Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

I took notice of all the Colorado players when I was looking to see who mained who. At least a couple of the top 16 are on CO's PR, I think.

Texas continues to be stronk

 

[juddy96]

I took notice of all the Colorado players when I was looking to see who mained who. At least a couple of the top 16 are on CO's PR, I think.

Texas continues to be stronk

X was former #1 in Utah I believe, he continues to be a strong presence in Colorado.

 

[Mario766]

We'll see. It's grossly apparent that his confidence in Sheik has dropped significantly so a switch of some kind seems inevitable. Cloud seems more likely just because of the significantly smaller learning curve while Ryu's probably the hardest top/high tier to get good with outside of Pikachu.

He could also keep Cloud as a counterpick, like he was talking about in the interview. I don't see him dropping Diddy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

TGC 8 (128 entrants) https://smash.gg/tournament/tgc-8-1000-pot-bonus-houston-tx/brackets/12866/32853/110048

1) Trela
2) Vinnie
3) DJ Fliphop
4) Captain Zack
5) Mr. E
5) Megafox
7) Jerm
7) 8BitMan
9) Brawlman1000
9) Samsora
9) KJ
9) GrimTurtle
13) Espy
13) Haipe
13) MJG
13) Angbad

Looks like @Trela has finally achieved Kaiser form.

...

****, WRONG RYU LOLOLOL MY BAD!!!!!

 

[Thinkaman]

Let's have a come-to-Jesus sit down about Duck Hunt. I've been wanting to do this for awhile, but recent data has motivated me and I feel like now the bandwagon will be at my back.

Duck Hunt's performance over the last month, in a vacuum, suggests a top 15 or at least top 20 character. I'm not saying that is the long-term reality we have to confront, but it is the short-term reality! Results are results.

Normally I'm the voice of reason against Flavor-of-the-Month hype, but normally FotM relates to one B-tier having a weekend of glory and pulling a big upset at a regional. Duck Hunt's recent emergence has been a much less dramatic campaign, involving several players spanning multiple continents getting respectable results.


Virtually every character who has been popularly regarded as low- or bottom-tier is in some way slightly flawed. It's never been truly crippling, but enough to put a cap on optimization. (No matter how much the metagames advance for the likes of Samus, DDD, or Roy, the reasons they are not considered in the top half of the roster will not change.)

Duck Hunt is the exception. Duck Hunt's closest thing to a flaw (outside of his ultra-punishable recovery) is his inability to kill; a condition the rest of the world just calls "Sheik". Duck Hunt is the only character regarded as low by some because he is legitimately too complicated to play well--a label not even Shulk can truly claim.


Contrast with Bowser Jr, the opposite case. Bowser Jr. is a straightforward character whose tricks wreck anyone not prepared to deal with him. That does not mean he is easy to play, or that his results don't matter, or that his players don't deserve to be acknowledged for success. It just means that when a robust-toolset-character like Diddy plays against a Bowser Jr. 30 times, we expect the Diddy player to improve the matchup more than the Bowser Jr. player over time.

This is true to some extent of most low tiers, being characters with fewer options. Duck Hunt is the exception. If that Diddy player plays a Duck Hunt 30 times, I except the Duck Hunt to hang in there and improve just as much as the Diddy--because Duck Hunt has some weaknesses, but not any fundamental lack of options.

The theory backs this up. An assortment of safe harassment tools, which can lead to kills. Solid aerials across the board. A great grab with sufficient reward. The best dodges in the game.

For the last ~nine months I've said to anyone who would listen that when I look at the "bottom half", Duck Hunt is far and away the character who has the most potential. (Little Mac is the only one who compares, and he comes with a lot of unique baggage.)


I was right about Mewtwo, and I am in the middle of being proven right about Lucas. I've long said Duck Hunt is next, but it seems like a popular time to put my chips on the table.

 

[Shin Bowser Meow]

Looks like @Trela has finally achieved Kaiser form.

...

****, WRONG RYU LOLOLOL MY BAD!!!!!

BoF 3 reference made my day good sir.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I took notice of all the Colorado players when I was looking to see who mained who. At least a couple of the top 16 are on CO's PR, I think.

