Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

... yes, his name is @Luigi player

Oh.

I only watched (if even that because stream kept dying on me) Top 8 nevermind me.

You know I SD'd 3 or 4 times in the 2 games we had. Istudy is very good he might've beaten me without that (I really don't want to john but SDing while a game is even and then twice at the end of both games (though he had the lead both times) really made it even easier for him) but it's not impossible that I could've won in my eyes. Also Beast was generally not perfectly set up because there was no sound at all on any setup but the stream one (some had gamepads but it was way too loud to notice them even at full volume), how in the world are you supposed to react to anything...
It's not an easy MU for Luigi but "Greninja destroying Luigi" goes a little too far, I don't think that's true.

iStudying has also beaten JMiller quite cleanly before so I think that there's good evidence of the MU being pretty bad for Luigi at this point, it might well be -2 at this point

 

[HoSmash4]

I'm pretty glad Bayonetta/Clouds never got the pleasure of playing on Delfino/Halberd.

 

[[BROF]]

I'm pretty glad Bayonetta/Clouds never got the pleasure of playing on Delfino/Halberd.

Indeed. We already have enough low ceilings as it is. Too bad we dont have any actual high ceiling stages that benefit horizontal killing.

 

[Halifax?]

People look at Dreamland 64 in Melee and think big stages would work in Smash 4 but Melee's speed makes big stages bareable. Kongo Jungle 64 is a problem even in Melee where characters are zooming through the air. In Smash 4 if someone camps the high platforms, the player trying to challenge has an even more difficult time because jumps are slower and take more commitment. So while Umbra Clock Tower might've provided more competitive opportunity, it would slow down the game.

Battlefield/Smashville/Lylat Cruise work so well cause the majority of platforms can be challenged on the ground or from short hop. The top platform of Battlefield is small and can only escape to lower ground. Kongo Jungle and Umbra Clock Tower you're full hopping (or even leaving the stage entirely) to challenge platforms and defenders can often escape to another high/advantageous platform.

The defense for UCT is eventually defenders must return to the stage with poor stage control. It's a solid defense of the competitive value of the stage. But it's not a fun thing to do or watch, and the core gameplay on UCT doesn't feel satisfying enough (big stage so there's less interaction) to justify.

So I personally agree with banning Kongo Jungle and Umbra Clock Tower not because of competitive aspects but gameplay / fun aspects.

 

[sedrf]

about bayo I notice this:
from reddit:

I don't have the same amount of hate for Bayo that a lot of players have, but I can't deny how frustrating the character is. When I think about what she can do and how she plays, and how she forces her opponent to play, it forces me to come to a realization:

Bayo is Smash 4's Ice Climbers.

She's not the without her flaws and bad MUs, but her amazing ability to kill and Witch Time force the opponent to play super defensively and carefully, taking no chances. You can beat her, but if you make one mistake playing against Bayo, you typically die. Just like the the Ice Climbers.

I think this is the most apt description of bayonetta. The psychological pressure bayo exerts is similar to that of the climbers.

 

[Radical Larry]

It's being done off a ledge trump, so the first hit is guaranteed. Whether it is possible to get out with a certain kind of DI is yet to be seen but then it would probably need to be DI Away, which for most characters would just be suicide give the height. Not to mention that if they manage to get back to ledge they wont have invulnerability either.
Very nice find, pretty much a guaranteed death with or without DI against most of the cast without top tier recoveries.

However, how hard is it to get some opponents on the ledge for the trump to happen? Very hard.
And considering angle, DI and damage, the combo can't work if the opponent DIs up and towards Meta Knight, or / considering directions. DI'ing away is definitely horrible DI, but DI'ing towards Meta Knight and upwards at the same time means that Meta Knight will not have enough reach to actually finish the combo, if not string into it.

From what I can see at the angle, this may seem to be the case, but I'll lab it out to see how well it can work. But again, you'd have to apply damage, DI and definitely the angle of the attack, as well as the knowledge of the angle completely, to find out the best solution.

