• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Radical Larry

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
1,994
Location
The Pocket Dimension
NNID
Crimson-Vulcan
3DS FC
1822-3761-9326
I'll give that thing an A for effort, @TDK
However, the fact remains that this might not be an accurate measure for the tier list, especially with characters so low or so high. Characters like Samus and Wario seem to be too low whilst characters like Bayonetta and Bowser seem a little too high. Look, it's still too early to tell what's to happen now, but all I can see is something very similar to this, but not exact.
 

Nocally

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
210
Location
Denmark
3DS FC
3840-6058-2117
Sometimes I get the feeling that people is not really hating on Pikachu, but more on ESAM instead because those two are heavily associated with each other, or they hate the Pika-talk based on ESAMs claims (we all know that Esam thinks highly of pikachu, which grinds some peoples gears).

Pikachu might be a heated subject/topic, but the character is not as hated as 1.1.5 Bayonetta, at least that is my assumption. It's not the fault of the character that people avoid the topic of the mouse, it is you people in this thread that made it so. people should not be afraid of talking about Pikachu, keeping him out of the conversation does not benefit anyone at all. By not talking about Pikachu, we cannot right the wrongs this thread believe it has made on the perception of a character that clearly is more relevant than talking about nonsensical buffs to Jigglypuff or Ganondorf etc.
 

Trifroze

all is cheese, all is jank
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
1,236
Location
Finland
NNID
Trifroze
The problem is mainly that no progress is ever done when talking about Pikachu and it just keeps going back and forth. Other characters have been (and are) in a similar state.

Normally discussion about a character should go like this:

user 1: ZSS is too good why is she not the best character in the game
user 2: bad grab and no rising aerials so strengths are balanced out
-> from now on user 2's information becomes common knowledge and user 1's question is bashed every time it's made in the future

With Pikachu it goes like this:

user 1: Pikachu is amazing he edgeguards everyone and is hard to hit and has one of the best neutrals and QA
user 2: edgeguarding isn't a reliable killing method, he lacks range and mobility so he doesn't have good follow-ups past low percents, he's generally unsafe and has to trade and lose those trades a lot, and QA is a good move but it has clear counterplay
user 3: Pikachu is amazing he edgeguards everyone and is hard to hit and has one of the best neutrals and QA
...

Pikachu stuff gets bashed because the same fallacies keep getting brought up over and over, and the ones praising him literally never make an objective review of the character, leaving the weaknesses completely out. People are tired of it because it's gone on for so long in this way, and people should be tired about this for a few other characters as well at this point.

For example, when a Greninja wins a local the subject gets 2 pages of posts, and some people are still convinced Pits are underused for other reasons than their capability. And Link. Stop fffffffffffffffffffFFFFFFF****** mentioning Link Larry.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Like DHD's smash attacks? Or bowser Jr's jab? Or D3's Jab?

Multi hitting moves NEED to be consistent or they're gonna be garbage (most of the time).
This reminds me of Ken's Fierce Shoryuken in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Half the time it won't juggle properly and Ken's opponent gets a free punish. And since death combos are a thing in ST, that is no bueno.

Multi hits should always work. Yes, it is good game design.

Sorry if you disagree, but consistency is a thing.
 

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
This reminds me of Ken's Fierce Shoryuken in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Half the time it won't juggle properly and Ken's opponent gets a free punish. And since death combos are a thing in ST, that is no bueno.

Multi hits should always work. Yes, it is good game design.

Sorry if you disagree, but consistency is a thing.
The reason to use Fierce SRK lies in the fact that it hits Frame 1 so on reversal it is an immediate hitbox and additionally it can punish jumps from further away than LP SRK, its purpose doesn't really lie in damage outside of crossup mixups (it's pretty potent after a J.MK because it's technically his fastest move on the ground at frame 1) unless you're playing Hyper Fighting for CPS1 in which case Ken had a reliable ToD with it from a jump in into standing HP into Fierce DP. ST Fierce Shoryu's Frame 1 property gives it a unique use against safejumps that Ken's other shoryus don't give him, as well. I don't think ST Ken Fierce DP is a good example of unreliable multihits for bad design. I'd cite Honda's Headbutt Super first. That **** costs meter and barely connects right

Gonna leave now but just felt like clarifying. Some multihits having bad linking is intentional because of everything else the move does. Obviously Fierce SRK doesn't see a lot of use in ST but falling out of a multihit in Smash often results in less punishment than whiffing a big DP in a game where you don't want to overly commit if it won't hit for fear of instant corner-death or pressure.
 
