he doesn't suck, and he's far from it. DK hasn't really sucked in any Smash game (other than 64). He's been underwhelming at times, but he's never really sucked. Smash 4 DK is definitely his best iteration to date. He has some flaws, but he now has enough tools or strengths that make him less weighted towards those flaws.

I agree that he's the best that he's ever been in Smash in 4, but the worst incarnation of DK has to be from Melee (I think he should be behind Roy, to be fair). I digress though, and I'll go back on topic and state that DK, while he himself has better aerial speed, doesn't have too good of a grounded speed. In terms of throws, DK has a kill throw while Bowser has a kill command grab attack, but DK has a significantly better time killing opponents with his Back Throw than Bowser does in his deadliest throws.

I still agree, DK is a wonderful character, but don't count DK's overall representation as being "getting used more than" Bowser. Remember, when Bowser got his U-Throw combos (which are U-Air, N-Air and U-Spec), he's been getting a surge of play for him. And considering we're at 1.1.6 now, we should truly just count 1.1.6 representation, which might go to whomever. Remember, every patch is different, so if the characters are changed, the results of tournaments using prior patches are negligible.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I agree that he's the best that he's ever been in Smash in 4, but the worst incarnation of DK has to be from Melee (I think he should be behind Roy, to be fair). I digress though, and I'll go back on topic and state that DK, while he himself has better aerial speed, doesn't have too good of a grounded speed. In terms of throws, DK has a kill throw while Bowser has a kill command grab attack, but DK has a significantly better time killing opponents with his Back Throw than Bowser does in his deadliest throws.

I still agree, DK is a wonderful character, but don't count DK's overall representation as being "getting used more than" Bowser. Remember, when Bowser got his U-Throw combos (which are U-Air, N-Air and U-Spec), he's been getting a surge of play for him. And considering we're at 1.1.6 now, we should truly just count 1.1.6 representation, which might go to whomever. Remember, every patch is different, so if the characters are changed, the results of tournaments using prior patches are negligible.

DK's Ground speed is above average, and only slightly slower than Bowser. However, DK doesn't make use of his ground speed. He used his top tier air speed for approach, something he puts to far better use than his ground speed, and something that is more versatile than his and Bowser's air speed, especially when considering the usage of DK's Back Air.

Both DK and Bowser have a throw to KO confirm, which is nice.

If we are going just off of 1.1.6, then DK still outperforms Bowser in both popularity/usage and results. The image in the spoiler is slightly outdated now, but we have seen more DK than Bowser in tournament anyway since this, such as Larry Lurr and HIKARU in Japan (Ironically, HIKARU actually uses both DK and Bowser. However, the ratio of DK:Bowser usage for him is definitely weighted more towards DK, at least 65:35).

Spoiler: 1.1.6

But off topic a moment, you do make a good point about past patches and relevancy etc, which people need to pay attention to IMO. The most recent patch is always the best thing to look at. It's OK saying "X character has a fantastic results total". However, if that was from a previous patch, and in the latest patch said characters has noticeably less results, the past results mean little in practice.

 

[Radical Larry]

I can't argue with even the slightly outdated chart, but as time progresses, we'll get a more clear result in match-ups. In terms of tiers, though, I'll contest that Bowser and DK could be at the same position. They're both very good characters, very close to each other and have nearly similar match-ups, though one could be used better in certain match-ups than the other of course.

(Their vs Link Match-Ups are bad or them since Link does to them what he does to literally every other Super Heavyweight. Donkey Kong does better in that MU, though, thanks to his amazing aerial prowess.)

 

[Nobie]

Something else I noticed about Kamemushi:

Normally, the way to fight Mega Man is to get in his face, almost without exception. However, Kame's footstool jablock combo makes people SCARED to get too close. Suddenly, the opponent is trying to keep their distancr, and playing right into Mega Man's hands.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I just had a very interesting thought.
What do you guys think the top level reps of your character should implement more/less in order to reach higher levels of success?

Actually going to tournaments more than once in a blue moon.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think that's a bit of a big over-exaggeration there. Sure, DK doesn't cover Fox's poor matchups very well (if at all), but to say DK sucks in Smash 4 is a bold statement.

He's one of, if not the best super heavyweight in the game, and an effective one at that. His incredible Back Air is a multi purpose move, working as an approach option, approach stopper, a combo move, and a KO move. His Up Air also works in a similar way, being a great juggle tool, combo tool, or KO/finishing move. His mobility is surprisingly great for a character of his archetype, and the Ding Dong is something that, like Aura or a tipper, can change the tide of a match into DK's favour at ANY situation.

Sure he has his flaws, such as being big, and having a poor vertical recovery, but it's a huge thing to come out and say he sucks.

No, DK is legitimately a bad character in smash 4.

His huge hurtbox is a massive detriment in neutral that makes it extremely hard for DK to force his way through the opponent's close range options. When you have OoS options as poor as DK's you'll often find yourself getting pressured by characters that are normally easy to just block off with a shield. Bowser - who is a better character than DK in my opinion - at least has tough guy, a better jab and an a pretty OoS option with upB so he can fight back if somebody tries to do work on him. DK really doesn't have much of an answer except making the right guess which of his moves is best suited to beat the opponent's head on.

Back Air is far from incredible. It's in fact pretty bad for a fair because it forces DK into a lose-lose situation. Either he does a retreating bair in which case he corners himself into a disadvantaged position and we all know how terrible DK's disadvantage is. If he doesn't retreat it he becomes punishable and exposes the deadspot below him where he's completely defenseless. Since he can't really follow up on bair, simply shielding the move already buts DK at a disadvantage. He doesn't have any cross-up or mix-up options once he sticks his foot out.
His bair is kinda good for challenging mid-ranged attacks by sword-wielders, those matchups are usually the ones DK tends to do decently at too. But pretty much anything with good shield pressure, good juggles or a strong projectile game inherently has the advantage against DK and it's up to Ding Dong and PPUtilt whether DK manages to even it up or not. These two options essentially keep DK on life-support, he'd surely be low tier with it.