But regardless of this, the ledge trump isn't as significant as people can think it will be. Yes, it's a good thing, but think of how rarely good players will get ledge-trumped or even fall victim to this.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I'm pretty glad Bayonetta/Clouds never got the pleasure of playing on Delfino/Halberd.

Me too, but I also said Wuhu and KJ 64 which have notoriously high ceilings with ladder having about a 21% difference at the lowest altitude.

 

[Sonicninja115]

@Fatmanonice They patched out Pikachus QAC on Umbra, even the omega version. I saw it mentioned in the patch notes thread.

 

[BunbUn129]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZqbwRgmz4s

Zero's Analysis of Meta Knight post-nerf.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

about bayo I notice this:
from reddit:

I think this is the most apt description of bayonetta. The psychological pressure bayo exerts is similar to that of the climbers.

I don't agree.

You can interact with her and get out of her combos earlier if you know how to DI out of them.

With Ice Climbers, you don't get to interact if they do it right. You mess up you die to Ice Climbers,. You mess up against Bayonetta, you might die but only if you put your controller on the ground and do nothing.

 

[Trifroze]

Wait, calling Pikachu underwhelming as a top threat is now considered circlejerk? I've said this since Sept/Oct:

Pikachu's weaknesses in my opinion are quite considerable, as he has to commit pretty hard for kills because of his lack of range and reliable setups. Combine this with his relatively low damage output per hit plus his light weight and in many scenarios after all the exchanges there's a decent chance Pikachu is the one dying first. That's really all that everything boils down to at the end.

Pikachu does have a good neutral and great edgeguarding capabilities to push the odds in his favor regardless, but I feel like you need creativity, good awareness and fast reactions to truly make up for Pikachu's problems and that takes a lot of effort (which many other characters also benefit from).

Pikachu's damage output after his low percent combos isn't particularly good, he still lacks both range and safety and his kill potential is below average, having to rely on reads and edgeguards to close off stocks. Such requirement for hard commitment to get anything started doesn't go well with how light Pikachu is, and we should be able to see with clarity that he isn't a top 5 character for these reasons. Results aren't necessary to prove this point but they certainly agree so far.

Also theory doesn't matter at all if it doesn't translate appropriately to the real world, and results don't matter at all if you don't look at why they turned out the way they did (brackets, players, what happened in the matches).

 

[C0rvus]

Oh good, ZeRo made a video on another character he doesn't play! Now everyone can use his opinions as their own despite them being largely unfounded. I'm glad!

I still dunno how to feel about new MK. The nerf was a nerf, and it's a pretty damn big nerf. But MK has a lot more than uair combos. While I always enjoy watching Tyrant, and his recent sets with VoiD were awesome, I can't help but be pessimistic about the character's present and future. SDI really messes him up, even his dash attack.

But noone is SDIing out of anything that isn't a rapid jab or PK Fire at this point, so it may take some time.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think Wuhu and Skyloft suffer much more because parts of the stage have hit boxes when flying around, occasionally randomly causing people to spontaneously survive things they never should have.

Only Skyloft in the way you're probably thinking about. Wuhu has exactly 3 damaging hazards that I'm aware of:

• On the way to the arena, the stage skims over the water. The water does 5% with light knockback at this point. (It won't kill even in sudden death, although it comes close.)
• The boat will meteor smash you for an instant kill when it's moving.
• A balloon floats up offstage when players are at the cliff. It explodes on contact for 10%.

