Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

samus has had a relatively unnoticed dropoff in score

around 28-29 for March 15th-May 15th, currently sitting at a grand total of 1.5 points. Noticed this when I was combining the 1.1.5 data with the 1.1.6 data. Bigger dropoff than Bayonetta had lol

I actually noticed this on your most recent list. She's dead last now, right?

I guess the hype from the buffs wore off. Whilst I wouldn't call Samus bad, she's fundamentally less functional than many characters who have a similar game plan.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I actually noticed this on your most recent list. She's dead last now, right?

I guess the hype from the buffs wore off. Whilst I wouldn't call Samus bad, she's fundamentally less functional than many characters who have a similar game plan.

Not if you take those w/out a single point:
Doc, Jiggs, Zard, MiiSwordfighter & Gunner to remind them, in case you haven't looked up.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

@Das Koopa what was the big surprise in your results?

 

[ARISTOS]

I don't get it. What's so special about these 12 characters?; or for that matter, any list of 10, 12, 15 characters that people perceive as "viable"? I don't mean to target you specifically. I don't like these kinds of lists in general. They don't seem to do anything or mean anything, really.

There's no real boundary around these characters that excludes other characters from joining the club. I know and know of plenty of players that have dropped characters listed here in favor of other, better characters also on this list. Players aren't crossing the line at these 12 characters and suddenly curing their character crises. Tournament results aren't showing a big gap between these 12 and #13, #14, etc. Even Peach is getting better results than Ness, recently, and most players probably wouldn't even put her in their top 15, let alone their top 20...25? Half these characters aren't solo-viable at top levels of play, if even that many. Not that this really matters in the grand scheme of things. Good players tend to have a secondary or two anyways, and this trend is only going to grow in popularity as the meta progresses. More on that later. Plenty of characters not listed here have incredibly utility as a secondary, given their current popularity (Olimar, Kirby, Luigi, 2122 short/skinny Brawler), and they deserve as much recognition or more than at least Bayonetta. A pocket Bayonetta isn't all that useful, and she doesn't do much as a standalone character either. Anyways, the line that's been drawn here seems so arbitrary to me, and they always do.

If anything, at this moment in time there's a big spotlight shining down on Sheik and Diddy as the likely #1 and #2 candidates, in no specific order (I'd put my chips on Sheik), with Fox, Mario, and Rosa following close behind... or right up in there themselves- who knows really. Sonic is up there. ZSS is up there. Cloud is probably up there somewhere too. Ordering much else, or tiering the characters in a super specific way, forming distinct cutoffs besides as a way to format cleanly.. any of that is kinda pointless IMO.

---

On this note, I also think the community needs to radically change the way we view tier lists in general. 'Usefulness as a secondary' and 'synergy with other characters and their matchups' are two criminally overlooked character traits in a metagame where secondaries are so prevalent.

For example, Cloud is easily the most useful secondary, and I think tier lists should be impacted heavily by this fact. For the latter, some characters have a few bad matchups than can't be covered by 1 other character very well, or are only covered by characters with really high learning curves, making them unlikely secondaries. For example, who in the world has a Megaman as their secondary, even though he could be quite useful as a secondary in theory? Players using these primary characters are hurt by this. Other characters have several bad matchups, all easily covered by just a Cloud secondary. Having all your bad matchups covered by Cloud is a boon in itself (or even by any single character, that's huge). Said plainly, secondaries are so prevalent that 'Cloud as the perfect secondary' should be viewed as a natural extension of any character whose matchups he covers by himself. Lucario has Aura. Rosalina has Luma. Diddy has bananas. ______ has Cloud.

12 was a number counted after the fact; I picked the characters first then counted them up afterwards.

I think the points you and @Trifroze made are very fair. I don't think I was talking as much about solo viability than I was about those characters being central to the meta. It's definitely an arbitrary cutoff but I see these characters as our ringleaders.

Ness should probably be removed now that I think about it. I think we still have a lot to see from Bayonetta (again, arbitrary)

 

[Amadeus9]

Is metaknight still at top 15?

Too early to say. I think he has it in him, but it really is way too early to say. The thing is with this character is that, a year plus of meta development focused on optimizing his punish game was quashed. You really need to treat him like he's a brand new character. He has a lot of room to grow and new tech and optimization is discovered every day. The big issue ATM is that he was dropped by so many players so quickly. Thus development has slowed down LOTS and also his apparent results are skewed due to the lack of top representation outside of CPing floaties. Oh also on that note, both ANTi + Abadango's MKs at CEO were very unimpressive. Abadango showing his rust and ANTi just not knowing the character that intimately in general. No offense to them.

I THINK as mid-high level players develop this character more fully and his potential is more fully fleshed out, we will see him return to frequent use at top level. But that's purely speculation and "muh potential" arguments are pretty weak, so take this with a grain of salt.

I would say that he feels like a top 15 character to me. Losing to p much just 4 of the top 5 characters and then going even w/ or beating everyone below that point with 1 or 2 outliers is pretty OK.

(the losing mus are btw diddy, fox, ryu, sheik, mario. Potentially also losing to Corrin and Megaman)

 

[Ulevo]

Top 15 is unlikely at this point in time. Somewhere in 16-25, in the same group as the likes of Falcon, Marth, and DK, either in low-high-tier or upper-mid.

Meta Knight's match up spread is far too good to be comparing him to Falcon, Donkey Kong and Marth.

 

[Djent]

Yeah beats Rosa, Pika, and (by results) ZSS. Not only that, but the one matchup everyone agreed held him back got better. I see him falling somewhere in the 10-15 range honestly, and if he's outside that it's not by much.

 

[Amadeus9]

Yeah beats Rosa, Pika, and (by results) ZSS. Not only that, but the one matchup everyone agreed held him back got better. I see him falling somewhere in the 10-15 range honestly, and if he's outside that it's not by much.