If I'm not mistaken, 3 of the 4 CO players who made top 16 are on the PR. They're current PR is a little funky, but I'm pretty sure JFK (Yoshi) is 2nd, X (Sanic) is 4th (though he moved there recently, likely to go up based on his recent results), and SSB100 (DK/Olimar) is 8th. Got that info from this bracket (from about a month ago) http://smashco.challonge.com/fgfs51316 (Don't worry, I didn't get that info from the standings, they have the PR placement next to their names)

 

[outfoxd]

Let's have a come-to-Jesus sit down about Duck Hunt. I've been wanting to do this for awhile, but recent data has motivated me and I feel like now the bandwagon will be at my back.

Duck Hunt's performance over the last month, in a vacuum, suggests a top 15 or at least top 20 character. I'm not saying that is the long-term reality we have to confront, but it is the short-term reality! Results are results.

Normally I'm the voice of reason against Flavor-of-the-Month hype, but normally FotM relates to one B-tier having a weekend of glory and pulling a big upset at a regional. Duck Hunt's recent emergence has been a much less dramatic campaign, involving several players spanning multiple continents getting respectable results.


Virtually every character who has been popularly regarded as low- or bottom-tier is in some way slightly flawed. It's never been truly crippling, but enough to put a cap on optimization. (No matter how much the metagames advance for the likes of Samus, DDD, or Roy, the reasons they are not considered in the top half of the roster will not change.)

Duck Hunt is the exception. Duck Hunt's closest thing to a flaw (outside of his ultra-punishable recovery) is his inability to kill; a condition the rest of the world just calls "Sheik". Duck Hunt is the only character regarded as low by some because he is legitimately too complicated to play well--a label not even Shulk can truly claim.


Contrast with Bowser Jr, the opposite case. Bowser Jr. is a straightforward character whose tricks wreck anyone not prepared to deal with him. That does not mean he is easy to play, or that his results don't matter, or that his players don't deserve to be acknowledged for success. It just means that when a robust-toolset-character like Diddy plays against a Bowser Jr. 30 times, we expect the Diddy player to improve the matchup more than the Bowser Jr. player over time.

This is true to some extent of most low tiers, being characters with fewer options. Duck Hunt is the exception. If that Diddy player plays a Duck Hunt 30 times, I except the Duck Hunt to hang in there and improve just as much as the Diddy--because Duck Hunt has some weaknesses, but not any fundamental lack of options.

The theory backs this up. An assortment of safe harassment tools, which can lead to kills. Solid aerials across the board. A great grab with sufficient reward. The best dodges in the game.

For the last ~nine months I've said to anyone who would listen that when I look at the "bottom half", Duck Hunt is far and away the character who has the most potential. (Little Mac is the only one who compares, and he comes with a lot of unique baggage.)


I was right about Mewtwo, and I am in the middle of being proven right about Lucas. I've long said Duck Hunt is next, but it seems like a popular time to put my chips on the table.

My only worry is that this is a burst of positive until people decide to learn this mu.

 

[Nobie]

Let's have a come-to-Jesus sit down about Duck Hunt. I've been wanting to do this for awhile, but recent data has motivated me and I feel like now the bandwagon will be at my back.

Duck Hunt's performance over the last month, in a vacuum, suggests a top 15 or at least top 20 character. I'm not saying that is the long-term reality we have to confront, but it is the short-term reality! Results are results.

Normally I'm the voice of reason against Flavor-of-the-Month hype, but normally FotM relates to one B-tier having a weekend of glory and pulling a big upset at a regional. Duck Hunt's recent emergence has been a much less dramatic campaign, involving several players spanning multiple continents getting respectable results.


Virtually every character who has been popularly regarded as low- or bottom-tier is in some way slightly flawed. It's never been truly crippling, but enough to put a cap on optimization. (No matter how much the metagames advance for the likes of Samus, DDD, or Roy, the reasons they are not considered in the top half of the roster will not change.)

Duck Hunt is the exception. Duck Hunt's closest thing to a flaw (outside of his ultra-punishable recovery) is his inability to kill; a condition the rest of the world just calls "Sheik". Duck Hunt is the only character regarded as low by some because he is legitimately too complicated to play well--a label not even Shulk can truly claim.


Contrast with Bowser Jr, the opposite case. Bowser Jr. is a straightforward character whose tricks wreck anyone not prepared to deal with him. That does not mean he is easy to play, or that his results don't matter, or that his players don't deserve to be acknowledged for success. It just means that when a robust-toolset-character like Diddy plays against a Bowser Jr. 30 times, we expect the Diddy player to improve the matchup more than the Bowser Jr. player over time.

This is true to some extent of most low tiers, being characters with fewer options. Duck Hunt is the exception. If that Diddy player plays a Duck Hunt 30 times, I except the Duck Hunt to hang in there and improve just as much as the Diddy--because Duck Hunt has some weaknesses, but not any fundamental lack of options.

The theory backs this up. An assortment of safe harassment tools, which can lead to kills. Solid aerials across the board. A great grab with sufficient reward. The best dodges in the game.

For the last ~nine months I've said to anyone who would listen that when I look at the "bottom half", Duck Hunt is far and away the character who has the most potential. (Little Mac is the only one who compares, and he comes with a lot of unique baggage.)


I was right about Mewtwo, and I am in the middle of being proven right about Lucas. I've long said Duck Hunt is next, but it seems like a popular time to put my chips on the table.

I was wondering about Duck Hunt myself, so I've been watching match videos. One thing I've noticed is that for a "low tier" Duck Hunt supports a fairly diverse range of play styles. For example, while Brood tends for a relatively more defensive Duck Hunt, You3's Duck Hunt is more aggressive. Brood puts up walls of projectiles and then weaves in and out to do damage and stay safe (the more conventional Duck Hunt style). You3 uses the can almost like Zato-1's Shadow Beast in Guilty Gear, as a kind of tricky approach option and combo setup. You constantly see You3 running in along with the can, well aware that it has the chance to backfire, but confident that he knows how to handle the can better than the opponent.

I think one thing that all of these rising low tier characters might have in common is this diversity of play styles available. Mewtwo is fairly obvious, while Lucas can zone or try and fight up close with small disjoints all over the place. Compare with someone like Ganondorf who more or less has one ideal style.

Speaking of Mewtwo's rise, the weirdest thing about being a Mewtwo supporter of old is seeing how drastically opinion on the character changed immediately after Abadango won Pound 2016. While the character got some support and was on an upswing, people still thought that bad matchups and inconsistency would hold the character back even with the buffs. Now they're saying that Mewtwo has no truly bad matchups!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yall really forget how patches were a thing.

Mewtwo got injected with flippin horse steroids.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Is anyone else thinking that diddy struggles vs short characters? It seems like his best approach options usually whiff against shorties like rising fair, bair, monkey flip kick. ..

I went to the lab and discovered that rising fair and bair, no matter how they are spaced, will always whiff a standing, stationary pika. This could be a huge development in diddy counterplay...

 

[meleebrawler]

Yall really forget how patches were a thing.

Mewtwo got injected with flippin horse steroids.

In Pokemon, we refer to that as "Carbos".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Let's have a come-to-Jesus sit down about Duck Hunt. I've been wanting to do this for awhile, but recent data has motivated me and I feel like now the bandwagon will be at my back.

Duck Hunt's performance over the last month, in a vacuum, suggests a top 15 or at least top 20 character. I'm not saying that is the long-term reality we have to confront, but it is the short-term reality! Results are results.

Normally I'm the voice of reason against Flavor-of-the-Month hype, but normally FotM relates to one B-tier having a weekend of glory and pulling a big upset at a regional. Duck Hunt's recent emergence has been a much less dramatic campaign, involving several players spanning multiple continents getting respectable results.


Virtually every character who has been popularly regarded as low- or bottom-tier is in some way slightly flawed. It's never been truly crippling, but enough to put a cap on optimization. (No matter how much the metagames advance for the likes of Samus, DDD, or Roy, the reasons they are not considered in the top half of the roster will not change.)

Duck Hunt is the exception. Duck Hunt's closest thing to a flaw (outside of his ultra-punishable recovery) is his inability to kill; a condition the rest of the world just calls "Sheik". Duck Hunt is the only character regarded as low by some because he is legitimately too complicated to play well--a label not even Shulk can truly claim.


Contrast with Bowser Jr, the opposite case. Bowser Jr. is a straightforward character whose tricks wreck anyone not prepared to deal with him. That does not mean he is easy to play, or that his results don't matter, or that his players don't deserve to be acknowledged for success. It just means that when a robust-toolset-character like Diddy plays against a Bowser Jr. 30 times, we expect the Diddy player to improve the matchup more than the Bowser Jr. player over time.

This is true to some extent of most low tiers, being characters with fewer options. Duck Hunt is the exception. If that Diddy player plays a Duck Hunt 30 times, I except the Duck Hunt to hang in there and improve just as much as the Diddy--because Duck Hunt has some weaknesses, but not any fundamental lack of options.

The theory backs this up. An assortment of safe harassment tools, which can lead to kills. Solid aerials across the board. A great grab with sufficient reward. The best dodges in the game.

For the last ~nine months I've said to anyone who would listen that when I look at the "bottom half", Duck Hunt is far and away the character who has the most potential. (Little Mac is the only one who compares, and he comes with a lot of unique baggage.)


I was right about Mewtwo, and I am in the middle of being proven right about Lucas. I've long said Duck Hunt is next, but it seems like a popular time to put my chips on the table.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I'm curious though.

After Duck Hunt, who do you think is next?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Or diddy just starts spamming safe dtilts and dash grabs which yield good consistent reward.

This is legit the same argument people used vs Ryu and its like oh yea he has several really good low hitting buttons.

 

[Nobie]

Yall really forget how patches were a thing.

Mewtwo got injected with flippin horse steroids.

Not saying you're wrong, but a lot of the feedback pre-Pound was "Nintendo gave Mewtwo the WRONG horse steroids, these won't REALLY help it."

 

[Y2Kay]

If Nintendo listened to the general community Mewtwo would have more weight and a combo throw.

But Nintendo went a route that made him still true to his archetype and made him a really good character.

I think this route is much better.

Sometimes people don't know what's best for them.

 

[Radical Larry]

Not saying you're wrong, but a lot of the feedback pre-Pound was "Nintendo gave Mewtwo the WRONG horse steroids, these won't REALLY help it."

I kind of predict a 1.1.7 later on when things go around. It's likely going to have to be after the super majors, but if it's before, then it's going to be one hell of a party.

But speaking of Mewtwo, there were people who thought that adding mobility to Mewtwo wouldn't help him due to his immensely light weight. Well, now he's 2 weight units up, his run speed went from 1.696 to 2.05, and he's got a hell of a lot of good hitboxes.

If Nintendo listened to the general community Mewtwo would have more weight and a combo throw.

But Nintendo went a route that made him still true to his archetype and made him a really good character.

I think this route is much better.

Sometimes people don't know what's best for them.

Nintendo and Namco can totally do this with everyone, make them more balanced too. I honestly think they should go ahead and buff more characters for any patch next time, and maybe even give them a better utilization altogether. I'm hoping they can do more patch updates.

(Also, Link's Spin Attack having multiple hits just in case of shields, having a 1.7 run speed, 1.0 air speed like Melee, less endlag on F-Smash 2, frame 5 and 4 Jab and N-Air respectively and a frame 11 F-Air to spite Ike, would all be worth it in my book. And also a Brawl's D-Air in terms of power, nothing more. I can at least have a say on what Link could or should have.)

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I have a feeling the dev team is going to sit back and watch carefully these next few months, look at supermajor matches/results, and then decide if they're really happy with the state of the game.

 

[soniczx123]

If Nintendo listened to the general community Mewtwo would have more weight and a combo throw.

But Nintendo went a route that made him still true to his archetype and made him a really good character.

I think this route is much better.

Sometimes people don't know what's best for them.

You mean about 90% of the time, in both nerfs and buffs?

 

[PK Gaming]

Fox is amazing

I wish I could add more substance to this post, but no, Fox is just

amazing

 

[thehard]

ImHip was pretty gung-ho about using DHD's smashes (I definitely saw more come from him than any of his other mains in recent memory) and I've recently been thinking people just needed to say **** it and spam them for kills more, yeah yeah, wonky hitboxes, unreliable, but so what? He was able to cover his endlag with Can multiple times or simply strike fear into Tyrant to continue holding shield.

And whoever made the point about DHD's kill throw being any throw > Can was right on the money.

 

[TDK]

Does anyone have the video of ImHip vs Tyrant?

 

[Trunks159]

Fox is amazing

I wish I could add more substance to this post, but no, Fox is just

amazing

*Larry is amazing.

 

[Piipp]

Does anyone have the video of ImHip vs Tyrant?

No. The match should be uploaded today or tomorrow on 2GGs channel.

www.youtube.com/2ggaming

 

[Empyrean]

Something i've been noticing for a while now is the sheer amount of damage and conversions that arise from ledgeplay situations, and I feel there's no better time to bring this up than after last night's spectacular display between Larry and Zero. I don't have PGStats backing me up on this, but it looked like a substantial amount of the damage dealt on both sides throughout the set was at the ledge, with entire stocks being played (and sealed) there.

What strikes me as weird about this is that ledge options are arguably at their best in the series, what with ledge getup only having 1 frame of vulnerability and ledge jump having none (in stark contrast with melee where ledge jump had garbage IASA and doing it was asking for a hard punish). Yet compared to Melee and Brawl, the ledge is a much more unforgiving and hostile place. Does no ledge regrab invulnerability (and no ledge drop carryover invul) + the constant threat of ledgetrumping create this dynamic where you gotta quickly choose an option and thus are more likely to mess up and get punished, or am I missing something?

Would it actually be a stretch to call the ledge a more dangerous place than offstage for most characters (with a few exceptions like Mac)? We often say that most Smash 4 players seriously need to refine their edgeguard game, which I won't deny, but shouldn't they first work on that area that comes before offstage, the ledge? Zero and Larry likely happen to be the 2 most terrifying players at the ledge, but I don't see the same threatening aura from most other players. Does good ledge coverage separate the very best players from the rest? Higher-tiered characters from the lower tiers? Is it something exclusive to those blessed with good reaction time, or does it come with experience? Would likening Smash 4's ledge to a traditional fighter's knockdown be an apt comparison?

I've rambled on long enough, but i'd definitely like to see what others have to say about this.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox being top tier is old news. Char has been top 4 during the last three months on Das Koopa 's rankings and with Larry taking Mexico Saga that isn't very likely to change this time around. He could easily be a top 5 character now, I don't see two additional characters outside of the "current" top 3 [Diddy, Sheik, Cloud] that could block his top 5 spot right now though Sonic, Mario and Rosalina are contenders I guess.

But right now I think this is a solid top 5 [not necessarily in order]:


I think the current trend is to overrate Cloud - who honestly should NOT be in consideration for the title of best character and doesn't have quite as impressive matchups as certain people claim at times - and underrate Sonic whose amazing results in Japan aren't given the credit they deserve in the west.
Diddy is a bit overplayed now which often [mis]leads people to draw inaccurate conclusions when it comes to Diddy's matchups. Based on medium-level game play certain matchups are seen worse than they are, Cloud and Rosalina are notable examples - both are seen as disadvantaged for Diddy when they are actually even. Smallish, mobile [anti-]zoners and projectile campers like Fox, Sheik, Pikachu, Olimar, Megaman and Sonic do tend to be difficult matchups for him in general though I still don't think he actually loses any matchup.
Neither does Sheik in my book but based on the fact that she's only played by a smaller elite circle of players her matchups may look more favorable than they are. She probably just has a ton of even matchups now.

 

[Thinkaman]

My only worry is that this is a burst of positive until people decide to learn this mu.

But that's my argument, this doesn't apply to DH in the same way as other low tiers. You can't just "learn the matchup" and say whelp, party's over. Sure, you can improve with experience against any character, but there's "learning the matchup" against someone like Diddy and "learning the matchup" against someone like Zelda. Different implications, different consequences; and Duck Hunt is closer to the former.

After Duck Hunt, who do you think is next?

We are running out of characters to underrate.

I still think Jigglypuff is pretty underrated, but still one of the worst in the game so YMMV.

• Aerial mobility never goes out of style
• Her SHAD is incredible
• Solid 10% throws
• Nair is pretty great, and honestly all her aerials do a job well
• Great recovery and one of the better gimp games
• Rest is a frame-1-invincible legitimate kill move that can be done in the air
  • Nothing will ever make those words not one of the most valuable tools of any character in the game

I'm not arguing that Jigglypuff is actually high or mid tier, or even low. I just think the amount of hate the character has gotten from meme-like community sentiment (not unlike a certain frog) is unreasonable and not overlooking reality.

Jigglypuff is the most undertuned character. Undertuned, not flawed. She basically has no flaws, her numbers just sort of suck and don't make up for her weight + lack of disjoint enough. Honestly, this might not be a popular opinion, but I'm pretty sure that Jigglypuff would be fine if you just started improving random numbers in her kit. She's the only bottom tier who could be improved to high-tier purely by amping up her existing strengths a reasonable amount.

Also, keep in mind, literally very mainstream "jank" that was nerfed were vertical kill sequences that affected Jigglypuff's matchups more than any other character in the game. No one hated hoo-hah more than Jiggs, nor Luigi crap, nor Boost Kick being dialed to 11, nor Piston Punch, ect. The only one she didn't mind as much was Bayo, thanks to Rest making it super risky for both side.

Honestly, the main thing standing in Jigg's way is Cloud.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

So much for nickos cloud. I wonder what secondary is better?

 

[Thinkaman]

Something i've been noticing for a while now is the sheer amount of damage and conversions that arise from ledgeplay situations, and I feel there's no better time to bring this up than after last night's spectacular display between Larry and Zero. I don't have PGStats backing me up on this, but it looked like a substantial amount of the damage dealt on both sides throughout the set was at the ledge, with entire stocks being played (and sealed) there.

What strikes me as weird about this is that ledge options are arguably at their best in the series, what with ledge getup only having 1 frame of vulnerability and ledge jump having none (in stark contrast with melee where ledge jump had garbage IASA and doing it was asking for a hard punish). Yet compared to Melee and Brawl, the ledge is a much more unforgiving and hostile place. Does no ledge regrab invulnerability (and no ledge drop carryover invul) + the constant threat of ledgetrumping create this dynamic where you gotta quickly choose an option and thus are more likely to mess up and get punished, or am I missing something?

Would it actually be a stretch to call the ledge a more dangerous place than offstage for most characters (with a few exceptions like Mac)? We often say that most Smash 4 players seriously need to refine their edgeguard game, which I won't deny, but shouldn't they first work on that area that comes before offstage, the ledge? Zero and Larry likely happen to be the 2 most terrifying players at the ledge, but I don't see the same threatening aura from most other players. Does good ledge coverage separate the very best players from the rest? Higher-tiered characters from the lower tiers? Is it something exclusive to those blessed with good reaction time, or does it come with experience? Would likening Smash 4's ledge to a traditional fighter's knockdown be an apt comparison?

I've rambled on long enough, but i'd definitely like to see what others have to say about this.

I've often said that Smash 4's engine is 98% Brawl's. A full 1% of that difference is ledge behavior, and what a difference it makes.

Smash 4 is the only Smash game where the ledge is not the place I feel safest. The ledge actually feels disadvantaged to hold in the neutral.

This is because the person on the ledge only gets one chance--unlike previous games, I can't plank or fish for a safe ledgedrop poke with no consequence.

Imagine a fighting game where your knockdown state included an option that was a safe poke attack (that left you in knockdown). I think most of us would agree that this would muddy the waters on if it was truly a disadvantage state or not, and this is basically what the ledge was like previously across smash games.

Anyway, hitting opponents in "the 2-frame window" remains one of the least optimized aspects of Smash 4.

 

[C0rvus]

Fox and MK? Sounds like a job for Sheik. But, Cloud can handle both characters as well. Dunno what to tell him, I'm no expert.

Duck Hunt has always been on my radar as an underrated character, but how far could we expect him to rise given his weaknesses, which are very apparent and relevant? Especially his recovery problem. It just seems like he can't afford to mess up, but he does have pretty excellent neutral to mitigate this somewhat.

Also he really is the one true puppet character. The can has more character than Luma. Fite me.

 

[thehard]

Cloud is proving to be pretty underwhelming as a pocket character.

I've predicted Shulk as the next breakout character (already has much better results than you'd think, with Nicko leading the charge) followed by Charizard.

The shieldstun patch was quite a boon to Shulk and his damage increases, backed by range allow him to space quite well on shield. He has a lot of room for growth, but realistically probably suffers vs our top tiers.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Fox and MK? Sounds like a job for Sheik. But, Cloud can handle both characters as well. Dunno what to tell him, I'm no expert.

Duck Hunt has always been on my radar as an underrated character, but how far could we expect him to rise given his weaknesses, which are very apparent and relevant? Especially his recovery problem. It just seems like he can't afford to mess up, but he does have pretty excellent neutral to mitigate this somewhat.

Also he really is the one true puppet character. The can has more character than Luma. Fite me.