The idea of a stage list influencing character viability should not be even slightly surprising to anyone who's given serious thought to the matter. After all, the entire concept of counterpicking stages depends on the fact that certain characters prefer certain stages. It stands to reason that the entire legal stage list can therefore favor one or more characters, whether it be by accident or by design. Really, given the popularity of relatively low-ceiling stages like Town & City and Dream Land, it's almost expected that vertical KO setups are so widespread among the top tiers. Consider:

• Sheik's 50/50 (nerfed)
• ZSS's ladder (nerfed?)
• Rosalina's uair
  
• Cloud's uair (kill or just an obnoxious juggle?)
• Meta Knight's ladder
• Bayonetta's ladder
• Diddy's hoo-hah (nerfed)
• Fox's usmash and uair

I would be highly interested in what would happen to the tier list if one or more high-ceiling stages found widespread acceptance. Umbra Clock Tower looked like the perfect candidate since it's Battlefield-sized minus the platforms, but it seems it's lost favor.

 

[MrListerTheSisterFister]

I don't agree.

You can interact with her and get out of her combos earlier if you know how to DI out of them.

With Ice Climbers, you don't get to interact if they do it right. You mess up you die to Ice Climbers,. You mess up against Bayonetta, you might die but only if you put your controller on the ground and do nothing.

You shouldn't be using that video as an example, that Bayonetta player didn't do most of the combos right. This video was posted in this thread not to long ago and another user explained what was wrong with it.

 

[Pancracio17]

Escaping bayonetta combos is somehwhat of a myth since she can cover every option but she has to guess right. You can mix up the di and she could miss but its like a 50/50.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You shouldn't be using that video as an example, that Bayonetta player didn't do most of the combos right. This video was posted in this thread not to long ago and another user explained what was wrong with it.

The point remains people are being really bad with dealing with her and you have actual options to get out of her stuff.

You don't get that with Ice Climbers when they do their thing.

 

[Amadeus9]

So WN2 and I spent over an hour drilling how exactly sdi affects mks uair. Well, we started out trying to see if reverse hit uair was viable off dash attack as a kill confirm. Basically what we concluded:

Dash attack never reliably connects to back hit uair with optimal di. It will connect sometimes. We think it has something to do with tumble hitbox interaction.

Utilt to uair is affected very little by di. PP utilt sets up di option select situation which would be a kill setup if sdi wasnt such a major factor. Basically you utilt, if they di behind you uair uair uair bair, if they di in front you uair uair uair upb. This worked on cloud around 45%

Now the really bad news to all this. The new sdi multiplier is beyond ridiculous. If you are prepared to react to uair with sdi, you will escape almost 100% of the time. It is really, really bad. It almost appeared that wn2 was teleporting out of uairs.

So yeah. If uair causes tumble it is extremely bad for anything that isnt immediately bairing or upbing. Tumble uair should never connect more than once if your opponent is competently sdiing.

On another note, it pisses me off bad that ZeRo insists on weighing in so premptively on a subject he has very little knowledge about to a community that takes first impressions so seriously. Its not cool, dude.

 

[Blobface]

Only Skyloft in the way you're probably thinking about. Wuhu has exactly 3 damaging hazards that I'm aware of:

• On the way to the arena, the stage skims over the water. The water does 5% with light knockback at this point. (It won't kill even in sudden death, although it comes close.)
• The boat will meteor smash you for an instant kill when it's moving.
• A balloon floats up offstage when players are at the cliff. It explodes on contact for 10%.

The idea of a stage list influencing character viability should not be even slightly surprising to anyone who's given serious thought to the matter. After all, the entire concept of counterpicking stages depends on the fact that certain characters prefer certain stages. It stands to reason that the entire legal stage list can therefore favor one or more characters, whether it be by accident or by design. Really, given the popularity of relatively low-ceiling stages like Town & City and Dream Land, it's almost expected that vertical KO setups are so widespread among the top tiers. Consider:

• Sheik's 50/50 (nerfed)
• ZSS's ladder (nerfed?)
• Rosalina's uair
  
• Cloud's uair (kill or just an obnoxious juggle?)
• Meta Knight's ladder
• Bayonetta's ladder
• Diddy's hoo-hah (nerfed)
• Fox's usmash and uair

I would be highly interested in what would happen to the tier list if one or more high-ceiling stages found widespread acceptance. Umbra Clock Tower looked like the perfect candidate since it's Battlefield-sized minus the platforms, but it seems it's lost favor.