I definitely think MK beats ZSS by theory as well. MK kind of loves fighting against fighters that like to sh falling aerials. I've seen arguments for him beating Sonic as well. And his Cloud MU is most likely no worse than even.

Edit: I should probably mention why it is that MK does well vs ZSS because of her aerials. Her short hop is VERY high, and takes a long time to complete. You can easily sh uair or usmash her on reaction to her jumping which completely shuts her aerial options down.

 

[Nu~]

Amadeus9 Ulevo
What is MK's gameplan now after the patch? What does he focus on now that his "hit confirm > death" meta focus is dead.

 

[BunbUn129]

Meta Knight's match up spread is far too good to be comparing him to Falcon, Donkey Kong and Marth.

"Far too good" please explain. He's similar to those characters now because he solidly loses a few notable MU's. Marth has difficulty against Sheik, DK has trouble against ZSS, MK has issues dealing with Diddy and Mario. Like those characters, he has (a) counter(s) among the top-tier cast that hold back his tournament success. When talking about Pikachu, his Mario MU is often cited as a significant hindrance, and now MK shares that problem.

Falcon, DK, and Marth are commonly considered 20-25 so comparing MK to them isn't wrong.

Djent Pikachu and Rosalina aren't common characters. The Sheik MU is better after the patch, but in exchange MK struggles more with almost every other top-tier. Instead of having one heavily disadvantageous MU, he now has several moderately and slightly disadvantaged ones. Characters in 10-15 tend to have good rep and gain good results on a relatively consistent basis (eg. Mewtwo): MK has limited rep and his results are currently on a semi-consistent basis. I find it difficult to believe that Leo would drop a 10-15 character for a 20-25 one.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Metaknight has an fsmash that comes out reasonably fast, kills at decently low percents, and has ridiculously low cooldown. It's a good baiting tool against people inexperienced in the matchup who don't respect it, and a low risk punish tool for killing. Shuttle loop is a good out of shield option that has some linking issues but still does a good job of punishing bad spacing and putting the opponent in a bad position, and possibly killing them at the right percent. His godly recovery (and I mean godly, his recovery is excellent in every conceivable way) lets him go deep offstage and bully people with Nair, Bair and Dair, making for good gimping potential.

Killing isn't metaknight's issue. Even if he lacks kill setups, his raw kill power, safe fsmash and good offstage game make him pretty deadly in the stock-closing department. His issue is his neutral. He has good mobility on the ground and good burst options like dash attack and dash grab. His tilts are good so he gets good mileage out of walking. But as good as his ground game is, his awkward aerial game kind of brings his neutral down a few notches. He has bad air speed and acceleration, and his aerials aren't that great for poking, not compared to those above him. In the long run I think that's what will keep him at the high tier threshold and prevent him from being with the other meta "threats". His Rosa matchup probably gives him a good niche as a counterpick character too.

 

[LancerStaff]

Marth's moves all look like carbon-copies in terms of animations and his tipper mechanic. The similarities end there. You're over-simplifying this character to an unbelievable degree. What about hitbox sizes, frame data, damage, and knockback? Because like every other damn character in Smash, Marth's attacks vary greatly across all those regards, and thus in their purposes. Marth can use up tilt or fair to stuff out aerial approaches, but he can't do the same thing with d tilt, which is used as a grounded poke, just as a basic example.

Interactions aren't limited to combos or 50/50's like you're (possibly) implying. Any attack, whether it meets its mark or not, creates interactions. Let's say you're at 110% and Marth grabs you at the ledge and forward throws you. No true combos, no 50/50's. But now if he jumps offstage after you, you have to fear a frame 6 tipper forward air, a move that you can't react to. This is a guessing game: either you air dodge immediately, delay your air dodge, contest it with your own hitboxes, or simply maneuver to avoid his attempt. If he choose to remain on stage, he can cover options effectively with nair, fair, f tilt, up tilt, and f smash, or go for a 2-frame with f smash.

Pit seems a lot more varied in his design because, well, you main him. And you in turn obviously know little about Marth and how he works or just struggle in that MU, or both. Of course he's going to look bland if you compare him to the character you main, ie the one character you understand the best out of the roster. And criticizing a character for their moves looking similar is just silly. Marth has always been emblematic (yay, puns!) of sword characters and the fact that any non-throw move that he has involves sword swings fits that design perfectly. Tell me: how would you change Marth so that he pleases you? Change his jab to be a series of rapid punches and knee strikes? Or overhaul his up air so that it's a bicycle kick (the thought of Marth doing that makes me chuckle for some reason)? Well, good job, you gave Marth more variety in his attack animations at the cost of making him less true to his design.

For the love of all that is good, please stop jerking Pit off. Marth is alright.

Yes, like every other character. Every character is put in a good position if they Fthrow somebody off a ledge, even Little Mac. The fact that Marth is too doesn't even need to be said. Marth's moves are about as samey and rigid as you can reasonably be... Jab, Ftilt, and Dtilt in neutral fill the same purpose with different ranges and a couple other appropriate changes. You're not jabing or Ftilting in Dtilt range, are you?

If we're talking about shear options then I'm pretty sure Pit's got Marth beat in every situation. That's just how Pit was made. Even on a fundamental level Pit has options out of a dash, regularly useful grab options, and a projectile game over Marth.

Because I'm expressing distaste for his design means I'm salty as ****, amirite? Really dude, come on.

I don't remember complaining about the appearance of Marth's moves. Actually I've stated before that animations and looks don't matter at all, so yeah...

Marth's gameplan barely changes if at all over the course of a match. This is made even worse by the fact that he lacks anything beyond a basic advantage state. There's more to fighting games then then the neutral.

Jab is way different than Dair. Shield Breaker has nothing to do with Fair. Dancing Blade is way different than Up Tilt. Side Tilt is a clutch kill move, Down Tilt is not but it is useful for poking....I don't get your point. All of Marth's moves are different and all of them have a purpose. Even garbage like Dair, Down Smash and Up Smash do something (Dash Attack doesn't exist). His throws may not combo like Pits, but they setup for bad situations, Down Throw leaves you up to get faired/Uaired or Utilted if you don't predict Marth right, Foward and Back Throw send offstage, where Marth wants his victims, and Up Throw is a clutch killer against lightweights.