Last edited:

Krysco

Aeon Hero
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
2,005
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
Krysco
3DS FC
2122-7731-1180
That to me looks like a very similar case. Only real difference was the ZSS example started with a question of 'what's bad enough about her to keep her from the top?' followed by an answer while the Pika one was 'here's the good things about my character' followed by a list of flaws. Greninja and Link are similar since they're ranging from high mid to low depending on who you ask. Generally seems like the top characters get downplayed while everyone below that gets talked up to more than what they're meant to be.

The Pika head icon does pop up every now and again in the top 8s that are posted here thanks to the like of Esam and others (the only other that comes to mind is Z? Don't recall if that was a Pika player) so the character isn't hopeless. Like, teddystalin;s post on the last page had a list of characters that are in that 'high tier to high mid tier' range and beside Pika was 'arguably'. To my understanding, Pika has a Mario problem but does he have a poor mu with every top tier? Does he win any? I see Ryu mentioned every now and again but then Emblem Lord says otherwise which opens room for honest debate if anyone actually cared to delve into it with a good understanding of both characters (getting out ranged isn't everything and trades won't always happen)
 

Luco

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
9,232
Location
The isle of venom, Australia
NNID
dracilus
3DS FC
2638-1462-5558
We're still at an uncertain stage of the meta. Patches have continued their relentless march and it's speculation as to whether the Bayo nerf patch was indeed the final patch, as has been the case since the game released (Does anyone remember "Oh they'll just fix Diddy then leave the rest alone kthnx"?)

At this point in time, much like with tier list V1 we do not need exact placings for this stage of the meta but indications, further honing in of where we believe characters will end up on theoretical versions 3 and 4 of such a list. That is to say, don't post your TLV2's just yet, but I think it's important to remember we just don't know everything sooooo it's okay to act like it. :)

Don't think people hate ESAM too much, it's more of the idea that people are going to stick their heads in the sand when he makes an opinion, it's just everyone forgot that most top players are known for their seemingly outlandish opinions (well, according to us anyway :p), I'm pretty sure people were even shocked originally by Dabuz's tier list until he started explaining things about it to them.

I think the thread has bigger trauma associated with the people who comment about how ridiculous these subjects are, no offense. I think most of the regulars by now are willing to sit down and have a decent discussion about Pikachu but like EVERY OTHER MEME we have to do backflips through critical reflexivity for 100 pages before we actually begin to discuss things. Greninja mains still feeling that 'better nerf greninja' meme? Did I mention I loved that meme to bits because it wasn't about Greninja at all? Meanwhile I still don't actually know if AC Nair will be totally safe vs half the cast or not. Hey remember how over-rated Yoshi is? But what if Yoshi's EVEN WORSE THAN WE THOUGHT??

In other words what ACTUALLY happens in this thread is a name gets brought up, then everyone does that critical reflexivity thing I mentioned and talks about how we responded to it last time, and then we skip over it and the next time it's brought up we insist that we talked about Pikachu a mere 3 pages ago when in fact we actually just discussed the state of this thread 3 pages ago and brought not a shred of relevant evidence to the table regarding Pikachu at all.

