Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

No, I wasn't suggesting that Charizard get a ding dong. I was pointing out that Charizard's easy kill off of grab is much worse than the ding-dong.

 

[Jams.]

Something i've been noticing for a while now is the sheer amount of damage and conversions that arise from ledgeplay situations, and I feel there's no better time to bring this up than after last night's spectacular display between Larry and Zero. I don't have PGStats backing me up on this, but it looked like a substantial amount of the damage dealt on both sides throughout the set was at the ledge, with entire stocks being played (and sealed) there.

What strikes me as weird about this is that ledge options are arguably at their best in the series, what with ledge getup only having 1 frame of vulnerability and ledge jump having none (in stark contrast with melee where ledge jump had garbage IASA and doing it was asking for a hard punish). Yet compared to Melee and Brawl, the ledge is a much more unforgiving and hostile place. Does no ledge regrab invulnerability (and no ledge drop carryover invul) + the constant threat of ledgetrumping create this dynamic where you gotta quickly choose an option and thus are more likely to mess up and get punished, or am I missing something?

Would it actually be a stretch to call the ledge a more dangerous place than offstage for most characters (with a few exceptions like Mac)? We often say that most Smash 4 players seriously need to refine their edgeguard game, which I won't deny, but shouldn't they first work on that area that comes before offstage, the ledge? Zero and Larry likely happen to be the 2 most terrifying players at the ledge, but I don't see the same threatening aura from most other players. Does good ledge coverage separate the very best players from the rest? Higher-tiered characters from the lower tiers? Is it something exclusive to those blessed with good reaction time, or does it come with experience? Would likening Smash 4's ledge to a traditional fighter's knockdown be an apt comparison?

I've rambled on long enough, but i'd definitely like to see what others have to say about this.

I think retaining ledge invincibility on ledge drop was the biggest difference between those games and Smash 4. In Melee, Fox could perform a perfect ledge dash then start an usmash when fully invincible. How do you beat out an option like this? You don't, you just have to respect that he can do it and then try to bait it out and punish; however, because you're respecting this option, you give Fox more room to use his other options that are far less scary. Fox is the biggest offender, but most characters can throw out hitboxes that are invincible on start-up like Sheik's ledgedash -> grab or Falcon's ledge hop -> knee.

Brawl was similar with planking. You could drop down and throw out an invincible aerial that says "don't stand too close to the ledge or you're gonna get hit!" I'd like to mention though that being on the ledge actually did suck even though many characters could stay there nearly forever barring LGL (especially post 100% when the default ledge options are all ridiculously slow), and Brawl ledge trapping was a huge part of the game.

Mr. R also recently made a Tweet where he listed the best players at each aspect of the game. Ledge trapping was its own category, which I think speaks volumes about how important it is in this game.

Picked up =/= Switches.


If anything he'll switch to Ryu since he's 'in a league of his own'

I might be having a super 'whoosh' moment here, but whatever.

ZeRo traditionally doesn't play which character he thinks is best for a potentially optimized game.

He played MK in Brawl when he thought ICs were the best character. He played Diddy in early Smash 4 when he thought Sheik was the best character. He didn't play Bayonetta (or at all since he was injured) when he thought she was the best character. He doesn't play Ryu now when he thinks Ryu is the best, and I highly doubt he'll switch.

The one exception to the trend was when he played pre-nerf Sheik, who he did think was the best.

Now I pray he doesn't come into this thread and school me. =V

Just going to point out that Charizard has the 9th best run speed in the game and a terrific grab.

If Charizard had Bowser or DK's grab reward, everyone would despise him and he'd be at least top 10.

On the other hand, Charizard's dash grab is bad and his standing grab is handicapped as an OoS option by Charizard's terrible friction. His pivot grab is excellent, but I don't think he has magnet hands to the same extent that Bowser and DK do.

I also think 'at least top 10' is a gross overstatement. I think he'd be better than Bowser and DK, but those characters are struggling to break top 20. What makes Charizard that much better?