Dair is not relevant in situations where Jab is an option. DB is useless against opponents above you.

Pit doesn't even have a completely useless move like Marth does... Rapid jab works fine if the opponent ends up in the rapid jab hitboxes like from a roll and it can be held indefinitely. Marth's dash attack is one of the most useless moves in the game.

 

[Amadeus9]

Amadeus9 Ulevo
What is MK's gameplan now after the patch? What does he focus on now that his "hit confirm > death" meta focus is dead.

Edgeguarding and gimping, optimizing damage, baiting poor options and rewarding them with death at mid/high percents. MK has probably the best offstage game in the cast, and his bair is probably the most terrifying offstage move in the game. It's absolutely no joke.

Optimal damage is a concept MK players need to get more accustomed to. Ito has been pioneering this some. If you grab someone at 0, you are threatening to deal them quite substantial damage. Something all mk players need to work on is the dthrow > pp bair tech. It is guaranteed, and a missed tech on the ff means at least 40-50% and thats on the least optimal confirm, which would be 3x dtilt to dash attack upb or nado.

Baiting airdodges makes MK giddy. Not much to say there lol. He has legitimate 50/50 kill setups at high percents. Shuttle Loop also gets kind of absurd with rage.

Something people need to also start really incorporating into their play is perfect pivoting, in addition to extended dash dancing, by a lesser extent. MKs perfect pivot is obscenely good. His tilts all massively benefit from using it as well.

So, i guess the idea is you want to win neutral as little times as possible to seal off stocks. Either set up edgeguard situations or capitalize on whiffs to confirm good damage to get your opponent into % ranges where mks kill setups are too scary to ignore.

 

[Djent]

Pikachu and Rosalina aren't common characters. The Sheik MU is better after the patch, but in exchange MK struggles more with almost every other top-tier. Instead of having one heavily disadvantageous MU, he now has several moderately and slightly disadvantaged ones. Characters in 10-15 tend to have good rep and gain good results on a relatively consistent basis (eg. Mewtwo): MK has limited rep and his results are currently on a semi-consistent basis. I find it difficult to believe that Leo would drop a 10-15 character for a 20-25 one.

Rosa is in the top 10 results-wise on Das Koopa's chart, and while some people still overrate Pikachu there's a very good chance he's top 20. I definitely think the point about moderately disadvantaged matchups is a good one, however. Sometimes it's better to gamble on avoiding one really bad one (prepatch MK) vs. facing a bunch of "-1s." But even so, I don't see his spread being much different than a lot of other characters in the lower part of high tier. Don't MM and TL noticeably lose several matchups, for instance? I just don't think there's enough competition to keep him out of top 20, though maybe he isn't top 15.

 

[Amadeus9]

Rosa is in the top 10 results-wise on Das Koopa's chart, and while some people still overrate Pikachu there's a very good chance he's top 20. I definitely think the point about moderately disadvantaged matchups is a good one, however. Sometimes it's better to gamble on avoiding one really bad one (prepatch MK) vs. facing a bunch of "-1s." But even so, I don't see his spread being much different than a lot of other characters in the lower part of high tier. Don't MM and TL noticeably lose several matchups, for instance? I just don't think there's enough competition to keep him out of top 20, though maybe he isn't top 15.

Most of the Mu's BunBun considers -1s are really so close you should probably call them even. Just sayin

 

[C0rvus]

Imagine if any of the players who used Meta Knight at CEO were polished mains, rather than rusty pocket characters. Dabuz ought to look for a better answer to Meta Knight, as Olimar is cited as a positive matchup for him as well. Especially as the Cloud/Rosa MU becomes closer to even at top level, Meta Knight's spot as a strong counterpick to a top meta threat will be solidified; though Rosa is a fairly niche pick. Pikachu, too, to a lesser extent.

Having Fox, Mario, Diddy, and a couple other pretty common characters at -1 makes MK's life in bracket pretty annoying, though. I can't really say for sure how well off he is, even in theory.

 

[TDK]

@Das Koopa what was the big surprise in your results?

I'm guessing it'll involve Palutena. She just refuses to behave like a Bottom Tier.

 

[|RK|]

Imagine if any of the players who used Meta Knight at CEO were polished mains, rather than rusty pocket characters. Dabuz ought to look for a better answer to Meta Knight, as Olimar is cited as a positive matchup for him as well. Especially as the Cloud/Rosa MU becomes closer to even at top level, Meta Knight's spot as a strong counterpick to a top meta threat will be solidified; though Rosa is a fairly niche pick. Pikachu, too, to a lesser extent.

Having Fox, Mario, Diddy, and a couple other pretty common characters at -1 makes MK's life in bracket pretty annoying, though. I can't really say for sure how well off he is, even in theory.

Following what we were saying earlier, maybe Olimar is more of a comfort pick than true counterpick. If rusty MK play is all it takes to give Rosa trouble, having someone (anyone) else is good.

 

[Ulevo]

"Far too good" please explain. He's similar to those characters now because he solidly loses a few notable MU's. Marth has difficulty against Sheik, DK has trouble against ZSS, MK has issues dealing with Diddy and Mario. Like those characters, he has (a) counter(s) among the top-tier cast that hold back his tournament success. When talking about Pikachu, his Mario MU is often cited as a significant hindrance, and now MK shares that problem.

Falcon, DK, and Marth are commonly considered 20-25 so comparing MK to them isn't wrong.

Djent Pikachu and Rosalina aren't common characters. The Sheik MU is better after the patch, but in exchange MK struggles more with almost every other top-tier. Instead of having one heavily disadvantageous MU, he now has several moderately and slightly disadvantaged ones. Characters in 10-15 tend to have good rep and gain good results on a relatively consistent basis (eg. Mewtwo): MK has limited rep and his results are currently on a semi-consistent basis. I find it difficult to believe that Leo would drop a 10-15 character for a 20-25 one.