My mistake, I was thinking of Pilotwings lol.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So WN2 and I spent over an hour drilling how exactly sdi affects mks uair. Well, we started out trying to see if reverse hit uair was viable off dash attack as a kill confirm. Basically what we concluded:

Dash attack never reliably connects to back hit uair with optimal di. It will connect sometimes. We think it has something to do with tumble hitbox interaction.

Utilt to uair is affected very little by di. PP utilt sets up di option select situation which would be a kill setup if sdi wasnt such a major factor. Basically you utilt, if they di behind you uair uair uair bair, if they di in front you uair uair uair upb. This worked on cloud around 45%

Now the really bad news to all this. The new sdi multiplier is beyond ridiculous. If you are prepared to react to uair with sdi, you will escape almost 100% of the time. It is really, really bad. It almost appeared that wn2 was teleporting out of uairs.

So yeah. If uair causes tumble it is extremely bad for anything that isnt immediately bairing or upbing. Tumble uair should never connect more than once if your opponent is competently sdiing.

On another note, it pisses me off bad that ZeRo insists on weighing in so premptively on a subject he has very little knowledge about to a community that takes first impressions so seriously. Its not cool, dude.

He has Tyrant in his region, and possibly at his house, so he probably asked him for input, or at least played with him.

 

[Big-Cat]

Oh good, ZeRo made a video on another character he doesn't play! Now everyone can use his opinions as their own despite them being largely unfounded. I'm glad!

Oh how his Bowser analysis pissed me off.

 

[Tri Knight]

Ok, I think people don't understand how Pikachu exactly works (maybe for the lack of representation?) I am a Pikachu main myself so I can tell you about his issues killing, I also play Mario so Ill make some comparisons here, Pikachu can kill extremely early with sweetspot usmash that comes out super fast, you just need a read or to make a punish, Pikachu can kill with a uthrow thunder if the opponent doesnt di, a good way to set this is grabbing them and immediately throwing them so you dont let them di, if they di backwards you can follow the di and do a rar thunder (same thing if they di towards) and if they di backward (backwards pikachu) you can just down throw and thunder without following any di as they will be just above you, Fsmash is safe if well spaced most of the time unless they power shield it, now thats a lot more kill options than Mario with the best of Marip being people mistaken getting near his upsmash chains or a pp usmash, also pikachus damage output is great combined with the many comboes he can make with attacks like utilt uair dthrow dthrow fair dair and even ftilt as a combo starter, Pikachu is a really solid overwhelming character that should get much more attention

I think everyones problem is the fact that his throw can't lead to a free kill. General consensus is Kill confirm > Smash attacks.

 

[Man Li Gi]

People look at Dreamland 64 in Melee and think big stages would work in Smash 4 but Melee's speed makes big stages bareable. Kongo Jungle 64 is a problem even in Melee where characters are zooming through the air. In Smash 4 if someone camps the high platforms, the player trying to challenge has an even more difficult time because jumps are slower and take more commitment. So while Umbra Clock Tower might've provided more competitive opportunity, it would slow down the game.

Battlefield/Smashville/Lylat Cruise work so well cause the majority of platforms can be challenged on the ground or from short hop. The top platform of Battlefield is small and can only escape to lower ground. Kongo Jungle and Umbra Clock Tower you're full hopping (or even leaving the stage entirely) to challenge platforms and defenders can often escape to another high/advantageous platform.

The defense for UCT is eventually defenders must return to the stage with poor stage control. It's a solid defense of the competitive value of the stage. But it's not a fun thing to do or watch, and the core gameplay on UCT doesn't feel satisfying enough (big stage so there's less interaction) to justify.

So I personally agree with banning Kongo Jungle and Umbra Clock Tower not because of competitive aspects but gameplay / fun aspects.