Except for those rare times when someone does say something productive but it usually gets drowned out faster than you can say Palutena is under-rated. A lot of people view this thread and everyone has different catch-up speeds, so when someone asks an age old question about RAR Thunder you quote them Shaya's old post about it and continue discussing your damn characters. :p

Love all of yas btw. <3
 
Last edited:

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
The reason to use Fierce SRK lies in the fact that it hits Frame 1 so on reversal it is an immediate hitbox and additionally it can punish jumps from further away than LP SRK, its purpose doesn't really lie in damage outside of crossup mixups (it's pretty potent after a J.MK because it's technically his fastest move on the ground at frame 1) unless you're playing Hyper Fighting for CPS1 in which case Ken had a reliable ToD with it from a jump in into standing HP into Fierce DP. ST Fierce Shoryu's Frame 1 property gives it a unique use against safejumps that Ken's other shoryus don't give him, as well. I don't think ST Ken Fierce DP is a good example of unreliable multihits for bad design. I'd cite Honda's Headbutt Super first. That **** costs meter and barely connects right

Gonna leave now but just felt like clarifying. Some multihits having bad linking is intentional because of everything else the move does. Obviously Fierce SRK doesn't see a lot of use in ST but falling out of a multihit in Smash often results in less punishment than whiffing a big DP in a game where you don't want to overly commit if it won't hit for fear of instant corner-death or pressure.
Umm its a perfect example imo. If I want to scare sumone into NOT attempting a safe jump, then I want a RELIABLE tool.

And yeah Hondas super headbutt is an amazing example. Giving up a resource only to have it not work due to bad programming is soul crushing.

HDR all day homie.
 

Eugene Wang

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
148
Alright, let me try to lay to rest the idea that multi hits are redundant if they always connect.

Some people think that a multiunit that always connects is a cinematic that could be replaced with one single hit. It can't. To understand why, I'll give an example. Let's say we have an attack that hits on frame 5, then on frame 10. If an opponent gets hit by the frame 5 move, it links into the frame 10 move, and the opponents gets dealt the full damage. However, if the opponent gets hit by the frame 10 move but not the frame 5 move, he/she/it gets dealt partial damage.

So what would could replicate the effects?

An single-hit attack that hits on frame 5 wouldn't do it. An opponent that would otherwise get hit by the frame 10 move escapes damage entirely.

A single-hit attack that hits on frame 10 wouldn't do it. An opponent that would be hit by the frame 5 move might move so that he/she avoids the frame 10 move.

A single-hit attack that stays out from frames 5-10 wouldn't do it. An opponent that gets hit on frame 5 would receive the same damage as one that gets hit on frame 10.

A single-hit attack that stays out from frames 5-10, with partial damage after frame 5, wouldn't do it. An opponent hit on frame 5 would experience the final hit on frame 5 rather than frame 10. (Yes, in practice, this frame difference would be small, but most multihits span more frames.)


"But what about spacing?" There's a reason why sweetspots exist. And since multihit attacks tend to be longer than single-hit attacks, falling out of a multihit implies being in a position to punish the attacker. It's the same reason as why Zelda mains complain about the sourspots on Lightning Kick. It's unsafe on hit unless very precisely spaced, which is very much a good reason to consider a move crud.

"What if the game designers wanted to punish bad spacing with a multiunit?" Easy. Sourspots. Or varying mutlihit hotbox sizes.

"The developers wanted to punish bad spacing by making the move unsafe on hit if not properly spaced." There's a such thing as developers being lazy, unaware, or a million other things. They're not gods.
 

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
Umm its a perfect example imo. If I want to scare sumone into NOT attempting a safe jump, then I want a RELIABLE tool.

And yeah Hondas super headbutt is an amazing example. Giving up a resource only to have it not work due to bad programming is soul crushing.

HDR all day homie.
I don't entirely disagree but HP SRK is good for a multitude of things outside of safejump stuffing. If you toss it out after a crossup or jump-in it will basically always combo if you time it right because its frame 1. Unless you space it poorly. Works better after crossups. I just don't think it's a perfect example of a bad multihit move, I think it's FLAWED in certain aspects but it does what it does pretty well and reliably enough when used properly.

Honda headbutt is basically the most unreliable multihitting move in ST though, by far. I don't know wtf they were doing with that nonsense LOL. If you want a real story, my friend and I were doing Honda mirrors and I dizzy'd him, did the headbutt super, it phased through him, then he just Fierce'd my ass and I died.

Never again will Honda's headbutt super be that terrible. It's also the poster boy for undertuned moves. As a super in ST it's unsafe on block (not many are in ST, like Cammy's and Honda's are the real ones that come to mind that are) but additionally it has regular headbutt priority outside of its inconsistent hit rate meaning it just loses to jabs too. Greaat.