I disagree that he solidly loses said few notable match ups. That is my explanation.

These are the match ups I feel Meta Knight has the most difficulty with. Not necessarily which ones he has disadvantages in, although there is overlap here.

I have labbed Luigi recently and the risk reward is heavily skewed in his favor. If you are DIing optimally against his throw combos the most damage he can net is around 55ish % if I remember correctly, where poor DI bring you close to or over 70ish %. He has a kill confirm at 70-76 with down throw, full jump buffered soft neutral air into Super Jump Punch which, when you know the % range, is not particularly difficult to land. This is important because it is just outside the range of what his combos give him. Fireballs completely shut down approach attempts on the ground, and his aerials are too disjointed and too fast on start up and cool down to challenge in the air. On top of this, Meta Knight's combo game is pretty limited against Luigi compared to what he is usually able to net with a grab or dash attack confirm. He can kill Luigi with a single dash attack confirm at low %, but if Luigi knows the DI it is only 30 % with dash attack 1 and 26-30 with dash attack 3. Off stage Meta Knight has a decent chance to take Luigi out but getting him there can be difficult and if you are not positioned properly it is difficult because of how fast double jump Super Jump Punch is from the bottom blast zone. Fireballs do 5% from a distance which is non-trivial given how light Meta Knight is, and if he makes a single mistake he'll die at 52-36 depending on rage from Super Jump Punch. Where Luigi struggles in this match up is when you have a lead but getting that lead in the first place can be difficult because his neutral shuts yours down.

Not impossible to win, 4:6 at worst, but it is very arduous and making one or two mistakes often loses you a set.

Game & Watch is 5:5 in my opinion but the match up is difficult due to how the characters play so similarly in the risk reward department. Neither character can approach very safely. Both have difficult to punish dash attacks, both have low risk high reward smashes that will kill each other if one makes the foolish attempt to punish the other for using them, both are light, both are hard to edge guard. If Game & Watch lands a grab he nets a lot of % due to Meta Knight's fall speed and weight, and Meta Knight cannot afford to get grabbed between 87-102 or he's going to die to down throw, up air. Consequently Game & Watch will die at 78 if he gets hit by dash attack or forward throw. Meta Knight needs to be very careful when he chooses to dash attack because if Game & Watch happens to up smash when Meta Knight commits he is likely to die for it. Down throw to Judgement is always a concern as well. One of the edges Meta Knight has is that he can kill Game & Watch with a ladder confirm, but since neither character is able to approach easily fishing for this is not guaranteed.

Regarding Marth and Lucina I have done a post here regarding my thoughts but I think it is 5:5 to potentially 6:4 in Marth and Lucina's favor.

Corrin is difficult because it is very hard for Meta Knight to land against a Corrin who keeps stage control well due to forward and up air's disjoints, and trying to commit to an approach option against Corrin is always a risk due to Dragon Lunge. While dash attack can clank or beat Dragon Lunge the Corrin can just retreat and bait with the move, in which case the obvious decision would be to go deeper which runs the risk of an immediate Dragon Lunge. It becomes a 50/50 situation that nets Corrin 19% for guessing right, and if she guesses wrong she can retreat. She gives up stage control so this decision is not free, but you are always respecting a large zone of her play. Also, Dragon Lunge has a tendency to kill Meta Knight at 60% ~ on a whim which can drastically turn the tides. Corrin is also very frustrating to edge guard because the F10-17 intangibility and sheer hit box size on Dragon Ascend is so obnoxious that she usually gets to the ledge for free. On top of this, once she is on the ledge she has a lot of options available to her and keeping her from getting back to the stage is difficult without a lot of risk involved. Corrin's issue in this match up is she cannot land, dislikes playing from behind and she gets combo'd pretty hard, though down air is annoying since it can be difficult to punish depending on spacing if you choose the wrong option when she lands due to it having a landing hit box.

Like with Marth and Lucina, I could see Corrin be 6:4 in Corrin's favor but 5:5 is reasonable too.

With Sonic there is a lot of technology that can be used against him. Neutral air beats Spin approaches, and depending on which option Sonic opts for when hitting your shield Meta Knight can net some punishes. However, regaining a lead Sonic is likely to obtain is not easy and this is usually what dictates the match up. I could see 6:4 in Sonic's favor.

Bayonetta's neutral is underrated and it is difficult to approach Bayonetta with the tools Meta Knight has without risking getting hit with a confirm or Witch Time. While she cannot do as much as she could in the previous patch she still does a lot of damage per confirm even with SDI. She is very difficult to juggle, Bat Within gets her out of conventional combos and she is like Corrin in that edge guarding her is very difficult since Afterburn Kick and Witch Twist have too much priority. I feel this match up is likely 5:5 but can involve a lot of patience and risk.

With Little Mac, it is likely 6:4 in Meta Knight's favor but it is quite easy to lose this match up on one or two mistakes. If Little Mac is off stage it is very easy to get the upper hand but getting a patient Little Mac there is difficult. You need to know when forward tilt and forward smash will create too much push back to punish, which forward smash will cross up your shield, and when to and when not to shield to avoid a shield break. The entire match up is based on playing around moves with trample and super amor, which makes landing conventional confirms difficult and risky. Despite being a character with wings, Meta Knight is usually a very ground paced fighter, and no one ultimately "wins" against Little Mac on the ground. Down air is very valuable here, but landing at the wrong time is a risk. And while the match up is already swingy, K.O. Punch confirmed off of a down tilt kills Meta Knight at 0.

Sort of the opposite to Little Mac, Ryu is likely 5:5 but could be 6:4 in his favor due to how strong his punish game is and how early he kills, however he is rather poor against well spaced defensive ground play and Meta Knight has a lot of tools in this match up to defensively react to his commitments while also having options for offensive pressure that are decently safe. However like Little Mac this match up has to be played carefully since one or two mistakes loses you the game, but I would argue it is much less frustrating.

