Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

Bowser main problem is the lack of useful aerials. Fair is decent at best, all the other are for hard reads.

9f uair is used for hard reads? Really?

Smooth Criminal

 

[S_B]

9f uair is used for hard reads? Really?

Smooth Criminal

Hitbox ain't that big and if Bowser is jumping at you from below, you're either gonna airdodge or drift/jump away from him.

You need to bait an airdodge to land it, and it doesn't AC even one bit and the landing lag sux.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Fair enough, but I still wouldn't classify that as something you'd need a hard read to use. Situational, definitely.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Megamang]

Ok, you need to have completed some sort of hard read (usually) to be in position to hit that uair anyways. And even then, yes it takes a read for it to not get airdodged or counter/dair'd by a competent opponnent.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Anyways, it seems like the basic problem is heavyweights have to struggle in neutral
to get to use their destructive advantage, and also their disadvantage is brutal minus their weight. Successful heavyweights in other games have some sort of oppressive neutral or advantage that makes up for the same weakness of bad mobility that naturally accompanies heavyweights (IF heavyweights were ever as mobile as anything lighter, they would be fundamentally better and would have to have a weaker moveset... which would be lame lol. Heavyweights should be less mobile, but I like things like magnets making their neutral unique and powerful in their own way.

 

[Greward]

9f uair is used for hard reads? Really?

Smooth Criminal

Can only be autocanceled on full hop and while being F9 it has very poor range.

Same with Bair, it's not a slow move but those two moves basically have bowser body range since he doesn't extend his limbs/head.

Bowser is very vulnerable in the air overall, if he full hops pretty much all air movement options, fast fall airdodge or aerial are very safe vs him unless purposefully baited. Up air intangibility on his head is hardly relevant since opponents will hit any other part of Bowser's body anyways. Up air main purpose is as a menace, fake it, bait something then punish the land with a grab (and kill him with the uthrow uair combo lol).

Fair actually has more range above bowser than Uair.

 

[C0rvus]

But... up throw > up air?
It does seem like a discount DK up air in a way. Although I don't know if DK gets head invul on his.

I'm definitely torn on which heavy to play. DK covers some MUs I don't really like (Mario, Sheik kinda) and he's better. But I like Bowser as a character more. What relevant matchups does Bowser do well in? I think that's the biggest determination of which heavy does the best. Zard, too. He seems like his high tier MUs are bad.

 

[S_B]

Fair enough, but I still wouldn't classify that as something you'd need a hard read to use. Situational, definitely.

Smooth Criminal

Don't get me wrong, it's not a BAD move (it's not DK's 6 frame Uair, but still). It comes out FAR faster than it did in previous SSB games, but Bowser's generally lousy aerial mobility means it's tough to get under an opponent and even if you do, they know what you're going to try to do.

 

[Dre89]

Longer range doesn't mean anything unless we're literally talking about a tether, and even Bowser's boost grab doesn't magically invalidate the hitboxes between him and his opponent as he tries to grab.

Even Bowser's pivot grab (which has great range) can be grabbed. I've had Sheik grab Bower's hand as it's stretching out behind him and Sheik got the grab instead of me.



In a perfect world, endlag is irrelevant, but the endlag on all of Bowser's grabs is terrible:
Grab / Active Frames of Grab / FAF after grab
Standing Grab 9-10 39
Dash Grab 10-11 48
Pivot Grab 11-12 46

DK's are a great deal better:
Standing Grab 8-9 31
Dash Grab 10-11 39
Pivot Grab 11-12 37

As for eating an Fsmash, if the character is fast enough, yeah, it'll happen on a whiffed grab. :\

I definitely think DK and Bowser are the two best heavies, but I'd say DK is still better, just off of results alone, but also because his airspeed just gives him much better options and his grab reward is still pretty amazing.

His offstage game is also WORLDS better than Bowser's, mainly thanks to that Bair...

The range makes a huge difference because you can dashgrab in neutral as a mix up. You can't do that as DK because you'd already have to be in CQC range.

Yeah DK is a lot better off-stage, but his disadvantage is worse, especially on the ledge.

 

[S_B]

But... up throw > up air?
It does seem like a discount DK up air in a way. Although I don't know if DK gets head invul on his.

DK's head is intangible on his Uair from frames 1-10.

The range makes a huge difference because you can dashgrab in neutral as a mix up. You can't do that as DK because you'd already have to be in CQC range.

