Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ZTD | TECHnology]

The energy that the Meta Knight community puts into debating MUs and their place in the metagame should be redirected into actually advancing our metagame and revitalizing our boards. I also think some of you place too much emphasis on MUs, currently. Yes, they are important to consider but there isn't a single top level Meta Knight that is active on the boards right now; therefore much of what you guys are arguing is not entirely relevant. Many of our viewpoints differ drastically from say...Tyrant who has the results at top level. I would rather see us working together more here since newer players especially still use these boards for a reference point.

I see other character communities (especially the mid and low tiers) put FAR more effort into cohesion and development as a community. It would be nice to see that here.

If you want our results to increase, we need to be more cohesive. All I see is a series of debates here but then our own "Batcave" is empty. Almost all of you talk about how pointless it is to post in this thread anyway. Just some food for thought.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Did they learn it? I feel like we just haven't seen high level Docs in a while. Pretty sure people will still get bodied by a great Doc should we see one at that level again.

Due to his status of stuck between two stronger & closely related characters, Doc has among the worst representation out of any character, dedicated Doc mains are kind of rare but they're labbing all the tricks they can apply to surprise the opponent. Te character has a great amount of mixups & can punish any poor decision very hard. Its just a matter of quick analysis and adaptation, and from this point, the Doc player could push its punish games up to standards that would make Mario jealous.

While our neutral game isn't the best, there's still not enough respect to the character's options. Thanks to excellent autocancels on threatening moves like Bair or Nair, we can play a fairly good non commital aerial pressure game that lets us directly shift into anything we'd want to do right after in function of what the opponent does. The character's oos is also not respected enough for what it is: I mean for god's sake, a frame 3 reversable on shield UpB! It's among the strongest oof in game that can punish a lot of options, given that the Doc player just reacts fast enough to just punish a lot of moves. Cape has some kind of " worthless aside from reflecting " stigma going on but it's a bit better than people think, the lack of stall makes it kind of similar to a SH AC aerial, can be used from time to times if you either know your opponent will be empty hopping or you'll outframe him, you may have enough time to do something like a grab or upb or upsmash right after, not a lot of people are used to this move & it is often reacted poorly & lately, easy to capitalize off of that kind of reaction.

I could go on & on about the multiple tools that Doc has to trick his opponents, but it's just to say that this character has its ways to trick his opponents in case of matchup inexperience, even though he's fairly close to two characters.

The energy that the Meta Knight community puts into debating MUs and their place in the metagame should be redirected into actually advancing our metagame and revitalizing our boards. I also think some of you place too much emphasis on MUs, currently. Yes, they are important to consider but there isn't a single top level Meta Knight that is active on the boards right now; therefore much of what you guys are arguing is not entirely relevant. I would rather see us working together more here since newer players especially still use these boards for a reference point. If you want our results to increase, we need to be more cohesive. All I see is a series of debates here but then our own "Batcave" is empty. Almost all of you talk about how pointless it is to post in this thread anyway. Just some food for thought.

From my short amount of time spent looking at the Meta Knight community, i've been feeling the same towards it, and while it could be a good thing, in this precise case, it isn't. A lot of times, i've seen analysis of some of our disadvantageous matchups being simply judged as " This character's options overwhelms us in neutral quite a lot, to the point where we won't be given much opportunity to strike at all, definitly a 6/4 in the opponent's favor " , and that was it ?_?
There's a strong lack of people trying to develop counterplay against Meta Knight's harder matchups, and it may hurt the character's development in the future. I almost had the feeling some Meta Knight mains saw their mains as extremely linear & unable to actually pull off any sort of deep counterplay reliant on a shift in the neutral game, leaning towards a specific strategy that the character can pull off & is actually effective against another character, but then again, i'm not in their minds.

 

[ARGHETH]

So...here's Reflex's ideas on Wario's MUs

Spoiler: MUs

 

[Illuminose]

For reference, here's Nasubi's:

Spoiler

 

[Yonder]

People realized that Doc wasn't that bad when Nairo pulled him out in MLG to exploit Pikachu's bad MU against plumbers with mustache, so people learnt the MU and he's not as scary as it was.