 

[Mario766]

I dunno if that's how it should be said.

or if he has really weird perceptions of the best character, because pre-patch Diddy was easily better than Sheik, since Sheik already received nerfs at the time.

also lol Brawl MK not being best character...I won't even explain why that parts faulty.

 

[Das Koopa]

Just going to point out that Charizard has the 9th best run speed in the game and a terrific grab.

Doesn't mean much when he doesn't get real reward off of it. Regardless of how broken/not broken he'd be if he had his own Ding Dong, the point is that he's bad now because he doesn't have the confirms or threatening grab game other similar characters do while carrying all of their disadvantages. Bowser and DK are already pretty niche as-is, take away the thing that makes them good (e.g. good grab game) and you're left with combo food that needs to get a lucky slap/aerial in to KO.

A good indicator of an underrated character is consistency, where Zard has a couple of "oh hey they happened" accomplishments that people forget about because the next tourney another "noteworthy" Zard player drowns in pools.

I dunno if he's necessarily bottom 5 or whatever but he's plainly not good and if he's underrated nobody has adequately stepped up to the plate in a consistent manner to show how much of a secret boss he is.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Here's an excellent guide on a 50/50 kill option that's been developed for Shulk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqYkLTx-eRU

His community seems determined to actually realize the potential that he was hyped up for in the early days.

 

[juddy96]

TGL Monthly 6 results (85 entrants) with a ton of upsets http://challonge.com/tgl6smash4singles

1) Dabuz
2) Xaltis
3) NickRiddle
4) True Blue
5) Seibrik
5) WormyNugget (Josh)
7) MuteAce
7) Rollo
9) Prince Ramen
9) Purple Guy
9) Dath
9) Riot
13) D2da
13) Kazu
13) Saj
13) DiZ

Correction, there was a mistake in the bracket, Riot defeated Rollo and then lost to Josh. So Rollo got 9th and Riot 7th. Source: Riot

 

[Nobie]

Re: Charizard

Sometimes a throw in and of itself is a pretty decent reward~

Also, just having a decently quick, powerful, and ranged jab is something the other heavies can only dream of.

And have you seen what back air is like these days?

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm not sold on Duck Hunt yet. Like a lot of the cast, he's one of those characters that has definitely benefited from a lowered ceiling thanks to patches but nothing's really changed about him. He got some fart in a whirlwind buffs that you can count on one hand and that's pretty much it. From matches I've seen, nothing game changing has been discovered about him and a lot of the common strategies used have been staples since Day One. Like Dedede, he's one of those characters that hasn't evolved too much but the world around them has changed a whole lot. I remember the days when Duck Hunt was argued by some people to be top five and then quickly tanked when people figured him out. Honestly, I think things have come full circle and will likely repeat.

This game has 55 tournament legal characters across the board and how many of them have been consistently popular throughout the game's lifespan, especially at the high level? I can't even name 10: from what I've seen. Everybody else is all over the place with being unpopular at the high level practically the whole time this game has been out. With such a huge cast, this game has an equally big rotating door so you have characters coming and going fairly often. That said, I'm not fully convinced on Duck Hunt's staying power. I'm more convinced that, because of how uncommon he is, a lot of people have forgotten the match up and are now having to relearn how to fight him. Honestly, how often do people fight a good Duck Hunt on a regular basis? A whole less often than they come across a good , I'll tell you that much. If Duck Hunt had got buff overhauls like, say , I'd be more inclined to believe that Duck Hunt had got genuinely better but, as of right now, I think he's just riding a wave.

 

[paperchao]

Also, charizard has both d-throw and back throw for combos, so that can help for mixups

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard doesn't have a ding dong.

Because he just kills with throws instead.

 

[TDK]

Charizard doesn't have a ding dong.

Because he just kills with throws instead.

Unless you can hit the top platform of Battlefield/Dream Land/Town and City the Up throw isn't as good as Ding-Dong or even Mewtwo's up throw.

 

[Solfiner]

Actually Shulk's 50-50 was found a pretty long time ago but is only getting noticed now for some reason.

He has some pretty crazy stuff like an up-throw up-air 50-50 if you buffer deactivate Jump.

This was a post from March, just saying.

With that out of the way though, glad it's getting more attention because it really is a solid option. Uair in general is super underrated imo.

 

[Greward]

Re: Charizard

Sometimes a throw in and of itself is a pretty decent reward~

Also, just having a decently quick, powerful, and ranged jab is something the other heavies can only dream of.

And have you seen what back air is like these days?

tbh bowser/dk/zard all have good jabs, with bowser's being the best

charizard has kill throws, but so does bowser and DK. It's just that they rarely need them since they have throw combo kills.

Charizard at this point is just outclassed by the other fatties, and isn't too good himself. There's little reason to play him and he wasn't too popular to begin with.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Unless you can hit the top platform of Battlefield/Dream Land/Town and City the Up throw isn't as good as Ding-Dong or even Mewtwo's up throw.

F throw and B throw are better kill throws than you think.

tbh bowser/dk/zard all have good jabs, with bowser's being the best

Isn't Charizard's the fastest though?

 

[C0rvus]

Re: Charizard

Sometimes a throw in and of itself is a pretty decent reward~

Also, just having a decently quick, powerful, and ranged jab is something the other heavies can only dream of.

And have you seen what back air is like these days?

Bowser and DK would like to have a word with you. They all at least have jab > grab mixups and good range. Actually, even Dedede can jab > grab, come to think of it.

Poor Ganon.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

tbh bowser/dk/zard all have good jabs, with bowser's being the best

What's good about DK's jab?

 

[SaltyKracka]

What's good about DK's jab?

It's not Ganondorf's Jab.

 

[Radical Larry]

It's not Ganondorf's Jab.

I think Samus would have been the better character of choice.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Zard's jab kills the earliest out of all heavies.

But it does have somewhat a consistency problem between jabs 2 and 3 at higher percents against some characters

Zards jab 1 and jab 2 are great for mxing up (jab 2 better because of angle)

Jab 2 can lead to up b or a wait/punish depending on what opponent does. (Jump away/attack -> superarmour up b; airdodge -> wait and punish)

The range on jab 1 isn't like compared to DK/Bowser but it is the fastest, its finisher kills better, and it probably leads to more powerful mixups.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Speaking of heavies, what do we think of right now? His placings have been pretty good as of recent, which baffles me because I think he gets absolutely bopped byand . Maybe @Yikarur can give us some insight on his meta?

 

[adom4]

It's not Ganondorf's Jab.

Ganon's jab isn't even bad anymore after the buffs.

 

[Jalil]

Here's an excellent guide on a 50/50 kill option that's been developed for Shulk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqYkLTx-eRU

His community seems determined to actually realize the potential that he was hyped up for in the early days.

This has been known for a while but good to see a video being made about it so it can reach a wider audience.

He also has buster deactivated backthow--> backslash (buster backthow forces a tech situation at certain percents) which can kill as low as like 50 before the throw. With the right positioning it's possible to cover multiple options with back slash.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganon's jab isn't even bad anymore after the buffs.

If people don't watch out, they could get KO'd by a simple jab from him. (Tis a bad joke)
But really, the jab is somewhat reliable after a late dash attack as it leads into a late dash attack. And it's also a semi-viable shield poke.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ganon's jab isn't even bad anymore after the buffs.

If you mean that it's not absolute **** like it was before, sure. It's still the worst jab in the game.

 

[adom4]

If you mean that it's not absolute **** like it was before, sure. It's still the worst jab in the game.

I disagree, it's not a top tier jab by any means but it's still a decent jab.
Huge range for a jab, good damage, safe on shield when spaced & the startup frame taken of it helps a lot, just the fact that Ganon has a ground move he can throw out safely is huge for him & you could definitely not say that about pre 1.1.5 jab.

If people don't watch out, they could get KO'd by a simple jab from him. (Tis a bad joke)
But really, the jab is somewhat reliable after a late dash attack as it leads into a late dash attack. And it's also a semi-viable shield poke.

Jab KOs aren't realistic unfortunately, but it will add up to a decent amount of damage per stock now.