 

[BunbUn129]

I just had a very interesting thought.
What do you guys think the top level reps of your character should implement more/less in order to reach higher levels of success?

For MK's, they should lessen their reliance on ledge jumps. It's always been an issue for MK players in general--including myself--because we get comfortable with his multiple jumps. MK's ledge options as a whole are fairly slow and partially offset his recovery advantage, so mixing them up is vital against someone who's aware of this or is just good at ledge option coverage in general. Ito kept on opting for ledge jumps against Mr. R at EVO and he was getting mauled for it.

Also, MK's should be using elaborate traps as strong mix-ups a bit more often. It feels weird to say this, but after the nerf it's very important. Ito is already working on this, as always when it comes to pushing MK's combo and mix-up games, but Tyrant is sticking to more typical follow-ups that, while consistent, don't deal much damage. I've been experimenting with forward air lately, and the buff has some subtle applications. Fair lacks an auto-link, so if MK fast-falls opponents will fall out before the final hit. Fair does only 6% with little potential for true follow-ups.

I went back and watched Leo vs False at GOML. Leo did DA -> up air -> fast fall fair 1 and 2 -> landed and shielded Sheik's falling aerial -> d throw -> up air string -> nair, with the full string doing ~40%. Sheik could've air dodged between up air and fair, but MK would still be able to follow-up on her defensive option. If MK landed the full fair the combo would've done a much lower ~15%.

MK can also do DA -> SH up air at very low percents, bait an air dodge or landing aerial, and punish with a grab into further follow-ups. Such traps, when successful, do somewhere from 25-40%, possibly up to as much as 60%. While these set-ups involving SH up air and FF fair are not reliable, they are very rewarding as mix-ups similar to up air -> FF bair lock, and because MK can't rely on up air strings for damage as much as he used to, I feel it's important for an MK player to keep such options in mind because more common low % set-ups like d throw -> up smash, d throw -> DA -> fair, etc. don't deal much damage.

Also MK's perfect pivot is very useful as a simple micro-spacing option and needs to be used more. Leo demonstrated its utility when he played the character. MK's ground game is strong and the main reason is his movement, and his PP is somewhat underutilized. It helps quite a bit with punishing aerial approaches from characters like Ryu who have poor aerial acceleration, especially since MK gets good reward off of his burst options. Of course, MK has a few notable moves benefited by PP'ing, namely bair and up air: d throw -> PP bair, d throw -> PP back hit of up air, which can lead (read: not true combo) into bair, both of these set-ups leading into jab locks. D throw -> PP bair is a KO'ing 50/50 at the ledge against lighter characters--though I believe it needs a certain level of rage.

Tyrant also doesn't use up throw much outside of a stock cap. Often times, whenever Ito grabs someone facing the ledge, he opts for up throw because it does 2.5% more than d throw, and the extra damage is nice because d throw obviously won't lead into follow-ups from that position. Arguably up throw puts opponents in a worse spot than d throw in that case because the threat of SL and up air -> SL doesn't exist offstage.

Edit: some videos by Ito that show-case some elaborate post-patch punishes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-MpGFti_yo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhnte6XGOmU

I wish this guy would post a bit more often.

 

[|RK|]

I just had a very interesting thought.
What do you guys think the top level reps of your character should implement more/less in order to reach higher levels of success?

MikeKirby is already very good. I imagine more perfect pivot tilts would be useful. And probably a willingness to play with copy abilities more often (though I understand why he might not).

...Really, I just wish he could show off at more tournaments.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I just had a very interesting thought.
What do you guys think the top level reps of your character should implement more/less in order to reach higher levels of success?

For Peach I feel people need to be a lil more patient. Peach's moveset does not allow her to just go in and swinging as she please. Her neutral is mostly forcing a block or having your opponent wiff an attack where she can go in for a punish and take control. micro spacing is seriously important with thsi character and it's what she has to be playing from start to finish if neutral is reset or she can't get anymore hits.As of now most Peach players usually wanna move around and toss out spaced air attacks, or go in with typical dair approaches. Peach is not that safe on her wiff moves. A fast character can punish her for it if they are not blocking and playing a solid neutral. I see this happen alot. If the opponent is not blocking or did not leave themselves open, Peach really should not be really doing any of this stuff. She has to chill.

Also good use of turnips. I hardly see people get them when they have the chance. And just approach people with out one. This is too much of a risk people are getting. There is no protection infront of her to cover her slow/short ranged moves. And after a tunip hits, the players should be recatching it instead of following up with a Dash attack (unless its at Kill %). This type of play only makes waves at average locals/events. But tournaments with the big boys? I don't see Peach coming close to winning one at all unless players decided to chill.

 

[-Tornado-]

Now I don't know jack about Ryu at top-level play
But I wonder how it would do trying to incorporate more K.O. confirms besides TSRK

 

[Emblem Lord]

He has no other more consistent confirm. So what's the point and what would he even be confirming into and in what situations?

 

[-Tornado-]

He has no other more consistent confirm. So what's the point and what would he even be confirming into and in what situations?

Besides TSRK, I usually use a Soft Fair to transition into footstools, or right into Nair strings, usually ending with a meteor.
Again, don't know much about Ryu at top level.
EDIT: Probably mis-used "confirms" but I digress