I just think Mario is way,way more superior and thus Doc is irrelevant. People aren't trading speed, recovery, and better combos for more strength in this current meta.

How can you justify picking Doc over Mario atm?

At least Luigi counterpicks a few good characters. Granted otherwise, little reason to pick Luigi over Mario post patch (before both were on the same level of viability). Then again they aren't too similar...

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

For reference, here's Nasubi's:

Spoiler

LOL at "Let's Rock-Paper-Scisccors". He's not wrong though.

 

[lbrasz44]

So...here's Reflex's ideas on Wario's MUs

Spoiler: MUs

The structure of this list generally makes sense aside from some specific matchups I personally disagree with (I'm more privy to Sonic being even, possibly a slight advantage but that's just me and my scrub opinion so ignore this as I am definitely not on Reflex's level). For the most part, even on the Wario boards the general consensus on the character is that there really isn't a substantial amount of mu's aside from Cloud and Sheik where either Wario or his opponent has a distinctive advantage over one another. Look at the matchup thread, literally everyting is either a 40:60, 45:55, or 50:50 one way or the other so far.

Waft will always be a present factor, especially considering the 2 stock meta. Bite is one of the best command grabs in the game, he can live a long time thanks to his weight and biking, and his mobility and edgeguarding can capitalise on mistakes to press a good advantage. However his lack of range and reliable ways to kill early other than landing a waft, hard read or successfully edgeguard counteracts this so it comes down to who could execute their plan better in the match.

tldr- Wario is the mid-tieriest character to ever mid tier in this game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Note that Reflex also plays Ganon, so he actually has an idea of how that MU plays out, instead of just chalking it up as a win automatically. Ganon outranges Wario and walls him pretty decently, but Wario keeps the MU relatively evenish because he can stall for Waft and jank out a win that way.

 

[meticulousboy]

I just think Mario is way,way more superior and thus Doc is irrelevant. People aren't trading speed, recovery, and better combos for more strength in this current meta.

How can you justify picking Doc over Mario atm?

At least Luigi counterpicks a few good characters. Granted otherwise, little reason to pick Luigi over Mario post patch (before both were on the same level of viability). Then again they aren't too similar...

Those were the days: Luigi's being higher on the tier list than his brother all because of .

 

[aεrgiα]

For reference, here's Nasubi's:

Spoiler

are you sure you posted the right one? first of all its bayo at the top, and secondly, while its true wario vs wario is a 50/50 mu, i highly doubt anyone would put that on their match up spread :/

edit: it does say wario favour on 60:40 tho... i dunno just seems weird to me

 

[NewZen]

I just think Mario is way,way more superior and thus Doc is irrelevant. People aren't trading speed, recovery, and better combos for more strength in this current meta.

How can you justify picking Doc over Mario atm?

At least Luigi counterpicks a few good characters. Granted otherwise, little reason to pick Luigi over Mario post patch (before both were on the same level of viability). Then again they aren't too similar...

I can see this as a valid point at the higher levels, but at lower level tournaments (Locals, Weeklies, etc.), I've always noticed a discrepancy between how people tend to view versus /(In the Mario MU, that's all Mario, but with Doc, I'm not sure)-some people still note that he's basically about as "Cheesy", if not more, than Mario, given that he still has that level of unpredictability and rather strong air game with somewhat reliable KO options.

It's even to the point where some of the locals I've attended (About 7 States by this point) have also stated that he has God-tier Recovery of all things, because he has 3 options (Some of my closest friends even try and make this claim) to recover with, not realizing that his options are easy to gimp, require mashing for one to work as well as wasting a jump, and one of them is only dangerous if RNG comes into play. Again, this is at the Local level, but who knows.

 

[meleebrawler]

How can you justify picking Doc over Mario atm?

Better edgeguarding with Tornado (much easier to pull off than Cyclone as well).

 

[HeavyLobster]

How can you justify picking Doc over Mario atm?

Mario is the most boring character in the game, while Doc is actually fun. Doc also is far better at sealing stocks.