 

[Mario766]

What's good about DK's jab?

Tipper jab sets up a grab.

 

[Radical Larry]

I think Ganondorf's jab is a middle tier jab. It does have viability in terms of mix-ups, like a jab into a dash attack around 20% to 35% damage, or a late dash attack > jab > late dash attack > U-Air/N-Air, which is a rather risky mix-up that I've seen work at 20% only, but it's rewarding with a lot of damage overall. It's not necessary, but it's not a bad mix-up that I use. If anything, just take a late dash attack to anything else but jab if you want to play it safe.

But Ganondorf's Jab is a safe shield poke, but adom4 It only had 1 frame shaved off of start-up, it's the fact that his FAF overall had been shortened that made it better than it is now. It's a very safe ground move like you say, and it can also be a safe ground move to send the opponent off the edge of the stage.

 

[AxelVDP]

I think Samus would have been the better character of choice.

...but samus' jab is actually good??
it's just that it does not have the usual functions of a jab at low %s
but it's still f3 with faf of 18f (iirc), and sets up traps like no other at mid %s and higher

I actually consider her jab in the top half of the cast

a baddish jab would be that of Metaknight, Lucario or something

 

[williamsga555]

D3's jab is overall pretty awful. Jab 1 is trash, Jab 2 is amazing, Rapid Jab is trash.

Too awkward/unreliable to be worth much. Jab setups aren't exactly reliable, either, as Jab 1 is unsafe on hit against most of the cast and characters with a fast aerial can hit Dedede after Jab 2 if he doesn't rapid jab.

If I could change his Jab to just be Jab 2 it would be amazing for him. That move is legit, but it's locked away by the commitment of Jab 1.

 

[TDK]

Bowser and DK would like to have a word with you. They all at least have jab > grab mixups and good range. Actually, even Dedede can jab > grab, come to think of it.

Poor Ganon.

Dedede can Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> Jab 1 -> Repeat sequence for a while, actually.

 

[money1246]

Oh, yeah just want to say of you are trying to solo run a character to win a national.....yeah don't do that.

You should have a secondary.

And it should either be Sheik, Cloud or Mewtwo imo.

Emblem Lord does this mean you think Ryu mains like Trela should have a secondary if they want to win large tournaments?

 

[R3D3MON]

What's good about DK's jab?

DK's jab is actually rather underrated and has potential to impact DK's meta heavily in the future. For one thing he can do tipper jab 1 > grab and tipper jab 1 > into d-tilt and then keep using d-tilt or if opponent trips go in for a dash attack or dash grab. Also DK has a kill confirm from a tipper jab: tipper jab > buffered turnaround sweetspot u-tilt kills at %s where Ding Dong no longer works (example video from DKwill's channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M9HHQvqVTY). There is probably more that I'm missing that you can check out at the DK character boards (they have a combo compendium IIRC).

TL;DR DK's jab cancels are awesome, especially with a tipper.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Emblem Lord does this mean you think Ryu mains like Trela should have a secondary if they want to win large tournaments?

Everyone needs one honestly.

The game is constructed in such a way, that every character has bad or awkward matchups.

Beautiful actually.

 

[Nobie]

tbh bowser/dk/zard all have good jabs, with bowser's being the best

charizard has kill throws, but so does bowser and DK. It's just that they rarely need them since they have throw combo kills.

Charizard at this point is just outclassed by the other fatties, and isn't too good himself. There's little reason to play him and he wasn't too popular to begin with.

I didn't mean to downplay Bowser and DK's jabs, both of which are good. What I meant was that Charizard's the only superheavy whose jab functions closer to the standard jab, a la Mario/Falcon/etc., because it's active on Frame 4, and not 7 or 10 (Dedede) or whatever.

Also, more generally, having a jab combo into other things is cool and all, but it's weird to me that people seem to value a jab based entirely on its ability to combo and not to, like, act as a jab in the conventional sense.

