Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[sedrf]

https://twitter.com/ykryzk/status/745072120313552898
How is roy's neutral

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I mean, I could do with usmash being less braindead.

Ugh, of all the moves to complain about...feel free to call it braindead but I'm going to call you wrong.

Yeah I know, it seems kind of dumb, but it has it's limitations. Unlike Fox's upsmash (which kills earlier, mind you) there aren't really set-ups into Mario's usmash. Meaning if you get hit by it, it's really no one's fault but yours. Plus he has to be at like point blank for it to hit and his running speed is nothing impressive. And yeah, it seems like it's pretty unpunishable, but it has 27 frames of endlag (hitbox is out frames 9-12, FAF is 40).

If you nerf usmash, Mario has what left for kill options? Fsmash and Bthrow?

There are dumber moves on better characters. Mind your spacing, don't throw out anything stupid, and you'll be fine.

 

[meticulousboy]

Ugh, of all the moves to complain about...feel free to call it braindead but I'm going to call you wrong.

Yeah I know, it seems kind of dumb, but it has it's limitations. Unlike Fox's upsmash (which kills earlier, mind you) there aren't really set-ups into Mario's usmash. Meaning if you get hit by it, it's really no one's fault but yours. Plus he has to be at like point blank for it to hit and his running speed is nothing impressive. And yeah, it seems like it's pretty unpunishable, but it has 27 frames of endlag (hitbox is out frames 9-12, FAF is 40).

If you nerf usmash, Mario has what left for kill options? Fsmash and Bthrow?

There are dumber moves on better characters. Mind your spacing, don't throw out anything stupid, and you'll be fine.

Thank you for defending Mario. His Up Smash may not make the top 20 strongest in terms of knockback, but there are better up smashes. If we're talking slow but strong, Ike's is the way to go. Peach has a frame 14 up smash and is intangible on head and arm. KBG of 97 on the early hit?! Can't sleep on that. Cooldown, I say is around the same as Mario's.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yeah I know, it seems kind of dumb, but it has it's limitations. Unlike Fox's upsmash (which kills earlier, mind you) there aren't really set-ups into Mario's usmash.

Well technically landing dair > u-smash is true with Mario.

Not that having "set-ups" necessarily makes a move better mind you. Sure Fox can kill with landing dair/nair, but only if you don't DI them properly to avoid the u-smash.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Isn't Wario's upsmash just like the Mario brothers' upsmashes?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ugh, of all the moves to complain about...feel free to call it braindead but I'm going to call you wrong.

Yeah I know, it seems kind of dumb, but it has it's limitations. Unlike Fox's upsmash (which kills earlier, mind you) there aren't really set-ups into Mario's usmash. Meaning if you get hit by it, it's really no one's fault but yours. Plus he has to be at like point blank for it to hit and his running speed is nothing impressive. And yeah, it seems like it's pretty unpunishable, but it has 27 frames of endlag (hitbox is out frames 9-12, FAF is 40).

If you nerf usmash, Mario has what left for kill options? Fsmash and Bthrow?

There are dumber moves on better characters. Mind your spacing, don't throw out anything stupid, and you'll be fine.

Except Mario is actually a pretty decent runner, his head is intangible during the active frames, and it is very safe if you reverse it. So, a poking, killing, Anti Airing, roll punishing tool that you can throw out and generally walk away Scott-free. Not something I would want nerfing (I would tweak cloud at the most; not even nerf him fully. I would smash the bottom 20 characters with the buff hammer though), but let's call a spade a spade here.

 

[blackghost]

Bayonetta is still a bit up there in the rankings. Nice to see. Still haven't a clue how good she is atm. Good enough I suppose. Her Diddy matchup is pretty depressing, so that doesn't bode too well

i dont think her future is looking the best. she has shiek disease without the normals to throw normals out and a lot of her kit looks scarer than it is. nair can be challenged relatively easily for example
players that understand how she works si oly will sit in shield or make her appraoch and really theres nothing she can do about it. she more so than any other character requires your opponent not know whats going on because most of what she does post patch isnt real. its a series of bad frame traps and requireing your opponent never attempt sdi of any kind. nothing comes out of dabk, nothing from witch twist with proper di and she has no appraoches.
bad normals, small hitboxes, no keepaway bad grab game, and weak defensive manuvers(exception of her godly tech roll sakurai is a troll) that character is labeled not solo viable. thats where i think shes headed.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

i dont think her future is looking the best. she has shiek disease without the normals to throw normals out and a lot of her kit looks scarer than it is. nair can be challenged relatively easily for example
players that understand how she works si oly will sit in shield or make her appraoch and really theres nothing she can do about it. she more so than any other character requires your opponent not know whats going on because most of what she does post patch isnt real. its a series of bad frame traps and requireing your opponent never attempt sdi of any kind. nothing comes out of dabk, nothing from witch twist with proper di and she has no appraoches.
bad normals, small hitboxes, no keepaway bad grab game, and weak defensive manuvers(exception of her godly tech roll sakurai is a troll) that character is labeled not solo viable. thats where i think shes headed.