TL;DR I think Smash has some unreliable multihits but the gameflow lets you make interesting use of them SOMETIMES (drag-down moves that eject people are really fun edgeguards).

Aight that's all I got though, carry on.
 
Last edited:

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
Blaming people who think Pikachu is good is ridiculous Trifroze Trifroze ... Because the actual points are not fought by logic/theory, but instead by "where are the results" which is as doubly irrelevant as it is false in the context of the theoretical conversation. So then the person arguing in favor of Pikachu makes a post about the results Pikachu does have, it is ignored, and the thread moves on because Pikachu discussion is cancer.

Oh, and my favorite line: "Pikachu's matchup spread isn't that good", followed by mentioning no matchups that the character actually loses and strawmanning by bringing up results. It's practically a buzzword at this point and...pretty objectively untrue. I feel like people don't realize that a character maybe losing 4-5 matchups total is better than average for a top character by far. Every single character other than Cloud and Sheik has at least 3 -1 (or worse obviously) matchups, most more.

We can have a fruitful discussion if people will accept and understand certain things instead of ignoring what they don't want to hear. It's simple, yet simultaneously difficult because the inevitable conclusion to every Pikachu discussion is someone irrelevant statistics or blank assertion that somehow becomes authoritative/factual. The discussion can work if most of the thread doesn't engage in blind ignorance.
 
Last edited:

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
For example, when a Greninja wins a local the subject gets 2 pages of posts, and some people are still convinced Pits are underused for other reasons than their capability. And Link. Stop fffffffffffffffffffFFFFFFF****** mentioning Link Larry.
well the local had 135 entrants and the greninja player in question beat two notable players twice in bracket.

I just brought it up because greninja has gotten nothing but bad rep for a while, so I wanted to highlight someone other than iStudying doing good things with the character. And are discussion was limited mostly to the greninja players in this thread about the future of our main. What is wrong with that? I would get rant about why greninja discussion irritates me in this thread but I have some better things to do.

:150:
 

Radical Larry

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
1,994
Location
The Pocket Dimension
NNID
Crimson-Vulcan
3DS FC
1822-3761-9326
You know what? I'm just going to ignore what Trifroze said, just going to blow that last sentence out away.

Now who wants to talk about, I don't know, a character who isn't usually talked about much on here or whom we haven't touched on in a while? :4gaw::4falco: or :4dedede: anyone? I'm about ready to talk about Dedede myself, being someone who was in the paradigm that he was...well...pretty terrible. That's the thing about characters, if you simply put at least a month or two in a character, you end up actually thinking the character's far better than you thought.
 

Sleek Media

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
1,399
Fair is good can combo into each other is pretty safe and is hugely disjointed. Also up smash does go though platforms and comes out fast enough. You cant just list his moves and all its negatives some that are even wrong and say oh this character is **** and broken.
This is the kind of misinformation I was talking about. Do you have a good reason for outright lying to make fAir sound better than it is? It doesn't combo into itself at any percent. It is also not "hugely disjointed", being outspaced by most fAirs and bAirs (including Mega's own bAir). It is only safe when fading with it against opponents lacking burst mobility. Usmash goes through SOME platforms, but only every other hit. That's because the hitbox alternates between two sizes for each spark. In practice, this allows people to escape the attack easily when they are stuck on battlefield.

The reason we don't talk about the "good" points of attacks like fAir is because they are never good options. Any time you can use fAir, you should use bAir. Faster, more damage, more knock back, more active frames, more range. Usmash is weak and unreliable, but it has utility for being easier to land than the otherwise superior uTilt, and also true combos out of MB follow ups at higher percent, when uTilt stops connecting. Try to have a reasonable discussion next time.