Megaman, Pellets.

I do not know where this idea came from that Meta Knight loses to Mario, but it is likely even at best for Mario, if not 6:4 in Meta Knight's favor. Mario is not particularly fast on his feet, he loses to disjoints, and a lot of his kills come from up smash which should not be landing on a character with multiple jumps and Dimensional Cape. I feel Fox is even. Fox gets combo'd hard, is one of the easiest characters to kill off stage, loses to disjoints and gets all of his confirms off of moves that lose to shield. While Meta Knight cannot match his frame data the disjoints makes up for this discrepancy and Meta Knight has the ground speed and movement to keep up. I have reconsidered Diddy to be likely even also given that Diddy is too reliant on his Banana against a character that has really good item play. Banana does not shut down Meta Knight's approaches as hard as one would believe and Diddy is in an awkward position when he is without one and needs the time and space to pull it out again. Sheik I have gone over enough already.

The reason I posted this was because there is a difference between having an advantage and having it easy. This is why you are seeing Mario do so well in top level play despite him ultimately losing several match ups he has to face. Meta Knight is not an easy character to win with, but that is not necessarily because he loses the match ups he has to play in.

 

[L9999]

snip

Jab is the quickest option and can mixup in different options (Jab 2, Foward Smash, wait and grab, Ftilt, wait and Dtilt, Fair, Uair), FTilt is a clutch killer as well as a spacer, DTilt is a poke. Do these 3 moves do the same? No, you throw them out in neutral but they do different things. And what if Marth doesn't have many moves for the same situation. If the one move he has for that is always effective and consistent it is good. Now, on "Marth is the same the entire match" Marth's design is a fencer, he wants to keep people out, and when opportunity presents, gimp them. If you think he is "bland" blame Sakurai for designing him like that. And no advantage state? Do you think you can get away scott free from Marth offstage and at the edge? You are at a guessing game there, if you lose either you die or go back offstage and repeat. On the sentence responding me, I was replying to your comment that all of Marth's moves are the same and cited examples of completely different moves. And you know Dancing Blade can be aimed upwards? People are acussing you of being salty because you thrash Marth and talk about the wonders of the all mighty Pit to make him look bad. If don't like Marth, that's fine, I don't like him either, but don't thrash him just to make Pit look good. Please don't take this the wrong way.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's really weird, yet intriguing to realize we are approaching a counter pick-heavy meta (kind of like 64), yet there are a lot of stuff to dig from each character, so even though you can go crazy and use a lot of characters to counter pick with (since there's a ton of MUs to get caught offguard with), you could possibly solo-main and lab out all your mains MUs (someday) and lab out all their percent-specific and be successful (if you also played smart and not jump into death).

 

[HeavyLobster]

It's really weird, yet intriguing to realize we are approaching a counter pick-heavy meta (kind of like 64), yet there are a lot of stuff to dig from each character, so even though you can go crazy and use a lot of characters to counter pick with (since there's a ton of MUs to get caught offguard with), you could possibly solo-main and lab out all your mains MUs (someday) and lab out all their percent-specific and be successful (if you also played smart and not jump into death).

To an extent. There are definitely some MUs that are just too hard, but most good characters can at least work through their bad MUs somewhat. Being able to beat someone's pocket at least once in a 4-6 MU gives you a big advantage in a set, so the low tier mentality can be your friend even if you stick to good chars and have a CP.

 

[Peppermint1201]

It's really weird, yet intriguing to realize we are approaching a counter pick-heavy meta

What evidence from recent tournaments leads you to this conclusion?

 

[DungeonMaster]

samus has had a relatively unnoticed dropoff in score
around 28-29 for March 15th-May 15th, currently sitting at a grand total of 1.5 points. Noticed this when I was combining the 1.1.5 data with the 1.1.6 data. Bigger dropoff than Bayonetta had lol

The buffs were very good for Samus but in my opinion they don't go far enough for the character to be pushed on the competitive seen.
Has some great matchups vs. certain high/top tiers (Cloud, Ryu for instance) and an enormous amount of depth but that won't negate some of the basic play elements.
Larger hitbox to hurtbox ratio particularly on d-air (have it match actual animation...) would help enormously.

The biggest problem with the character remains hurtbox extension and/or by correlary small hitboxes - i.e. the moves don't trade you get hit or they whiff.
You can cope with the worst grab, up-smash, basic projectile (h.missile) in the game, and a specific application jab (which is not that bad actually) but the hurtbox to hitbox ratio is the real killer.

A few more tweaks, d-air in particular and god forbid we get a 45 frame homing missile, and she's in a great spot. Otherwise, only a specialist will pick her up.

 

[LancerStaff]

Jab is the quickest option and can mixup in different options (Jab 2, Foward Smash, wait and grab, Ftilt, wait and Dtilt, Fair, Uair), FTilt is a clutch killer as well as a spacer, DTilt is a poke. Do these 3 moves do the same? No, you throw them out in neutral but they do different things. And what if Marth doesn't have many moves for the same situation. If the one move he has for that is always effective and consistent it is good. Now, on "Marth is the same the entire match" Marth's design is a fencer, he wants to keep people out, and when opportunity presents, gimp them. If you think he is "bland" blame Sakurai for designing him like that. And no advantage state? Do you think you can get away scott free from Marth offstage and at the edge? You are at a guessing game there, if you lose either you die or go back offstage and repeat. On the sentence responding me, I was replying to your comment that all of Marth's moves are the same and cited examples of completely different moves. And you know Dancing Blade can be aimed upwards? People are acussing you of being salty because you thrash Marth and talk about the wonders of the all mighty Pit to make him look bad. If don't like Marth, that's fine, I don't like him either, but don't thrash him just to make Pit look good. Please don't take this the wrong way.