Yeah DK is a lot better off-stage, but his disadvantage is worse, especially on the ledge.

Yes, Bowser can dash grab better, but Bowser needs a very good opening in order to do that and even his boost grab isn't going to guarantee the grab.

The ledge DEFINITELY sucks worse for DK, but Bowser doesn't want to be offstage either. I'd say their disadvantage is even, really, maybe even a bit more in DK's favor because Up+B comes out fast and DK can escape to a platform to cancel the lag or to a ledge with superior aerial mobility. Bowser's Up+B used on stage guarantees he'll eat an Fsmash. :\

 

[Fatmanonice]

I know others have already said it but you didn't really acknowledge it. Duck Hunt has way better results than his theory would suggest and outperforms somewhere like 1/3 of the cast.

Well, alright then. Moving on... Not sure what you're expecting if others pointed out and explained I was wrong on this.

 

[Ghostbone]

Bowser's fair and bair are pretty good, they're just slapped onto a massive 8 frames of jumpsquat.

If bowser had 4 frames of jumpsquat he'd probably jump (puns) two tiers lol.

6 frames of hard landing lag as well, they really punish heavies just for wanting to move around lol.

 

[Megamang]

I think bowser would be perfect with a buff to his walking acceleration. He should be a walking terror, and his normals and grab game allows for this... but his slow walk kinda makes a joke of this gameplan, requiring many dashes in with the grab/DA mixup mentioned earlier.


Speaking of which, lets make something clear for everyone. There is a 50/50 mixup between doing a dash attack or dash grab, present with many characters who have threatening dashgrabs. Captain falcon and MK are the poster boys for this mixup. This is different than the 50/50 situation that exists after some throws, where one has to guess their defensive option and basically have a choice between AD and anything else (preference and situation based) due to the ability to airdodge slightly early from hitlag. These are both referred to as 50/50s. but are different situations.


In general, I think the heavies should either have great walks, or some sort of retooled run that would allow some more options. I guess jump canceled stuff out of a run is typically decent for mixups from the heavies... but yea, bowser should have a better walk. Heavies are supposed to be imposing, and able to force you to make decisions based on their mere presence before they commit to a button.

Currently, the almost-heavies kinda fill this role to the point of invalidation, while the true heavies just... take damage more efficiently, which I guess they make up for by having a strong comeback ability, but it doesn't feel good when a truly skilled player is going to just not let you access you options, and is going to kill you.

Perhaps instead of ADing early from hitstun, heavies should be able to attack early from hitstun. Then you'd have to stop combos a little early to give them respect. As it is now, their AD isn't even a decent escape option, since they often end up landing with the massive endlag given to landing airdodges. It makes sense that when you are pummeling bowser, he should be able to throw out a hail mary hitbox... and if this was at the cost of their early airdodge, so be it.

Unfortunately, smash doesn't lend itself to complex mechanics like this. This is good for anyone trying to learn the game, but it is historically sad for the heavyweights. That said, this is definitely the best smash to be a heavyweight, excluding early game brawl Snake / DDD

 

[NairWizard]

Speaking of which, lets make something clear for everyone. There is a 50/50 mixup between doing a dash attack or dash grab, present with many characters who have threatening dashgrabs. Captain falcon and MK are the poster boys for this mixup. This is different than the 50/50 situation that exists after some throws, where one has to guess their defensive option and basically have a choice between AD and anything else (preference and situation based) due to the ability to airdodge slightly early from hitlag. These are both referred to as 50/50s. but are different situations.

This is not a 50/50 because both options are beaten by jump, retreat, roll behind, pivot grab, and some hitboxes.

50/50 means that if I try to dodge one option I get hit by the other, if you pick it. There's no situation in which I must get hit by dashgrab if I pick one option and dash attack if I pick another, because I have options available to me that beat both.

If my opponent dashes in, I don't have to play the dash attack vs. dash grab guessing game. I'm out of there.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why are you guys wasting your time talking about bad characters when you could also watch Taiheita beating up top tiers with Lucas?

 

[Dre89]

Why are you guys wasting your time talking about bad characters when you could also watch Taiheita beating up top tiers with Lucas?

Why do people talk about top tiers losing to non-tops as if it's a big deal.

It's been happening since Brawl. Player skill is way more important than characters how do people still not know this yet.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Why do people talk about top tiers losing to non-tops as if it's a big deal.