In regards to Sleek Media's quote above, one thing that really triggers me is that many people assume all multihits are meant to link 100% of the time in all situations and call any move failing to do so unfinished or badly designed. It's always been a natural property of those moves that they require proper spacing to hit all the way through, not vacuum the opponent in for a short cinematic of him getting hit (which it admittedly feels like sometimes since SDI is so weak in this game).
This actually made me stop to think for a little about multi hits. I came up with three questions. Feel free to provide your own answers - I'm interested in knowing why you think Mega's one usable smash shouldn't even connect properly.

Are the moves I mentioned not linking because the opponent SDIs out, or because the move just spits them out on its own? (They all spit the opponent out and cannot be SDId if they hit properly, with the possible exception of uAir's final windbox).

Is there a reason that the moves would be designed to be inconsistent, and does it make sense to get punished on hit? (No, no character is designed with this flaw, and many other characters have had similar moves fixed).

When a multi-hit move is adjusted in a balance patch, is it ever made to link improperly, or have they always made moves that don't link properly link better? (I can't think of any multi hit moves that became unreliable, but several have been patched to link properly.)
 

FullMoon

i'm just joking with you
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,095
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
NNID
INFullMoon
There was like half a page of Greninja talk at most and sure it went for two pages but that's because the first post talking about Greninja was literally the fifth to last post in the first page.

Most of us weren't even talking about Greninja winning a local and more about the players Venia, a pretty unknown player overall, beat during said local. I don't know you but I think a fairly unknown player beating Mr. E twice in the same tournament while also beating Pink Fresh 4-0 in GFs (though it's really weird that it was Bo3 and not Bo5 but that's an aside) after being sent to losers by him is pretty notable no matter what character said player uses.

I get that Greninja talk got tiresome ever since Beast VI happened but literally all that was said was "Yo, Venia just beat these two notable players that's pretty cool" and then there was a small back-and-forth between me and bc that went on for like, 4 posts. The character hasn't even been mentioned other than the occasional moment in a good while now.

I mean if hearing anything about Greninja is immediately triggering you people then I would be fine with just not posting here anymore (because really Greninja is the only character I'm informed of enough to be able to comfortably talk about here and really the only character that I actually care about in this game) if that's what you guys want.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
I know for a fact that have I think either 2-3 patches they tried to fix Charizard's Usmash so it connects a lot better.

It does, though sometimes it just doesn't with one wing on the side.
 
Last edited:

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
8,118
Location
Buried under 990+ weapons
3DS FC
1504-5709-4054
I'm guessing they tried fixing Pit's rapid jab a while ago by making the final hitbox bigger but it's still garbage, so...

Also they forgot to "fix" Dark Pit's for some reason and still haven't. They just gave up on the move or something, lol.
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,315
Location
Canada
There was like half a page of Greninja talk at most and sure it went for two pages but that's because the first post talking about Greninja was literally the fifth to last post in the first page.

Most of us weren't even talking about Greninja winning a local and more about the players Venia, a pretty unknown player overall, beat during said local. I don't know you but I think a fairly unknown player beating Mr. E twice in the same tournament while also beating Pink Fresh 4-0 in GFs (though it's really weird that it was Bo3 and not Bo5 but that's an aside) after being sent to losers by him is pretty notable no matter what character said player uses.

I get that Greninja talk got tiresome ever since Beast VI happened but literally all that was said was "Yo, Venia just beat these two notable players that's pretty cool" and then there was a small back-and-forth between me and bc that went on for like, 4 posts. The character hasn't even been mentioned other than the occasional moment in a good while now.

I mean if hearing anything about Greninja is immediately triggering you people then I would be fine with just not posting here anymore (because really Greninja is the only character I'm informed of enough to be able to comfortably talk about here and really the only character that I actually care about in this game) if that's what you guys want.
It's fine.

The backlash towards any sort of Greninja talk is unfortunate, but don't let it get to you. It's not like any of you are actively making the thread worse, and your posts in particular are usually pretty informed/impartial.
 