That's all fine and dandy but the point here is that Marth's stuck using each one in it's own range... His walk is so garbage it keeps him from well and truly choosing on anything but an opponent rushing straight at you.

Marth plays like a mediocre Brawl character in terms of gameplan... Almost the literal definition of boring. This is especially a problem when he has a bunch of moves that aren't worth using and the ones he has don't make you think. Marth's design has always been terrible.

Except I'm not knocking down Marth? That's just how he is. Pit has more options because he's supposed to, he's the jack-of-all-trades. If he didn't he'd be ****. I only started this tanget because somebody asked a question.

And a gigantic problem with Marth's offstage game is that a significant portion of the cast can just ignore it, while another sizable chunk was free anyway. This has more to do with everybody else's poor design but it still makes the one point where Marth actually feels fun, well, not, most of the time. And there's other characters with equal or better designed edgeguarding and don't play Brawl onstage.

I already said they're about as samey as you could get...

Yeah I knew but I've never seen a decent Marth attempt it, and I seem to remember that particular move being pretty lacking in the hitbox department.

No offense taken... I just don't really see how I'm at fault.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Have to agree with Locke, some of these arguments are borderline insanity.

Highlights:

in which we learn that shielding can be punished by grabbing

and

in which we learn that Mewtwo's hitboxes lose to powershield, unlike every other character in the game.

Right.

Not to dismiss your wealth of knowledge on Mewtwo or to personally attack you (or even to cherrypick, which I am doing somewhat as you have legitimate points too), but it seems that some of Mewtwo's mains insist on painting a picture of him as this fragile, inconsistent, difficult character with significant problems, when he's none of those things. The character may not even be top 10, but let's be real here.

No one ever defended Sheik's f-air by saying that it could be powershielded and punished.

Think about it.

I should have specified that those numbers are never good for anyone. That was my intention, sorry I didn't make it clear.

As for the first point as I was just covering every angle.

No. Any move that takes 6-9 frames is not at an advantage. Any move that takes 6-9 frames doesn't get frame trapped. Assuming the 9-11f is taking into account shield lock, -3 is the worst case scenario for Mewtwo meaning -9 (-3-6 for buffered dtilt/jab) is for him pressing buttons.

I get that you like throwing around these numbers, but you have to realize what they mean and how they apply in a real match.

Here's a real situation where you can look at numbers and hypothesize.

Situation 1:
Mewtwo hits a shield with tipper dtilt against Mario.
Mario tries to use his f6 dash attack to punish out of shield drop because it's the only thing that will reach.
Mewtwo shields and doesn't press a button.
Mewtwo disables and Mario dies to a charged usmash.

Situation 2:
Mewtwo hits a shield with tipper dtilt against Mario
Mario tries to dash grab the Mewtwo shield.
Mewtwo dtilts again, hits the base, and is rewarded for Mewtwo stuff.

First off, Base Dtilt can be shieldgrabbed even by Luigi, thus, high risk/high reward. I also tested it against an extremely slow grab, Ganondorf (Frame 7) Still worked. The only characters that can't shieldgrab it are the tether characters. Except for Pac-man. He breaks the spotdodge.

Situation 2 is a complete noob option... Who in there right mind would challenge a spaced move? Usually, they are nonpunishable.

Situation 1 is hilarious. First off, assuming Mewtwo just shields the entire time, and that Mario hits Mewtwo on frame 6, nothing will happen. Mario goes through shields on the early frames of the move. This makes it unpunishable by tthe details of your scenario. Otherwise, it only barely works if at all. The frames BARELY line up, and only if frame perfect. However, that is only if I don't count for the unknown frames that the DJ has. Assuming that DJ can be inputed frame 1 and cancelled frame 2, Mewtwo is only +3 on Mario. However, Mewtwo will not hit with the first, or even second active frame of disable because of Marios low profile, the soonest he can hit Mario is on frame 19, making the total equation +/-0. Both are noobish options. Remember that DJC Disable takes a minimum of 22 frames to come out. Even so, Mario could pick the correct option and beat it.

Please freshen up on your Mewtwo information if you will.

Now, for the shields information.

Here is the information for Shields:

Shields in Smash 4:
1-3: Power shield
4-11: locked into shield [11 frames minimum]
12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)

Now, as everyone should know, you can jump OoS and skip the shieldrop frames. This is why Dtilt has 2 numbers, -3 and -10. -3 is when the victim drops his shield before making a move. This causes him to go through 7 frames of lag. -10 is when the opponent skips the shield drop lag by jumping, rolling or grabbing. So, as long as your grab is below frame 10, you can grab Mewtwo out of base Dtilt. This is why tether grabs don't work, as they come out frame 12. (Pac-mans will beat Mewtwo's only escape option, Spotdodge) So, as long as you take into account Jumpsquat frames and the start-up of a move, you can find out if it will hit. You need to factor in a few frames of moving lag however, as well as human error. It is easier to buffer shield then it is to perform SH Nair OoS with Luigi, as Luigi has to be near frame perfect to hit.

For more information, check out my shieldstun section in my guide. Need to update the numbers though...

So, using this information and confirming it in-game, I can find what moves will beat Base Dtilt. While some rare aerials will beat it, it is plain best to grab for 90% of the cast.

Tail and Tipper are two completely different scenarios. Tail is extremely hard to punish, and tipper is unpunishable. However, as I said before, few combos are possible off a tail hit and practically none are true off of tipper.

Questions? I will gladly answer them. Knee-jerk reactions? I will refute your claim. Unless it actually applies. Then I will accept it.

 

[Zelder]

I like the discussion around "terrible" character designs, which is definitely not a way to dress up "I do not personally like this character"opinions and present them in an allegedly unbiased way.

Like seriously, maybe if your analysis of a character's design involves the words "fun" or "boring", it's time to recognize that you're not coming at this from anything approaching an objective analysis.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Unrelated, but maintenance is still going on. Doubt there's a patch this soon (if any more at all) but it is curious.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

His walk is so garbage.