It's been happening since Brawl. Player skill is way more important than characters how do people still not know this yet.

Cause its cool brah

 

[Aunt Jemima]

and the bayo in there is 9B lol

 

[NotLiquid]

9B unfortunately dominated Taiheita after the bracket reset, but that was still a really damn good reset. He seemed to have figured out Bayonetta really well after that first round, and I hope to see more of that in the near future.

 

[Das Koopa]

Any noteworthy tournies this weekend?

 

[NotLiquid]

Any noteworthy tournies this weekend?

Frame One is this weekend but it's mostly of note because of Melee. Wizzrobe is attending for Smash 4 though.

 

[wpwood]

Any noteworthy tournies this weekend?

I know of TGC and Cyphacon

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Any noteworthy tournies this weekend?

The Arcadian in Michigan Saturday

 

[sedrf]

Any noteworthy tournies this weekend?

Kawaiicon: a hawaii tournie featuring void,larry lurr, and nakatt
TGC 7: texas 3 stock tournie featuring esam and mvd
GUMS 07: a 100+ new england monthly featuring pink fresh and marss
More of a melee weekend if you ask me

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Why do people talk about top tiers losing to non-tops as if it's a big deal.

It's been happening since Brawl. Player skill is way more important than characters how do people still not know this yet.

Because they still want a tier list based off of results to have meaning

 

[Djent]

Any noteworthy tournies this weekend?

Sumabato 9, starting in ~10 hours and streamed by SHI-Gaming. It's smaller than the last two in terms of entrants (~160 IIRC) but has the same, if not greater, level of talent in attendance.

There should be a priview going up soon, but on case there isn't:

Spoiler: Notable entrants (by characters)

Komorikiri, 9B, ikep
FILIP, Tatsutsuyo, Nasubi
Atelier, Ruri
Aki, Nasubi
Komorikiri
Aki
Komorikiri
Lucia
Shimitake
Earth
Ri-ma
Nojinko
Taiheita
Earth
Nasubi
HIKARU
RIN
Tea
Kie
You3 (Yusan)
Fuwa
HIKARU

 

[Hippieslayer]

E]

dude you wont see charizard in nationals because literally nobody plays Charizard at a high level but like m2k rn
Charizard has better mobility, WAY better offstage game and edgeguarding than Bowser, a lot better of a projectile (literally just an upgraded version), his mixup game is a LOT better than Bowser's, his attack range is generally equal, same with ko power, he has a better combo breaker, better landing options with 2 midair jumps, generally less landing lag, multiple b reversable moves, super armor moves, and a move that sends him all the way across the screen. What else do you want? Literally the only things Bowser has over Charizard is his upthrow kill confirm (which doesn't even work right with rage which characters like Bowser build up a lot), his command grab, and his playerbase.

An uthrow kill confirm is a big deal, so is also having a command grab that kills, so is also having better tilts (bowsers ftilt>zard ftilt and dtilt, bowsers utilt>zards despite being slower due to coverage, zards dtilt might beat bowsers, but who cares when bowsers f-tilt just pwns compared).

So is also having a great ****ing oos shield option in up-b (which hits all around thereby beating plenty of crossups and other crap which can be hard to punish elsewise, really now, its a reliable get off me attack, such attacks are crucial to be able to respond to pressure the, its a big deal).

So is also having superior damage racking off of throws, so is also having a jab which links into grab more reliably than zards, so is also being heavier and stronger in general.

Yes zards air game is superior. But zards air game still isnt good, most of the time he relies on his ground game where Bowser has him beat solidly. Yes Zard has better tools for avoiding juggles, but he still gets juggled. This is a big deal in favour of Zard tho. Rock smash isnt super but the super armor frames are really generous, compared to bowsers dair its much better, can be b-reversed etc.

Still kinda positive Bowser>Zard. Mainly because Zards pros over Bowser are still cons compared to most of the cast.

 

[Myran]

If we're going off the last tier list:

Worse:
Better:

It's a simple case of overrated/underrated if you want to get to the gist of it.

Obviously, a lot has changed in the last two patches but (aside from Mewtwo and Marth) a lot of these are still applicable.
To sum up my thoughts:

- Outclassed by a lot of characters that were once below them but are now better thanks to buffs to them/nerfs to top tiers.
- Characters with ho-hum results despite constant talks of their "potential" and "strategic depths."
- Characters whose results collapsed like a circus tent once their star players jumped ship.
- Perpetually overrated.

- Regularly underrated despite consistent results.
- Still have a presence despite regularly being lauded as god awful.
- Biggest winners of the latest buff dumps.
- The rising middle class thanks to nerfs to the top tiers.

Uhh what? Olimar's star players didn't jump ship. It's more like they don't travel to huge nationals out of state often. The only one I could think of is Rich Brown.

 

[Y2Kay]

Olimar's results are kind of like Greninja's where they seem nonexistent unless you actively look for them.

Both of them have results that are better than at first glance. If the only tourneys you watch are US nationals and super nationals, then you'll probably miss some characters.

 

[Myran]

Olimar does quite well in FL, if only I traveled more. Unfortunately money is a thing.

 

[Pazzo.]

I've heard R.O.B has good players in Florida too.

Is this true?

 

[S_B]

I think bowser would be perfect with a buff to his walking acceleration. He should be a walking terror, and his normals and grab game allows for this... but his slow walk kinda makes a joke of this gameplan, requiring many dashes in with the grab/DA mixup mentioned earlier.

I'd love for Bowser to have a better walk, especially when walking is a great option for him, it's just not fast enough.

Bowser was designed to be a character that wants to stay grounded or at least very close to the ground at all times. A better walk would make it a tad harder to pry off the stage in the first place so that'd be nice.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

8bitman is a notable ROB player from Florida. Beyond that? I got nothing.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Myran]

I've heard R.O.B has good players in Florida too.

Is this true?

Other than 8bitman I wouldn't say there are any other notable ones.

 

[bc1910]

Olimar's results are kind of like Greninja's where they seem nonexistent unless you actively look for them.

Both of them have results that are better than at first glance. If the only tourneys you watch are US nationals and super nationals, then you'll probably miss some characters.

Uh, BEAST 6?

25th at Pound is good too. And iStudy is the 2nd or 3rd PR'd player in the Netherlands iirc.

It's not hard to find non-low key results for Greninja. They're not comparable any more.

 

[arbustopachon]

An uthrow kill confirm is a big deal, so is also having a command grab that kills, so is also having better tilts (bowsers ftilt>zard ftilt and dtilt, bowsers utilt>zards despite being slower due to coverage, zards dtilt might beat bowsers, but who cares when bowsers f-tilt just pwns compared).

So is also having a great ****ing oos shield option in up-b (which hits all around thereby beating plenty of crossups and other crap which can be hard to punish elsewise, really now, its a reliable get off me attack, such attacks are crucial to be able to respond to pressure the, its a big deal).

So is also having superior damage racking off of throws, so is also having a jab which links into grab more reliably than zards, so is also being heavier and stronger in general.

Yes zards air game is superior. But zards air game still isnt good, most of the time he relies on his ground game where Bowser has him beat solidly. Yes Zard has better tools for avoiding juggles, but he still gets juggled. This is a big deal in favour of Zard tho. Rock smash isnt super but the super armor frames are really generous, compared to bowsers dair its much better, can be b-reversed etc.

Still kinda positive Bowser>Zard. Mainly because Zards pros over Bowser are still cons compared to most of the cast.

While i do agree on Bowser>Zard, i do not think Bowser beats Zard solidly in the ground game. I do think bowser's ground game is better but not by a large margin.

First of all Zard's ground mobility is way better than bowser's. Zard has faster rolls, a faster spotdodge, a better dash speed, a much better walk speed, a better initial dash, a better jumpsquat and a shorter skid animation. Also his hurtbox is significantly shorter while being roughly as wide as bowser's. Bowser does have a crawl tho, which zard wishes he had.

Zard's u-tilt is better than bowser's imo. It comes 2 frames earlier, its faf is 7 frames earlier, is way more disjointed (beats stuff like link's dair), kills way earlier due to it high kbg and combos better at low percents due to its lower bkb. sure it doesn't cover zard's front and back very well, but it at least shrinks his hurtbox plus he has his u-smash for for covering his front.

Also zard's jab2 to grab is stupidly good. mostly because zard's jab1 is better than bowsers (frame 4 vs frame 7, it does have less range but it still is one of the farthest reaching jabs) and the fact that it's lower kbg means that it is more reliable at higher percents (not that matters that much what with bowser ending lifes at 80%). Also if whiffed zard's grab is 5 frames safer. Also jab2 fly> jab bowser bomb.

Another grounded move that is better than bowser's is dash attack. Zard's is slightly weaker but hits 1 frame earlier, its hitbox lasts 1 frame longer and its faf is 16 frames shorter.

Bowsers f-tilt is way better than zard's tho, and so are his pivot and dash grab. His combos are way stronger and he is just scarier in general. Also bowsers bulk is way better than zard. His OOs is better, but zard's isn't exactly bad either. imo Bowsers killing at 80% out of a grab> every single one of zard's advantages.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

While i do agree on Bowser>Zard, i do not think Bowser beats Zard solidly in the ground game. I do think bowser's ground game is better but not by a large margin.

First of all Zard's ground mobility is way better than bowser's. Zard has faster rolls, a faster spotdodge, a better dash speed, a much better walk speed, a better initial dash, a better jumpsquat and a shorter skid animation. Also his hurtbox is significantly shorter while being roughly as wide as bowser's. Bowser does have a crawl tho, which zard wishes he had.

Zard's u-tilt is better than bowser's imo. It comes 2 frames earlier, its faf is 7 frames earlier, is way more disjointed (beats stuff like link's dair), kills way earlier due to it high kbg and combos better at low percents due to its lower bkb. sure it doesn't cover zard's front and back very well, but it at least shrinks his hurtbox plus he has his u-smash for for covering his front.

Also zard's jab2 to grab is stupidly good. mostly because zard's jab1 is better than bowsers (frame 4 vs frame 7, it does have less range but it still is one of the farthest reaching jabs) and the fact that it's lower kbg means that it is more reliable at higher percents (not that matters that much what with bowser ending lifes at 80%). Also if whiffed zard's grab is 5 frames safer. Also jab2 fly> jab bowser bomb.

Another grounded move that is better than bowser's is dash attack. Zard's is slightly weaker but hits 1 frame earlier, its hitbox lasts 1 frame longer and its faf is 16 frames shorter.

Bowsers f-tilt is way better than zard's tho, and so are his pivot and dash grab. His combos are way stronger and he is just scarier in general. Also bowsers bulk is way better than zard. His OOs is better, but zard's isn't exactly bad either. imo Bowsers killing at 80% out of a grab> every single one of zard's advantages.

Not sure if its true but I thought Charizard have a downthrow 50/50 at around 80 with up air or pp bair?

 

[Nobie]

I've noticed something about Mewtwo players, which is that they don't seem to have that harsh of an opinion of Bayonetta overall. Some will argue it's even, while others will say it certainly is not, but there's not a whole lot of anger towards her from M2 mains

I think this has to do with the way Mewtwo is designed. The common complaint about Bayonetta is that she forces you to play lame and defensive, because one mistake can get you killed. You have to be careful with your attacks, Witch Twist is Frame 4, beating out most things, etc. To a lot of characters, this is a significant change in how they approach the game, but to Mewtwos that's pretty much how they have to deal with every character. Being a glass cannon, the game is filled with Bayonettas, so to speak.

Given that Mewtwo is meant to be played with the threat of death being so imminent at all times, its toolset is also designed to compensate for this weakness. Mewtwo's game plan against Bayonetta, and the mind set that it's founded in, thus isn't so different compared to other dangerous characters.

 

[Y2Kay]

Uh, BEAST 6?

25th at Pound is good too. And iStudy is the 2nd or 3rd PR'd player in the Netherlands iirc.

It's not hard to find non-low key results for Greninja. They're not comparable any more.

Oh man I thought I put pre-POUND! I guess I forgot to put that in.

But people where acting like greninja was nonexistent before POUND, but that is not true.

 

[arbustopachon]

I don't think it is a true 50/50. Di'ng up and away should put them too far away from zard to reach on time. They should be able do airdodge by the time zard's on uair range, tho having to airdodge while above zard is a pretty scary situation.

If it is true the timing for pp bair to connect is still very strict plus d-throw gets screwed by rage.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I don't think it is a true 50/50. Di'ng up and away should put them too far away from zard to reach on time. They should be able do airdodge by the time zard's on uair range, tho having to airdodge while above zard is a pretty scary situation.

If it is true the timing for pp bair to connect is still very strict plus d-throw gets screwed by rage.

So does Bowsers upthrow kill confirm

Either way I should probably lab it out later when I have the time, if they can airdodge and the pp bair is true then it is a 33/33/33 which while not as good is still pretty damn scary, especially if its at like 80%