 

[meticulousboy]

Doc also is far better at sealing stocks.

This may be true, albeit Forward Air for both characters seems just as effective at taking stocks around the same time, just at different angles. Bear in mind that Mario requires spacing for only one move: Fsmash.

 

[NewZen]

Mario is the most boring character in the game, while Doc is actually fun. Doc also is far better at sealing stocks.

That doesn't sound like , , , , , , , or any of the cast of characters that people run around and say are "boring"...lol.

But really, the aspect of someone being "boring" really holds no ground because you can argue that a character that you play is either boring to watch or play (Seeing as you play Ganon, I could just go ahead and say that Ganon is boring because he doesn't do anything except rely on punishes for his overall gameplan) and comes off as incredibly biased, IMO.

 

[HeavyLobster]

That doesn't sound like , , , , , , , or any of the cast of characters that people run around and say are "boring"...lol.

But really, the aspect of someone being "boring" really holds no ground because you can argue that a character that you play is either boring to watch or play (Seeing as you play Ganon, I could just go ahead and say that Ganon is boring because he doesn't do anything except rely on punishes for his overall gameplan) and comes off as incredibly biased, IMO.

Boring characters, to me, are those who rely heavily on linear gameplans and guaranteed confirms, and there's little playstyle variation because certain tools dominate all others in your kit. Bowser, for example, is another character I'll play, and he would qualify as boring because his neutral is mostly jab/grab, and his gameplan is pretty darn binary most of the time, since most of the time his best option is to just grab. Ganondorf is very clearly less linear in gameplan when compared to Bowser because he has a wider variety of useful tools, and his optimal punishes are based on conditioning and reading the opponent as opposed to guaranteed grab combos. He has more tools in neutral, but each individual tool is generally weaker than Bowser's grab, making it easier to vary your playstyle without picking strictly inferior options. His optimal playstyle also varies more depending on the MU and the opponent's playstyle. Both of these characters basically rely on punishes, but Bowser's punish game is far more linear. So "most boring" is obviously an opinion, but the fact is that some characters are more linear while others are more varied in their overall gameplans in the same way that some characters are more or less technical.

 

[NewZen]

Boring characters, to me, are those who rely heavily on linear gameplans and guaranteed confirms, and there's little playstyle variation because certain tools dominate all others in your kit. Bowser, for example, is another character I'll play, and he would qualify as boring because his neutral is mostly jab/grab, and his gameplan is pretty darn binary most of the time, since most of the time his best option is to just grab. Ganondorf is very clearly less linear in gameplan when compared to Bowser because he has a wider variety of useful tools, and his optimal punishes are based on conditioning and reading the opponent as opposed to guaranteed grab combos. He has more tools in neutral, but each individual tool is generally weaker than Bowser's grab, making it easier to vary your playstyle without picking strictly inferior options. His optimal playstyle also varies more depending on the MU and the opponent's playstyle. Both of these characters basically rely on punishes, but Bowser's punish game is far more linear. So "most boring" is obviously an opinion, but the fact is that some characters are more linear while others are more varied in their overall gameplans in the same way that some characters are more or less technical.

I can see what you're getting at. It's just that whenever someone mentions, "A Character is boring", they're usually not really informative about what makes the character so boring in the first place, but even still, I can't see how being linear is mostly problematic-given that this is based upon a P2W environment, one could (Keyword there) also assume that having such a linear playstyle could be the most effective in this situation, and while Mario isn't the greatest character in the game, people consider him one of the best for a reason, and his linear playstyle and overall great frame data attribute to this.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I can see what you're getting at. It's just that whenever someone mentions, "A Character is boring", they're usually not really informative about what makes the character so boring in the first place, but even still, I can't see how being linear is mostly problematic-given that this is based upon a P2W environment, one could (Keyword there) also assume that having such a linear playstyle could be the most effective in this situation, and while Mario isn't the greatest character in the game, people consider him one of the best for a reason, and his linear playstyle and overall great frame data attribute to this.

Being linear isn't really a problem, apart from the fact that I feel it's easier to motivate yourself to master a character who's more varied and allows you to style more. If you can motivate yourself to practice just as hard with Cloud/Mario/etc. as with some other character, then there's no reason not to use them.