I dunno man. Taking stage advice where legal stages are 3 BF variants, FD, whatever the hell Poke Stadium is shouldn't apply here.

You're seriously saying in a competitive setting that you don't want a stage not because it's competitvely unviable, but your personal opinion of what categorizing as fun? I hate to say it, but that's not how it works.

If you're scared for timeouts, they can happen on any stage, anytime anywhere. It happens mainly on larger stages like DH, but I dont see that stage being banned soon.

The only problem I see is the fact the barrel saves you, and shoots you out invincible. But hey, dumb things happen with Randall saving and killing ya and don't get me started on how stupid things happen on Poke stadium.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

It's being done off a ledge trump, so the first hit is guaranteed. Whether it is possible to get out with a certain kind of DI is yet to be seen but then it would probably need to be DI Away, which for most characters would just be suicide give the height. Not to mention that if they manage to get back to ledge they wont have invulnerability either.
Very nice find, pretty much a guaranteed death with or without DI against most of the cast without top tier recoveries.

Pretty sure you regain your invulnerability for grabbing the ledge if you're hit offstage after grabbing the ledge. It's if you just wait there, let go, and try to recover again that you don't get your invulnerability back.

On the other hand though, Larry does actually have a bit of a point about getting this set up to actually happen. We really don't see a whole lot of successful ledge trumping at top level because players are more likely to buffer a get up option. So this set up comes down to whether or not you can successfully get the ledge trump, rather than if you'll hit them or not after a trump.

 

[John12346]

Escaping bayonetta combos is somehwhat of a myth since she can cover every option but she has to guess right. You can mix up the di and she could miss but its like a 50/50.

At the very least, you're putting Bayo in a lot of 50/50 situations, considering how many DIable Specials she's rocking, so you only need to get it right once out of 2-4 attempts to fall out. Plus, if you DO DI correctly and fall out, she's in big trouble because now she's going to have to deal with all that RCO lag she built up for herself while performing that combo.

The point remains people are being really bad with dealing with her and you have actual options to get out of her stuff.

You don't get that with Ice Climbers when they do their thing.

Another big distinction people aren't making between Bayonetta and Ice Climbers: you can actually hold shield against Bayo without risking much (her throws don't kill very well, and she lacks mid-high % throw conversions), whereas staying still for even a second against ICs is putting your entire stock at risk.

 

[Radical Larry]

If you're scared for timeouts, they can happen on any stage, anytime anywhere. It happens mainly on larger stages like DH, but I dont see that stage being banned soon.

Well, it might be banned once people realize that its "large blast zones" are a complete and utter fallacy and that the stage's blast zones are far shorter than what they believe. Like seriously, Duck Hunt has the lowest vertical blast zone of any stage in the game period, not including any stages with platforms that rise. That tree allows for extremely absurd deaths at extremely low damages from death combos or kill throws. Then you have the edges which can also do the same.

Considering that earlier in one of the older Competitive Impressions, I said that Link could kill Diddy Kong with an F-Smash at 26% at the edge. It can still happen, and things like that suck like hell. Of course, it was rage that helped, but it still doesn't mean Diddy could die from Link's F-Smash (and since nothing's been changed between the attack and Diddy's weight, the damage could be the same).

Oh, and can I mention that this stage would absolutely be great for Bayonetta since she can literally just do her Smash Direct combo and you're done if she gets you at the tree? And let's not forget circle camping...like we need that kind of stage even more.

How this stage is still legal I won't understand; I know the benefits of the stage, but I can't deny the disadvantages.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think everyones problem is the fact that his throw can't lead to a free kill. General consensus is Kill confirm > Smash attacks.

Would you please care to mention the kill confirms that are better than Pikachus on top tiers? If so, I would also like that you do a list of them from best to worst

 

[Y2Kay]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2016032304730454

Even though it's a rage quit I found this moment telling of the how a lot of people feel when fighting bayonetta.