Dear diary. Today, I learned one the fastest walkers in the game has a garbage walk. I'm not a good Marth, but last time I checked, having a fast walk is good for a character like Marth who wants to use his tilts and jabs a lot, which is what good Marths want.

 

[Nobie]

The biggest sign that both Abadango and Anti didn't know the MK-Olimar match-up was the utter lack of up throws. MK's up throw, unlike Kirby's, does collateral damage. It's enough to kill white Pikmin and hurt the others to the point that a swipe of the sword will finish them off.

 

[LancerStaff]

I like the discussion around "terrible" character designs, which is definitely not a way to dress up "I do not personally like this character"opinions and present them in an allegedly unbiased way.

There's no such thing as presenting something unbiased though... I mean, people will still insist BBS is a good game.

Unrelated, but maintenance is still going on. Doubt there's a patch this soon (if any more at all) but it is curious.

It's weird because Nintendo's maintenance page doesn't say anything at all.

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

Every time they've given us a patch we've known about maintenance beforehand, and yet we don't have anything official about it. This implies that somebody wasn't prepared for the maintenance... Either because there's an actual technical issue, or because some intern got lazy.

Dear diary. Today, I learned one the fastest walkers in the game has a garbage walk. I'm not a good Marth, but last time I checked, having a fast walk is good for a character like Marth who wants to use his tilts and jabs a lot, which is what good Marths want.

Acceleration is garbage and renders his high walking speed moot. Ask Shaya if you don't believe me.

See guys, this is the moronic bandwagoning I'm talking about. Do the ****ing research.

 

[TurboLink]

Dear diary. Today, I learned one the fastest walkers in the game has a garbage walk. I'm not a good Marth, but last time I checked, having a fast walk is good for a character like Marth who wants to use his tilts and jabs a lot, which is what good Marths want.

He's talking about the acceleration.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

There's no such thing as presenting something unbiased though... I mean, people will still insist BBS is a good game.

I don't think that's a good comparison. You're implying BBS is OBJECTIVELY a bad game judging from the wording, when that's the kind of stuff that's subjective as hell

Do the ****ing research.

I mean. You're the guy who ALWAYS pretends Pit's much better than he actually is and tried calculating framedata with your eyes instead of the individual frames iirc. If Marth's walk genuinely is garbo, that's a mistake on my part (I'll gladly admit I usually just lurk here to learn stuff so I'm less casual) but you don't really have the right to say that

He's talking about the acceleration.

Again, mistake on my part

 

[Locke 06]

First off, Base Dtilt can be shieldgrabbed even by Luigi, thus, high risk/high reward. I also tested it against an extremely slow grab, Ganondorf (Frame 7) Still worked. The only characters that can't shieldgrab it are the tether characters. Except for Pac-man. He breaks the spotdodge.

Situation 2 is a complete noob option... Who in there right mind would challenge a spaced move? Usually, they are nonpunishable.

Situation 1 is hilarious. First off, assuming Mewtwo just shields the entire time, and that Mario hits Mewtwo on frame 6, nothing will happen. Mario goes through shields on the early frames of the move. This makes it unpunishable by tthe details of your scenario. Otherwise, it only barely works if at all. The frames BARELY line up, and only if frame perfect. However, that is only if I don't count for the unknown frames that the DJ has. Assuming that DJ can be inputed frame 1 and cancelled frame 2, Mewtwo is only +3 on Mario. However, Mewtwo will not hit with the first, or even second active frame of disable because of Marios low profile, the soonest he can hit Mario is on frame 19, making the total equation +/-0. Both are noobish options. Remember that DJC Disable takes a minimum of 22 frames to come out. Even so, Mario could pick the correct option and beat it.

Please freshen up on your Mewtwo information if you will.

Tail and Tipper are two completely different scenarios. Tail is extremely hard to punish, and tipper is unpunishable. However, as I said before, few combos are possible off a tail hit and practically none are true off of tipper.

Questions? I will gladly answer them. Knee-jerk reactions? I will refute your claim. Unless it actually applies. Then I will accept it.

You win neutral off of a spammable ranged poke. Being "shield grabbed even by Luigi" is typical of poorly spaced ranged pokes. However, it's not hard to space something outside of shield grab range that has the range of Mewtwo's dtilt when it is also incredibly difficult to whiff punish due to low recovery. The opponent has to enter the range of tipper dtilt not shielding in order to be able to shield grab the base dtilt. This is how ground footsies work and why Mewtwo controls it in most matchups.

Maybe Mewtwo can't disable Mario for dash attacking his shield. He can still do a multitude of other things (usmash? shield drop>dtilt? NAir?), because it's UNSAFE unlike Mewtwo's dtilt which is SAFE. That's the whole argument here. "Who in their right mind would challenge a spaced move?" Maybe someone who is trying to predict that you are going to shield in anticipation of a counter attack fast enough to beat out a repeated dtilt. Since "f6-9 moves don't get frame trapped." Sorry if I'm wrong on my numbers, but the principle of "dash attack vs dash grab" to challenge the next move of Mewtwo's is legitimate. The two situations are directly to talk about how you consider f6-9 moves to have an "advantage" over Mewtwo's dtilt on shield out of shield drop.

Like I said, I don't really care about numbers. If you want a practical situation I know absolutely about:
Megaman dtilts out of shield drop to punish mewtwo for pressing a button after dtilt on shield. This works if Mewtwo does anything, but if he shields, Megaman eats a large punish (usually shield grab because the opponent doesn't have the reactions/knowledge to usmash OoS me for it).

So what am I supposed to do? Respect its safety? Okay, I retreat and Mewtwo keeps spinning his tail. "Mewtwo's dtilt is a silly move."

 

[StarshipGroove]

You guys must have realized by now that lancerstaff just really ****ing hates Fire Emblem and is nitpicking for inane stff to complain about. He's complained about every single Fire Emblem character in the roster over and over.