 

[PK Gaming]

So...here's Reflex's ideas on Wario's MUs

Spoiler: MUs

Pretty conservative matchup chart, but it looks good overall. Most of top tier are bad matchups, but Wario can go even with most of the cast by virtue of his design. Not enough Wario's are straight up camping and just going for the waft.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Pretty conservative matchup chart, but it looks good overall. Most of top tier are bad matchups, but Wario can go even with most of the cast by virtue of his design. Not enough Wario's are straight up camping and just going for the waft.

i don't think wario can straight neglect approaching an opponent when he has to account for fighting for the middle of the stage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm pretty sure that for any given character you would care to call boring, the people who actually use that character would disagree with you. (Case in point: I don't find Rosalina boring in the slightest because it's always fun to experiment with Luma placement and wombo combos.)

 

[TCT~Phantom]

,/,,

I find it interesting over the past few months we have seen that zoners are a very powerful playstyle in Smash 4. Villager's strenghts were already known with Ranai. He has absurd spacing, amazing edgeguarding, and great turtling. But lately, T Link, Mega Man, hell even Duck Hunt are on the rise. Duck Hunt has had consistent results in Japan, easily placing him as a mid tier if only looked at by results instead of theory (though his theory w his neutral is pretty solid). Hyuga and others are pushing Toon Link rather consistently. And we all know Kamemushi and Scatt are making waves with Mega Man.

Why do I bring this up? In a metagame full of counterpicking and balance, perhaps a pocket zoner could become a real thing. Zoners could prove to be useful secondaries in a meta where counterpicking characters is key, as it provides a whole new archetype to counterpick. Not just doing well in neutral, forcing a whole new game onto your opponent.

 

[FeelMeUp]

i don't think wario can straight neglect approaching an opponent when he has to account for fighting for the middle of the stage.

He doesn't really have to fight for the middle. Unless it's FD he can honestly just run away for waft for a long ass time.

 

[Ghostbone]

Mario is the opposite of a boring character.

The only limit to Mario's playstyle is your own creativity. A boring character is one with a linear playstyle that you can't really every diverge from.

 

[Nu~]

Mario is the opposite of a boring character.

The only limit to Mario's playstyle is your own creativity. A boring character is one with a linear playstyle that you can't really every diverge from.

Do we even have many characters that linear in smash 4?

 

[Greward]

Do we even have many characters that linear in smash 4?

diddy kong

 

[FeelMeUp]

diddy kong

prepatch, sure.

 

[C0rvus]

Do we even have many characters that linear in smash 4?

Most super heavies. Bowser and DK are sadly pretty linear.

 

[ARISTOS]

This boring discussion is boring, and all based on personal opinions. One person might think Mario is the bees-knees, and another might think he's simple garbage. Not sure it's all that relevant.

,/,,

I find it interesting over the past few months we have seen that zoners are a very powerful playstyle in Smash 4. Villager's strenghts were already known with Ranai. He has absurd spacing, amazing edgeguarding, and great turtling. But lately, T Link, Mega Man, hell even Duck Hunt are on the rise. Duck Hunt has had consistent results in Japan, easily placing him as a mid tier if only looked at by results instead of theory (though his theory w his neutral is pretty solid). Hyuga and others are pushing Toon Link rather consistently. And we all know Kamemushi and Scatt are making waves with Mega Man.

Why do I bring this up? In a metagame full of counterpicking and balance, perhaps a pocket zoner could become a real thing. Zoners could prove to be useful secondaries in a meta where counterpicking characters is key, as it provides a whole new archetype to counterpick. Not just doing well in neutral, forcing a whole new game onto your opponent.

Zoners got dunked on by Sheik; having her nerfed freed them up (though I think Rosa probably beats them all and survives on a lack of play).

Pocket zoning I think is a bit harder to do because zoning effectively requires a higher knowledge cap- projectiles are pretty weak in this game and if you do it mindlessly you get opened up quick. Only a couple dedicated mains have seemed to get far with zoners in Smash 4.