I hope this isn't where our meta is going

 

[Aaron1997]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sofrrj Zero is not going to Pound. Welp, Going have to wait even longer for the "true" 1.1.5 top level gameplay.

 

[Rizen]

Another big distinction people aren't making between Bayonetta and Ice Climbers: you can actually hold shield against Bayo without risking much (her throws don't kill very well, and she lacks mid-high % throw conversions), whereas staying still for even a second against ICs is putting your entire stock at risk.

Isn't her Fthrow a decent kill throw?

 

[Trifroze]

You always have to draw some sort of a personal line on what is and isn't acceptable when it comes to stages. The reason for not legalizing Port Town but still arguing for Delfino, Wuhu, Skyloft and Halberd tends to be that Port Town has hazards that potentially kill you at 30% while the others don't, yet those hazards aren't fundamentally any more random than the ones on Halberd or the transformation dynamics on the other three stages. One can only conclude that Port Town gets banned because the dynamics there can have too much of an effect on the outcome of the match, but then, who decides what constitutes as "too much of an effect on the outcome of the match"?

As soon as the stage is dynamic in any way, it adds an effective third party to the match, and the implications of that are obvious when talking randomness. The platform alone on Smashville has elements of this, it quantifies the advantage/disadvantage of getting/losing stage control at the right time which always involves randomness to begin with. Obviously Smashville is accepted by everyone, but I find it naive from either side of the whole 5 vs 13 stages argument to claim that they're somehow more objective or valid. On top of that, why is circle camping bad? Why are walkoffs bad? It doesn't matter what side you support, the reasoning is always related to what you do and don't like as long as we don't allow every single stage and obviously **** that ****.

i have no idea whether this is a red topic or not since they enlist "ruleset preference discussion", but only the preference word is in italics for emphasis

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Isn't her Fthrow a decent kill throw?

at around 180

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Isn't her Fthrow a decent kill throw?

Not really, gotta wait til way higher like 160-180.

 

[sedrf]

To be honest I think cloud might be more of a problem to the avg tournie/player than bayo in the comingmeta.
On another note: 3 decent tournies are running this weekend
first is 2gg the fow saga: https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggt-fow-saga which has around 105 attendees and feature for,k9,void and nairo,etc.
2nd is outfoxx'd: featuring ally,mr r, anti, and mew2king, and zinoto
https://smash.gg/tournament/outfoxx-d-1/detail

lastly is a regional in texas with 100+ members:
Battlegrounds 2
https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-united-presents-battlegrounds-2
featuring the best players in texas

 

[juddy96]

To be honest I think cloud might be more of a problem to the avg tournie/player than bayo in the comingmeta.
On another note: 3 decent tournies are running this weekend
first is 2gg the fow saga: https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggt-fow-saga which has around 105 attendees and feature for,k9,void and nairo,etc.
2nd is outfoxx'd: featuring ally,mr r, anti, and mew2king, and zinoto
https://smash.gg/tournament/outfoxx-d-1/detail

lastly is a regional in texas with 100+ members:
Battlegrounds 2
https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-united-presents-battlegrounds-2
featuring the best players in texas

FOW Saga is going to have a lot more people than that. Probably 200+. Smashers are lazy at signing up for 2GGT events. Mexico is probably going to have the biggest one of the weekend, with 288 smash 4 players at The Arena 2016.

 

[Halifax?]

I dunno man. Taking stage advice where legal stages are 3 BF variants, FD, whatever the hell Poke Stadium is shouldn't apply here.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

You're seriously saying in a competitive setting that you don't want a stage not because it's competitvely unviable, but your personal opinion of what categorizing as fun? I hate to say it, but that's not how it works.

Essentially, yes. That's what I'm saying. From a game design aspect and not a competitive aspect. Because there is definitely a balance to strike between how fun a game is and how competitive it is. As a player and viewer who enjoys the interactions between players, I like stages that promote these interactions. UCT and KJ64 promote less interactions. Ever seen people box outside of a ring? If they get in a bad position all they have to do is back away. In a boxing ring you can only run so far, which encourages interactions.