 

[paperchao]

So now that everyone is talking about how having multiple characters is a necessity in tourney, what lesser characters can be used to cp right now? One character I predict will become big as a secondary again will be dr.mario, his mu against pika, Fox, and Mario are pretty good, and he is a really good secondary to add into a character coverage core.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't think that's a good comparison. You're implying BBS is OBJECTIVELY a bad game judging from the wording, when that's the kind of stuff that's subjective as hell

I mean. You're the guy who ALWAYS pretends Pit's much better than he actually is and tried calculating framedata with your eyes instead of the individual frames iirc. If Marth's walk genuinely is garbo, that's a mistake on my part (I'll gladly admit I usually just lurk here to learn stuff so I'm less casual) but you don't really have the right to say that

Again, mistake on my part

I'm not presenting my opinions as fact. I'm using facts to back up my opinions.

Nope, I've always used Kurogane hammer whenever I need to talk frame data. Pit's arrows have a FAF of 43 btw, which absolutely and positively means that they're one less frame of commitment then Luigi's fireballs. If you don't believe it then chat up Kuroganehammer, don't believe me and ask Shaya if I'm reading Kurogane right. Though I've tested it myself to my best ability and I'm pretty darned sure it's correct.

Anybody can observe and interpret data. If somebody says something weird or unbelievable when we have objective data everywhere then look it up yourself before assuming they're a kook, it'll save you some lectures that way.

You guys must have realized by now that lancerstaff just really ****ing hates Fire Emblem and is nitpicking for inane stff to complain about. He's complained about every single Fire Emblem character in the roster over and over.

Haven't complained about Ike, actually. For the record I've played, beaten, and enjoyed his game on the GC. The sequel? Ehhhhh.

 

[Amadeus9]

yeah marths walk is kind of garbage. try doing tilt > walk tilt and see just how slow his walk is to start up. it is a serious issue for the character

 

[Yikarur]

Marth has an initial walk speed of 0. Thats really bad.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You win neutral off of a spammable ranged poke. Being "shield grabbed even by Luigi" is typical of poorly spaced ranged pokes. However, it's not hard to space something outside of shield grab range that has the range of Mewtwo's dtilt when it is also incredibly difficult to whiff punish due to low recovery. The opponent has to enter the range of tipper dtilt not shielding in order to be able to shield grab the base dtilt. This is how ground footsies work and why Mewtwo controls it in most matchups.

Maybe Mewtwo can't disable Mario for dash attacking his shield. He can still do a multitude of other things (usmash? shield drop>dtilt? NAir?), because it's UNSAFE unlike Mewtwo's dtilt which is SAFE. That's the whole argument here. "Who in their right mind would challenge a spaced move?" Maybe someone who is trying to predict that you are going to shield in anticipation of a counter attack fast enough to beat out a repeated dtilt. Since "f6-9 moves don't get frame trapped." Sorry if I'm wrong on my numbers, but the principle of "dash attack vs dash grab" to challenge the next move of Mewtwo's is legitimate. The two situations are directly to talk about how you consider f6-9 moves to have an "advantage" over Mewtwo's dtilt on shield out of shield drop.

Like I said, I don't really care about numbers. If you want a practical situation I know absolutely about:
Megaman dtilts out of shield drop to punish mewtwo for pressing a button after dtilt on shield. This works if Mewtwo does anything, but if he shields, Megaman eats a large punish (usually shield grab because the opponent doesn't have the reactions/knowledge to usmash OoS me for it).

So what am I supposed to do? Respect its safety? Okay, I retreat and Mewtwo keeps spinning his tail. "Mewtwo's dtilt is a silly move."

1st paragraph:
You are missing my point... My point all along was that Mewtwo has to take a risk in order to get the base Dtilt. Now, spaced Dtilt on Shield is extremely safe, just like a lot of other moves. However, it has low reward. Good, but it isn't nearly as rewarding as Base Dtilt. Tipper usually doesn't even give Mewtwo advantage. Another thing, why would you take the risk of entering that zone in the first place? You have so many other options besides "Oooh, I should go into an unsafe zone and shield in order to get the shieldgrab!" If Mewtwo tries to punish you and you shield the Base Dtilt punish, you can shieldgrab him. That is the only appropriate time in which to go for it. Otherwise, you are putting yourself at an extreme disadvantage during NEUTRAL for a small punish.

Basically, Mewtwo can tipper Dtilt during Neutral, but only for a possible small punish. Otherwise, the only time Mewtwo is going to take the risk of a Base Dtilt is when he is going for a read. And anyways, If your opponent is spamming the move, why don't you read it? Dtilt has a very low hitbox, so any SH Fair could go over it if you read Dtilt. But that is an in-depth rabbit hole to go into. Reading, Neutral, footsies and complex strategies that have nothing to do with this argument.

2nd Paragraph:
You, again, are missing what I am saying. You cannot punish Mewtwo off of a shieldrop unless you have a frame 3 or lower grounded move. Mewtwo is 100% safe unless ZSS jabs him or something along those lines.

You can, however, punish Mewtwo if you jump out of shield. Jumping out of shield allows you to act 7 frames faster then shield dropping. So, as long as your move is below 10 frames, you can beat Dtilt. So, as long as your Jumpsquat and aerial start-up frames are under 10, you can hit Mewtwo. Only by jumping do you get this offensive advantage. So, only aerial moves are applicable. Mewtwo can hold shield in this scenario and still get hit. Your scenario applies only if the opponent drops there shield and suffers the shield drop lag.

3rd Paragraph:
Why the heck would Megaman Dtilt when he could easily SH Lemons? Shield dropping Dtilt is a horribly unsafe idea. Not only is it punishable by 90% of the cast, but Megaman has far better options. Again, Shield dropping adds 7 frames of lag, giving Mewtwo a -3. However, when you jump out of shield, you don;t suffer those 7 frames of lag, and can act immediately. Other moves that can skip shield drop lag are Grab and Roll. Please understand this mechanic...