 

[NegaNixx]

Question, what are the different fighter archetypes?

A while ago someone posted a small write up of this which included things such as Zoner, Turtle, Offensive Mix-Up etc... What are the other standard types?

Would some types be considered sub types of those archetypes? Like having an Offensive Mix/Up (Archetype) grappler (sub type) as well as having a Turtle Grappler? Or would grappler be considered its own archetype?

 

[meleebrawler]

Question, what are the different fighter archetypes?

A while ago someone posted a small write up of this which included things such as Zoner, Turtle, Offensive Mix-Up etc... What are the other standard types?

Would some types be considered sub types of those archetypes? Like having an Offensive Mix/Up (Archetype) grappler (sub type) as well as having a Turtle Grappler? Or would grappler be considered its own archetype?

In my mind, there are three main archetypes in Smash 4, represented by the Miis: Brawler (good mobility/frame data and combo ability, but low spacing ability), Swordfighter (fight mainly with long disjointed moves, but at the cost of less effective frame data) and Gunner (able to fight at long distances but usually has poor mobility to escape). From there you can narrow down the playstyles, or find the ones that take aspects from some or all of those archetypes.

 

[De Wolfe]

What do people think of Bayonetta at the moment? She seems like the same bs to me. Yeah she doesnt convert into zero to deaths randomly but she still regularly gets 40% guaranteed combos with relative ease. Then she just finishes you off with the rest of her incredible neutral tools (full body dive kicks that can be aimed at any angle and are unpunishable on shield?) or her witch time counters which keep you second guessing all the time. Still feel like she isn't playing the same game as the rest of the cast.

 

[FeelMeUp]

What do people think of Bayonetta at the moment? She seems like the same bs to me. Yeah she doesnt convert into zero to deaths randomly but she still regularly gets 40% guaranteed combos with relative ease. Then she just finishes you off with the rest of her incredible neutral tools (full body dive kicks that can be aimed at any angle and are unpunishable on shield?) or her witch time counters which keep you second guessing all the time. Still feel like she isn't playing the same game as the rest of the cast.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smash_directional_influence

 

[aεrgiα]

could someone explain to me why the consensus after ceo is that counterpicks are the way to go? was it the fact that zinoto got 2nd with solo diddy, or the fact that aba got 4th with solo mewtwo(yes his mk/pac won him games, but also lost him some, and he lost the sets), mr.r &hyuga getting 5th with solo sheik and tl respectively, zero with solo diddy. iirc larry only went dk one set, which he lost, same as void with fox and saj with peach(next group in bracket are scatt,wrath, nietono and falln)... on the other side you have anti(whos always used multiple characters, but even he went mostly mario iirc), dabuz with his olimar(which helped against aba(but he also won (a?) game(s) with rosa, but didnt help vs anti imo), false and nakat(whos always used multiple characters). seriously, please tell me if ive missed something but i dont see how it proves we now have a counterpick meta, i mean we may well go that route but to me ceo definitely didnt prove it, maybe evo will, and i dont understand why its(mostly) treated as fact post-ceo.

 

[Djent]

is still very good. She has a rough (but winnable) Diddy matchup, and that's the only character I see beating her worse than 6:4. You might be able to DI out of her kill combos, but she still gets reasonable damage at low- and mid-%. Not to mention Witch Twist has clear utility outside of combos as well (OoS, good recovery, etc). I'm not sure I'd call her neutral "incredible," but it's definitely good (and was one thing people understated pre-nerf). Furthermore, I don't think she's done growing. Players such as ikep and saj have very much convinced me that there's still a lot left to explore with her. She could even sneak into the lower end of the top 10. The dev team did a great job at making her not stupid while allowing her to remain strong.

