Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Sinister Slush]

Even though I told myself I wouldn't comment back here again for the next few months again like the other times. I seriously hope the 3 stock debate comes up again, it of course won't change for stuff like CEO or EVO but we still have the rest of Summer and this year to hopefully get back 3 stocks.

 

[Mario766]

Why do people want 3 stocks again?

 

[Pyr]

Really hope people aren't going to use 3 players burning out due to an unexpected entire extra half of a bracket to further a 3 stock positive/negative discussion. We literally have a thread for that already.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Why do people want 3 stocks again?

Because the only actual reason people use 2 stocks is it being the For Glory default.

 

[Mario766]

Because the only actual reason people use 2 stocks is it being the For Glory default.

and when 3 stock matches come on, it's a slow mess where people can't secure stocks very well so the match drags out forever.

 

[FeelMeUp]

and when 3 stock matches come on, it's a slow mess where people can't secure stocks very well so the match drags out forever.

literally only happens with extremely bad players/the characters nobody wants to see anyway(Villager, Sonic, Rosa, etc)
ie games people would alt tab the stream for if they were 2 OR 3 stocks.
don't spread misinformation.

 

[Mario766]

literally only happens with extremely bad players/the characters nobody wants to see anyway(Villager, Sonic, Rosa, etc)
ie games people would alt tab the stream for if they were 2 OR 3 stocks.
don't spread misinformation.

Misinformation?

This is actually the same feelings as other players.

This happens for every skill level below the top level, as even with the opportunities to punish, they can't utilize them properly.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Let's please remember that Ruleset Preferences is not really allowed in this thread.

Use this one instead if you want to keep the 2v3 stock debate: http://smashboards.com/threads/is-3-stock-better-than-2.403736/

 

[Nobie]

Sakurai actually said he couldn't bring in the Ice Climbers in because the 3DS was lacking. I believe he said that Pikmin were reduced because of the limitations in AI. Pkmn trainer, Zss/Samus, Zelda/Sheik were stripped of transformations due to the 3DS lacking. Everything points to the 3DS being weak and restricted by its limitations. IIRC, there was a time Sakurai even said its like creating two different games.

I dunno who this "us", is you are referring to. Many of the same people who bought it for the 3DS seemed to have frustrations over getting for the 3DS only to find out the full version will be coming out mere 2 months after.

I wish I was Joe Shmoe, cuz I don't have a 3DS.


The main reason I was going to play this game was to play my previous mains and do well. Wolf was cut, Ike was bad on release, DK was passable.

So again, it's a business success, but communal building, kinda under what it could've been. Its good, but why settle for good when it could've been great?

It's not even about having a 3DS or not, it's that getting a 3DS and Smash is way less expensive than a Wii U and Smash. I've seen plenty of people going 3DS-only, and as far as I can tell price is a huuuge factor.

 

[Nu~]

As far as Smash 4 goes I don't think a single top player has not netted bad losses outside of Zero. It's not just Japan.

Ally and Void recently lost to GnW. Vinnie and Nairo recently lost to Bowser. And the list goes on.

Well ZeRo did lose to Seagull Joe...

 

[Minordeth]

Well ZeRo did lose to Seagull Joe...

One of the better Sonics in the US doesn't really constitute a "bad" loss, though?

EDIT: I foresee this becoming a really semantic argument about what a "bad loss" means.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Well for all you charizard enthusiasts out there, I found this

This matchup chart is brought to us by Draquaza, the "best charizard" from zero's best of each character list. While this thread is normally tired of match up charts I feel like this one is useful to the discussion. Do you zards think that this matchup spread is accurate, and if so does this really validate a claim to mid tier? If this is correct zard loses to basically all the highish tier characters bar and other relatively relevant characters

Loosing -2 to mario and diddy is not a good look for bracket luck considering their popularity

Edit: worth noting we dont know exactly what a -2 means to draquaza so take this with a grain of salt as it might be similar to wills matchup chart where he thought -3's were still doable

Ahhhh the Mario matchup
I sorta think this is an evenish matchup though, a slight disadvantage sure but not -2 lmao
He gets comboed hard but he can wall Mario out ridiculously easily gimp him pretty hard with nair and flamethrower and 2frame his recovery pretty easily with dsmash. His juggle game is also amazing, up tilts beat out literally all of Mario's landing options unless he goes for a platform, in that case you can opt for a bair that can kill as early as 70. The issue with this matchup is that Mario can juggle him almost just as hard, combos him harder, and gimps him pretty hard too *flashback of flair blitz getting caped*

