Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fatmanonice]

Dedede can Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> Jab 1 -> Repeat sequence for a while, actually.

Only if your opponent doesn't DI, has no second jump, and has no fast aerials/break out attacks like Dolphin Slash. Unfortunately, a lot of Dedede's strategies are like this in that they only really work if your opponent has no clue how to deal with them. The character is only functional if you significantly outplay your opponent or they don't know anything about Dedede.

 

[Ninety]

Everyone needs one honestly.

The game is constructed in such a way, that every character has bad or awkward matchups.

Beautiful actually.

If you ask me, this is the greatest effect of the patches. I'd like for there to be more buffs to lower tiers so that even top tiers have the odd losing matchup against a mid/low, but even if that didn't come to pass I'd still be satisfied with the current balance. The thing is, in a game with 58 characters, having secondaries or even dual mains to cover all matchups should probably be the norm.

 

[Krysco]

And have you seen what back air is like these days?

Assuming people don't try out every character affected by a patch whenever they drop and rely on tournament play to see qualities of characters they don't use, I can imagine a lot of people can answer that with 'no'.

Like, I find it funny how the likes of fellow low tiers like all at least have a notable player that a lot of people know and some of them even make popups in these top 8 and top 16s that are posted here (looking namely at you with your alleged only 4 positives mus) and yet almost never makes it and I've seen more than one person mention that in ZeRo's video where he listed the best player of each character, people didn't even know who the player was that was listed for Charizard.

Whenever the dragon is brought up, people always mention what few strengths he has: his jab, his throw game, his speed, his aerials etc. And I'm just sitting here thinking 'okay, if the character has all of these strengths then where are all of his players?' The way I look at it is that if you're looking to get far in a tournament, Charizard is a bad choice and if you're looking to rep a low tier, there are so many more appealing choices, especially if you want to use a heavy character.

The character deemed the worst in the game has strengths too like Rest, high aerial mobility, a highly shield damaging move, being light enough to escape combos easily. Any character can look good if you list just their strengths.

I'll end this long *** post by saying that I don't think Zard is absolutely terrible. Is he bottom 5 or 10 or whatever arbitrary number is ideal for viewing the worst? Maybe. But then Mewtwo was often deemed a poor character until one won Pound. I'm sure myself and many others will start believing all of these great strengths that matter with Zard once they actually start showing up at high places in tournaments. I know at the very least from personal experience that the character is a pain in doubles since it can punish you very easily with death from across the stage just for you attempting to attack its teammate.

And speaking of low tiers, one character I rarely see talked about and rarely see making it in any top 16s or top 8s is . The character generated a lot of hype when...I wanna say Nairo(?) used him against Esam and won and then he fell back into the obscurity that is the depths of the shadowy low tier.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Is solid. Good fundamental moveset, just really unforgiving in the recovery department. I say he's like demitri from vsav; ain't the best, but he has a answer for everything.

 

[L9999]

I honestly forgot existed. Has 2manycooks or any other done something notable since the Nairo fiasco? Even obscure characters like have done more recently.

 

[Radical Larry]

Is solid. Good fundamental moveset, just really unforgiving in the recovery department. I say he's like demitri from vsav; ain't the best, but he has a answer for everything.

In the recovery department, any character who can send Doc mostly horizontally with a powerful move (like Link's D-Smash 2 or Ganondorf's F-Tilt) will eat Doc around 40% to 60%; he doesn't have an answer for that, now, does he? In terms of getting gimped, Doc can't get gimped at all or he's guaranteed to be done for...unless the angle of the hit is like 60 degrees to 80 degrees, then he has the chance to survive. Now it applies to nearly everyone, but with Doc, like Mac, he can't take getting a single hit.

Doc doesn't have the benefit that characters like ZSS, Ryu, Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Fox or Falco have. His Down B, unlike their Side B or Down B attacks...well, it doesn't come back.

And now he as a character is held back by his own jumping height (alongside aerial and ground mobility). That is a terrible jumping height, if you think about it. He could do so much more if he could jump even higher than he can right now. In terms of combo departments, he's solid. If you are a character who can chain your own U-Smash into another U-Smash and 50/50 into another U-Smash, all after a Down Throw, that's actually not that bad.

That's all I can say.

 

[Greward]

What's good about DK's jab?

it combos into grab and uptilt, has decent range and it's not too slow

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I actually have two questions. You always hear from players and commentators about characters who perform worse when they are behind (i.e in Zero's recent interview he said Diddy really suffers when he is behind), so I'd really like to know how you guys would rate the top tiers in comeback potential. Who can make up stocks better, and who makes up percent better? Just really curious, that's all/

Also, after the Imhip vs Zinoto match yesterday, I'd like to know how different the Olimar vs Diddy MU is from Brawl overall. I'm mostly asking this because I remember a while ago how @Praxis was talking about how not different it was. I didn't follow Brawl at all, and I'm just asking this on a whim there.

 

[|RK|]

If you are die hard about winning you should have a secondary.

This goes for anyone. I would even go as far to say that if you don't have a secondary in ANY competitive fighter, then you are not serious about completely dominating your opposition.

Assuming you aren't playing a character that has no bad matches. But this game has no such character.

While you're here - who does Cloud lose to? I never hear much about his poor matchups.

 

[ARISTOS]

I actually have two questions. You always hear from players and commentators about characters who perform worse when they are behind (i.e in Zero's recent interview he said Diddy really suffers when he is behind), so I'd really like to know how you guys would rate the top tiers in comeback potential. Who can make up stocks better, and who makes up percent better? Just really curious, that's all

Would argue are very good at mounting comebacks

 

[TriTails]

And now he as a character is held back by his own jumping height (alongside aerial and ground mobility). That is a terrible jumping height, if you think about it. He could do so much more if he could jump even higher than he can right now. In terms of combo departments, he's solid. If you are a character who can chain your own U-Smash into another U-Smash and 50/50 into another U-Smash, all after a Down Throw, that's actually not that bad.

I'm not sure if you're referring to SH or FH, but Doc's shorthop is damn good for a character having a B-air that has similiar frame data to Mario's that deal like 3% more.

You shouldn't be getting hit by a 13.44% move as much as you should with the likes of Luigi's F-air or moves in the same caliber (Fast, but weak). Doc's B-air not only is fast and lags a lot less than Luigi's, but it also deals a good chunk of damage and ACs as soon as you can fast-fall. Its range is comparable to Luigi's and IIRC it's good for combos.

Luigi's B-air can hit a standing Mario with the highest shorthop in the game. Now imagine that B-air hitting standing opponents more consistently and is faster overall (falling speed) while being only slightly weaker.

Full hop could use work, but his short hop is perfectly fine as is.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I can see why he would think diddy has a problem "coming back". Since he doesn't conventionally kill until a bit past the hundreds in percent, diddy often finds himself feeding the opponent rage, which is pretty problematic. He also struggles regaining stage control when put in a juggle/disadvantaged state so he can fall behind pretty easily on his last stock. He has to play an extremely solid and clean neutral throughout a match, which, to be fair, he does excel at doing.

Cloud, ZSS, Ryu, Ness, and to a lesser extent, Mewtwo and DK, have much more room for error and can all mount upsets more easily than Diddy.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm not sure if you're referring to SH or FH, but Doc's shorthop is damn good for a character having a B-air that has similiar frame data to Mario's that deal like 3% more.

You shouldn't be getting hit by a 13.44% move as much as you should with the likes of Luigi's F-air or moves in the same caliber (Fast, but weak). Doc's B-air not only is fast and lags a lot less than Luigi's, but it also deals a good chunk of damage and ACs as soon as you can fast-fall. Its range is comparable to Luigi's and IIRC it's good for combos.

Luigi's B-air can hit a standing Mario with the highest shorthop in the game. Now imagine that B-air hitting standing opponents more consistently and is faster overall (falling speed) while being only slightly weaker.

Full hop could use work, but his short hop is perfectly fine as is.

I wouldn't want to touch his Short Hop of course. Full Hop, on the other hand, needs a big change.

 

[Mario766]

With that good of a B-Air, that SH does work. Going back to Brawl made me notice that a lower SH helps if B-Airs are really good, being able to hit short characters with a rising B-Air is really fun.

 

[Emblem Lord]

While you're here - who does Cloud lose to? I never hear much about his poor matchups.

Hmmmm.

Maybe Sheik? But I don't think the match is terrible. Bowser actually does well. I legit think Cloud might lose now that I think about it. I think CF does ok. People are saying Megaman but I'm not so sure. He def has an easier time breaking MM's zone then alot of other chars thanks to that dair and that insane dash attack.

 

[Nu~]

Nair kinda punctures his zone too considering how massive it is.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

While you're here - who does Cloud lose to? I never hear much about his poor matchups.

With the right setup, I actually think that Mii Gunner could do pretty well against Cloud. Of course, this is just my theory so I'm not actually sure if it's true or not.

Fair, Up B 1, Grenade Launcher/Charge Shot (probably Grenade Launcher), bombs, missiles/flame pillar would be my personal set up to use. Mii Gunner absolutely loses up close to Cloud, but I think that Mii Gunner does a better job at walling/laming Cloud out, and preventing him from charging his Limit Gauge. Plus, I think that Mii Gunner has an excellent set of tools to edgeguard Cloud, since Up B 1 in particular shoots straight down and Cloud doesn't like that at all when he tries to recover low. Fair, Grenade Launcher, and his other specials offer Mii Gunner a very wide array of tools which could potentially allow him to capitalize on Cloud's weakness more effectively than other characters can.

Of course, Miis are very controversial, sooo... *shrugs*

 

[MachoCheeze]

Is Bowser able to keep him out with jab and f/dtilt?

 

[Jehtt]

Hmmmm.

Maybe Sheik? But I don't think the match is terrible. Bowser actually does well. I legit think Cloud might lose now that I think about it. I think CF does ok. People are saying Megaman but I'm not so sure. He def has an easier time breaking MM's zone then alot of other chars thanks to that dair and that insane dash attack.

Dair isn't as amazing at breaking Mega Man's zone as you'd first think. Having a transcendent projectile U-air allows MM to consistently hit him out of it. Of course, MM isn't always going to be able to hit him out of it but the threat of potentially taking 20 damage for trying to dair through his zone makes it risky.
Dash attack is annoying for sure though.

 

[meleebrawler]

I actually have two questions. You always hear from players and commentators about characters who perform worse when they are behind (i.e in Zero's recent interview he said Diddy really suffers when he is behind), so I'd really like to know how you guys would rate the top tiers in comeback potential. Who can make up stocks better, and who makes up percent better? Just really curious, that's all/

Comeback, the character: .

 

[Baby_Sneak]

In the recovery department, any character who can send Doc mostly horizontally with a powerful move (like Link's D-Smash 2 or Ganondorf's F-Tilt) will eat Doc around 40% to 60%; he doesn't have an answer for that, now, does he? In terms of getting gimped, Doc can't get gimped at all or he's guaranteed to be done for...unless the angle of the hit is like 60 degrees to 80 degrees, then he has the chance to survive. Now it applies to nearly everyone, but with Doc, like Mac, he can't take getting a single hit.

Doc doesn't have the benefit that characters like ZSS, Ryu, Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Fox or Falco have. His Down B, unlike their Side B or Down B attacks...well, it doesn't come back.

And now he as a character is held back by his own jumping height (alongside aerial and ground mobility). That is a terrible jumping height, if you think about it. He could do so much more if he could jump even higher than he can right now. In terms of combo departments, he's solid. If you are a character who can chain your own U-Smash into another U-Smash and 50/50 into another U-Smash, all after a Down Throw, that's actually not that bad.

That's all I can say.

Mashing down B away from the opponent and saving your jump is the option. Or double jumping and Up Bing when the opponent gets too close.

It's really really really situational and the doc has to be highly adaptive. He has the answers it's just hard to find and you have to be really creative to find them.

 

[Nysyr]

Comeback, the character: .

Only in terms of %. Getting back from a stock deficit is not quite as easy.

 

[Empire~]

Only in terms of %. Getting back from a stock deficit is not quite as easy.

Just to add to this, timing out a stock-behind Lucario (given the right character and stage) is an extremely strong strategy. E: Lucario without % cannot kill, and he also really struggles to hit mobile characters that avoid him due to his own poor mobility.

 

[TDK]

Only in terms of %. Getting back from a stock deficit is not quite as easy.

A friend of mine SD'd the first stock and lived till 180% the second. She ended up killing DK, a heavyweight character, at 47%.

 

[C0rvus]

Sounds like you let her live too long. That's rule #1 against Lucario; don't let him live to very high percent.

 

[|RK|]

A friend of mine SD'd the first stock and lived till 180% the second. She ended up killing DK, a heavyweight character, at 47%.

Yeah... if you give Lucario % on his second stock, you're making his comeback that much more likely.

 

[Nysyr]

Just to add to this, timing out a stock-behind Lucario (given the right character and stage) is an extremely strong strategy. E: Lucario without % cannot kill, and he also really struggles to hit mobile characters that avoid him due to his own poor mobility.

Basically this. Not sure why Nintendo gave the one character where circle camping is the most viable against some of the worst mobility stats in the game.

He really would need the Mewtwo treatment to become a somewhat consistent character.

Edit: you literally have no idea how glad I was to see that Jank AF move Finishing touch nerfed, for reasons such as exactly this.

 

[RDR7]

But that's my argument, this doesn't apply to DH in the same way as other low tiers. You can't just "learn the matchup" and say whelp, party's over. Sure, you can improve with experience against any character, but there's "learning the matchup" against someone like Diddy and "learning the matchup" against someone like Zelda. Different implications, different consequences; and Duck Hunt is closer to the former.



We are running out of characters to underrate.

I still think Jigglypuff is pretty underrated, but still one of the worst in the game so YMMV.

• Aerial mobility never goes out of style
• Her SHAD is incredible
• Solid 10% throws
• Nair is pretty great, and honestly all her aerials do a job well
• Great recovery and one of the better gimp games
• Rest is a frame-1-invincible legitimate kill move that can be done in the air
  • Nothing will ever make those words not one of the most valuable tools of any character in the game

I'm not arguing that Jigglypuff is actually high or mid tier, or even low. I just think the amount of hate the character has gotten from meme-like community sentiment (not unlike a certain frog) is unreasonable and not overlooking reality.

Jigglypuff is the most undertuned character. Undertuned, not flawed. She basically has no flaws, her numbers just sort of suck and don't make up for her weight + lack of disjoint enough. Honestly, this might not be a popular opinion, but I'm pretty sure that Jigglypuff would be fine if you just started improving random numbers in her kit. She's the only bottom tier who could be improved to high-tier purely by amping up her existing strengths a reasonable amount.

Also, keep in mind, literally very mainstream "jank" that was nerfed were vertical kill sequences that affected Jigglypuff's matchups more than any other character in the game. No one hated hoo-hah more than Jiggs, nor Luigi crap, nor Boost Kick being dialed to 11, nor Piston Punch, ect. The only one she didn't mind as much was Bayo, thanks to Rest making it super risky for both side.

Honestly, the main thing standing in Jigg's way is Cloud.

Bless your heart. But I have to say.
Let em be ignorant. lmao. It's funny that people think they know a character that is hardly seen in the competitive communtiy inside and out. Just shows the ignorance. Like you said I'm not saying she's high tier or good. The **** theorycrafting and bold statements against Puff has actually gotten me to encourage puff mains in the discord to not observe this thread at all, or even go on smashboards to discuss sm4sh puff because it will make them feel like ****. I respect your knowledge man. Maybe the truth will hit em someday~

 

[Deleted member]

Bless your heart. But I have to say.
Let em be ignorant. lmao. It's funny that people think they know a character that is hardly seen in the competitive communtiy inside and out. Just shows the ignorance. Like you said I'm not saying she's high tier or good. The **** theorycrafting and bold statements against Puff has actually gotten me to encourage puff mains in the discord to not observe this thread at all, or even go on smashboards to discuss sm4sh puff because it will make them feel like ****. I respect your knowledge man. Maybe the truth will hit em someday~

Agreed with this.

I know I'm not particularly known for being a believer in this character, but a while ago Roy mains in their social mentioned that they don't like being in this thread or any sort of open competitive discussion circle because of how much their character is looked on so poorly or bashed (mostly through misinformation). Not a Roy main, but it goes into my other point which applies to a more general perspective.

For a thread meant to be somewhere where others can go to see discussion about the current state of Smash 4's meta: its characters, tournament results, players, matchup spreads, etc., we seem to dwell on a lot of the same subjects, and veterans' opinions in here are more valued than others to the point where having some specific opinions can be snubbed out. I'm not saying anyone in here is bad for doing this, there are a lot of Intelligent posters on here that clearly know the game and the fundamentals of Smash and competitive fighting games in general.

But what I'm trying to say is, try to open your minds and attempt to learn about characters in the meta, no matter how obscure or underused they may be. You're obviously not going to encounter every single character in the game at a high level on a constant basis, but it makes discussion in here more interesting, less of something where a specific viewpoint is followed by many rather than going to investigate on their own. You'll at least have a bit in confidence in what you're saying eather han following the popular opinion. What's the point of being adamant in saying "wow this character is so trash" or "this character is a meme?". You wouldn't like it much either if your character was just written off as a joke time and time again.

We also really shouldn't be at the point where talking about is basically an unspoken taboo topic, but that's just me.

 

[juddy96]

Who's Your Pappy #1 (104 entrants) had 10 out of the 20 PR'd players in NorCal, plus Reno Nevada's finest, and Kesa from France! http://challonge.com/wyp1singles

1) Trevonte
2) Ito
3) Shaky
4) Erow
5) Rice
5) Zex
7) Villain
7) DSS
9) Sean
9) Kesa
9) TwicH
9) FuTure
13) Phancy
13) Mudomo
13) Nova!
13) Nabster

 

[Furret24]

Basically this. Not sure why Nintendo gave the one character where circle camping is the most viable against some of the worst mobility stats in the game.

He really would need the Mewtwo treatment to become a somewhat consistent character.

Edit: you literally have no idea how glad I was to see that Jank AF move Finishing touch nerfed, for reasons such as exactly this.

With top 20 air speed, merely below average ground speed, the best traction in the game, and solid acceleration, I find it a big stretch to say that Lucario has "some of the worst mobility stats in the game".

His feeling of being slow likely stems from his poor frame data, which is what makes it difficult to hit more mobile opponents (or even characters with just "average" mobility and/or frame data honestly) as Lucario.

 

[Blobface]

One unique thing about Puff that I think is overlooked a lot is her ability to hit 2-frame ledgegrabs. Three Long-lasting Forward-hitting aerials (N-air, F-air, and D-air), six jumps, and floaty physics are a scary combination.

 

[Kofu]

One unique thing about Puff that I think is overlooked a lot is her ability to hit 2-frame ledgegrabs. Three Long-lasting Forward-hitting aerials (N-air, F-air, and D-air), six jumps, and floaty physics are a scary combination.

This is a good strategy for anyone with a lingering aerial and relatively floaty air speed. Just hold your hitbox as long as possible at the ledge. Obviously it depends on which recoveries you're trying to hit but it's a good strategy that ought to be implemented more.

 

[Trifroze]

Would argue are very good at mounting comebacks

I can see why he would think diddy has a problem "coming back". Since he doesn't conventionally kill until a bit past the hundreds in percent, diddy often finds himself feeding the opponent rage, which is pretty problematic. He also struggles regaining stage control when put in a juggle/disadvantaged state so he can fall behind pretty easily on his last stock. He has to play an extremely solid and clean neutral throughout a match, which, to be fair, he does excel at doing.

Cloud, ZSS, Ryu, Ness, and to a lesser extent, Mewtwo and DK, have much more room for error and can all mount upsets more easily than Diddy.

ZSS can make comebacks but that doesn't mean she's good at playing from behind.

To make a comeback with her you have to take a risk, and against a shielding, mostly grounded opponent who doesn't approach because they're winning, the risks are going to be bigger and you'll likely end up losing even harder. The fact those risks end up being rewarding every now and then and can bring matches back from ridiculous scenarios doesn't mean it's reliable at all.

Most other characters have less comeback potential but more consistency in dealing with a winning (patient) opponent and their shield. i.e. Comebacks have nothing to do with kill power or setups, they have to do with the continuum between how good your character is at playing against an opponent who has changed their playstyle from losing into winning, whatever that might entail. Otherwise why would characters with good kill power ever be worse than anyone else?

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Agreed with this.

I know I'm not particularly known for being a believer in this character, but a while ago Roy mains in their social mentioned that they don't like being in this thread or any sort of open competitive discussion circle because of how much their character is looked on so poorly or bashed (mostly through misinformation). Not a Roy main, but it goes into my other point which applies to a more general perspective.

For a thread meant to be somewhere where others can go to see discussion about the current state of Smash 4's meta: its characters, tournament results, players, matchup spreads, etc., we seem to dwell on a lot of the same subjects, and veterans' opinions in here are more valued than others to the point where having some specific opinions can be snubbed out. I'm not saying anyone in here is bad for doing this, there are a lot of Intelligent posters on here that clearly know the game and the fundamentals of Smash and competitive fighting games in general.

But what I'm trying to say is, try to open your minds and attempt to learn about characters in the meta, no matter how obscure or underused they may be. You're obviously not going to encounter every single character in the game at a high level on a constant basis, but it makes discussion in here more interesting, less of something where a specific viewpoint is followed by many rather than going to investigate on their own. You'll at least have a bit in confidence in what you're saying eather han following the popular opinion. What's the point of being adamant in saying "wow this character is so trash" or "this character is a meme?". You wouldn't like it much either if your character was just written off as a joke time and time again.

We also really shouldn't be at the point where talking about is basically an unspoken taboo topic, but that's just me.

I'm the opposite, I left the Roy discord and I don't go on the Roy forums anymore because of all the insane **** I see on there. A good amount of people in the Roy social genuinely think Roy is high tier. There is thinking a character is underrated like I believe Charizard is, and then there is just being a character loyalist to the point where you are almost intentionally being dishonest with yourself. You shouldn't have to feel like one of your favorite characters is super competitively viable to enjoy them. There's nothing wrong with accepting a character has genuine, crippling flaws and still wanting to push them and their meta to the limit anyways.

I disagree with a lot of things ESAM says, but in his video whining about people who discredited Bayonetta players, I think he made a good point. Decide exactly what you want out of this game. Do you want to be the best in the world? The best at your locals? The best at your particular character of choice? Don't choose knowingly to play a garbage character and then ***** about them being garbage.

Personally I want to be the best I can be with my favorite characters. If I wanted to be *really* serious with this game, I wouldn't play Roy and Olimar at my locals, I'd play Diddy Kong and Cloud instead. And that's okay for me to do.

There's always going to be some optimism or pessimism when discussing how good characters are, but just try to keep it within the realm of reason you know? Those guys in the Roy forums who think he's some secret top tier that people just don't UNDERSTAND yet need to learn that ****. And remember, unless you are a top top player, which nobody who will read this is except for Dabuz and Trela because I know they lurk here, there ARE Jigglypuffs out there who can wreck you in this game.

 

[Jams.]

I honestly forgot existed. Has 2manycooks or any other done something notable since the Nairo fiasco? Even obscure characters like have done more recently.

He has continued to perform well locally, but at GOML he lost a close set to C3PO in winners, then lost to SuperGirlKels in losers and got 49th. Sonic is a really hard MU for Doc.

Alberta is kind of an isolated region, so IDK what notable event he'll attend next.

 

[Ffamran]

On the past topic about Charizard, there's a thread on Charizard's hitboxes: http://smashboards.com/threads/charizards-hitboxes.437711/. Some stuff is missing or incorrect like Dtilt, Bair, Fly, Flare Blitz maybe, Rock Smash's shrapnel, and Flamethrower just not being there. Also, might be missing armor and invincibility. So, if you're knowledgeable on Charizard or just want to talk about Charizard, being able to see Charizard's hitboxes might help out with discussions on Charizard.

Overall, Charizard's hitboxes look fine -- I don't play the character, so I'm not a good judge for that --, but there are some weird things. One, I just realized how Fly having a frame gap is kind of weird when it's a continuous motion like Bayonetta's Witch Twist and DK's Spinning Kong and not like Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop and Shulk's Air Slash. There's also its hitboxes being a bit small... I think the hitboxes are implying it's hitting with the wings, but it's only hitting in front and it's Smash; it's a game where there's can be a lot of characters and objects on the screen not Street Fighter where this move would pretty fine where the hitboxes are just in front since you're not really going to hit behind and in front. That being said, there are still moves that hit like that like Tatsumaki Senpukyaku in Street Fighter.

Unrelated to Charizard's hitboxes, I find it a bit weird that dash attack is a kick. Charizard's legs aren't exactly what you'd call long or flexible and it's a bit goofy looking to see Charizard ungracefully kick. With so many head hits, it could have had a headbutt or tackle from its "flying run" or perhaps a tail, wing, or claw attack. Similar case for Bowser who could have a variant of Koopa Klaw for an old reference like, from the developers: "We wanted to change his Side Special to be a command throw, but we still kept his old Side Special in." Granted, the kick does give Bowser a wrestling feel. Kind of reminds me of one of Alex's moves and Zangief's kicks.

Back to Fly, it not having auto-link angles can make it less consistent too... Auto-link angles aren't the end all, be all solution to multi-hits, as you've got Brawl Falco's Fair which had auto-link angles and even low SDI multiplier, x0.8, on its loop hits, but when it was a move that had 6 frame gaps between each hit and had no set knockback whatsoever on its loop hits, it was simply too slow and the knockback too inconsistent. It's just curious when they're not on some moves. Multi-hits on the ground don't need auto-links since there's "no inertia" like there is in the air where you're constantly moving at least downwards. Multi-hits that are downwards like Corrin, Fox, and Lucas's Dair work fine and so are the ones that are horizontal like the Pits, Pikachu, and Sonic's Fair, but when it comes to Uairs or upwards Specials, where you're falling while doing it or trying to move up and push up the opponent with you and also moving left or right, it can be really messy. Granted, there's only really 4 moves that have or might have this problem and it's Bowser's aerial Flying Fortress, Charizard's Fly, and Mega Man and Samus's Uair, but you can justify at least 3 of them. Bowser's aerial Flying Fortress hits hard on the first hit, so he wants you out so he can get to the back to the stage with the rest of the hits being safety nets -- a similar move in function to this could be argued as Falco and Fox's Fair in Melee --, however, it might have been fine if those hits were auto-links, so Bowser doesn't have to hope that grazing his opponents can deter them from countering back, Charizard's Fly seems more of a vertical recovery instead of this awesome, powerful, stylish finisher like Meta Knight, Roy -- more of a punish because of its armor --, Shulk, and ZSS's or a setup like Bayonetta's, and Mega Man's Uair is a projectile that lasts a long time and can potentially do a lot of damage, so it being able to auto-link or even cause significant knockback would basically break Air Shooter -- also similar case is Falco and Fox's Fair in Melee where if Fair consistently connected all of its hits, they'd able to do consistent ~30% with their Fairs and that happened in Brawl with Fox's Fair and Dair. Samus is the only oddball. Her Uair does have low startup, low recovery, low landing lag, and she can perform a ladder, albeit, with more difficulty than others since her Screw Attack mostly goes up instead of angled allowing her to try and catch someone moving out like Meta Knight and ZSS can. Samus's Uair doesn't really KO or is used to KO, but I don't know if that's because it gets used more often, so it stales much quicker or if it's just because of its lower angle and chance of dropping unlike Sheik's since on paper, its final hit is stronger in overall knockback than Sheik's. If it can KO, it could have just reduced knockback or damage on its last hit like Greninja's while having auto-link angles to keep it more as a juggle and setup which is what it's mostly used by Samus players. Once again, auto-link angles aren't the end solution to every multi-hit and there are reasons for moves not having them or working fine without them, but for some multi-hits that (curiously) don't have them, it might be fine for them to have auto-link angles to tighten up them and I'd only say Samus's Uair would be in that boat and its a good move overall despite its chance to drop people out.

 

[Peeko!]

what are people's opinion on megaman nowadays what kamemushi is doing in japan?

 

[Dabuz]

I'm the opposite, I left the Roy discord and I don't go on the Roy forums anymore because of all the insane **** I see on there. A good amount of people in the Roy social genuinely think Roy is high tier. There is thinking a character is underrated like I believe Charizard is, and then there is just being a character loyalist to the point where you are almost intentionally being dishonest with yourself. You shouldn't have to feel like one of your favorite characters is super competitively viable to enjoy them. There's nothing wrong with accepting a character has genuine, crippling flaws and still wanting to push them and their meta to the limit anyways.

I disagree with a lot of things ESAM says, but in his video whining about people who discredited Bayonetta players, I think he made a good point. Decide exactly what you want out of this game. Do you want to be the best in the world? The best at your locals? The best at your particular character of choice? Don't choose knowingly to play a garbage character and then ***** about them being garbage.

Personally I want to be the best I can be with my favorite characters. If I wanted to be *really* serious with this game, I wouldn't play Roy and Olimar at my locals, I'd play Diddy Kong and Cloud instead. And that's okay for me to do.

There's always going to be some optimism or pessimism when discussing how good characters are, but just try to keep it within the realm of reason you know? Those guys in the Roy forums who think he's some secret top tier that people just don't UNDERSTAND yet need to learn that ****. And remember, unless you are a top top player, which nobody who will read this is except for Dabuz and Trela because I know they lurk here, there ARE Jigglypuffs out there who can wreck you in this game.

Hi

 

[webbedspace]

Hmmmm.

Maybe Sheik? But I don't think the match is terrible. Bowser actually does well. I legit think Cloud might lose now that I think about it. I think CF does ok. People are saying Megaman but I'm not so sure. He def has an easier time breaking MM's zone then alot of other chars thanks to that dair and that insane dash attack.

See, here's what worries me: everytime someone asks who Cloud loses hard to, the answer is always "hmm, that's a real headscratcher" followed by one of Sheik, Diddy or Mewtwo (even as other people swear that they easily lose), and a few mid-tiers that are indisputably destroyed by Sheik. Meanwhile, it's agreed that he beats three top-tiers, Sonic, Mario and Rosalina, without a sweat. How sure can we be that this guy has any meaningful, relevant metagame checks?