He doesnt like cloud offstage much, and hes looking for characters to deal with fox sonic and shiek. 17th place at 2gg going mostly shulk isnt bad at all, but secondaries are needed to cover shulk. Its interesting that nicko knows the diddy MU really well. Fox seems to give him more trouble, which might be the reason he wanted to go cloud. Maybe cloud doesnt stick with him it seems.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Olimar and Kirby are characters that still have the potential to surprise us. They are the first characters that I think of when I hear the term 'underrated'. Some characters have their day and others keep bringing in results but those two have next to no credit next to their name - not because they are bad or don't deserve it but because they are virtually unplayed. Even Shuton's 2nd/200 place at Umebura 22 seems to have just gonr by almost entirely unnoticed, which is honestly pretty insane. It's almost like these two characters don't exist at all.

 

[Blobface]

Something i've been noticing for a while now is the sheer amount of damage and conversions that arise from ledgeplay situations, and I feel there's no better time to bring this up than after last night's spectacular display between Larry and Zero. I don't have PGStats backing me up on this, but it looked like a substantial amount of the damage dealt on both sides throughout the set was at the ledge, with entire stocks being played (and sealed) there.

What strikes me as weird about this is that ledge options are arguably at their best in the series, what with ledge getup only having 1 frame of vulnerability and ledge jump having none (in stark contrast with melee where ledge jump had garbage IASA and doing it was asking for a hard punish). Yet compared to Melee and Brawl, the ledge is a much more unforgiving and hostile place. Does no ledge regrab invulnerability (and no ledge drop carryover invul) + the constant threat of ledgetrumping create this dynamic where you gotta quickly choose an option and thus are more likely to mess up and get punished, or am I missing something?

Would it actually be a stretch to call the ledge a more dangerous place than offstage for most characters (with a few exceptions like Mac)? We often say that most Smash 4 players seriously need to refine their edgeguard game, which I won't deny, but shouldn't they first work on that area that comes before offstage, the ledge? Zero and Larry likely happen to be the 2 most terrifying players at the ledge, but I don't see the same threatening aura from most other players. Does good ledge coverage separate the very best players from the rest? Higher-tiered characters from the lower tiers? Is it something exclusive to those blessed with good reaction time, or does it come with experience? Would likening Smash 4's ledge to a traditional fighter's knockdown be an apt comparison?

I've rambled on long enough, but i'd definitely like to see what others have to say about this.

Great post, but I do think it's worth noting that both Fox and Diddy have pretty subpar edgeguarding while having extremely good ledgeplay. Neither of them have aerials that are fast (FAF wise) or have big hitboxes, while at the same time, both have extremely fast low-reaching attacks that open up tons of reward if they hit the opponent on the ledge (Diddy's D-tilt and Fox's U-tilt), so this set may not be the best example of how ledgeplay/offstage will go in every matchup.

Notable video for this subject:

Spoiler

Ganon's is so stupid lol

 

[TDK]

While we're throwing in predictions, I'll say that will never make it out of pools at a national, non-customs tournament.

I truly believe is a bottom 5 character. Why?

Let's start by examining his moveset:
- like other heavies, his frame data is slow and so is he. He's also a big target with no combo-breaking moves of any kind (Rock Smash and Fly are too slow), so if you get one combo starter on him, it's pretty much a free 30-40%.
- Charizard, unlike DK or even Bowser, has no easy "Ding-Dong" combo to kill you at 90 and instead requires a read to take an early stock or just surviving long enough to get an up throw, which is overrated as a kill throw unless you hit the top platform of a stage like battlefield.
- Charizard's recovery is fairly exploitable. Flare Blitz has a ton of lag and can cause a self-destruct if you don't time it right, either through missing the stage entirely or just bouncing off a wall. Speaking of which, bouncing off a wall leaves you wide open for a punish, and Flare Blitz inflicts self damage. Its air speed is slow, so its multiple jumps don't count for too much, and Fly grants fairly low distance.
- Lastly, is charizard's lack of any sort of notable results. Yes, I know at one point Trela won a tournament with him (he's also won with week 1 Bidou Shulk, 1111 default Mii Swordfighter, and week 1 Mewtwo), and I know a charizard beat ANTi once, but none of those players have been able to consistently do anything with Charizard. In fact, the last time Charizard made it to top 64 at a national level tournament was EVO 2015, a customs-on tournament, as a secondary, and even the best Charizard mains regularly fail to make it out of pools. Additionally, other bottom 5 contenders have been able to produce results, namely and all managing to at least make top 32 once. Charizard... hasn't done anything on that level without customs.