I don't think Charizard is a fundamentally bad character, he has a solid kit overall with everything he needs to succeed but the playerbase. He has almost no high level reps in the US which hurts him a ton. He has good matchups vs other heavies and characters with poor mobility or poor landing options where he can just go nuts doing Charizard things and has the survival ability to clutch a few of his would be horrible matchups against characters who constantly get into those last stock last hit situations (Sonic and Pikachu for example) and just upthrow at 90 for a kill. If his playerbase was more well known than I think he would seen less as a "non viable" and more of a counterpick/alt for someone like Yoshi and cover nearly every matchup. Hell, his playerbase is so tiny compared to other "bottom tiers" that I guarantee there are at least a few people in this thread who don't know the difference between up tilt and up smash

 

[De Wolfe]

We use 3 stocks for most of our tournaments here in the UK and personally I don't like it. I feel like two stocks makes your goals more clearer as to how to catch up if you're behind or how to hold your lead if you're ahead. It also feels more like a traditional fighting game where the first round/stock is used for gathering data then you adapt on the next stock.

I played in a three stock tournament recently and 3 out of 4 of my tournament games in top 32 ended in time overs (admittedly these were in heavy projectile based matchups, Villager vs Megaman and Villager vs Pikachu). I feel this is because with three stock and 8 mins you naturally aren't as stressed to rack up % and get kills because of all the extra time you now have. This seems to drag out the middle portion of the match where its not always clear who has the lead (percentages and stock numbers don't always tell the entire story).

I just feel like in Smash 4 you get so many damn chances to play the neutral, two stocks is plenty of time to adapt to your opponent. If zero to death combos were commonplace and if characters weren't so good at getting back to the ledge in this game then three stocks may be needed but its not like that.

I used to play Marvel Vs Capcom 3 and early on in the lifespan of that game the format was switched from 2/3 games to 3/5 games. It makes sense for a game like that because one touch can mean you don't get to play in that game. So you need a little more time to adapt. 2 stocks in Smash 4 is plenty of time to adapt imo. I rarely ever see Smash 4 matches where I think 'yeah that guy didn't get to play at all, if only he had another stock to adapt'. Like I said earlier you get tons of chances at neutral in this game.

Also two stock is way better from a spectator point of view. Three stock matches are really a drag to watch imo.

 

[Yikarur]

You have just 2 more minutes for 1 more Stock.
Those campy MUs would've ended in a timeout anyway.

3 Stocks is better from a viewer point of view because people want to see more of the fane they like.

This is not the place for this debate tho

 

[De Wolfe]

You have just 2 more minutes for 1 more Stock.
Those campy MUs would've ended in a timeout anyway.

3 Stocks is better from a viewer point of view because people want to see more of the fane they like.

This is not the place for this debate tho

The 'if you like smash 4, having more of it at once can only be a good thing' argument sounds ok on paper but I don't think its always true in reality. I love smash 4, I don't like three stock. 'Pacing' in fighting games is really important but its kind of an abstract idea that is hard to get right. I think two stock hits the nail on the head for the right pacing of a tournament set imo. And it still allows for matches to be decided fair and square so why fix what aint broke?

You're right this isn't entirely the right place to discuss this, but because Smash doesn't come with stock rules you can't help but occasionally bring theoretical ruleset discussions into debates about tiers and the metagame.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

While it does suck that the 3ds version meant some things had to be cut, I do think having that version of the game was very good for the success of Smash 4 commercially, and subsequently the community. It probably helped expose this game to a LOT more people than it would have if this game were only on Wii U. That can't be a bad thing, especially for a game that wants to be an e sport and needs viewership.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sakurai actually said he couldn't bring in the Ice Climbers in because the 3DS was lacking. I believe he said that Pikmin were reduced because of the limitations in AI. Pkmn trainer, Zss/Samus, Zelda/Sheik were stripped of transformations due to the 3DS lacking. Everything points to the 3DS being weak and restricted by its limitations. IIRC, there was a time Sakurai even said its like creating two different games.

I dunno who this "us", is you are referring to. Many of the same people who bought it for the 3DS seemed to have frustrations over getting for the 3DS only to find out the full version will be coming out mere 2 months after.

I wish I was Joe Shmoe, cuz I don't have a 3DS.


The main reason I was going to play this game was to play my previous mains and do well. Wolf was cut, Ike was bad on release, DK was passable.