Nah she still has good stuff bro she ain't garbage. Bair, Dtilt (even with range reductions leads to strong combos), Uair, Nair, Jab, and situationally speaking Ftilt are all good buttons in the neutral. She still has true combos (can't list them all, go the bayo discord for that), and she still has bullet climax and Bullet normals to force approaches and has grounded Side B to stuff them. Edgeguarding is still the best in the game by far (I always questioned if edgeguarding was something worth mentioning ever since people said MK was a edgeguarding character and now he has little rep after the nerf. But bayo is truly something special). Witch time still does +20% when set up right.

Nah man she's still very strong be lucky we ain't somebody like D3, or bowser Jr. (Especially him), who feel like incomplete characters.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Nah she still has good stuff bro she ain't garbage. Bair, Dtilt (even with range reductions leads to strong combos), Uair, Nair, Jab, and situationally speaking Ftilt are all good buttons in the neutral. She still has true combos (can't list them all, go the bayo discord for that), and she still has bullet climax and Bullet normals to force approaches and has grounded Side B to stuff them. Edgeguarding is still the best in the game by far (I always questioned if edgeguarding was something worth mentioning ever since people said MK was a edgeguarding character and now he has little rep after the nerf. But bayo is truly something special). Witch time still does +20% when set up right.

Nah man she's still very strong be lucky we ain't somebody like D3, or bowser Jr. (Especially him), who feel like incomplete characters.

I wouldn't really call her edgeguarding the best in the game, yes its strong but its not the best

Personally I would call it a tie between Pikachu and MK

 

[LancerStaff]

Weekend results.

Sumabato 11 (June 18th) (Japan) (181 Entrants) (Category 2)
-snip-

Any idea how much Earth used Corrin, if at all?

Also guys, that's three 9ths and a 5th for Pit in the past few days. Just sayin'.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Well technically landing dair > u-smash is true with Mario.

Not that having "set-ups" necessarily makes a move better mind you. Sure Fox can kill with landing dair/nair, but only if you don't DI them properly to avoid the u-smash.

Oh really? I was unaware of this. I knew there were some shenanigans out of landing dair but I didn't realize that usmash was true. Are there any videos on this? I'm super interested now

 

[Das Koopa]

So, the only ones from the cast that didn't make it to top 16s this weekend were . What an unpredictable outcome. Also, Das Koopa , Breakout III had free Mii right?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1itcOaAwJNa287XcusPzcBLnhYWu4tqGaRYST4KR19f4/edit

(Says 1.1.4 but this was the ruleset linked on B3's Facebook event page.)

Nope, Zyth appears to be a 1111 Mii Brawler main.

...Speaking of, Brawler looks like a fighting wire frame out there.

Props to him, he must be some sort of sadist.

Do you or anyone else know anything about Citi and Vanity? Game & Watch mains are somewhat rare but they do exist and tend to get reasonable results.

I only discovered who Citi used through some vods of a Mexican weekly, sadly I dunno anything about either.

Any idea how much Earth used Corrin, if at all?

I don't know how much Corrin was used, no.

 

[Jucchan]

Any idea how much Earth used Corrin, if at all?

Also guys, that's three 9ths and a 5th for Pit in the past few days. Just sayin'.

Earth only used Corrin against Komorikiri, all other games that day were with Pit.

 

[Routa]

Isn't Wario's upsmash just like the Mario brothers' upsmashes?

Yes and no. It is a lot laggier than other Mario Bros.' and in general not as safe to throw out.

 

[Pyr]

On the other hand, his Up-Smash is easily the most silly of the Mario Bros.

Spoiler

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Jams.

I'd like to help you answering your own question regarding Peach!

Who are the high- and top-level players that have actually lost to a Peach in Smash 4? What characters do they use? Who do these Peach players lose to? Once you've figured out these things you can start putting these results into context: most of her results are coming from the same three players [Kie, Umeki, SlayerZ], three players that have already solo mained her throughout Brawl's entire lifespan [!]. Now when you look at Peach's matchup-specific results and keep the collosal amount of skill involved in mind what do you see? Is there anything there that implies Peach to be better than mid tier? Who would she be better a character than? Who does she actually well against.