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
ZeRo's next tier list part:


12: :4bayonetta:
13: :4pikachu:
14: :4ness:
15: :4yoshi:
16: :4metaknight:
17: :4villager:
18: :4dk:
19: :4megaman:
20: :4pit::4darkpit:
21: :4falcon:
22: :4luigi:

First part of his list:
1: :4ryu:
2: :4cloud2:
3: :4sonic:
4: :rosalina:
5: :4zss:
6: :4sheik:
7: :4diddy:
8: :4fox:
9: :4mewtwo:
10: :4corrinf:

ESAM's list so far:


As he's said, characters within each section aren't ordered:

If they had 1 more thing they'd be godlike: :4dk::4luigi::4greninja::4tlink::4marth::4olimar::4megaman::4lucario::4peach::4robinf::4yoshi:
Potential Tier: :4pit::4darkpit::4myfriends::4kirby::4lucas::4wario2:
Fatal Flaw Tier: :4pacman::4littlemac::4palutena::4bowser::4charizard::4samus:
Bad, but Scary: :4drmario::4shulk::4zelda::4feroy::4link::4dedede:
Pretty Awful: :4bowserjr::4wiifit::4falco::4lucina:
Bottom of the Barrel: :4jigglypuff: :4ganondorf: :4duckhunt:
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
For example, when a Greninja wins a local the subject gets 2 pages of posts
Firstly this is an exaggeration, and secondly you cannot really blame people for this. People have an irrational expectation of the results this character should be getting before he's considered "relevant".

If people would actually be willing to discuss the character's strengths, weaknesses, MUs and shortcomings from time to time (no, not all the time), rather than the constant circlejerk of "he's overrated" "he's underrated" "he has no results" then it wouldn't be such a big deal when he wins anything and we would actually get some good discussion. Which this thread is sorely lacking these days. And - get this - we wouldn't need to jump at every chance to talk about him.

To that end:

@ItsRainingGravy Really enjoyed your post, but I'd note that Sonic is a worse MU for Greninja than Sheik at this point. I wouldn't class either as a gatekeeper but they're not in his favour. This is a big blow to his viability, as both are common/potential top 5 picks. Though I still think having one of the better Diddy Kong MUs as well as IMO a very good Mario MU will serve the character well as the meta develops.
 
Last edited:

Zelder

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
477
Location
(location)
I've never heard of this Little Mac player before. Does he attend tournaments, and is there any footage of him playing? I'm curious.
Japan's smash scene is full of mysteries, but that guy is probably the biggest one of all. Nobody knows what region he's from, he's never shown up to a tournament, his tag is literally two slashes, and yet he's on a 16 game winning streak and ranked above all of Japan's best players.
God, I love it when my knowledge of Japan and my knowledge of anime line up perfectly. An unknown, unnamed player is devastating everyone with a low tier hero. He even uses the green wireframe Mac! That's perfect! Who is he? Where does he come from? Tune in next time to Super Smash Bros. 4 to find out!

Edit: I'm guessing it's either Ranai's secret brother, who we all thought died in that car crash at the beginning of the series, or literally Tuxedo Mask somehow.
 
Last edited:

Peppermint1201

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
300
Location
Pennsylvania
NNID
orangeguy1201
3DS FC
0361-7301-1534
You know what? if you simply put at least a month or two in a character, you end up actually thinking the character's far better than you thought.
Put a year in and you get the opposite impression. Nick Riddle's perception of ZSS, FOW's of Ness, MVD and ZeRo's of Diddy, Anti and Ally's of Mario, you get the picture.
 
Last edited:

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
37,936
Location
Um....Lost?
NNID
Swampasaur
3DS FC
4141-2776-0914
Switch FC
SW-6476-1588-8392
So...

Let's talk about low tier matchups for a change.

:4dedede:vs:4duckhunt:

Who wins and why?

I'm thinking Dedede because Duck Hunt is so light and doesn't have the kill power to really stop Dedede from inching his way in.

The projectiles will only end up giving Dedede rage.

Am I missing something?
 

Jams.

+15 Attack
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
542
Location
Calgary, AB
NNID
DumberChild
I think Pikachu discussion is just really stale. Pikachu, along with some other topics, got a disproportionate amount of discussion in this thread and past iterations of this thread. At this point, I'm sure all the thread regulars have heard basically all the arguments on both sides, and have generated their own opinions that are unlikely to change without new developments. When someone new comes into the thread to inquire about the character, the same veterans throw the same stale arguments back and forth and nothing fruitful happens.