So again, it's a business success, but communal building, kinda under what it could've been. Its good, but why settle for good when it could've been great?

These are bad things? Legit question. Even the removal of the Ice Climbers I think is better for the series because now they don't need to allocate time/system power to making the ICs work with every combination of stages and items.

The Wii U version isn't the full version. It's half of the same game. No **** it has more content, it costs an extra 20$. 3DS version still has some better extra modes like it's version of Classic and Smash Run.

That's your problem... Most people don't even think a Wii U is worth owning. Even if just for Smash the 3DS version and the system itself is cheaper.

Why would any of this be different with just one game? Heck, why did you expect anything but garbage balance from SSB4 when it was basically nonexistent in every other game?

 

[Man Li Gi]

I can agree with the points Nobie and Shady Shaymin posted about the 3DS and the community. I guess you don't want the game to be like SF V (great for the FGC competitive people mainly, did so poorly commercially, that Pokken outsold it).

It still hasn't changed my sentiments about it, but like I just said mid statement, they are my sentiments. I will recede back to the life of the lurker.

 

[Zelder]

Every day I wake up and thank the 3DS version for taking the Ice Climbers out of Smash 4.

Also, ZSS/Samus and Zelda/Sheik being stripped of their transformations is a good thing. Did anyone ever actually transform between Zelda and Sheik? Like, purposefully?

 

[C0rvus]

...I wanted Pokemon Trainer to come back so, so badly. Instead all we got was my least favorite Pokemon of the three. Ice Climbers can rot in hell, though.

 

[Y2Kay]

Pokemon Trainer was my favorite smash character of all time. My first ever main.

A part of my soul died when he didn't return to smash.

C0rvus Ivy was the worst of the Pokemon though.

 

[Trela]

The concept of weeklies doesn't even exist in Japan. If it's not a regional/national, it's for fun.

I wish we thought the same way about weeklies here in the US.

 

[Luco]

Sup Trela. :3

I wonder if it would be better or worse if weeklies were considered 'for fun'. It would maybe take some of the stress out of them for higher level players, but would mid and low-level players still feel like their experiences there were valid?

Also more applicable to places like Australia, but there are definitely some scenes in here where weeklies are pretty much all they have for most of a given quarter year. Just food for thought I guess.

Every day I wake up and thank the 3DS version for taking the Ice Climbers out of Smash 4.

Also, ZSS/Samus and Zelda/Sheik being stripped of their transformations is a good thing. Did anyone ever actually transform between Zelda and Sheik? Like, purposefully?

Ed did I think, he was one of the few true "shielda" mains out there.

Some people used to play with Sheik for most of the time and then (would you know it?) switch to Zelda to kill. This combination was considered (very slightly) better than Sheik, the better character in Brawl.

Ice Climbers in this game would be fine btw. Desyncing would be more important than ever yay.

Anyway to reign this back in, Zard apparently loses to Wario, and that interests me because although Zard would probably have to approach (who doesn't? Maybe a few), I feel like his incredible disjoints would do pretty well against Wario as long as he was staying grounded and wasn't using his terribad aerial mobility...?

 

[adom4]

Sup Trela. :3

I wonder if it would be better or worse if weeklies were considered 'for fun'. It would maybe take some of the stress out of them for higher level players, but would mid and low-level players still feel like their experiences there were valid?

Also more applicable to places like Australia, but there are definitely some scenes in here where weeklies are pretty much all they have for most of a given quarter year. Just food for thought I guess.



Ed did I think, he was one of the few true "shielda" mains out there.

Some people used to play with Sheik for most of the time and then (would you know it?) switch to Zelda to kill. This combination was considered (very slightly) better than Sheik, the better character in Brawl.

Ice Climbers in this game would be fine btw. Desyncing would be more important than ever yay.

Anyway to reign this back in, Zard apparently loses to Wario, and that interests me because although Zard would probably have to approach (who doesn't? Maybe a few), I feel like his incredible disjoints would do pretty well against Wario as long as he was staying grounded and wasn't using his terribad aerial mobility...?

I don't know about Ice climbers man, i have a feeling that footstools would make them just as dumb.

 

[C0rvus]

To be fair, many players do use weeklies to focus on fun. Players like False and Blue, or some of the better players at my local will mostly sandbag because the bulk of us are free food for them. When False and Blue play against each other, they will almost always play some pocket character or random one, pick non tournament stages, and have fun with it. I think plenty of people want to use weeklies to focus on improvement or matchups, but there's some fun there as well.