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-techniques/punch-techniques/how-to-throw-a-jab

Compared to ALL OTHER PUNCHES, the jab is faster, longer, most likely to land, and least likely to leave you vulnerable. The jab uses less energy than any other punch and still keeps you in position to follow up with a dangerous power punch (ie: the right cross). You can use the jab to punch, to push, or even to distract. It’s accurate and effective from many angles even if you have limited skill. Do you know of any other punch that is still equally effective when thrown while moving?!

The jab isn’t just an offensive weapon, it’s also your best defense! Instead of blocking or slipping or rolling, you can counter just about any punch with the jab! The jab can do everything: your offense, your defense, your entire boxing ability can measured by the skill of your jab.

Although there are many different types of jabs and many different ways to throw them, this guide will focus only on the BASIC JAB TECHNIQUE!

I know, Smash isn't boxing or whatever, but still.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord does this mean you think Ryu mains like Trela should have a secondary if they want to win large tournaments?

If you are die hard about winning you should have a secondary.

This goes for anyone. I would even go as far to say that if you don't have a secondary in ANY competitive fighter, then you are not serious about completely dominating your opposition.

Assuming you aren't playing a character that has no bad matches. But this game has no such character.

 

[C0rvus]

Dunno if it's been said yet, but DK also has tipper jab > pivot up tilt as a kill setup. It works but of course it's a bit situational.

Zard likely has the best set of jabs out of the heavies, but my point was that it's not by much. The two good heavies also have very good jabs. Charizard's jabs are really, really good though. Some of the best in the game alongside characters like Marth, Luma, Fox, and Yoshi.

 

[paperchao]

Charizards jab being frame 4 is pretty cool tbh, and the mixup potential is also really good for how fast it is, it compliments his DTilt and flamethrower spacing as a last line of defense to keep someone out ( oos shield stuff also works but is committal). I feel like everyone is downplaying up throw though, as he has the strongest platform kill throw in a meta that is ripe with low ceiling high platform stages, and the throw isn't hindered by rage unlike your standard d-throw whatever kill combo, it gets helped by it. His ledge guarding also pretty good and I'm surprised that no one has mentioned it, he can get easy damage with flamethrower and dsmash, which catch the two frame pretty well. His flaws are still huge, but you can't just brush off Zards strength's as his tools are solid for a bottom 5 character, his disadvantage is what kills him tho. Maybe b-reverse flamethrower could help as a mixup?

 

[arbustopachon]

People here talking about zards jab and throws, and no one has mentioned his U-smash.

Like, U-smash is so dumbly good. frame 7, disjointed, deals 16%, kills at ok percents, can be comboed into at low to mid percents, has low endlag and jab locks untill like 300%. Its imo Zard's best move. If a proper jablock setup can be found then zard will be actually scary.

On u-throw. It's ok, kills later than M2's and lucas' u-throws with proper di but at least it is decent on platforms. Also it is a kill setup into flare blitz at around 30% at the edge against fastfallers who do not Di down and towards zard. People should really use it more as combo throw at low percents tbh.

Zard gets destroyed by Mu experience. He relies a lot on weak mixups and his disadvantage is garbage.

Sure armor, nair and wavebounce flamethrower help. And in a pinch we can just flare blitz to the ledge, but once in the ledge zard gets owned.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You don't necessarily need a secondary; it's just something really really good to have.

If you have a good grasp on majority of your MUs and you play really solid i.e. Solid grasp on footsies, situation awareness, and all that good stuff, then you'll most likely be fine without one.

It's just that it's really freakin hard to know all your MUs solidly when a lot of them are rare and few and far between and the 2 proper ways to learn this in smash is by playing them over and over again or playing them online, which is finicky depending on your connection training mode is a bare bones mess, so that's out of the equation too (watching a replay of yourself is good too, but there could still be stuff held back from you).Solo maining and having a secondary have their strengths and weaknesses and the pros and cons of both should be recognized.

 

[PK Gaming]

Here's an excellent guide on a 50/50 kill option that's been developed for Shulk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqYkLTx-eRU

His community seems determined to actually realize the potential that he was hyped up for in the early days.

Gotta hand it to Shulk mains; they refuse to back down and let their character fade away.