My impression is that she does poorly against all of the top 3 characters [Diddy Kong, Sheik and Cloud ], which already disqualifies her from being a 'viable' character in my book. She may decent matchups against Sonic, Bayonetta or Fox but overall she doesn't pose enough of a threat to high-tier characters to be really up there. She may go even with most of them and beat one or the other but to me that's more the sign of a high-mid tier character than a full-fledged high tier.

Feel free to prove me wrong if you think I am though.

 

[verbatim]

Where are you getting loses to shiek from, I can't say that I've heard that one before?

Also tonight is Japan at Xanadu, won't be able to watch live but it'll be really cool to get to see Rain/Nientono/Umeki(!) play more against a wider variety of characters.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Is it wierd that I think the only things keeping Charizard from the upper echelons of mid is his sluggish air mobility? Otherwise, his kit is remarkably solid; you see him much more often than, say, 'Dorf or Zelda, too.

Right now, I'd say Charizard is probably C- tier, at least in terms of ability. He's been slowly gaining presence, and I think placing him in E at all is doing a massive disservice to his current build and ability. D at worst, but not E.

 

[blackghost]

Nah she still has good stuff bro she ain't garbage. Bair, Dtilt (even with range reductions leads to strong combos), Uair, Nair, Jab, and situationally speaking Ftilt are all good buttons in the neutral. She still has true combos (can't list them all, go the bayo discord for that), and she still has bullet climax and Bullet normals to force approaches and has grounded Side B to stuff them. Edgeguarding is still the best in the game by far (I always questioned if edgeguarding was something worth mentioning ever since people said MK was a edgeguarding character and now he has little rep after the nerf. But bayo is truly something special). Witch time still does +20% when set up right.

Nah man she's still very strong be lucky we ain't somebody like D3, or bowser Jr. (Especially him), who feel like incomplete characters.

dtilt leads to fair 1 or upair thats it after that nothing is real. jab from bayo terrible. not something you should be gettong hot woth normally. nair isnt safe in neutral. ftilt recovery is awful. edgauarding from her is nice but that doesnt make her character solo viable. shirk, cloud, zss, kirby, mk, peach, villager, luigi, mario ect all have edgegaurding skills that can lead to easy kills. shes isnt doing anything uniqie there.
a lot of players keep saying "she has potential" that is entirely based on speculation. and personally i dont buy it as much as when ryu wasnt getting results becuase more aboit his character was actually scary for bayo its not true.

 

[arbustopachon]

I think that Zard needs like 5 frames less of endlag on f-tilt, d-tilt and fair. Plus endlag reductions on nair and fair and a startup reduction on nair in order to not be a low tier character. A jumpsquat reduction to 5 would help him a lot too. Zard has a severe lack of safe pokes when compared with the other heavies, which is kinda dumb since he is supposed to be the fast smalll heavy.

Buffing his air speed could be kinda dangerous as you risk giving him a hoo-ha, and Zard with a hoo-ha would be kinda disgusting. An air acceleration buff on the other hand would work wonders for his disadvantaged state. Combine with a faster nair and Zard's disadvantage wouldn't be that terrible.

Also dream buff: Early dash attack becomes a kill move, late dash attack launches on a 30º angle. This buff would completely justify Zard's iffy dash grab.

While i do agree that zard has been masively buffed since release, i think that he still is on the lower end of the cast. Mostly because his risk vs reward ratio is heavily tilted towards the risk part, in part because most of his moves are laggy and in part because his disadvantage sucks.

He does have a couple of very good moves like jab, u-smash and bair at the very least. And even if laggy his kit works, he just is kinda undertuned.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

While i do agree that zard has been masively buffed since release, i think that he still is on the lower end of the cast. Mostly because his risk vs reward ratio is heavily tilted towards the risk part, in part because most of his moves are laggy and in part because his disadvantage sucks

I agree he's not A-Tier material (at least, not without big changes), but to see Charizard in or very near the bottom of some tier lists is just not accurate; he has plenty of use in tournaments, he just doesn't win many because there are better characters to take tournaments with.

Still, he's at worst D-Tier. E or F are just not viable categories for him; he still has a decent amount of dedicated mains, Charizards do show up regularly to tournaments and while they don't tend to win, they at least can place. He's undertuned, not outright awful, so his tier placing should reflect that; he's also not a once-in-a-blue moon character with very few dedicated mains, like the other guys in E and F.

 

[Ghostbone]

You can't just throw about arbitrary letters and claim charizard should be in a tier with a letter closer to A because he's not "outright awful".

Moving Charizard up out of low tier requires you to move him above other characters. Is charizard actually better than 15 characters in this game? I doubt it. There are other "not awful" characters that find themselves relegated to low tier because not awful isn't good enough to be mid tier.

 

[Luigi player]

Weekend results.

Apex 2016 (June 17th-19th) (Tristate) (309 Entrants) (Category 2)

Spoiler

1st: Dabuz
2nd: VoiD ,
3rd: Nietono ,
4th: Mew2King
5th: Supergirlkels
5th: Marss
7th: Tweek
7th: James ,
9th: The Great Gonzales
9th: Umeki
9th: RAIN
9th: Mr. E
13th: Day
13th: Pugwest
13th: 6WX
13th: Raptor

Breakout III (June 18th) (Midwest) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)

Spoiler

1st: Ally ,
2nd: Rayquaza07 ,
3rd: Seagull Joe
4th: Blacktwins ,
5th: Miloni
5th: Ryuga
7th: Zinoto
7th: LOE1 ,
9th: Zyth ,
9th: GP Linus
9th: AoH Vanity
9th: GG Nom
13th: Adorable Knight
13th: Ge0
13th: FS Chris
13th: Zidico

@ apex result:
James is actually a Luigi main.. who apparently co-mains Cloud. He used Luigi to win his pools WF set against ADHD, and won game 1 of the top 32 bracket round 1 against 6WX. He made it obvious in his interview that he thinks Luigi is *** against Cloud so obviously he didn't use him. I'm not sure how much Diddy he actually uses, but the only time I saw or heard of it was against M2Ks Cloud, where he lost all 3 games, all other games where he didn't use Luigi he probably used Cloud (like against Marss and Mr. E).

@ breakout III result:
LOE1 is also a Luigi main. Didn't see the tournament so idk if he didn't use him this time or if he suddenly switched mains...

 

[wedl!!]

you can't throw around tier letters without defining them.

who is zard above? who's around them? who's getting results with them to make them comparable to other "low tier heroes" (robin, link, etc)?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

you can't throw around tier letters without defining them.

who is zard above? who's around them? who's getting results with them to make them comparable to other "low tier heroes" (robin, link, etc)?

I mean on the current official Smashboards SSB4BR list.

I don't think Charizard is at all close to S, A or B; but I think anywhere in mid-tier is good enough. He's not near bottom, and that's for sure; if any super heavy is near bottom of the list awful, it'd be Dedede, not Charizard. He's getting better results than everybody in the tiers below mid.
Again, anywhere in mid is the more appropriate place for Zard. We've seen him in tournament play, we know he's at least viable with a secondary to cover disadvantageous MU's. At worst, he'd be low-tier.

But I cannot buy him being worse than Dedede, the character that's basically only prevalent in Japan.

 

[verbatim]

That would be I tier vs H tier then. E tier is stuff like Megaman and DK.

I also really wouldn't worry about the back room tier list if I were you. It is very much out of date and was of questionable reliability even when it was released on the day of a major patch.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Yeah, that's my fault for forgetting to look up the image untill now; I meant I vs H.

Honestly, I'd even accept him in the bottom of G. But any bottom-tier place is just too low, considering his representation in tournaments.

 

[Zelder]

Yeah, that's my fault for forgetting to look up the image untill now; I meant I vs H.

Honestly, I'd even accept him in the bottom of G. But any bottom-tier place is just too low, considering his representation in tournaments.

You are wildly too invested in your character and it clouds your ability to be objective about how good/bad Charizard is. Tier lists aren't something you bargain with, they're just a best guess of how characters perform at top level of play. Theoretically, they shouldn't even be affected by tournament placing - MK was the best character in Brawl, but if for some reason no one played him in tournaments - like say, a curse was put on him that killed everyone after 3 sets - he wouldn't stop being the best character just because he had no usage. That's an incredibly dumb hypothetical, but I hope you get my overall point.

edit: Also, why does it matter exactly where Charizard places on the tier list? This ain't Melee, you could probably go to a local and put in some good work with Charizard.

SUPER DOUBLE EDIT: A less dumb comparison would be that, according to Das Koopa 's latest weighted results, Marth and Ryu have the same level of tournament presence, but I would be skeptical of anyone arguing they're equally good.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

say, a curse was put on him that killed everyone after 3 sets

that could have saved brawl tbh

 

[Peppermint1201]

https://twitter.com/ykryzk/status/745072120313552898
How is roy's neutral

By this person's logic Palutena is worst-in-game, not Roy.

 

[Jams.]

that could have saved brawl tbh

Nah, most of the community would just be literally dead instead of figuratively dead.

I mean on the current official Smashboards SSB4BR list.

I don't think Charizard is at all close to S, A or B; but I think anywhere in mid-tier is good enough. He's not near bottom, and that's for sure; if any super heavy is near bottom of the list awful, it'd be Dedede, not Charizard. He's getting better results than everybody in the tiers below mid.
Again, anywhere in mid is the more appropriate place for Zard. We've seen him in tournament play, we know he's at least viable with a secondary to cover disadvantageous MU's. At worst, he'd be low-tier.

But I cannot buy him being worse than Dedede, the character that's basically only prevalent in Japan.

Where are his results coming from? Das Koopa compiles a viability list based on top 16 placings at larger events, and Charizard isn't even on the list. To me it seems like his results are in the same tier as Jigglypuff and 1111 Miis.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ya uh, Dedede actually does have some rep in NA. Big D has gotten some results and I think is PR'd in his region. Believe there is another PR'd D3 out there as well.

As much as I want to like Charizard... he just kinda sucks and truly has no relevant results. He belongs in bottom tier atm... and if anything he's going to drop. Palutena and Samus have put in some work since the last list. Charizard has not.

 

[williamsga555]

He's getting better results than everybody in the tiers below mid.

==========

But I cannot buy him being worse than Dedede, the character that's basically only prevalent in Japan.

Not going to get into the character debate, but want to correct this "only Japan" claim. If anything, Japan's the main region he's NOT prevalent in. Europe, Mexico, and parts of the US (Northwest, Midwest in particular) all have notable D3's. Australia is a question mark, really not sure on his rep there.

Also skeptical about Zard's results being better than all characters below mid. The common argument against Zard almost always points at his lack of results and rep, so where are all of these results at?

Honestly, I don't have any idea where I'd place him, but this argument in favor of him feels like grasping, with all due respect. Would love to be shown wrong, though. Character insight is always nice.

 

[Scrubtorights]

How important is jumping and jumpsquats in the meta game and does it increase the gap of mid tiers and top tiers even higher than it already is if jumpsquats were just equal? Just curious.

 

[Kofu]

How important is jumping and jumpsquats in the meta game and does it increase the gap of mid tiers and top tiers even higher than it already is if jumpsquats were just equal? Just curious.

Jumpsquats range from frame 4 to frame 8. Anything past 6 feels sluggish to me.

It impacts OoS options, followup aerials, and the ability to jump away from ground pressure. So, quite a lot. I can't say how equalizing jumpsquats would affect the cast but it would remove some complains.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

To expand on my point;

The biggest reason Zard isn't getting results and is placed low, at least to me, stems from the simple fact that people don't see him as viable, which sort of creates a vicious cycle in which people think Charizard isn't viable > Nobody really extensively plays Charizard because it's not safe > Nobody knows if Charizard really is viable or not > Repeat.

It's kind of like how Melee Mewtwo shot up in viability once we had people like Taj showing how he was viable and started placing well; if, for example, M2K picked up Charizard as a secondary or pocket and played him as well as he does his mains, I'd be confident that we'd all be singing a very different tune in regards to Charizard's tier placements.

 

[Blobface]

Mario's U-smash is good, but I struggle to see how it's too strong. If anything 90% of it's strength is just Mario being good at juggling, and he has plenty of weaknesses to compensate.

That being said the aural damage it can deal is way too high and needs a massive nerf. YEEHAW.

 

[ARGHETH]

The biggest reason Zard isn't getting results and is placed low, at least to me, stems from the simple fact that people don't see him as viable, which sort of creates a vicious cycle in which people think Charizard isn't viable > Nobody really extensively plays Charizard because it's not safe > Nobody knows if Charizard really is viable or not > Repeat.

And yet Palutena and Samus mains exist and do well.

 

[verbatim]

Ya uh, Dedede actually does have some rep in NA. Big D has gotten some results and I think is PR'd in his region. Believe there is another PR'd D3 out there as well

BigD (Canada)
El Bardo (Spain)

IDK if he's PR or not but whiteout is a Texas DDD that recently 2-0'd Trela in winners (he got the runback tho).

 

[Peppermint1201]

this has been covered in this thread before but Dedede will sometimes get surprise wins because he commands matchup experience. he is not a character you can "wing it" against because you wont expect the speed at which gordos travel, the random low lag on bair and downsmash, etc. he's not good but can bank on surprise factor. not only does this explain Texas DDD > Trela but Big D > Mew2king at genesis and that time King James beat Zinoto