And I know Ivysaur was the worst one, but she's best girl.

 

[Luco]

I don't know about Ice climbers man, i have a feeling that footstools would make them just as dumb.

Hmm, do you think? You might be able to do footstool 0-deaths with them but it'd require some pretty heavy desyncing, I reckon most of them would be unviable.

I know it's a little late but just wanted to chip in and say Char's moves on an individual level don't feel, from the opponent perspective to be bad. They don't AC but they're meaty and failing to punish in time just means you get jabbed, and Charizard's jab slightly infuriates me. Also the extra jump, whilst not particularly amazing in terms of actual distance, makes mixing up landings a lot easier for Char. He even has Fly as a good OoS killing option (although it's a bit inconsistent) and Flamethrower for some reason just kinda works...? It's just his aerial mobility feels like it's killing him slowly.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I miss the ICs SO SO SO SO much......

They were my favorite characters and to have your favorite characters, WHO WERE PLANNED TO BE IN THE GAME FROM THE START, get cut.....it hurts...a never ending feeling of pain, cause you know something is missing.

I miss them

 

[iVoltage]

To be fair, many players do use weeklies to focus on fun. Players like False and Blue, or some of the better players at my local will mostly sandbag because the bulk of us are free food for them. When False and Blue play against each other, they will almost always play some pocket character or random one, pick non tournament stages, and have fun with it. I think plenty of people want to use weeklies to focus on improvement or matchups, but there's some fun there as well.

And I know Ivysaur was the worst one, but she's best girl.

I like the fact that weeklies are competitive, it's a better environment if you are trying to improve and play better players. I know it's up to the players but if everyone sandbags it's not the same.

 

[C0rvus]

I'll agree to that; it's definitely a bit insulting to basically have to "earn" a game with Blue's Mewtwo by beating his awful Pac Man. It's not like I had a chance of beating it, but I want better matches. And who's to say that having harder, more competitive matches isn't more fun? It's certainly more rewarding.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Japan is a more condensed land space, with its major cities reliably connected by an efficient and fast railway system.

No such luxury in the states. When people go to weeklies, it's more often than not a big commitment to drive to. They expect their money's worth when they get in bracket.

 

[conTAgi0n]

If playing seriously and playing for fun aren't compatible to you, then why would you ever enter a tournament? Surely there are easier ways to pay the rent.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Except that wasn't my point?

Weeklies are inherently a bigger commitment for some people due because of distance or because of the day and time the tournament is scheduled. That's a constant that will never, ever change regardless of tournament ruleset.

If people are driving two hours to attend a weekly with a limited number of setups, then goddammit they are going to want to make that trip worthwhile, whether it's playing for fun on temple in an iron man challenge for seven hours straight, or becoming the next FalcoMaster3000 and blasting through bracket.

 

[conTAgi0n]

Mr. Johan my post wasn't directed towards you specifically, and I agree with what you said actually. I was just noticing that we were starting to draw a contrast between playing for fun and playing seriously, and I don't think that's quite the right distinction to draw.

 

[Patriarachnid]

Except that wasn't my point?

Weeklies are inherently a bigger commitment for some people due because of distance or because of the day and time the tournament is scheduled. That's a constant that will never, ever change regardless of tournament ruleset.

If people are driving two hours to attend a weekly with a limited number of setups, then goddammit they are going to want to make that trip worthwhile, whether it's playing for fun on temple in an iron man challenge for seven hours straight, or becoming the next FalcoMaster3000 and blasting through bracket.

Tbh I think it's odd that there aren't more online tournaments. I get that there'd be a few logistical issues with getting everyone to fight when they're supposed to, but I imagine it'd save a lot on gas.

 

[Djent]

Good news for enthusiasts:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Congrats Trela

 

[MF Viewtiful]

Good stuff on Trela. TBH he's the last thing making me care about Smash.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Tbh I think it's odd that there aren't more online tournaments. I get that there'd be a few logistical issues with getting everyone to fight when they're supposed to, but I imagine it'd save a lot on gas.

Online and offline are two different experiences. In general wifi warriors are those people who don't have the option to go to too many IRL events, as those who have the option are going to prefer local events in general.

 

[Juno97]

Literally everyone is getting a sponsor now lol

Larry, Trela, VoiD

They're big name sponsors too. Smash really esports now

We've come a long way boyz

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Poor dabuz

 

[TDK]

Poor dabuz

Wasn't Dabuz sponsored by IQHQ at one point?