I'd welcome Pikachu discussion if people could contribute something new.

For instance, when ANTi commented that Captain L's Pikachu was more difficult for him than ESAM's. That's really cool! Could this prove the hypothesis that ESAM doesn't play an optimal Pikachu in some MUs? Does Pikachu have another high level rep to watch out for (yes I know Captain L has been around forever and what he's done) that could add insight into Pikachu's metagame?

Likewise for Venia taking Xanadu. That's also really cool! Greninja finally has some more positive results after some period of stagnation. Some of Greninja's MUs that we've discussed in theory, like Bayonetta, get put into practice. Is this the NA rep that Greninja desperately needs to get into the spotlight?

New information is exciting and welcome, but also hard to come by regarding some of the most oft-discussed topics in this thread.
 
Last edited:

C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,554
Location
East Coast
That's the thing about characters, if you simply put at least a month or two in a character, you end up actually thinking the character's far better than you thought.
That's kind of a misnomer. I've been struggling with that very idea, actually. I'm investing time into characters and after a month or so going "Wow, this character isn't so great. Have I wasted my time?" It's worse when you approach a character with a mediocre opinion of them. Makes it hard to improve that opinion unless you were very off base to begin with. I think it should be that you ought to find a character you find strong or overlooked or a perfect fit for you to compete with.
 

Mario766

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,527
NNID
766
That potential tier triggers me. It's basically him not wanting to talk about them, and he has the nerve to say that Ike can't kill around ~80 because apparently having aerials that kill at 100, kill conversions and solid edgeguarding means that Ike can't kill.
 

Jehtt

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
268
Location
California
NNID
TurboJett
Any time you can use fAir, you should use bAir
It's an exaggeration to say that bair strictly outclasses fair in every single situation. Primarily, it is safer on block than bair is.
Fair being front facing gives it more utility in a few situations over bair. One that immediately comes to mind is as a reversal. If you're getting chased in the air, using fair to swat the opponent away and land isn't a bad idea. You can't do that with bair because it isn't front-facing. You can full hop rising fair and then fast fall it and it will autocancel. If you do this, you have the mixup option to land with shield or to land with something like lemons. If you're facing backwards because of bair, your mixup options in this situation are more limited since you have to turnaround to do anything other than shield.


This is from earlier but
One of the first things I noticed with Kamemushi is that he opts for a metal blade neutral over a pellet neutral, and the reason is that he has more options and better burst damage without the crippling lag.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that Kame doesn't use pellets in neutral. Take a look at this set. Kamemushi is using pellets a lot, even against Sheik who notoriously breaks through them with fair. He's actually air-to-airing Sheik with the sweetspot to mitigate the clanking, which I think is interesting.
 
Last edited:

FullMoon

i'm just joking with you
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,095
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
NNID
INFullMoon
It's fine.

The backlash towards any sort of Greninja talk is unfortunate, but don't let it get to you. It's not like any of you are actively making the thread worse, and your posts in particular are usually pretty informed/impartial.
For the record I'm not mad or anything lol

I'm just saying that if any sort of Greninja discussion is being enough to give people war flashbacks of the Greninja hype that happened after Beast then I would be perfectly fine with simply not saying anything.
 

Radical Larry

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
1,994
Location
The Pocket Dimension
NNID
Crimson-Vulcan
3DS FC
1822-3761-9326
I guess some people have different thoughts in the end, but I do very well with Samus and King Dedede now and it's because I put time into them. Then again, everything varies between person to person, thus leading to different results.
 

biribiri

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
27
So judging from ESAM's video today it's looking like he's going to place Corrin as high tier. ZeRo also put him as top 10. But from the graph the other day, it looks like Corrin hasn't been getting notable results while being fairly popular. So what are these top players seeing in this character to rate him so high?
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
The problem is mainly that no progress is ever done when talking about Pikachu and it just keeps going back and forth. Other characters have been (and are) in a similar state.