This is NOT to say I can't find defensive play entertaining. I enjoy defensive play in boxing, hell I enjoy watching Mayweather. BUT, defensive play in a ring takes WAY more skill than in open field. When I see someone playing defensively on KJ64, it's not entertaining cause it takes no skill to run away on KJ64. But a timeout on Smashville or Town & City? That **** takes skill son.

If you're scared for timeouts, they can happen on any stage, anytime anywhere. It happens mainly on larger stages like DH, but I dont see that stage being banned soon.

I don't care about timeouts if the core gameplay is satisfying. Brain dead camping is just as annoying as any other brain dead strategy though.

The only problem I see is the fact the barrel saves you, and shoots you out invincible. But hey, dumb things happen with Randall saving and killing ya and don't get me started on how stupid things happen on Poke stadium.

I think that you think I was saying melee has a better stage list. I only mention melee because Melee's physics make the large stage archetype more bareable than Smash 4's physics. Melee's stage list is far from perfect.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

On another note: 3 decent tournies are running this weekend
first is 2gg the fow saga: https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggt-fow-saga which has around 105 attendees and feature for,k9,void and nairo,etc.
2nd is outfoxx'd: featuring ally,mr r, anti, and mew2king, and zinoto
https://smash.gg/tournament/outfoxx-d-1/detail

lastly is a regional in texas with 100+ members:
Battlegrounds 2
https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-united-presents-battlegrounds-2
featuring the best players in texas

FOW Saga is going to have a lot more people than that. Probably 200+. Smashers are lazy at signing up for 2GGT events. Mexico is probably going to have the biggest one of the weekend, with 288 smash 4 players at The Arena 2016.

Germany also has a major tournament this weekend so there's going to be a ton of interesting results to digest. The timing couldn't be better for fresh results.

 

[HFlash]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2016032304730454

Even though it's a rage quit I found this moment telling of the how a lot of people feel when fighting bayonetta.

I hope this isn't where our meta is going

That guy is either not very good, not good at handling tournament pressure, or tilted, because he side B'd right into Bayo. What did he expect? For Pink Fresh to not punish optimally? People need to learn to play more defensively vs Bayo because she can have a hard time getting in an opponent, particularly if they stay in shield but of course, playing defensively or slow is seen as "cancerous" or "boring" to the general smash community.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

That guy is either not very good, not good at handling tournament pressure, or tilted, because he side B'd right into Bayo. What did he expect? For Pink Fresh to not punish optimally? People need to learn to play more defensively vs Bayo because she can have a hard time getting in an opponent, particularly if they stay in shield but of course, playing defensively or slow is seen as "cancerous" or "boring" to the general smash community.

I know Osiris. He's in the discord chat where I am in. He's actually not a bad person at all. It's just a lot of us are frustrated by bayonettas combos, and that isn't a good excuse for whining. At least he didn't throw a temper tantrum.

 

[[BROF]]

Dealing with is frustrating. You need to win neutral way more times than her, you need to put way more work than her, and you are forced to turtle. Unless you're a patience-oriented player, I can see how losing a stock just because you lost neutral 1-3 times can get to your nerves real fast.

All you can do is wait for your opportunity to strike, and no, don't complain about witch time. Tomahawks are good for witch time landings or WT baits. If your character has good throw followups or throw confirms then just be patient and wait for your turn. Bayonetta cant do much against your shield.

Im just preaching to the choir, but yeah there's nothing wrong with playing "lame". You're playing against Bayonetta, so what other choice do you have?

 

[Smog Frog]

i think it's worth noting that its INCREDIBLY hard to get a meaningful punish on spin dash, even if it's witch timed. if you do a SDJ the moment you get witch timed and spring, struggles to get more than a measly 9% uair. go figure. are there any other moves than **** with witch time like that? i think flare blitz might have some wonky interactions with it since it's a two hit move that's very powerful.