 

[|RK|]

could someone explain to me why the consensus after ceo is that counterpicks are the way to go? was it the fact that zinoto got 2nd with solo diddy, or the fact that aba got 4th with solo mewtwo(yes his mk/pac won him games, but also lost him some, and he lost the sets), mr.r &hyuga getting 5th with solo sheik and tl respectively, zero with solo diddy. iirc larry only went dk one set, which he lost, same as void with fox and saj with peach(next group in bracket are scatt,wrath, nietono and falln)... on the other side you have anti(whos always used multiple characters, but even he went mostly mario iirc), dabuz with his olimar(which helped against aba(but he also won (a?) game(s) with rosa, but didnt help vs anti imo), false and nakat(whos always used multiple characters). seriously, please tell me if ive missed something but i dont see how it proves we now have a counterpick meta, i mean we may well go that route but to me ceo definitely didnt prove it, maybe evo will, and i dont understand why its(mostly) treated as fact post-ceo.

Dabuz lost games with Olimar, too. I'm certain Abadango believes that his CPs were necessary, so I'd put him in the CP group.

Mr. R is looking for a secondary, VoiD's Fox won him a game, Larry's DK is critical to covering some of Fox's bad MUs, ZeRo's Sheik is rusty, but he's practicing her and Cloud, and finally, ANTi wouldn't have won without using his stable of CPs to throw off his opponents and make use of their weaknesses.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I've never thought of Mario as even remotely close to boring. He has simple, effective things yes, but the true test with Mario is whether you end up staying on that simple path or mastering his movement and branching out.

His movement, aerials, and general kit are so diverse that you can do a ton of stuff beyond the regular vanilla Mario stuff. There's something to be said about him honestly, I think he's quite dynamic and fun because of his movement and low-lag aerials. You start looking for openings with USmash because you realize that the invincibility lets you take active risks with the move (no need to put people above you, sometimes you can beat moves clean with it!) among other things.

Doc is engaging for a different reason, and it's mostly his ridiculous damage + satisfying Bair stuff, tbh. When you get in with Doc you usually rip into someone with a solid 30-40% string or perhaps you do 20% damage and get a reset or chance to read their next option to tack on more damage, and he's very good at that. They're very distinct in how they're fun, to me anyways. Doc is kind of like an adrenaline rush when you manage to get past the neutral state and into the advantage state, tbh.

 

[Aaron1997]

You can Add to the "counter pick zoner" list. If Abadango is playing him again, then he must see something great about using Pacman as a counterpick. Out of all zoners, Pacman punishes Match-up inexperience the most. He also has a "better then people think" match-up spread and forces your opponent to play out of there comfort zone.

 

[LancerStaff]

Lancer, you've made some grand connections without actually explaining IN REAL TERMS why ("fun", "boring" "all the options are the same"? every melee only attack character must be badly designed too ), and folks are trying to fill the gaps for you with explanations like "he's doing it to defend the HUSBANDO PIT!" or "yeah Marth isn't for me either because ..." because most are understandably bewildered by how you argue 1+1=Z.

Low level players have always tried to play Marth as a simple waller, and it's never been good at high level in prior games whatsoever. There's more to the character than that and when players get power shielding or micro-spacing down-pat it takes a lot for a Marth player to overcome that wall.

I think a large part to what makes Marth less engaging in Smash4 (and only in Smash4) are the lack of auto cancels; optimal choices based on various timings is no longer as big a part of him (having all your ACs optimized for the likes of Fox, Cloud or even Pit are fulfilling hurdles for most players). The over-the-top use of Sakurai angles in his moveset. And the standardizing of his sword disjoint; it used to be fsmash >dsmash > ftilt >= dtilt > DA > jab > nair > bair > up tilt > uair > fair > dair (rough memory, but in general all ground moves > aerial moves) in terms of sword disjoint, at S4 release jab was shorter and the smashes were larger while most of the rest were the same, that's kinda yuck and reduced a lot of the decision making process involved with him from Brawl because every single move he has is able to outspace the same things.

However, Marth is alright in this game no doubt and is still all about fundamentals - spacing, reaction, timing, movement, punishing, positioning (just like all chars, but it's basically all he has); I just believe they intended him to be more of a stepping stone character than a high-depth one in Smash 4; fortunately they patched this a bit with jab and various other things.
He's always been a simple character to understand the premise of, but he's difficult to truly master with a nice splash of high risk/high reward, he's highly recommended for teaching people fundamentals and good habits in Smash and is one of the most popular characters across all 3 games he's featured in, for a reason.