For these reasons, I believe that Charizard belongs in the bottom 5. As a character, Charizard suffers from heavyweight syndrome - really strong, but not fast enough and has no way to break out of combos. Bowser and DK do a lot of what charizard does (Heavyweight powerhouse with combo and kill options out of grab) much, much better.

 

[Thinkaman]

- Charizard, unlike DK or even Bowser, has no easy "Ding-Dong" combo to kill you at 90

Just going to point out that Charizard has the 9th best run speed in the game and a terrific grab.

If Charizard had Bowser or DK's grab reward, everyone would despise him and he'd be at least top 10.

 

[arbustopachon]

Also going to point out zard sharing the same walk speed as mewtwo (top 15), having the fourth shortest skid animation and the best dash to shield out of all the heavies (Its average at 11 frames). Zard with a ding dong would be a really dumb way to buff the character.
Also even if his air mobility is mediocre, he is tied with Dk for best air accel out of all the heavies.

 

[meleebrawler]

While we're throwing in predictions, I'll say that will never make it out of pools at a national, non-customs tournament.

I truly believe is a bottom 5 character. Why?

Let's start by examining his moveset:
- like other heavies, his frame data is slow and so is he. He's also a big target with no combo-breaking moves of any kind (Rock Smash and Fly are too slow), so if you get one combo starter on him, it's pretty much a free 30-40%.
- Charizard, unlike DK or even Bowser, has no easy "Ding-Dong" combo to kill you at 90 and instead requires a read to take an early stock or just surviving long enough to get an up throw, which is overrated as a kill throw unless you hit the top platform of a stage like battlefield.
- Charizard's recovery is fairly exploitable. Flare Blitz has a ton of lag and can cause a self-destruct if you don't time it right, either through missing the stage entirely or just bouncing off a wall. Speaking of which, bouncing off a wall leaves you wide open for a punish, and Flare Blitz inflicts self damage. Its air speed is slow, so its multiple jumps don't count for too much, and Fly grants fairly low distance.
- Lastly, is charizard's lack of any sort of notable results. Yes, I know at one point Trela won a tournament with him (he's also won with week 1 Bidou Shulk, 1111 default Mii Swordfighter, and week 1 Mewtwo), and I know a charizard beat ANTi once, but none of those players have been able to consistently do anything with Charizard. In fact, the last time Charizard made it to top 64 at a national level tournament was EVO 2015, a customs-on tournament, as a secondary, and even the best Charizard mains regularly fail to make it out of pools. Additionally, other bottom 5 contenders have been able to produce results, namely and all managing to at least make top 32 once. Charizard... hasn't done anything on that level without customs.

For these reasons, I believe that Charizard belongs in the bottom 5. As a character, Charizard suffers from heavyweight syndrome - really strong, but not fast enough and has no way to break out of combos. Bowser and DK do a lot of what charizard does (Heavyweight powerhouse with combo and kill options out of grab) much, much better.

At this point, all I can do when someone suggests a tier position is shrug and go "ok, so who is everyone around him/her?". Things just haven't settled enough to truly determine with surprises around every corner, so all calling a tier position does is get certain people mad about dumb, semantic reasons.

 

[Trifroze]

Smash Science is amazing, he does the sort of comparison videos I've wanted to do since 2014 but I am just too damn lazy.

uhh on topic uhh

Larry also used Mario and DK

Duck Hunt's recovery, kill (un)power and his lacking normals really can't be shrugged off unless the bar on what qualifies as a flaw is lowered when speaking of characters who aren't considered top or high tier

Sheik sucks

Fox's recovery sucks

Mario really isn't a contender for top 5 or anything particularly close to that

 

[outfoxd]

I'll second the sentiment of DH as a true puppet character, considering the can and gunmen are entirely independent of each other. You really are playing doubles with yourself instead of controlling a slightly independent piece of your character like Rosa.

Scared of you own endlag? Better have your partner cover you. Need a kill? Your partner can blast the opponent to you or you can throw him skyward to Zapper kid and the can. Cover ledge? Zapper kid takes neutral get up while you wait for jump or roll.

I'm sad he's undertuned because dh is otherwise a riot to play as.