Normally discussion about a character should go like this:

user 1: ZSS is too good why is she not the best character in the game
user 2: bad grab and no rising aerials so strengths are balanced out
-> from now on user 2's information becomes common knowledge and user 1's question is bashed every time it's made in the future

With Pikachu it goes like this:

user 1: Pikachu is amazing he edgeguards everyone and is hard to hit and has one of the best neutrals and QA
user 2: edgeguarding isn't a reliable killing method, he lacks range and mobility so he doesn't have good follow-ups past low percents, he's generally unsafe and has to trade and lose those trades a lot, and QA is a good move but it has clear counterplay
user 3: Pikachu is amazing he edgeguards everyone and is hard to hit and has one of the best neutrals and QA
...

Pikachu stuff gets bashed because the same fallacies keep getting brought up over and over, and the ones praising him literally never make an objective review of the character, leaving the weaknesses completely out. People are tired of it because it's gone on for so long in this way, and people should be tired about this for a few other characters as well at this point.

For example, when a Greninja wins a local the subject gets 2 pages of posts, and some people are still convinced Pits are underused for other reasons than their capability. And Link. Stop fffffffffffffffffffFFFFFFF****** mentioning Link Larry.
New people come in all the time AND our theories are proven/disproven based on new results. Bashing people for asking questions/making statements won't solve anything. I get that it gets redundant, but sometimes we do need to revisit our beliefs about Pikachu, Greninja, and Link.

It's probably better if the conversation is based around specifics as opposed to win/loss and overrated/underrated. I feel like that's similar to Blobface's point about matchup ratios - better, contextual impressions would definitely be preferable.
 

L9999

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
2,632
Location
the attic I call Magicant
3DS FC
3780-9480-2428
Dark Fists says "Hi".
Yes, but would you want a Dark Dive that can be shielded or a Dark Fist that grabs?

The Pika head icon does pop up every now and again in the top 8/16s that are posted here thanks to the like of Esam and others (the only other that comes to mind is Z? Don't recall if that was a Pika player) so the character isn't hopeless.
Captain L, Hoenn, Gunvolt, and PikaPika of recent tournaments. Didn't found Shimitake, Enki, and PikaForLife in Das Koopa's thread, but they still exist...

So judging from ESAM's video today it's looking like he's going to place Corrin as high tier. ZeRo also put him as top 10. But from the graph the other day, it looks like Corrin hasn't been getting notable results while being fairly popular. So what are these top players seeing in this character to rate him so high?
"Potential" It will be a while when people stop jumping into her attacks and start gimping her like they should.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
I have been seeing a lot of Corrin's recently, so the character does seem to be more popular, idk in terms of placement for them.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
I'm just saying that if any sort of Greninja discussion is being enough to give people war flashbacks of the Greninja hype that happened after Beast then I would be perfectly fine with simply not saying anything.
. . . . . . . are people still holding that against me?

It's been like . . . four months since that happened? Y'all need to move on with life.

What do you guys want me to do? Build a time machine and go back to February to go punch myself in the face before I pressed the "Post Reply" button?

:150:
 

FullMoon

i'm just joking with you
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,095
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
NNID
INFullMoon
. . . . . . . are people still holding that against me?

It's been like . . . four months since that happened? Y'all need to move on with life.

What do you guys want me to do? Build a time machine and go back to February to go punch myself in the face before I pressed the "Post Reply" button?

:150:
I wasn't even thinking about that when I posted

You're the one who's bringing it up lol
 

Jucchan

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
353
God, I love it when my knowledge of Japan and my knowledge of anime line up perfectly. An unknown, unnamed player is devastating everyone with a low tier hero. He even uses the green wireframe Mac! That's perfect! Who is he? Where does he come from? Tune in next time to Super Smash Bros. 4 to find out!

Edit: I'm guessing it's either Ranai's secret brother, who we all thought died in that car crash at the beginning of the series, or literally Tuxedo Mask somehow.
I mean, you could just ask him on twitter... https://twitter.com/krhmrr1216
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
I wasn't even thinking about that when I posted

You're the one who's bringing it up lol
my post wasn't aimed toward you Full Moon, but I've noticed people do still talk about it sometimes.

It also became a dumb meme on the character discords.

:150:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom