Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[juddy96]

Yes, nairo is big example on this, he couldn't slow down against , to the point that he was eating smashes, compare this to Leo or Zero, who could slow the game and capitalize on that, if Nairo weren't getting the 0-death ladder combos against Alphicans.

ZeRo actually has fought Alphicans before (at Northwest Majors Drop Zone), I believe those vods are on youtube somewhere

 

[|RK|]

you know, if top players slowed the game down more, I think we would see much less upsets than we do now.

ZeRo vs Venom was a prime example. ZeRo slowed it all the way down. Venom... well.

 

[ARGHETH]

ZeRo actually has fought Alphicans before (at Northwest Majors Drop Zone), I believe those vods are on youtube somewhere

Here

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This is true but don't spread it around. Smash 4 is actually fun to watch at the moment.

?????? Watching people lose over dumb stuff they could've avoided is fun?

 

[itsmeMOB]

ZeRo vs Venom was a prime example. ZeRo slowed it all the way down. Venom... well.

Venom was playing really well up until he missed a few of his kill confirms, especially in the 2nd game, he could've taken the game if he didn't miss the TSRK on the punish.

I won't discredit ZeRo as well because this man has the ability to adapt to any situation so well.

 

[juddy96]

No disrespect to Manny, but if he won, I guarantee it wasn't by playing hype.

Good showing from Dath. Is it just me, or does he have a tendency to place exactly 4th? Also, respect to Saj for sticking with Bayo.

I mean what is more hype than spindashing in place for 3-5 seconds at a time (at one point they went to a wider overlay after it was lasted like 15 seconds)

 

[Macedonian]

Lol at Mario being number one. He looses to Rosaluma, cloud, Marth, DK, luigi, and Evidence is compiling that he could loose to m2 as well. Fox sheik and diddy Are not bad for Mario, and he does not loose any of his matchups that extremely, but he lacks any true Edge to make him top 3, and his mu spread is nothing compared to cloud and sheik.

Also I found it interesting how Leo, the best meta knight kept switching off of MK because he was coming up short, he arguably did better with Marth and cloud. i found this to kinda validate all the discussion like a week ago about meta knight being good but not great.

 

[Charoite]

Well is was funny how people jumped in Bayo Up-B in 1.1.5, and then get salty because they got 0-death, but not stopping to jump with an aerial attack above bayo, or people still letting go sheik to smashville , or eating little Mac smashes, or Ryu mains jump in with N-air against shields.

 

[Amadeus9]

Lol at Mario being number one. He looses to Rosaluma, cloud, Marth, DK, luigi, and Evidence is compiling that he could loose to m2 as well. Fox sheik and diddy Are not bad for Mario, and he does not loose any of his matchups that extremely, but he lacks any true Edge to make him top 3, and his mu spread is nothing compared to cloud and sheik.

Also I found it interesting how Leo, the best meta knight kept switching off of MK because he was coming up short, he arguably did better with Marth and cloud. i found this to kinda validate all the discussion like a week ago about meta knight being good but not great.

As a counter to this, Leo was playing into fighters that win against mk fairly well, or that he had little experience against. I dont think there are any diddy kongs or marios at high level in Mexico actually. And those are 2 matchups mk has to play in very deliberate ways to win, generally involving patient camping for both of them. Which Leo doesnt like doing at all.

 

[itsmeMOB]

Well is was funny how people jumped in Bayo Up-B in 1.1.5, and then get salty because they got 0-death, but not stopping to jump with an aerial attack above bayo, or people still letting go sheik to smashville , or eating little Mac smashes, or Ryu mains jump in with N-air against shields.

There are some things people just will keep letting people get away with. These are some of them.

Although, Ryu in the air isn't as optimal but he has damn good aerials. Ground is where it's at.

 

[Raziek]

I see people listing Corrin for me, but I didn't actually use Corrin at GOML.

Robin in all but 2 sets (a Cloud ditto and one game of Cloud vs Nairo's ZSS)

 

[Luco]

Oh wow, Xanos and Mekos right next to each other there, making Lucas look awesome. <3

In case anyone doesn't know of Xanos yet, he's a Lucas / Ness co-main formerly known as Kodystri (of whom you may have heard of from some time ago) and he's darn good. Also really happy to see Mekos beginning to place highly again. :D

But a sad weekend for Ness, I'm guessing Xanos didn't use him in bracket this time and no other notable high or top Ness mains seemed to be at the major tournaments.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Ok Pit talk time.

Since the game came out people have referred to the Pits as solid characters with all the tools to win. But if that is the case, why aren't they making a bigger splash? At first glance they seem to be more functional then say Ike another swordsman, but the results don't reflect that.

Pit and Dark Pit imo are ironically the "Ryu" type in this game. Jack-of-all trades, but a master of none. This would mean they can play any situation or position relatively well right? Hmm, the thing is though, I am not so sure about that. The results and the frame data do not reflect two characters that are good. I suppose good is subjective, but this is a competitive community and people want to see a return on their investment. So with that in mind let us say that good means "can top 8 at a regional with strong players, and do so consistently". With this thought in mind we can instantly disregard the Pits. There are a slew of characters that are scarier and more devastating. Not to mention much more consistent.

But what's the problem? They have decent range, solid burst options, disjointed hitboxes due to their blades, good recovery and nice KO power right? Well, lets look at the data. They seem to have solid buttons at first glance but in reality their grounded pokes are underwhelming and pretty darn unsafe. Pits D-tilt is frame 6 and -13 on SHIELD DROP?!? That is abysmal and it only does 6% on hit and leads to no guaranteed follow-ups. Contrast that to say Mewtwo who also has a 6 frame d-tilt but his is -3 on shield drop (crazy) and we get a clearer picture of how under tuned this move really is. Yes it has huge range for a tilt but it is not scary or threatening in anyway. It can lose to SH approaches like all dtilts and loses to shield as well which is uncharacteristic of most swordsman dtilts. Ike's dtilt is ONE FRAME slower, but safer and DOES lead to combos. It is -8 on shield drop. Nintendo has me scratching my head on this button here because the garbage data doesnt justify how small the reward is for the Pits.

What about f-tilt? Lots of people felt this was THE poke that all pokes should aspire too. It covers a good amount of space, decent damage, nice start-up time at 10 frames too. However it is also VERY unsafe at -15 on shield drop. It can kill decently well at the ledge. It kills Mario on FD, no DI around 110%. But then you have Ike and Marth. Ike's ftilt is slower at 13 frames but at also safer at -12 and does more shield pushback. Kills a bit earlier. About 5% sooner. Marth's ftilt....lolz. Frame 8. -10 on shield with tipper. Kills at 95% at the ledge of FD. Again Nintendo....I don't get it. Granted Pits ftilt has a ton of range, but that range doesnt do anything to mitigate how unsafe the button is. Its an ok punish, but Pits f-smash has the same start-up so any situation where you could ftilt you could f-smash instead for deadlier results.

Burst options in neutral is another category they receive praise for. A good dash attack and dash grab keeps foes guessing at mid range. While its true these options are speedy, they are not what I would call scary. D-throw leads to real combos at low percents, but no death conversions. Dash attack is fast and beats alot of stuff, but again it doesnt lead to anything. And of course it isnt safe. If thats the game you want to play, then you could play MK or Captain Falcon. They do that part of the neutral better AND have safer ground buttons.

Ok, well how about aerials? Overall they are solid actually, but Pit has the same problem Marth did before the buffs he got to his nair. Pit lacks flow from his SH air game to his ground game. He has nair and fair as auto cancels which definitely helps, but he cannot suddenly transition from an aerial based offense and go right into grounded mix-ups or pressure. This makes him more predictable. It makes him less threatening.

Specials are pretty good. Giving him a well rounded neutral game. He has a projectile, a reflector, and a super armored attack that lets him punish predictability. His projectile however isn't scary. It doesnt set up for anything. It can gimp opponents that are far off stage or annoy opponents that are on stage. That is about it. He cannot keep up constant pressure. His reflector does its job and allows him to stay in the game vs other projectile users. Solid option. But not game changing. Mewtwos reflector doubles as a command grab that does 12%. Something to think about. His side b lets him blow through an option in order to do decent damage. However its not particularly fast, is very unsafe, and doesn't kill well. Though Dark Pit's does kill better then Pit's.

So now onto recovery. Recovery is good as we all know. 3 jumps and a far reaching up b. If the Pit's aren't killed they should always make it back right? Yeah, but not without some broken limbs. See their up b has no hitbox. So its childs play to challenge. The Pit's are pretty easy prey to spike attempts, stage spikes if they mistime a tech and off stage harassment in general. Someone like Cloud can easily smack them with a dair through the stage.


IMO the only thing they really excel at is edgeguarding, but they arent even the best at that. Everything else is mediocre. At first glance it seems like they have all these solid tools. But when you inspect the data and then make direct comparisons to other similar tools in other characters arsenals, the Pit's fall short and look weaker and weaker by comparison.

They are the characters you pick to learn the game. Training wheels. They have no flaws that may cause you to lose a match, but they definitely don't have the juice that will help you win or allow you the creativity to develop your personal style. They are not dynamic enough or threatening enough. They have no niche. No trait they are dominant in. No incredible ability that is all their own. No Diddy banana control game, no Sheik godlike neutral and amazing bouncing fish, no ZSS zair and throw game, no Cloud limit system and limit cross slash and yeah.....no Ryu TSRK confirms that kill at ungodly low percents.

Even if you think they are good, there are just too many characters that can do what they do, but better/safer/faster/easier. And for me, thats evidence to show they just aren't good enough.

Good post. But it starts sounding like. "X has better disjoint footsies, Y has better dash mixups, Z has better edgeguarding... therefore Pit's not good." But that only proved he's middle of the road, not that he's bad.

If you want to say a char needs an at least semi-polarizing strength to be viable, then that's a different argument and one that isn't character -specific.

The reason I keep trying to pick up Pit again but dropping him again is for bugs: aerial side-b is unsafe on hit, ftilt has a dead spot right in front of him, remote-controlled arrows can't even reach the blast zone corners, and of course, why does a boy with wings have so much landing lag.

I miss his old up-b.

 

[FallofBrawl]

As a counter to this, Leo was playing into fighters that win against mk fairly well, or that he had little experience against. I dont think there are any diddy kongs or marios at high level in Mexico actually. And those are 2 matchups mk has to play in very deliberate ways to win, generally involving patient camping for both of them. Which Leo doesnt like doing at all.

IIRC There's a really good Diddy in Mexico (Icey I think) but yea I'll pull a Greninja main and say that Leo facing against the best of their respective characters (which both happened to be disadvantageous MU's for MK) did not help Leo at all. I think MK's exceptional, but not the top of the pack.

EDIT: What is Little Mac's status in the meta? I don't know how his MU's go with other top tiers but I'm confident in saying that he goes even with ZSS and Sheik, two big hitters of the meta.

 

[RonNewcomb]

So how about character Identities
What separates idenity wise
What can namco/nintendo do to make seen as an alternative or style choice rather than inferior

I love the Game Design game! Here goes...

Replace Link's grounded up-b with Shield Bash (Twilight Princess). Spin Attack was his least useful move, because even his smash attacks are safer, with multiple hitboxes, so no great loss there.

Shield Bash does zero damage, fixed weight-based KB, 3f startup, little range, unsafe on hit vs heavies, hits high missing a standing Kirby. Effectively a jab, it checks rush down esp from a SH.

Shield Bashing really needs an adult's size and weight to be effective; a toon kid Bashing your shin would rightly get punted across the room.

It gives Link a much needed answer to suffocating CQC without allowing him to deal fast damage or to encroach on Tink's mobility niche.

And For Glory sees 0% dmg and thanks Sakurai for nerfing Link.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I wish they could change a move entirely but that seems unlikely

The best they can do with this Link now is either: (from best to worst)
1. Make jumpsquat not 7 frames, maybe like 5

2. Give back jab 1 confirms

3. Lower FAF of jab 2 to like 10 F

4. Make nair so that it either (kills earlier than 160% or change knockback/angle to make it work as a confirm into other things)

5. Nothing

 

[Ffamran]

ftilt has a dead spot right in front of him

What "dead spot"?

Spoiler: FTILT

I'm serious. Do you mean in front and past their blades? That's just not knowing your range. If you mean pointblank, then I see nothing wrong. There's clearly a hitbox there. Smash games are often much, much more generous when it comes to hitbox placement even if you exclude disjoints. Makes sense since there can be multiple opponents coming from various angles rather than just one opponent who's usually in front of you. It would be ridiculous if hitboxes were like in Street Fighter.

remote-controlled arrows can't even reach the blast zone corners

64 Fox Blaster and Melee and Brawl Falco Blaster say hi. A projectile with that much range is not something you want anyone to suffer through, especially since the Pits can move their projectiles unlike Falco and Fox. Line of sight was their zoning range. Stage, Final Destination length? Sure. Past it to the blast zone? No. Get closer to the ledge then if you want to hit near the blast zone.

and of course, why does a boy with wings have so much landing lag.

This is a problem with the entire cast, especially at launch. It was also a problem in Brawl, except in reverse where aerials had too low of landing lag. For example, Zelda's Nair having 22 landing frames at launch compared to 12 in Brawl. Launch was a bit too much since her Nair isn't a monstrous move and Brawl would be insane in Smash 4. Now it's 19, closer to Melee's more reasonable landing lag of 18. Also, Sonic's 30 landing frames for Bair in Smash 4 to Brawl's 11. Last I checked, Sonic's Bair isn't broken, so why does it have 30 landing frames? Why not 15? It auto-cancels, but seriously.

I miss his old up-b.

The developers removed gliding. Could it have worked in Smash 4 or Smash in general without making characters who have them have really good horizontal recoveries? Maybe; I don't know.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Good post. But it starts sounding like. "X has better disjoint footsies, Y has better dash mixups, Z has better edgeguarding... therefore Pit's not good." But that only proved he's middle of the road, not that he's bad.

If you want to say a char needs an at least semi-polarizing strength to be viable, then that's a different argument and one that isn't character -specific.

The reason I keep trying to pick up Pit again but dropping him again is for bugs: aerial side-b is unsafe on hit, ftilt has a dead spot right in front of him, remote-controlled arrows can't even reach the blast zone corners, and of course, why does a boy with wings have so much landing lag.

I miss his old up-b.

When did I say they were bad?

Or did you simply infer that on your own?

Because as anyone that knows me by now and my style of posting....I'm pretty darn blunt and if I think a character sucks, I will not hesitate to say so.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's surprising to see so much 'controversy' about a character as consistent and solid as Mario. To think people see him as potentially the best character now is equally absurd to me as people thinking he may not be top 15. There was one person I know of that used to argue that Mario is bad but that was back in the 3DS days when VI was a thing and top tiers were a lot more broken than they are now. It's an outdated opinion that for some reason keeps being brought up whenever people talk about Mario. On the other hand, Ally winning GOML with Mario doesn't mean the character is better than we used to think. The man had a triple digit amount of people in his back cheering for him and after winning both Smash 4 doubles and Brawl singles he had all the momentum in the world to take that that tournament home. It's a well deserved victory for one of the best and most consistent players out there but it should not cloud our judgment over Mario: he has always been top 8 or at least top 10. Up until now he was never a top 5 contender though but with Bayonetta and Sheik nerfed he definitely has a claim for a spot up there now.

 

[Vyrnx]

Probably a bit preemptive, but it seems like there's been at least a slight shift in the meta towards the characters with a lot of "power". Cloud, Ryu, Marth, Mewtwo, and Fox in particular are characters I would consider powerful, and they have all been doing much better/have consistently done well recently. This isn't to say that they all dominate the meta, but there seems to be a growing place in the meta for these characters, with Marth as a strong example. The interesting thing here is the lack of throw combos across all of these characters. I feel like throw combos are not a significant sign of viability anymore, or the biggest hindrance that characters without them face.

Also, all this talk of there being contention for the title of best character between Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, Rosa, Sonic(?), and... Mario, but it pretty much seems like it's just Diddy. Dominating theory and dominating results.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It's hard to argue with Diddy being the best right now. Results speak for themselves. The point is that his counter-meta is still very young, and the other fighters close below him could very likely usurp the spot if people adapt to banana, or if camping proves to be effective against diddy in the long run.

 

[Radical Larry]

I wish they could change a move entirely but that seems unlikely

The best they can do with this Link now is either: (from best to worst)
1. Make jumpsquat not 7 frames, maybe like 5

2. Give back jab 1 confirms

3. Lower FAF of jab 2 to like 10 F

4. Make nair so that it either (kills earlier than 160% or change knockback/angle to make it work as a confirm into other things)

5. Nothing

Face reality dude, jab 1 confirms will never come back. He'd be one of the more overpowering characters in the series from that one thing alone. Secondly, a lower FAF on Jab 2 might be decent, but he has a great confirm off jab 2 already: Spin Attack. And about N-Air, I need to explain something to you.

First of all, saying that it kills at 160% means you're using it completely wrong. The attack can be used off stage as a decent and mostly safe edge-guarding tool, and if hit with the early hitboxes off stage, that 160% turns into around 20% to 80% depending on characters' recoveries. That and it's a really great tool for stage spiking due to its very long hitbox duration. If a Link player RAR N-Air'd towards the stage on an opponent going below for recovery, it's going to kill the opponent no matter which hitbox hits.

And you want to know what it can confirm to already? See, there is a late hit and a back hit of Link's N-Air. What happens when both of those happen? It's a beautiful thing called multiple confirms or tech chases, some needing rolls. Things like F-Smash and F-Tilt need a roll to work, whereas Link's Dash Attack is a great tech-chase opportunity out of his weakest hit of N-Air possible. And Spin Attack also works since it's pretty fast for an attack.

Link's N-Air is something of quite a marvel and should have a lot more study and practice, since it's a thing of beauty.

Now as for something that should change about Link? Well, I'd say if you give him 0.98 Aerial Mobility and 1.65 Grounded Dash Speed, you have your great Link and would never need Toon Link again. I'm serious on this, if you give Link's grounded mobility anywhere from 1.5 and up, you will have made Link potentially better than Toon Link. I wouldn't care actually.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Some character impressions cuz I'm bored and stuff

: bayo appears and seems to be quite viable right now since she still has her 30%-40% combos, but it also seems like as people get better at DIing and SDIing, her viability will be questionable. As of right now, she can do Rushdown and zone a bit with her bullet arts and bullet climax, but she'll probably be forced to be a keepaway character as time goes on. With witch twist being the bulk of her combo game and being heavily influenced by SDI, she seems to have an ominous foreshadow in her future. At least she still feels strong.

: I predict more of these guys will show up as nearly all the top tiers have short range on their normals (and have had their range shortened). Their CQC game is good enough to ward off brawlers and their range helps control the space and the match. Their punish games have either been buffed to be threatening (Marth I guess, Ike), or they just came out with dumb stuff (corrin, cloud). With the combo of their range, punish game, defensive options, and oppressiveness, I think we will see more swordsmen in results (,, and is TBD, though I think MK and robin have the best likelihood).

: he may struggle if the top appears more often. His mobility will net him neutral wins, but his range is always a obstacle. Though his recovery, damage potential, and overall solidness will keep him from ever falling out of top 10, his struggles with characters with more range will be really annoying for him to deal with and may keep him out of top 5.

 

[Yikarur]

Yes, nairo is big example on this, he couldn't slow down against , to the point that he was eating smashes, compare this to Leo or Zero, who could slow the game and capitalize on that, if Nairo weren't getting the 0-death ladder combos against Alphicans he would lose the set.

ZSS gameplay is very straightforward, she always has to jump to get her game rolling without grabbing and if you know an landing aerial is going to come you can smash through it with Little Mac. It's the same reason why it's a lot easier to powershield ZSS aerials than most other chars. She doesn't even have that landing/tomahawk > grab mix-up, she basically always lands with an aerial if you are close enough. That was pretty problematic for Nairo in that MU and Alphicans really deserved this one but Top tiers are top tiers for a reason. Sometimes they just get their auto-win. Especially with 2 stocks.


Mario arguably loses to Marth, Cloud, Rosalina, Yoshi and some people think DK and Mewtwo as well. Diddy and Sheik (arguable Top2) seem to be even. Thats a good case for Mario.

Top3 seem Diddy, Sheik and Cloud to me right now. Diddy has no real losing MU's, maybe a few harder one's but I don't think they are definitely "losing MU's". it's the exact same case for Cloud. No one really can point out Cloud having real losing MU's and his losing MUs that are arguable are not agreed on at all.
Thats the case for all 3 characters. Results support that claim.

Some people argue that their character wins the Sheik MU but well.. thats all talk I guess.

Diddy and Sheik arguably win against Cloud (super slightly) but have some harder match-ups while Cloud destroys a lot of the cast. Cloud is clearly the strongest character in this game right now. Diddy and Sheik might be better overall for tier lists purposes, but Cloud is the strongest character in my opinion.

 

[bc1910]

No-one is DI-ing Bayo's combos correctly. Randoms on For Glory are genuinely better at it than serious players because they tend to slam random directions and activate the huge SDI multipliers (though they are still bad at DI-ing Up B 2).

Her combos involving her normals are still intact but counterplay needs to develop before we can say whether she still has the big ladders.

 

[Radical Larry]

Some character impressions cuz I'm bored and stuff

: bayo appears and seems to be quite viable right now since she still has her 30%-40% combos, but it also seems like as people get better at DIing and SDIing, her viability will be questionable. As of right now, she can do Rushdown and zone a bit with her bullet arts and bullet climax, but she'll probably be forced to be a keepaway character as time goes on. With witch twist being the bulk of her combo game and being heavily influenced by SDI, she seems to have an ominous foreshadow in her future. At least she still feels strong.

: I predict more of these guys will show up as nearly all the top tiers have short range on their normals (and have had their range shortened). Their CQC game is good enough to ward off brawlers and their range helps control the space and the match. Their punish games have either been buffed to be threatening (Marth I guess, Ike), or they just came out with dumb stuff (corrin, cloud). With the combo of their range, punish game, defensive options, and oppressiveness, I think we will see more swordsmen in results (,, and is TBD, though I think MK and robin have the best likelihood).

: he may struggle if the top appears more often. His mobility will net him neutral wins, but his range is always a obstacle. Though his recovery, damage potential, and overall solidness will keep him from ever falling out of top 10, his struggles with characters with more range will be really annoying for him to deal with and may keep him out of top 5.

You basically got MK, Link and Robin in order there. MK has the best likelihood to get seen more in tournaments, then we have Link, who's just suddenly come up with a spike of top 16 and top 8 results everywhere, then Robin, who's still very obscure.

I'm going to talk about Cloud a lot later, though.

 

[Tizio Random]

Top3 seem Diddy, Sheik and Cloud to me right now. Diddy has no real losing MU's, maybe a few harder one's but I don't think they are definitely "losing MU's". it's the exact same case for Cloud. No one really can point out Cloud having real losing MU's and his losing MUs that are arguable are not agreed on at all.
Thats the case for all 3 characters. Results support that claim.

Some people argue that their character wins the Sheik MU but well.. thats all talk I guess.

Diddy and Sheik arguably win against Cloud (super slightly) but have some harder match-ups while Cloud destroys a lot of the cast. Cloud is clearly the strongest character in this game right now. Diddy and Sheik might be better overall for tier lists purposes, but Cloud is the strongest character in my opinion.

I agree with every word of this quote. The sheer power of Cloud is insane and I don't think he has any match-ups that can cause him troubles, although some are slightly in opponents advantage as you said. His short hop nair alone is an incredible tool and limit give him absurd mobility on top of his already good one. The fact that he's also extremely easy to use give him the status of best pocket chracter in the game.
Despite this, Diddy and Sheik are better just because of consistency, especially Diddy. I think that when people will start to exploit Sheik's lack of raw killing power we will see less of her. As of now, she's second best in the game, also boasting representation from some of the players in the world.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Diddy definitely has losing matchups

 

[BunbUn129]

Diddy definitely has losing matchups

Name them. Diddy's only possible losing MU's are 55-45's that he can definitely overcome.

 

[Smog Frog]

seems difficult in theory, but i havent seen much of it

in general gave the work yesterday, i dont know if it means anything

isnt relatively known for having a good mu?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

and give diddy a hard time.

Aside from that I guess his matchup spread is pretty solid right now.

 

[Nobie]

I saw mention that Mario doesn't count as an honest character because he has some ridiculous stuff, but then Falcon was mentioned as an example of a more honest character.

I don't want to bring up the whole honest vs. dishonest thing too much because it becomes code for "that which I think is too strong," but I feel like Falcon despite being a worse character has waaay more BS than Mario could ever hope for. Honest/dishonest, to me, has relatively little to do with how high a character actually is on the tier list, and much more to do with how their tools are skewed in terms of risk/reward/punishment. Key example is Lucario, who I think everyone considers to be jank city. He has a subpar neutral, but in a way that make the times he actually does land a Rage + Aura-boosted attack sting that much more. Think of one-hit KO moves in Pokemon, and how even though they're less accurate overall than most moves, they cause so much more salt when they do hit.

When comparing Mario and Falcon, and I understand this juxtaposition is limited in a lot of ways, both are similar but Falcon's reach and power seem so much more eye roll-inducing. Both have super safe back airs that have little landing lag and quick startup. However, Captain Falcon's kills much earlier, and it's also stuck to a character that has unusually long range and the dumbest dash grab in the entire game. The fact that you can whiff from across the screen and get punished for it feels a lot worse to me than Mario's up-close shenanigans, and even that is comparable to what Falcon has.

Falcon has a way worse disadvantaged state, but that feels more like the reward you get for defeating his weirdly powerful tools. You still have to beat them in the first place.

 

[Zelder]

Zinoto, arguably the second best Diddy player in the world, released a Diddy match up chart in March. He listed Sheik and Rosa as disadvantage (60-40), and Cloud, Luigi, Mega Man, Olimar, and Sonic as slight disadvantage (55-45). Now this was 1.14 era, so the Sheik matchup may have shifted around, and obviously we can't take one person's theory as gospel no matter how good they are at Smash4, but I think it's a good starting point for the discussion of whether or not Diddy has losing matchups. It's kind of interesting, for a thread that preaches the importance of competitive theory, we do often seem to straight up dismiss what top players are theorizing.

pic of Zinoto's matchup chart: http://i.imgur.com/DFlSrDo.png

As for the honest discussion: my worthless two cents, but I've always seen "honest" as a synonym for "are they annoying to fight" and/or "can they murder me real early on a stock". Mario is "honest" (he's nawwwwwwwwwwwt), Sonic/Ryu/MK/ZSS/etc. is "dishonest",

 

[my_T]

I saw mention that Mario doesn't count as an honest character because he has some ridiculous stuff, but then Falcon was mentioned as an example of a more honest character.

I don't want to bring up the whole honest vs. dishonest thing too much because it becomes code for "that which I think is too strong," but I feel like Falcon despite being a worse character has waaay more BS than Mario could ever hope for. Honest/dishonest, to me, has relatively little to do with how high a character actually is on the tier list, and much more to do with how their tools are skewed in terms of risk/reward/punishment. Key example is Lucario, who I think everyone considers to be jank city. He has a subpar neutral, but in a way that make the times he actually does land a Rage + Aura-boosted attack sting that much more. Think of one-hit KO moves in Pokemon, and how even though they're less accurate overall than most moves, they cause so much more salt when they do hit.

When comparing Mario and Falcon, and I understand this juxtaposition is limited in a lot of ways, both are similar but Falcon's reach and power seem so much more eye roll-inducing. Both have super safe back airs that have little landing lag and quick startup. However, Captain Falcon's kills much earlier, and it's also stuck to a character that has unusually long range and the dumbest dash grab in the entire game. The fact that you can whiff from across the screen and get punished for it feels a lot worse to me than Mario's up-close shenanigans, and even that is comparable to what Falcon has.

Falcon has a way worse disadvantaged state, but that feels more like the reward you get for defeating his weirdly powerful tools. You still have to beat them in the first place.

Totally agree with this

Personally, I actually enjoy playing against mario because none of his tools are overwhelming but can still be quite a challenge in skilled hands

 

[thehard]

When we can create a Mario player with Ally's fundamentals, Zenyou's combos, and ANTi's uhh, wildcardness, you're all doomed.

 

[Pazzo.]

Mario always seemed to me like the "Ryu" of this game (lol).

Solid all around with reasons to keep playing him after you've mastered the basics.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

That diddy chart looks spot on. Sheik and bayonetta are probably different now, but everything else looks about right.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I saw mention that Mario doesn't count as an honest character because he has some ridiculous stuff, but then Falcon was mentioned as an example of a more honest character.

I don't want to bring up the whole honest vs. dishonest thing too much because it becomes code for "that which I think is too strong," but I feel like Falcon despite being a worse character has waaay more BS than Mario could ever hope for. Honest/dishonest, to me, has relatively little to do with how high a character actually is on the tier list, and much more to do with how their tools are skewed in terms of risk/reward/punishment. Key example is Lucario, who I think everyone considers to be jank city. He has a subpar neutral, but in a way that make the times he actually does land a Rage + Aura-boosted attack sting that much more. Think of one-hit KO moves in Pokemon, and how even though they're less accurate overall than most moves, they cause so much more salt when they do hit.

When comparing Mario and Falcon, and I understand this juxtaposition is limited in a lot of ways, both are similar but Falcon's reach and power seem so much more eye roll-inducing. Both have super safe back airs that have little landing lag and quick startup. However, Captain Falcon's kills much earlier, and it's also stuck to a character that has unusually long range and the dumbest dash grab in the entire game. The fact that you can whiff from across the screen and get punished for it feels a lot worse to me than Mario's up-close shenanigans, and even that is comparable to what Falcon has.

Falcon has a way worse disadvantaged state, but that feels more like the reward you get for defeating his weirdly powerful tools. You still have to beat them in the first place.

The honesty discussion kills me sometimes. Every character ought to have something really strong about them or they're going to be bland, weak characters.

 

[Ninety]

It's kind of interesting, for a thread that preaches the importance of competitive theory, we do often seem to straight up dismiss what top players are theorizing.

TBH dismissing top players' opinions as nonsense if they disagree with our consensus is kinda this thread's bread and butter

 

[ARISTOS]

Honest vs dishonest is not and has never been important. It's just people trying to insert their personal emotions.

Diddy MU chart looks fine at a glance though I doubt the Sheik MU is that bad anymore