One point though, he has fantastic out of dash options (seriously, what the ****?) due to huh, a usable DP, fast start up side-b, and almost all of his aerials can be done out of a dash jump on grounded or aerial characters. That's the reason he has the worst dash to shield in the cast: his variety of strong out of dash options (the walk was likely a factor too, shame they're silly and made base/acceleration 0 #_#).
He has transcended priority specials (these are nice, screw you ganon/dk/bowser~), long range striking pokes (shieldbreaker, dtilt, nair), arcing hitboxes that emphasise variations of horizontal and vertical spacing, sweet/sour spots based on spacing rather than timing (i.e. we don't always want to tipper), and gets to live a life of punishing enemy actions once they're in disadvantage almost indefinitely (reading/positioning) but with limits, and he's particularly strong at these things.

I don't understand what people aren't understanding... Marth lacks real choices beyond the basics and killing off the same move you've been using the entire time isn't hype. No depth and no hype isn't fun. What's so hard for people to get?

Like, what's the big difference, the big choice, between something like Dtilt and Ftilt? Fair, Bair and Nair? How often are Dair, Dsmash, and dash attack relevant? Things like that.

Yeah, but power shielding and counter spacing are problems inherent to pretty much any swordsman style design.

I get that Pit's ACs need optimization. Use Nair right and he can act just nine frames after the last hitbox is gone. (That's one less frame then Sheik's Fair for those of you playing at home, on a move with similar knockback. Fun stuff.)

So he's less interesting then before because of a lack of autocancels, largely standardized range and little in terms of combos... Like I said, besides the autocancels. Not complaining about what you said but that it's apparently fine with everybody else if you say it and not me.

I don't really think he's good at training fundamentals in this game. Most people I see play him just abuse his power and lack of counterplay in middle levels. Marth's one of the most common picks online because people think they can cheese wins with him, not because he teaches you to play the game. Marth only teaches fundamentals past the point where it's not necessary anymore, honestly.

Grounded dash options. Dash > shield is the worst in the game, dash attack has no redeeming qualities (unless "DP" was supposed to be DA then I'm lost here), dash grab is mediocre. I can understand taking away things for others to be improved but Marth is already one of the most vanilla characters in the roster. His jumping options are great but still basic.

Dancing Blade isn't a move I see a lot of... Feels more like I see it punished on hit more then actual successful use. Yeah, I'm probably biased because I play a floaty but still. Dolphin Slash I've seen get stuffed by a lot of things because it's hitboxes don't match and then the endlag makes it quite risky compared to the reward... Dunno, but you're making them sound a lot more useful then I've been lead to believe. They don't seem like things you'd regularly use, not even like Pit Dsmash level.

 

[Ffamran]

All of this boring and not-boring thing is kind of weird... Aren't those subjective? Someone who plays Luigi could find him fun as hell while someone else would find him stupider than a sack of hammers even after the D-throw patch. Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, the hype monsters of Smash are not hype for everyone. Some think they're as interesting as watching paint dry or that they're as hype as a dog taking a dump on their mother-in-law's shoes. Then you got people who think they are gods among Smash who gift us with their spectacular, epic, and awesome play.

LancerStaff and to anyone else who bothers to read trash I throw at everyone,

I think that's the point of Marth? You've seen fencing or well, fighting in real life, right? The same moves to injure are the same moves to gauge range, KO, kill, or even defend. The results might be the same, but they differ in how they hit, in angles. I could knock someone out with a hook or an uppercut. Both are pretty much similar moves, but come at different angles; hooks are "horizontal uppercuts" which are "vertical hooks". I could cut, stab, slash, and thrust with a sabre to keep you at a distance and if I hit, well, you're going to bleed.

Also, I find it a bit odd you're complaining about this since every character does this. Some to a lesser degree and with certain moves like Sheik uses Bouncing Fish constantly for damage and KOs, but others to a massive degree like Falco, Ganondorf, Ike, Roy, and Shulk all use the same moves for combos and setups for KOs and spacing.